I figure that since Team Faceless are close to qualifying for The Summit 6 and have players such as Black and iceiceice that as both very popular within the community, I figured it made sense to have somewhere to talk about them. What first seemed like a joke team (with iceiceice having said he would not want to play with Black again and Black basically jumping around to different teams each month) has turned out to be quite competitive in SEA, and might be a force to be reckoned with.
I just copied the design of other team pages for this one. Since I saw other users use the HTML-code Liquipedia reference in the team pages, I thought I could as well. However, it seems only admins are able to add this. So far, I just put a picture for the roster
Either way, to add my input, I'll quote another post of mine from their most recent game against Power Gaming in The Summit 6 SEA qualifiers:
On October 15 2016 21:17 Asjo wrote: Yes, in that game two, where Team Faceless lost, I was watching them lose fights and saw Black being ineffective and caught out of position, and I wondered: "Shit, is Black back to this". But in reality, their draft just seemed hopeless. They didn't have many ways to effectively fight around the line-up of Power Gaming without being far ahead. They would take too long to bring anyone down, which give only give time for slarder and juggernaut to focus a specific hero and for OD to steal a lot of intelligence. The global silence would giver Power Gaming even more time to do such.
I really like how Team Faceless are looking. The thing is, Black is not particularly good at reacting to his opponents and playing without information. What he truly excels at is making full use of his hero offensively when he has full information. He can really push things to the limit, and we saw that when he played slark and constantly found the right jumps and give Team Faceless much more of an edge than you would expect. He picked his focus targets very well and seemed to maximize his damage (and his team's kills) in every fight. Of course, he also roams around the map quite efficiently.
It was hard to watch Black on Fnatic, because often he would not participate in important teamfights and just seemed like he was on the same page as the rest of the team. Yes, Black is a "lone farmer", but you need to coordinate your play with him and make full use of him. Without having a team to play around, he will make mistakes and not get much done. You will miss out on his best qualities. That said, despite Team Faceless looking very promising, I can definitely imagine how they will be rattled by better teams. They haven't faced impressive opposition so far, and you can see how they don't react well to certain things. If they are pressured, they might not be able to include Black in their play as much, and they will fall apart. In PDCup, though, they played against WG and a Meepo that was getting out of control and the match was beginning to slip for them. But they reactive very decisively and took back control. Granted, their line-up was really good for countering Meepo, but they definitely reacted much better than many other teams I have seen.
5pos not much of a concern, ice3 always delivers, black is the biggest issue here along with (pubstar I assume) mid . Will be cool if he adapted to the game, even on his top heroes the play styles are different on the new patches since he played on T1 teams
Operational costs, including the $4,800 monthly rent for the four- bedroom, four-storey town house, are covered by Mr Koh[iceiceice], out of his earnings from his time in China as well as his income from streaming.
Wow, that's awesome from iceiceice. So, he knew all along he was just saving up to be able to live out his dream of a SEA team
It does make you feel like they're living on borrowed time. Let's hope they win something before too long. I wonder if they will win the SEA Boston Major regionals. They definitely have a good shot, but despite their recent form, I still don't feel they are favourites for some reason. I guess there's a good chance Fnatic will take it.
Well that's the way it has to go in the beginning if you set up a new team, the money has to come from someone's pocket. But if they perform well, show some level of continuity and put some effort into contacting sponsors, I would imagine they can get to a point where Icex3 doesn't have to pay for stuff himself.
Interesting to see how teams like Faceless, NP, OG etc. develop as far as the sponsorships go.
Operational costs, including the $4,800 monthly rent for the four- bedroom, four-storey town house, are covered by Mr Koh[iceiceice], out of his earnings from his time in China as well as his income from streaming.
They play rly good - I am surprised. Their drafting is the most impressive and JabZ is playing a really dominant mid. Will be interesting how they compare to non-SEA teams.
Jabz/black's heroes are the 4/5 pick for 11/12 games. That lone game was a 2nd pick FV, which could have easily been played by iceiceice. Similarly there was a game with 3rd pick Morph, which was played by iceiceice instead.
Good thing about this is that they don't get caught with their cores getting hard countered. Their drafts seem to allow them to adapt in many ways. Very flexible openings.
I wish I could have 5 team Flairs: EG, NP, Liquid, Faceless, DC, and I also like VP, but not a fan yet. Edit: It's 6, forgot about Wings. Also like the new Newbee, cool drafts and stuff.
On November 01 2016 01:59 Pontual wrote: I wish I could have 5 team Flairs: EG, NP, Liquid, Faceless, DC, and I also like VP, but not a fan yet. Edit: It's 6, forgot about Wings. Also like the new Newbee, cool drafts and stuff.
Love the enthusiasm
I like a lot of teams too, but I must admit I'm often stuck supporting certain nations. I have always rooted for Germany, Italy and Russia in all sports, so I wanted them to succeed in Dota as well. When you have a fairy tale team like Team Faceless, though, with nice guys like iceiceice and Black behind the team, it's hard not to support them, though.
On November 01 2016 01:59 Pontual wrote: I wish I could have 5 team Flairs: EG, NP, Liquid, Faceless, DC, and I also like VP, but not a fan yet. Edit: It's 6, forgot about Wings. Also like the new Newbee, cool drafts and stuff.
Love the enthusiasm
I like a lot of teams too, but I must admit I'm often stuck supporting certain nations. I have always rooted for Germany, Italy and Russia in all sports, so I wanted them to succeed in Dota as well. When you have a fairy tale team like Team Faceless, though, with nice guys like iceiceice and Black behind the team, it's hard not to support them, though.
I mean Black is German so you're still on that track.
Faceless really found a gem in their mid player. Any player who realise pugna is actually a viable mid definitely has a good brain on his head. No wonder he was capable of playing support in the past too. This guy is going to be huge
Their team fight/skirmishes are quite scary. A joy to watch.
As mentioned earlier, I also like their draft approach. They don't get outdrafted often. Yesterday game 3 vs MVP was an exception. That clock 3rd pick was experimental and made no sense, rightfully punished by an Am pick. That faceless were still in the game boiled down mainly to MVP doing MVP things. A hard farming AM would have single handily won the game.
Hmm should i change my flair to faceless? I obviously support them, but DK2014 was the best team that should have been but never was. Picked and did whatever they wanted. Faceless while having very flexible 1/2, have a fairly rigid 3/4/5.
I have similar situation. For the region and the players I support Faceless. However, I like Wings' playstyle and they are the spiritual successor of DK2014. I just recently changed my flair so I will stick for Wings for now
think I haven't been able to catch a single game from them. What's a good series or two to watch if I want to get a general idea of their playstyle, strengths etc?
On November 15 2016 21:07 Shergal wrote: think I haven't been able to catch a single game from them. What's a good series or two to watch if I want to get a general idea of their playstyle, strengths etc?
vs Fnatic
vs Power Gaming
vs MVP
typically faceless like to run a dual lane with Iceiceice and Xy and Black gets sacced a bit but they cover for him really well if he needs to catch up. I think they're on a 21 or 23 series win streak or something like that with only 2 or 3 losses in their last 25 games.
And they draft a ton of Warlock / Drow and have since the team was formed.
On November 15 2016 21:07 Shergal wrote: think I haven't been able to catch a single game from them. What's a good series or two to watch if I want to get a general idea of their playstyle, strengths etc?
typically faceless like to run a dual lane with Iceiceice and Xy and Black gets sacced a bit but they cover for him really well if he needs to catch up. I think they're on a 21 or 23 series win streak or something like that with only 2 or 3 losses in their last 25 games.
And they draft a ton of Warlock / Drow and have since the team was formed.
On November 15 2016 21:07 Shergal wrote: think I haven't been able to catch a single game from them. What's a good series or two to watch if I want to get a general idea of their playstyle, strengths etc?
I asked on Reddit for you, and one guy gave the following reply:
On November 15 2016 19:05 CET towards_zero wrote: Mineski vs Faceless, Boston SEA Qualifier Winner Finals. Both games are very intense.
That would be this game (and the one above it in the list).
So, first big series for Faceless now over, with them losing 1-2 to EG. I thought they looked good, although their play was clearly shaken up by EG. A decent amount of mistakes by most players, but none of them played terribly. They didn't quite have the coordination we have seen them play with in earlier games against weaker teams.
As I have said earlier, I am still nervous for Black. I'd say his decision-making without vision has improved greatly, but he isn't quite there yet. He didn't look terrible in any of the games. He did fine with slark in game one, but in the end didn't have the impact that he could have because his moves wasn't always fully coordinated with the team. Towards the end, it felt like he got caught out too much. That repeated itself with his weaver play in game 3. It felt like his greatest problem in that game was sub-par positioning for some of the fights. Too often, he had to run away without doing much. He made a few great decisions as well and made sure to get out good damage when he had the chance, often picking good targets. That accidental time lapse on bottom lane into an unnecessary buyback was really costly for his team, though.
Now, I'm just looking forward to the Faceless vs Digital Chaos match. I don't expect a win for Faceless, even though Digital Chaos have looked fairly weak lately, but I'd say it's going to be a very even match-up.
Well, it's not like iceiceice couldn't hit good chronos. He just likes to be a the front of the action a lot, not prioritizing chrono a lot. That lead to him dying before getting chrono out several times. I don't know if he perhaps doesn't have the patience for faceless void, but I could imagine him becoming great on the hero.
Faceless looked lost vs DC. DC played solid, but this was more on the weird plays and inefficient teamwork of Faceless. Not sure what the plan was when Ice3 lassod the warlock with barely any follow up. His late game decision making was seriously lacking. Also not sure if it was Black's poor performance or his team not making enough space for him. They go for a 4p1 strategy, but give him a shit lane. Then stack camps for the magnus who went echosabre first? Their early mid game lineup did nothing.
On November 19 2016 08:47 DucK- wrote: Well first lan was a disaster. At least we won games, and not lose 2-0s. Good practice I guess!
I don't see how it was a disaster. The boys put in a decent effort, facing two very tough opponents. But they definitely showed some chinks in their armor, no doubt, but better now than later. You cannot feel as confident before about Boston Major anymore.
On November 19 2016 15:25 Aceinth wrote: Kinda sad they cant win any bo3 series against all those teams, it will be surely a little demoralising for the team...
What do you mean? "All those teams"? They only played against two teams at "The Summit 6", both of which are among the best in the world. Surely, there's no shame in losing 1-2 against these teams. I imagine getting stomped would be demoralizing, since they want to do well at Boston Major. But now they just had more incentive to practice and work on their weaknesses.
On November 23 2016 22:16 Pontual wrote: Anyone watched faceless vs. execration yesterday? Faceless lost 2-0, how the games went?
Yeah, seeing the result had me a bit scared (I was thinking whether their results at The Summit 6 had effected their confidence). However, it turns out it was a default loss that Gosugamers put in their site. I'm not sure if a default loss was actually was awarded, though - according to Liquipedia, the game is happening in 2,5 hours.
On November 24 2016 00:13 Pontual wrote: Oh, so i guess Fnatic didn't loose 2-0 for WG.U in this same tournament as well? I was worried just like you, thought they might lost momentum.
I would guess that none of the matches happened (the Fnatic game was listed as a default loss as well on Gosugamers). According to Liquipedia, the matches didn't happen yet, and there are no updates by the organizer about those matches (I checked their Facebook and website).
I didn't manage to catch the games of Faceless vs LGD. Sounds as if it was fairly clean wins from LGD. Did Faceless look weak, did anyone fall through? I had hopes Faceless would at the very least play very close games with LGD.
I watched most of Faceless vs EG game 1, and it's still hard for me to point to one specific thing that lost it for Faceless. It might have been an outdraft again, or maybe there were just outplayed in the first few fights meaning that their line-up wouldn't be strong enough to fight EG before Black would come online on the anti-mage. Black did get caught out once (gank in dire jungle), but given how little chance Faceless had to win the fights, I have a hard time seeing how he could have contributed significantly more to those. It felt like none of their heroes were actually good against the cores of EG early/mid-game, and I couldn't see lifestealer or TA dying in a straight up fight.
Well-played by EG, while the play of Faceless looked somewhat uninspired.
Mehh. Jabz lan performance has been poor so far. Black gets sac'd a lot so I can't fully blame him. Seems Loke the support duo ain't getting enough done to create space or protect. Drafts seem to be the biggest problem. I really dislike how little disables they are playing with. Time to buck up!
On December 05 2016 09:53 DucK- wrote: Mehh. Jabz lan performance has been poor so far. Black gets sac'd a lot so I can't fully blame him. Seems Loke the support duo ain't getting enough done to create space or protect. Drafts seem to be the biggest problem. I really dislike how little disables they are playing with. Time to buck up!
I'm rooting for them at the major in person. I hope they reach deep and come out strong.
Dota Pit so far has been another tournament where many of the members of Team Faceless have performed dubiously. Meanwhile, iceiceice has stepped it up, and have really dragged them to their victories with an insane level of play. And in their latest match against iG, their coordination and clever team movements seemed on par with some of the stuff that we've seen from them before.
To follow up on my previous post, I'm still not convinced by Black, but at least there is hope that he will be big for Faceless. At least he plays a very good pudge
Black is unfortunate in that he plays a sacrificial role in the team. xy's too busy helping out the mid and offlane. nutz helps, but his heroes sometimes are not strong enough to grant black free farm.
Faceless are starting to show a bit of form in SEA again. SEA is starting to become a really interesting region, with a lot going on. Several teams are actually interesting and might break through. I realize that the Mr. Cat Invitational tournament wasn't one of much consequence, but it was still nice to see Faceless win it somewhat cleanly.
Given the impressive results of TnC at StarLadder i-League StarSeries Season 3 (beating both Secret and iG.V), I'm not certain that Faceless are the best team in SEA. Still, given how competitive the region has become, they might be able to produce some international results regardless, following up on their Dota Pit third place finish
Good news is Jabz should be improving every lan he goes to. At this rate they might get top 8 at TI for sure. Rest of team looks steady except for ice3 being next level or clowny as usual.
I attribute their Boston period failure to lack of experience, especially jabz. I hope they show up cuz I like their style of exerting pressure all over the map, gank squads after gank squads.
On March 06 2017 07:00 OmniEulogy wrote: I mean... Faceless is still 5-0 against this TNC lineup and like 88-17 in total in SEA or something. I dunno if they ever lost form there
They definitely did. They managed to drop matches against Warriors Gaming, Mineski and Execration in the Starladder qualifier, and didn't look anywhere near as convincing as previously in their other matches. They did beat TnC 2-0, but at the time of that match TnC had already secured the qualifier spot.
I agree that Jabz is probably the player who improves the most in the team, while iceiceice is the backbone. Black has seemed consistent as of late, but I am still not convinced he will be as consistent against the big opponents.
On April 25 2017 03:15 Asjo wrote: So, I didn't manage to catch much of Kiev Major yet, and only saw a few minutes of Faceless. Any thoughts on their play so far?
I didn't analyze it deeply and only watched their games vs EG so far, but they don't look very composed. Particularly in game 3 vs EG there were some really bad mistakes, bad calls, and overall bad play by several of them. It seems like they lack someone making the right calls on their team.
On April 25 2017 03:15 Asjo wrote: So, I didn't manage to catch much of Kiev Major yet, and only saw a few minutes of Faceless. Any thoughts on their play so far?
They seem to often be in a good position to win games, but somehow make mind boggling decisions that loses them instead. Also, one or two of black/jabz/ice will start choking.
It is really hard being a Faceless fan. Moments of brilliance and then just really questionable calls all over the place. It seems their overall plan is just weak and they fall apart with or without a lead.
Game 1 vs EG they started to gain momentum and then all of sudden Black and XY over extend for a support kill and get punished and lose aegis. Then Ice3 just goes straight into enemy jungle to get picked off again.
From what I've watched after posing my question, it feels like what you guys are saying is on point. Botched initation of fights, strange decision making, bad disengages. iceiceice has always had a somewhat suicidal style on Faceless, but he doesn't seem to have his usual high impact and cannot control the flow of the game. Black get caught out unnecessarily too often, as usual. And yet, they have some great combo plays sometimes that seem quite clever. Black sometimes does some really smart plays to help give Faceless an added edge. What I saw from them was definitely not low-level play, but sadly, just not that consistent.
Faceless has decided to stick together after being able to make top 8 and almost making top 4. Hopefully before TI they don't try to kick their players as the event is starting again, probably not great for morale going into an event. Very happy they're staying together though
I don't understand why faceless like to run no spammable stun lineups. They tend to rely heavily on just 1/2 big ulti like WL, and often just get kited in fights or can't gank at all.
Also I don't think nutz is good enough, but he and ice are buddies....
On May 22 2017 17:19 DucK- wrote: I don't understand why faceless like to run no spammable stun lineups. They tend to rely heavily on just 1/2 big ulti like WL, and often just get kited in fights or can't gank at all.
Also I don't think nutz is good enough, but he and ice are buddies....
Yeah their supports are really underwhelming. Everyone complains about Jabz but the supports do practically nothing to enable him, and Black / iceiceice can only do so much.
Jabz support was the missing link. Xy wasn't technically skilled enough for what the role now requires. Perfect position swap too with xy as he can farm and right click well enough.
And, for the parts I was able to catch, Black was actually playing like the carry we want him to be. Seems like he had a good tournament. So, very disheartening that even with Black playing well, and three spots available, Faceless couldn't qualify for SEA.
They originally said that they would stick together until TI7. I wonder if this is the final straw for them or whether they still find potential in the team. No doubt the SEA region has become much more competitive. All the teams that made it to the playoff are looking quite good. It was surprising that Execration did as well as they did, but both Fnatic and Mineski are looking really good on paper.
Black is ok, but I don't think he should play mid. He isn't a natural fit for the role. His laning mechanics is not up there, which makes him fall behind often.
Argh I wonder how many games xy loss faceless this qualifier.
On June 28 2017 03:01 Thetwinmasters wrote: Xy+nutz are just simply not good enough players to be successful with in a pro team
I still think xy on 4 is OK and its his best role. But nutz does nothing but feed every game. It's not like he's a valuable #6 like solo or PPD. Only reason he is in the team is cuz of his friendship with ice.
On June 29 2017 20:15 LemOn wrote: GG RIP another Black's stop Is he unlucky or does he just suck plain and simple guys
He's unlucky that xy sucked so hard as carry. And if he plays carry then xy/jabz gotta choke. As mid he ain't the best except on easy killers like lina, but overall credible/respectable performance from him. Can't fault him and iceiceice for faceless horror show.
On June 29 2017 20:18 LemOn wrote: Meh nevermind I checked dotabuff for their lost games he had rly good scores farm etc. in all of them Why doesn't a T1 Western team ever pick him up?
No idea.
This team was one good player from being truly great; they didn't draft to protect their biggest weakness (xy-) and they paid the price for it in this qualifier. Seriously, never a Centaur carry, or a VS carry, or anything like that which would allow iceiceice to play carry and tempo control heroes like Timbersaw or Nyx rather than freaking Underlord.
I completely believe that Black, iceiceice, and Jabz can be a strong trio for a truly great team. Black has improved a ton, and honestly is probably the best player on the team in it's current form (seriously his back has gotta hurt from these qualifiers), but they need to find enablers in either position 1 or position 5 to make their team work. I think it could be as simple as dropping xy- and picking up a good tempo carry player from SEA, or even a star mid player to move Black to carry role. Either way, this team still has a big future if they stick around and make the appropriate roster moves imo.
Well Black has played with people like Kuro, Fata and PLD in the west. If those guys liked playing with him he'd have received more chances. It's not like he's an unknown to the western players.
I don't think it's an obvious "skill" issue, but rather my guess is something related to communication and how you play around your team. For example I remember the time Black was playing with Qojqva on Team Tinker. Both of them were skilled, both hit their spells and could farm very well, but they seemed pretty weak in terms of deciding what to do as a team to actually win the game.
I don't think Black is somehow incapable of playing in a super successful team (as we saw in VG) but at the same time I don't think there is a clear reason why some top western team should pick him up over some other player. He's a skilled player but very few people gain a big edge in terms of individual ability. The game mostly comes down to how you draft and how you play as a team.
Iceiceice and Jabz currently teaming up with Mushi for Mineski in WCA qualifiers. Mineski also changed line up a bit adding Nana from WGU to midlane. Only kept Ninjaboogie and Mushi back to carry position.
My issue with the treatment of net was that Fnatic was in a very hot streak, qualifying for tournaments after tournaments. Net was doing decent, and then Mushi decides to conveniently come back after his break...
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