|
On December 04 2018 10:01 DucK- wrote:
Same. Tnc with all the misinformation to fan the flames didn't help their cause. Finally valve's hand is forced and they have spoken. I still think the Chinese overreacted (social vigilantes...) and a ban will not help mend relations, but at least this means closure to this bullshit.
That said valve is conveniently pushing most of the blame to tnc when they played a big part with their passiveness. Ay everyone fucked up. Chinese being shit for their reaction, kuku for saying stupid stuff, tnc for how they handled and valve for being ambiguous and no clear rules. Disappointed with all
This
|
On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it.
Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate?
In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist.
|
On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene.
plz do that... less toxicity in pubs
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist.
perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians
|
On December 04 2018 13:39 SpeaKEaSY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 11:24 HolyPepsi wrote:On December 04 2018 11:07 SpeaKEaSY wrote:Actually, looking at it again, Valve's reasoning does not add up. The way I interpreted it, Valve offered them the ability to sub someone in with no penalty, but TNC not finding someone and trying to cover up the infraction caused them to rescind their offer and instead punish them directly. However, TNC's manager apologized for the coverup on November 13, and Valve apparently made the offer last Tuesday, so Nov 27. If the coverup was such a big factor leading to the ban and docking of points, why even make that offer 2 weeks after they admit to and apologize for doing it? It's not like TNC was doing nothing either, as recently as earlier today they mentioned they were still waiting to hear back from IMBATV to work on a resolution. Am I misreading/misunderstanding something here? the government involvement on ban, life threatening spread was unconfirmed rumors... i have yet found a any source in cited Chinese... which means... there was never (or wouldnt have been) a ban on kuku all the shit was made up by tnc (and few twitts).. practically speaking, it is very difficult for an average scaled event in Chongqing (some one in charge of this in the government is fairly low ranked) to negotiate a visa ban (to the foreign ministry) .... think of a mid tier municipal government negotiating with federal government for a visa ban... kuku incidence is... too small for this... and Chinese government will never say things like "we cannot guarantee the safety of certain person".... thats why I have been completely skeptical about the whole rumor, my guess was tnc making shit up and I was probably right.. the western community has been played by tnc's moral/victim card. do you think RedEye is lying? While I agree that the rumors lack hard evidence (at least to us the general public), I think Valve's response is questionable and inadequate. They deny that the government banned Kuku, but they didn't deny a bunch of the other rumors floating around that have in part been talked about by people who have something to lose by being wrong about this. By not denying these other rumors, it's at best an inadequate response and a missed opportunity, and at worst admission by omission.
Redeye
@PaulChaloner
15h15 hours ago
More
Valve aren't suddenly banning Kuku because his team fucked up. They are banning him because of his actions. The only reason they have had to ban him (in their view) is because they expected TNC to "do the right thing" and not take him to the Major.
In other words, they're saying if they were fully in charge of the scene they would have banned him.
But as they prefer to take a more laid back approach, they trusted the team to do this.
Because it didn't happen, they stepped in.
-------------------------------------
it is one word against another. is redeye more credible than valve? in case if you dont get, it is the whole tnc management + western ideological stereotype against "evil china" banned kuku. it is so easy to blame on chinese government on every rumor isnt it. this applies to redeye too who think hes mature and smart. by making this statement basically redeye is acusing valve is lying... which is a childish behavior (he didnt get what he want and he couldnt attendn to chongqing major).. what evidence he saw? a twitt? a chat screen shot? whos accountable for the chat and what posistion is he/she in to say certain things? how do you know if it is not just someones intrepretation?
btw Godz is a lot smarter.
leaving a safe door for himself to step out of this mess while showing some curtisy to the neoliberalism
|
On December 04 2018 23:50 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist. perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians
You miss the point. The origin of the expression has been mentioned a bunch of times now. This obviously eplains why chinese are so offended by the phrase, but this is completely unrelated to my argument.
First of all, historical context does not equal current usage of a phrase. And secondly, the historical way in which the expression was used does not matter unless you actually know of it and also mean it in the way in which it was used back then.
|
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On December 05 2018 00:02 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 23:50 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist. perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians You miss the point. The origin of the expression has been mentioned a bunch of times now. This obviously eplains why chinese are so offended by the phrase, but this is completely unrelated to my argument. First of all, historical context does not equal current usage of a phrase. And secondly, the historical way in which the expression was used does not matter unless you actually know of it and also mean it in the way in which it was used back then.
i agree that intent matters a lot, but the fact remains, that he made a remark that you acknowledge can reasonably be interpreted to be racist, in a pub that can be viewed by thousands of people. it's a farcry from a un-PC joke shared between a few friends in a private setting. that said, if he had simply apologised and acknowledged what he did was offensive, i think that would have been the end of the matter. instead, his team tried to cover it up, and from his now-deleted tweets, he's shown no signs that he's truly remorseful and feels he's the victim here.
|
In the end, it's the Chinese community and the Chinese government who look full of themselves. They achieved the opposite of what they wanted imo. Also it's much easier to forgive a young lad than a stupid angry mob.
|
On December 05 2018 00:14 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 00:02 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 23:50 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist. perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians You miss the point. The origin of the expression has been mentioned a bunch of times now. This obviously eplains why chinese are so offended by the phrase, but this is completely unrelated to my argument. First of all, historical context does not equal current usage of a phrase. And secondly, the historical way in which the expression was used does not matter unless you actually know of it and also mean it in the way in which it was used back then. i agree that intent matters a lot, but the fact remains, that he made a remark that you acknowledge can reasonably be interpreted to be racist, in a pub that can be viewed by thousands of people. it's a farcry from a un-PC joke shared between a few friends in a private setting. that said, if he had simply apologised and acknowledged what he did was offensive, i think that would have been the end of the matter. instead, his team tried to cover it up, and from his now-deleted tweets, he's shown no signs that he's truly remorseful and feels he's the victim here.
I mostly agree. I still believe it was not meant to be offensive by him and was blown out of proportion. Not manning up was a definite mistake however.
|
It scares me that so many seem to think that political correctness in its current form is a good thing. Who defines what's offensive? There's boatloads of things that offend me but I don't go around whining about it.
If we make it a crime to be edgy in our expressions, you take away a lot of what it means to be human. In order to see and know the light, you must know, and be able to express, darkness as well. Freedom of speech is by far the best thing our "free" western societies have produced and now we're gonna go back on that. Doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
A lot of humor is based in the tragic, the outrageous, the obnoxious. Growing up i can't count the amount of times I've stereotyped, mimicked, or in other ways made fun of people from other groups than my own. That doesn't mean there was any ill intent and until PC culture (an extension of female neuroticism taking over the world) it was never perceived that way either. Flied lice, or waddap dawg, or what have you, are just fun. It's not meant to be offensive but it is just fun to caricaturize and parodize. It's harmless, as long as people are educated properly as to the difference between words and violence.
User was warned for this post
|
On December 04 2018 16:33 chipmonklord17 wrote:
According to Valve what occurred is that they told TNC there would be no penalty for playing without Kuku, but didn't imply to them there would be anything wrong with playing with him. Its like the fucking shocked pikachu meme, you mean to tell me TNC wanted to play with their real roster when they had no reason to play with a stand in? Color me surprised. Maybe Valve should have told them the offer they were giving was a one time deal (like a plea deal), and that if they didn't accept the offer to play with a stand in at no reduction, there was no guarantee it was going to be okay in the end if that was their real intention.
EDIT: The more I think about it the more Valve should have set it up like a plea deal if TNC's cover up was the real problem. Just (as Valve) tell them that they know they (TNC) covered the story up, so if they just play without Kuku this one tournament without a penalty, to let this whole thing blow over, we'll call it square. That way as Valve you can further distance yourself from the outcome, and say if TNC chose to say no it was TNC's fault this was occurring, not China's, not Valve's
It's not Valve's job to take actions on TNC's part. They are not responsible for TNC or any of their members.
Valve and the TO/ChongQuing government whoever gave them pointer in the direction they are supposed to go and salvage the situation by their own accord (pretty important if you consider how they handled the situation before) and TNC didn't want any of that good shit. They went full "lets be selfish WEEEE" instead of showing some respect - so Valve bitchslapped them.
Also in your edit you are forgetting that the story didn't happen between TNC and Valve, there is nothing both could call square.
|
On December 05 2018 01:04 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 00:14 ahswtini wrote:On December 05 2018 00:02 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 23:50 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist. perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians You miss the point. The origin of the expression has been mentioned a bunch of times now. This obviously eplains why chinese are so offended by the phrase, but this is completely unrelated to my argument. First of all, historical context does not equal current usage of a phrase. And secondly, the historical way in which the expression was used does not matter unless you actually know of it and also mean it in the way in which it was used back then. i agree that intent matters a lot, but the fact remains, that he made a remark that you acknowledge can reasonably be interpreted to be racist, in a pub that can be viewed by thousands of people. it's a farcry from a un-PC joke shared between a few friends in a private setting. that said, if he had simply apologised and acknowledged what he did was offensive, i think that would have been the end of the matter. instead, his team tried to cover it up, and from his now-deleted tweets, he's shown no signs that he's truly remorseful and feels he's the victim here. I mostly agree. I still believe it was not meant to be offensive by him and was blown out of proportion. Not manning up was a definite mistake however.
would you care to explain what his actual intension was by using the phrase?
i dont understand why you would think he doesnt "know" about it. two pro players from the sea region used the phrase in a span of days? and we kinda know that there is a certain tension between china and the sea countries.
the definition on wiktionary: (offensive, ethnic slur) Mimicking Chinese speech.
|
Banning someone for a joke! Damn!
|
TNC is not the good guys, but it seems like valve is upset at TNC for not doing Valve's job for them. KuKu suspended for saying racist thing and trying to cover it up, sounds fine to me. Valve taking some high horse? Someone's peeing on my shoes and telling me it's raining. I really wish Skem was going to see if the TNC cover up is really the issue or if it's pressure from other sources.
|
On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn!
For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke...
If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?!
If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it.
|
On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it.
different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous.
|
tncs team manager just got fired
|
On December 05 2018 03:31 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it. different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous.
Be careful man, or you will receive a warning. I just got one myself, for "attacking" a user in this thread.
|
On December 05 2018 03:31 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it. different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous.
if you would be so kind to answer my questions. thanks!
|
On December 05 2018 03:39 HolyPepsi wrote:
tncs team manager just got fired
That guy's been fired for ages
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
