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On December 04 2018 09:29 Latham wrote:
Liquid stepped in and punished Mind_Control almost immediately (I wanna say in 24h, but might have been 48h) and recognised his wrong 100% and punished him according to their own rules. Also I tihnk they made him make some form of public apology?
Kuku or TNC tried to weasel out of the punishment and backlash by covering the thing up at first, and now waiting for the storm to blow over (judging from volvo's post) which apparently pissed off the whole of China because of their moral code or whatever it is aaand the wait pissed off volvo.
The other dude (I forgot his name?) came out and apologised for his remarks so China's angry mob let him off the hook.
This post is completely off the topic but i just need to say it out because interference from Chinese government is unacceptable.
Just a reminder about Chinese government and their "morale code"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests
I dont want anyone to have moral such as theirs.
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@above me
still theres alot of sane people
(not sure about some places)
(although u might box them in)
maybe they dont do forums so much,
and problematic ones are noted
and trust valve to know the complete picture, it might not be as big as you think it is, but they also definitely feel the same way you do,
all in all, mm
edit: do know that some issues arent as simple as you read it is, but dear GOD when will it ever end
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I also think that things said in pubs should be red more like trolling than actual statements. I mean c'mon we all said things, just to piss of a guy or two, and never ment them. However the reaction of the Chinese community seems a bit like the Holywood reacting an year ago to Kevin Spacey may or may not spanked a guy on the ass some 30 years ago. The overraction came after Harvey Weinstein bullshitz came to see the world. This seems much bigger discrimination than the suspicion of sexual harassment. I remember some other guy got sacked after a young actress came to his hotel room @ 10PM expecting to talk about work... I mean c'mon if you invite someone to your home for a "coffee" after a date, noone expect that you will actually have coffee?
Back on the subject - people talk trash when they are playing with friends, or in pubs. Thats a fact and will not change. If someone decides to get offended by it and wastes almost a month to entire community it is on them. However - i agree with Valve's desigion to punish TNC after trying to cover it up, and basically lie to the community stating unchecked facts.
On December 04 2018 16:02 warrior4093 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 09:29 Latham wrote:
Liquid stepped in and punished Mind_Control almost immediately (I wanna say in 24h, but might have been 48h) and recognised his wrong 100% and punished him according to their own rules. Also I tihnk they made him make some form of public apology?
Kuku or TNC tried to weasel out of the punishment and backlash by covering the thing up at first, and now waiting for the storm to blow over (judging from volvo's post) which apparently pissed off the whole of China because of their moral code or whatever it is aaand the wait pissed off volvo.
The other dude (I forgot his name?) came out and apologised for his remarks so China's angry mob let him off the hook. This post is completely off the topic but i just need to say it out because interference from Chinese government is unacceptable. Just a reminder about Chinese government and their "morale code" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protestsI dont want anyone to have moral such as theirs.
Thats what communism does to you. I live in a country that that had that kind of regime for 45 years, up until 30 years ago.
Just a brief example - in '86 thousands of local muslims were forced to change their names and even leave their homes. I'm not going to tell you what happened to those who resisted. This regime just f*cks with people heads and most of them don't realise whats actually going on. Just check North Korea, they actually believe that they landed on the Sun, during the night, ofcourse, as during the day it is way too hot.
No matter that some things changed, and things are no longer brutal - officialy "The Party" is still in power in China.
Just stating some facts.
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On December 04 2018 15:19 ampson wrote:
I'm incredibly disappointed in Valve. Kuku had to be banned. It was by far the best solution for the heath of competitive dota 2, even if one disagrees with it on principle (as I do). But this statement is just a complete mess. It contradicts itself and quite frankly I'm sure Valve is being disingenuous if not outright lying.
First of all, TNC's botched coverup was almost a month ago. If that was such a huge issue to Valve, that should have been the end of things. Kuku or the organization itself should have been banned and that could have been that. However, Valve themselves state that last Tuesday they offered to let TNC play the event with a stand-in and no DPC point reduction.
To me this is incredibly telling. It's clear from following this game for years that the last thing Valve likes to do is get involved. It takes nuclear stuff like tournaments issuing DMCA takedowns or teams competing in the wrong region to get them to say anything. They wanted to lay low at all costs to avoid alienating either China or the West. Their offer to TNC was obviously an attempt to entice them into using a stand-in of their own volition, hopefully satisfying fans from both sides.
For whatever reason, TNC declined, and I feel that they're being punished by Valve for not accepting the offer. Valve clearly didn't have a problem with TNC's coverup, as they made what could be construed as a generous offer to have TNC compete even after having 3 weeks to "follow the situation" and think about it. What set Valve off was TNC not going along with their plan, forcing Valve's hand into action they knew would have negative consequences with Western customers.
I also think Valve is being intentionally misleading about Kuku not having been banned by the Chinese government. If it was just one tweet from Cyborgmatt, then maybe. But between Redeye, EE, KBBQ, and Cyborgmatt, there's a pretty good track record of delivering reliable information. While Kuku may never have been banned officially, statements like "We can't guarantee your safety if you come" are a clear attempt at intimidation. Imbatv BBC's comments clearly show that there is bad blood. While Valve may be correct in saying "Kuku was not banned by the Chinese government," I believe that they're intentionally omitting a pertinent statement. I believe that while he may never have been banned officially, he was always going to be banned.
Again, I'm not upset that Kuku was banned. I am upset that Valve has lost control of the competitive Dota 2 scene. I'm upset about the precedent this sets for Chinese LANs, especially with TI9 located in Shanghai. I'm very upset that Valve stepped in at the last moment and said "He's not getting banned by the government, we're banning him!" And I'm mostly mad because Valve apparently thinks I'm stupid enough to buy what they're selling. I love dota 2. I've logged thousands of hours and I've bought every compendium since TI3 (which was the first they released) and most of the battle passes. But I'm seriously questioning whether I'm OK with giving Valve money right now.
100% this. I don't get the logic behind explicitly telling TNC they wouldn't get a point reduction multiple weeks after everyone is aware TNC lied. If there's no penalty for playing with him, and there's no penalty for playing without him, why on earth would TNC play without him? Wouldn't it be worse for "competitive integrity" if TnC fielded a worse roster than normal for 'no reason'?
According to Valve what occurred is that they told TNC there would be no penalty for playing without Kuku, but didn't imply to them there would be anything wrong with playing with him. Its like the fucking shocked pikachu meme, you mean to tell me TNC wanted to play with their real roster when they had no reason to play with a stand in? Color me surprised. Maybe Valve should have told them the offer they were giving was a one time deal (like a plea deal), and that if they didn't accept the offer to play with a stand in at no reduction, there was no guarantee it was going to be okay in the end if that was their real intention.
EDIT: The more I think about it the more Valve should have set it up like a plea deal if TNC's cover up was the real problem. Just (as Valve) tell them that they know they (TNC) covered the story up, so if they just play without Kuku this one tournament without a penalty, to let this whole thing blow over, we'll call it square. That way as Valve you can further distance yourself from the outcome, and say if TNC chose to say no it was TNC's fault this was occurring, not China's, not Valve's
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On December 04 2018 11:24 HolyPepsi wrote:
thats why I have been completely skeptical about the whole rumor, my guess was tnc making shit up and I was probably right.. the western community has been played by tnc's moral/victim card.
The western community was played by China taking such grievous offense that people were able to believe anything and everything.
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On December 04 2018 16:24 NInoff wrote:
I also think that things said in pubs should be red more like trolling than actual statements. I mean c'mon we all said things, just to piss of a guy or two, and never ment them. However the reaction of the Chinese community seems a bit like the Holywood reacting an year ago to Kevin Spacey may or may not spanked a guy on the ass some 30 years ago. The overraction came after Harvey Weinstein bullshitz came to see the world. This seems much bigger discrimination than the suspicion of sexual harassment. I remember some other guy got sacked after a young actress came to his hotel room @ 10PM expecting to talk about work... I mean c'mon if you invite someone to your home for a "coffee" after a date, noone expect that you will actually have coffee?
"allegedly we have all made racist remarks and thats ok"
"kevin spacey is the real victim"
"after 10pm the only thing you do with women is fuck them"
what the fuck is wrong with you?
edit: if there is something that we can take from this incident it is that too many people have no trouble with racism and have trouble not pouring out their whole political agenda for an issue that is very clear-cut.
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TBH Kuku is just a sacrificial goat which cannot be avoided. It happens all over the human history, when someone break a rule there is a chance that they will be punished heavily to remind others not to follow suit. Of course everyone has their own versions of stories, it really comes down to what you want to believe. IMO TNC has played this series of event very poorly. Their public posts got nothing other than their own countrymen's support and to everyone else its just a laughable matter because one less top level player means there's a better chance that the team they support gets a better result.
I already mentioned somewhere else that the Major is not going to boycotted, nor is TI9. Those caster who spoke out so soon without knowing the whole situation makes them look very immature and stupid. The smart ones have kept their mouth shut until there is official announcement. There is no point crying for TNC now as both the team and Kuku has accepted this punishment which doesn't seem so unfair as no one has objected this officially other than their fans.
As a public figure, you just got to be smart. Even in China, many popular streamers has fall from the peak of the mountain right down to the bottom because they have said something stupid or did some stupid thing in their streams. The internet is just so transparent now that nothing can get away. If you cannot control your mouth or your actions and did something stupid, expect a big reaction from netizens. If you don't suit this industry/career, there is plenty others out there that does not expose you on the internet. This is pretty much a social/morale issue not just a gaming issue like many mentioned. As a public figure you are the role model of all your fans. Putting one foot in the wrong place could destroy your career so everyone needs to learn their lesson from this incident. You can always have fun and stuff without being stupid, just got to be smart.
Just my 2 cent worth, don't flame. 
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Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene.
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Guys, please just put it to rest. Finally the big daddy Valve stepped in and put all those things that might/could happen into dust. It's over, TNC get punished as well as Kuku and we should go back talking about how PA is bullshit hero.
Anyway, I am not surprised it happened this way. Kuku was caught twice promoting racism when Valve has made a statement on racism itself and then TNC tried to wiggle their ways out. Valve finally lost their temper and just outright punished them. If you think this is not fair, you should read about LoL's case where a going-to-be-pro-player banned for life just because he said nigger in pub. He has no chance to enter pro boot camp or whatever those at Riot called it.
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On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene.
"i cant make racist remarks anymore so i wont play dota"
good riddance
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene.
there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism.
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On December 04 2018 18:48 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 16:24 NInoff wrote:
I also think that things said in pubs should be red more like trolling than actual statements. I mean c'mon we all said things, just to piss of a guy or two, and never ment them. However the reaction of the Chinese community seems a bit like the Holywood reacting an year ago to Kevin Spacey may or may not spanked a guy on the ass some 30 years ago. The overraction came after Harvey Weinstein bullshitz came to see the world. This seems much bigger discrimination than the suspicion of sexual harassment. I remember some other guy got sacked after a young actress came to his hotel room @ 10PM expecting to talk about work... I mean c'mon if you invite someone to your home for a "coffee" after a date, noone expect that you will actually have coffee?
"allegedly we have all made racist remarks and thats ok" "kevin spacey is the real victim" "after 10pm the only thing you do with women is fuck them" what the fuck is wrong with you? edit: if there is something that we can take from this incident it is that too many people have no trouble with racism and have trouble not pouring out their whole political agenda for an issue that is very clear-cut.
Look at you, the morale instance of dota 2. What the fuck is wrong with you? This is still a video game, and those pro players are normal guys like us, who normaly don't have someone that tells them what they are allowed to say. This is not real sports, even if some people want to make it sound like that. Also it doesn't change the fact, that many things are said in pubs, you often don't think about it, in the heat of the moment. and for me ching chong is still not racist, not changing my opinion here. it may not have been nice what he said, but that's a big difference from calling it racism straight away. In my eyes, the definition of racism these days depends on how political correct you are. Racial slur is not racism for me. Maybe that's because I am german, we are more or less used to getting insulted with racial slur since ww2. If kuku said something like "chinese dogs" or "shitty slit eyes" that would not be ok of course. of course, real racism is bad, and needs to be punished. and plz, don't compare kuku to Kevin Spacey ok? That's ridicilous...
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It's pretty clear that Valve isn't just talking about the cover-up by TNC, but some of their most recent statements (specifically, they all but accuse TNC of lying about being told that Kuku's security won't be guaranteed).
As far as RedEye's statement goes, the burden of proof is really on him and CyborgMatt. I fully believe that there were elements that probably wanted it to happen, but since no formal statement was ever issued, and TNC, Valve, and Col all have said that they're wrong, they need to put up if they want to be taken seriously.
Also, Kuku had something of a melt down on Twitter then deleted his entire twitter. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ZKXtroZg.jpg)
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On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism.
That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way.
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On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way.
the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it.
@hunter_x: at least try to read the post i was referring to before unloading your frustration. some of your hot takes...y i k e s
and still ignoring the worst cover up attempt in the history huh?
User was warned for this post
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On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. @hunter_x: at least try to read the post i was referring to before unloading your frustration. some of your hot takes...y i k e s
I have read all your posts, doesn't change anything about what I said. you are a person who doesn't accept other opinions when it comes to this matter, that is clear by now. the world isn't only black and white, same with this topic. You really make it easy for yourself, if you always go by definitions.
User was warned for this post
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Some people have pointed it out already but a rulebook with clear boundaries and code of conduct that also points out the consequences would have more than likely prevented this. If not the issue itself, then at least the escalation of the issues to the point it is now.
Valve really needs to be proactive, not reactive about things like this. People are right to point out previous incidents and Valve's reactions there being way less drastic. Also if this is now turning into "TNC as a team/organisation lied/misrepresented their position for their own gain" issue then why is there a player ban in the first place.
Personally I feel like the ban was too harsh, but I'm okay with it if it is the consistent solution in issues like this from now on. If sometimes someone gets away with a slap on the wrist and other times they are kept out of one of the six most important events of the year it is hard to feel that the same rules are applied to everyone. Racism and using racist expressions to hurt other people are big problems in dota, and will be until Valve takes heftier measures to curb it. I hope that they use this incident to also promote better behaviour in pubs and maybe revise their report systems.
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what a farce banning kuku in the first place imo...
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Poland3748 Posts
Can someone tell my why calling someone ching chong in non sanctioned game results in such calamity? I mean it's rude but that's pretty much it. Am I missing cultural context for this one?
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In professional play there should be a real punishment if someone breaks the code of conduct. From my perspective it's never okay to use racist language or lie to officials. We all know that Dota is a place where a lot of bad language is happening in game but that doesn't mean that it's a valid thing to do. Wishing someone cancer or using racist vocals isn't okay. It's also not cool btw ...
Just because you are good at Dota doesn't mean that you are a nice person (eg. Ritsu). As a professional player you are a role model and if you don't react in a proper time in a proper manner to your mistakes then you should be punished. If not, then it will happen again and every time they will try to defend themselves with a past case where no one punished the misbehavior.
I think Valve wanted to give TNC a chance to correct their own mistakes but they failed horrible. They waited with their apology until they qualified and never had the intention to replace Kuku for the Major, even knowing that they fucked up. So yeah, the ban was predictable and TNC should stop defending themselves in this case. The ship is already sinking and the damage you take will only increase.
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EPT
