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Valve Bans
Kuku from CQ Major
We’ve been following the recent situation regarding TNC and the Chongqing Major and how it has unfolded. First, for clarification, Kuku is not banned by the Chinese government. While there is a lot of anxiety around his attendance and problems it may create, we do not believe his presence creates a real security threat.
Our view on the situation is that responsibility resides with teams to handle these types of issues professionally. When they fail to do so, we will step in. While it is one thing to make a mistake and apologize, it is quite another thing for the team to lie about it or try to create cover for an individual player. TNC has mishandled the situation on multiple occasions, making the situation much worse than it needed to be.
TNC contacted Valve last Tuesday, asking if they would get a DPC point penalty for replacing Kuku; we told them that they wouldn’t. We assumed that they were then working on a plan to replace Kuku with another player. However it seems like TNC is currently not taking proper responsibility for their actions, coupled with the attempted cover up by the team, so we are now stepping in directly and banning Kuku from attending this event. To be clear, TNC is not the victim in this case. It is not okay to cover up the situation, avoid any real sense of responsibility and then deflect it onto the community. We expect them to disagree with this.
Players and teams will make mistakes in the future, and they should accept responsibility for them. We want there to be opportunities to learn from their errors, but taking responsibility doesn’t mean making mistakes don’t come with a cost. Covering up the situation is not an acceptable approach to the problem, and demonstrates poor decision making from TNC that requires accountability. In addition to being required to replace Kuku, we will also be docking 20% of TNC’s current DPC points. The player restriction does not affect future tournaments.
http://blog.dota2.com/2018/12/tnc-and-the-chongqing-major/
Essentially, the issue is the coverup by TNC, not Kuku's specific actions
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This statement is a bit overdue but I reckon it's fair and clear.
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On December 04 2018 08:47 nayumi wrote:
This statement is a bit overdue but I reckon it's fair and clear.
i feel the same way. good decision by valve
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Better late than never I guess. But I still wonder, what guarantees that Kuku wont face any issues competing in another tournament held in China?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
On December 04 2018 08:47 nayumi wrote:
This statement is a bit overdue but I reckon it's fair and clear.
Same thoughts here more or less
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Valve kind of did a bunch of groups a "solid" with this, but it at least ends this chapter. Now everyone gets to claim some sort of victory or victimhood and go home. Further establishes Valve's Teddy Roosevelt position of having a big stick.
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I know this is beating a very dead horse, but why was this punished by valve and not the Mind_Control incedent. Their statement indicates that they were very unhappy with the way TNC handled it but if the team is punished why isnt "it" banned but a single player?
So the message send is basically "if you have a good PR department you can get away with it"? Or am i wrong?
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Liquid stepped in and punished Mind_Control almost immediately (I wanna say in 24h, but might have been 48h) and recognised his wrong 100% and punished him according to their own rules. Also I tihnk they made him make some form of public apology?
Kuku or TNC tried to weasel out of the punishment and backlash by covering the thing up at first, and now waiting for the storm to blow over (judging from volvo's post) which apparently pissed off the whole of China because of their moral code or whatever it is aaand the wait pissed off volvo.
The other dude (I forgot his name?) came out and apologised for his remarks so China's angry mob let him off the hook.
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On December 04 2018 09:19 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I know this is beating a very dead horse, but why was this punished by valve and not the Mind_Control incedent. Their statement indicates that they were very unhappy with the way TNC handled it but if the team is punished why isnt "it" banned but a single player?
So the message send is basically "if you have a good PR department you can get away with it"? Or am i wrong?
TNC kept repeatedly shooting itself in the foot. This was Valve preventing gangrene from setting in. Valve "ended" the issue, but, also in the way Valve likes to do this, more or less established the precedent going forward. Further, by Valve handing out the penalty, they gave cover for whatever was happening in China to go away.
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On December 04 2018 09:19 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I know this is beating a very dead horse, but why was this punished by valve and not the Mind_Control incedent. Their statement indicates that they were very unhappy with the way TNC handled it but if the team is punished why isnt "it" banned but a single player?
So the message send is basically "if you have a good PR department you can get away with it"? Or am i wrong?
More like messing with the wrong country. CIS does seem to have a thicker skin then china. i still think its fucking insane, that it came to this, since it was also said in a fucking pub, not at a lan. A lot of things are said there, kuku wasnt and will not be the last pro. but whatever, lets hope this shit is over now, and concentrate on dota again;)
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just as I thought... the escalation of the entire issue was based on TnC's dirty strategy to cover up their mistakes...
So basically:
-TnC make up a story to cover kuku's lie
-a PR move (apology) right after being qualified (I assume if they dont qualify they would not bother to apologize)
-TnC lied about "life threat from government", since the source was never confirmed only coming out from tnc's twitt, clarified by valve
-TnC lied & misinterpret the communication between TnC & Valve
-TnC lied about communication between Chinese organizer of Chongqing event (first saying organizer banned them then saying they are unable to reach the organizer)
instead correcting the mistake like a man, TnC chose to play the moral /victim card, using unconfirmed rumor to stir up the pod raising conflicts between west vs China... this is text book fail....
so i guess the casters will stick with their word we wont see them (i hope tobi is invited)
p.s. i hope sea management learn a hard lesson from this. last time I recall the same incidence (covering up mistakes) was ddz's match fixing. such a talented player.
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On December 04 2018 09:38 HolyPepsi wrote:
just as I thought... the escalation of the entire issue was based on TnC's dirty strategy to cover up their mistakes...
So basically:
-TnC make up a story to cover kuku's lie
-a PR move (apology) right after being qualified (I assume if they dont qualify they would not bother to apologize)
-TnC lied about "life threat from government", since the source was never confirmed only coming out from tnc's twitt, clarified by valve
-TnC lied & misinterpret the communication between TnC & Valve
-TnC lied about communication between Chinese organizer of Chongqing event (first saying organizer banned them then saying they are unable to reach the organizer)
instead correcting the mistake like a man, TnC chose to play the moral /victim card, using unconfirmed rumor to stir up the pod raising conflicts between west vs China... this is text book fail....
so i guess the casters will stick with their word we wont see them (i hope tobi is invited)
Tobi is not invited, he wrote something about it on twitter. doesnt seem to have anything to do with the drama though.
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On December 04 2018 09:37 hunter_x wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 09:19 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I know this is beating a very dead horse, but why was this punished by valve and not the Mind_Control incedent. Their statement indicates that they were very unhappy with the way TNC handled it but if the team is punished why isnt "it" banned but a single player?
So the message send is basically "if you have a good PR department you can get away with it"? Or am i wrong? since it was also said in a fucking pub, not at a lan. A lot of things are said there, kuku wasnt and will not be the last pro.
so they should get a free pass? as a public figure you have some responsibility and thats not even talking about the fact that racist remarks have no place in any dota game.
and once again you seem to ignore parts of the story that dont fit your narrative :^)
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Seems to me like valve punted the football and was hoping TNC would fall on their sword and take the pressure of the situation for everyone's sake, and when that didn't happen they decided to throw TNC back under the bus which they had crawled under rather than drawing the ire of China.
Not going to defend TNC too hard when they were without a doubt unprofessional throughout, but so were valve and the tournament organizers. Still bothered by the fact that the thinly veiled threat of "we can't guarantee his safety" hasn't been addressed. And Valve took way too long to publicly address this. Valve and the TO should accept partial responsibility for this poorly handled mess.
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On December 04 2018 08:47 nayumi wrote:
This statement is a bit overdue but I reckon it's fair and clear.
Same. Tnc with all the misinformation to fan the flames didn't help their cause. Finally valve's hand is forced and they have spoken. I still think the Chinese overreacted (social vigilantes...) and a ban will not help mend relations, but at least this means closure to this bullshit.
That said valve is conveniently pushing most of the blame to tnc when they played a big part with their passiveness. Ay everyone fucked up. Chinese being shit for their reaction, kuku for saying stupid stuff, tnc for how they handled and valve for being ambiguous and no clear rules. Disappointed with all
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I didn't realize TNC attempted to cover it up I guess. I've been following this somewhat on Reddit and whatnot. Can someone clarify what Valve is referring to?
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On December 04 2018 10:01 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 08:47 nayumi wrote:
This statement is a bit overdue but I reckon it's fair and clear. Same. Tnc with all the misinformation to fan the flames didn't help their cause. Finally valve's hand is forced and they have spoken. I still think the Chinese overreacted (social vigilantes...) and a ban will not help mend relations, but at least this means closure to this bullshit. That said valve is conveniently pushing most of the blame to tnc when they played a big part with their passiveness. Ay everyone fucked up. Chinese being shit for their reaction, kuku for saying stupid stuff, tnc for how they handled and valve for being ambiguous and no clear rules. Disappointed with all
I agree with this completely; I honestly don't think that TNC was pushing disinformation as much as no one was actually interacting with them. I think this is why Valve is only banning him for a single tournament; I have full faith that if Valve didn't feel some sort of side guilt for the way this happened he would have been banned from TI as well.
If you're TNC, bite the bullet and just take this punishment and be done with it. Also fire your manager.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
On December 04 2018 10:15 Jonoman92 wrote:
I didn't realize TNC attempted to cover it up I guess. I've been following this somewhat on Reddit and whatnot. Can someone clarify what Valve is referring to?
TnC deflected at first, saying Kuku was just reacting to a handle of someone playing in the pub. People then went looking for the match in question and saw that the steam profile name was just recently changed in order to go along with the cover up story of TnC: "He was not racist at all, just some dumbass in his pub was".
Naturally this just enraged the internet mob even more and we ended up with both sides (western and chinese communities) escalating things even further.
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both china and tnc are equally guilty. i have no respect for valve, either.
this is a videogame. not politics. apologize, grow a pair, and move the fuck on.
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I have mixed feelings about Valve's response.
It's really late, and I think Valve needed to take responsibility earlier. This reminds me of certain drama associated with admins not being able to enforce rules in pro matches and hoping to let them resolve or take the easy way out.
People keep saying that Valve's response to TNC when they said TNC could play without a play-in penalty was a surefire hint for TNC not to proceed to Chongqing with Kuku. I think even though it was pretty clear, but it was not definitive. And then TNC proceeded to self-implode. Valve's laissez-faire attitude to their pro scene caused a whole lot of unnecessary drama, though I can't say it was ultimately pointless since hopefully dragging this out will more likely prevent future situations similar to this one from happening.
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On December 04 2018 10:15 Jonoman92 wrote:
I didn't realize TNC attempted to cover it up I guess. I've been following this somewhat on Reddit and whatnot. Can someone clarify what Valve is referring to?
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/phvOpTE.jpg)
turns out this guy (probably a friend of tnc) changed his name to Ching Chong later, but there was a record showing for name changes.
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Actually, looking at it again, Valve's reasoning does not add up. The way I interpreted it, Valve offered them the ability to sub someone in with no penalty, but TNC not finding someone and trying to cover up the infraction caused them to rescind their offer and instead punish them directly.
However, TNC's manager apologized for the coverup on November 13, and Valve apparently made the offer last Tuesday, so Nov 27.
If the coverup was such a big factor leading to the ban and docking of points, why even make that offer 2 weeks after they admit to and apologize for doing it? It's not like TNC was doing nothing either, as recently as earlier today they mentioned they were still waiting to hear back from IMBATV to work on a resolution.
Am I misreading/misunderstanding something here?
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On December 04 2018 11:03 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 10:15 Jonoman92 wrote:
I didn't realize TNC attempted to cover it up I guess. I've been following this somewhat on Reddit and whatnot. Can someone clarify what Valve is referring to? turns out this guy (probably a friend of tnc) changed his name to Ching Chong later, but there was a record showing for name changes.
Thanks. Wow, that is pretty bad. Best surefire way to make a mistake even worse is to try and cover it up.
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On December 04 2018 11:07 SpeaKEaSY wrote:Actually, looking at it again, Valve's reasoning does not add up. The way I interpreted it, Valve offered them the ability to sub someone in with no penalty, but TNC not finding someone and trying to cover up the infraction caused them to rescind their offer and instead punish them directly. However, TNC's manager apologized for the coverup on November 13, and Valve apparently made the offer last Tuesday, so Nov 27. If the coverup was such a big factor leading to the ban and docking of points, why even make that offer 2 weeks after they admit to and apologize for doing it? It's not like TNC was doing nothing either, as recently as earlier today they mentioned they were still waiting to hear back from IMBATV to work on a resolution. Am I misreading/misunderstanding something here?
the government involvement on ban, life threatening spread was unconfirmed rumors... i have yet found a any source in cited Chinese...
which means... there was never (or wouldnt have been) a ban on kuku
all the shit was made up by tnc (and few twitts)..
practically speaking, it is very difficult for an average scaled event in Chongqing (some one in charge of this in the government is fairly low ranked) to negotiate a visa ban (to the foreign ministry) .... think of a mid tier municipal government negotiating with federal government for a visa ban... kuku incidence is... too small for this... and Chinese government will never say things like "we cannot guarantee the safety of certain person"....
thats why I have been completely skeptical about the whole rumor, my guess was tnc making shit up and I was probably right.. the western community has been played by tnc's moral/victim card.
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Vatican City State1573 Posts
will it be a nice major ?
Grand, Cap, Blitz, OD already confirmed that they will not attend
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On December 04 2018 11:27 sunrazgriz wrote:
will it be a nice major ?
Grand, Cap, Blitz, OD already confirmed that they will not attend
i have attended ti2 and ti6 in person... it does not seem like we lack of casting talent.. tobi+syndren ld etc...
i hope these casters dont attend and learn a lesson... put the ideology stereotype aside and stop pretending to be a hero without using a brain... the Chinese hate is almost automatic when it is something about Chinese government.
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Lmao. Its those casters loss.
Its opportunity for HoN casters to come into the limelight.
Valve finally stepped in and say no in very stern manner.
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thats good for him... put all the shit aside, it is everyones loss (thanks to the twits and tnc i guess) not seeing this talent perform on stage.
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a series of stupid mistakes got kuku this to be honest.
the drama wasn't even him to begin with rofl
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On December 04 2018 10:33 gulati wrote:
both china and tnc are equally guilty. i have no respect for valve, either.
this is a videogame. not politics. apologize, grow a pair, and move the fuck on.
Almost spot on
But
I hav respect for valv
It takes an experienced pair to hold back and try to nudge other parties into nice n chill people first
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On December 04 2018 12:41 550 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 10:33 gulati wrote:
both china and tnc are equally guilty. i have no respect for valve, either.
this is a videogame. not politics. apologize, grow a pair, and move the fuck on. Almost spot on But I hav respect for valv It takes an experienced pair to hold back and try to nudge other parties into nice n chill people first
Its actually looks so bad on them because they are the leaders but they did not take charge early enoygh. That's why the mess escalated.
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On December 04 2018 11:24 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 11:07 SpeaKEaSY wrote:Actually, looking at it again, Valve's reasoning does not add up. The way I interpreted it, Valve offered them the ability to sub someone in with no penalty, but TNC not finding someone and trying to cover up the infraction caused them to rescind their offer and instead punish them directly. However, TNC's manager apologized for the coverup on November 13, and Valve apparently made the offer last Tuesday, so Nov 27. If the coverup was such a big factor leading to the ban and docking of points, why even make that offer 2 weeks after they admit to and apologize for doing it? It's not like TNC was doing nothing either, as recently as earlier today they mentioned they were still waiting to hear back from IMBATV to work on a resolution. Am I misreading/misunderstanding something here? the government involvement on ban, life threatening spread was unconfirmed rumors... i have yet found a any source in cited Chinese... which means... there was never (or wouldnt have been) a ban on kuku all the shit was made up by tnc (and few twitts).. practically speaking, it is very difficult for an average scaled event in Chongqing (some one in charge of this in the government is fairly low ranked) to negotiate a visa ban (to the foreign ministry) .... think of a mid tier municipal government negotiating with federal government for a visa ban... kuku incidence is... too small for this... and Chinese government will never say things like "we cannot guarantee the safety of certain person".... thats why I have been completely skeptical about the whole rumor, my guess was tnc making shit up and I was probably right.. the western community has been played by tnc's moral/victim card.
do you think RedEye is lying?
While I agree that the rumors lack hard evidence (at least to us the general public), I think Valve's response is questionable and inadequate. They deny that the government banned Kuku, but they didn't deny a bunch of the other rumors floating around that have in part been talked about by people who have something to lose by being wrong about this. By not denying these other rumors, it's at best an inadequate response and a missed opportunity, and at worst admission by omission.
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interesting how valve's response is also exactly what china wants and yet china isnt mentioned at all, guess money speaks louder than anything else.
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On December 04 2018 13:39 SpeaKEaSY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 11:24 HolyPepsi wrote:On December 04 2018 11:07 SpeaKEaSY wrote:Actually, looking at it again, Valve's reasoning does not add up. The way I interpreted it, Valve offered them the ability to sub someone in with no penalty, but TNC not finding someone and trying to cover up the infraction caused them to rescind their offer and instead punish them directly. However, TNC's manager apologized for the coverup on November 13, and Valve apparently made the offer last Tuesday, so Nov 27. If the coverup was such a big factor leading to the ban and docking of points, why even make that offer 2 weeks after they admit to and apologize for doing it? It's not like TNC was doing nothing either, as recently as earlier today they mentioned they were still waiting to hear back from IMBATV to work on a resolution. Am I misreading/misunderstanding something here? the government involvement on ban, life threatening spread was unconfirmed rumors... i have yet found a any source in cited Chinese... which means... there was never (or wouldnt have been) a ban on kuku all the shit was made up by tnc (and few twitts).. practically speaking, it is very difficult for an average scaled event in Chongqing (some one in charge of this in the government is fairly low ranked) to negotiate a visa ban (to the foreign ministry) .... think of a mid tier municipal government negotiating with federal government for a visa ban... kuku incidence is... too small for this... and Chinese government will never say things like "we cannot guarantee the safety of certain person".... thats why I have been completely skeptical about the whole rumor, my guess was tnc making shit up and I was probably right.. the western community has been played by tnc's moral/victim card. do you think RedEye is lying? https://twitter.com/PaulChaloner/status/1069740272525950976While I agree that the rumors lack hard evidence (at least to us the general public), I think Valve's response is questionable and inadequate. They deny that the government banned Kuku, but they didn't deny a bunch of the other rumors floating around that have in part been talked about by people who have something to lose by being wrong about this. By not denying these other rumors, it's at best an inadequate response and a missed opportunity, and at worst admission by omission.
I had to scroll back up and see if this was Plansix lol. U talk like him
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I'm incredibly disappointed in Valve. Kuku had to be banned. It was by far the best solution for the heath of competitive dota 2, even if one disagrees with it on principle (as I do). But this statement is just a complete mess. It contradicts itself and quite frankly I'm sure Valve is being disingenuous if not outright lying.
First of all, TNC's botched coverup was almost a month ago. If that was such a huge issue to Valve, that should have been the end of things. Kuku or the organization itself should have been banned and that could have been that. However, Valve themselves state that last Tuesday they offered to let TNC play the event with a stand-in and no DPC point reduction.
To me this is incredibly telling. It's clear from following this game for years that the last thing Valve likes to do is get involved. It takes nuclear stuff like tournaments issuing DMCA takedowns or teams competing in the wrong region to get them to say anything. They wanted to lay low at all costs to avoid alienating either China or the West. Their offer to TNC was obviously an attempt to entice them into using a stand-in of their own volition, hopefully satisfying fans from both sides.
For whatever reason, TNC declined, and I feel that they're being punished by Valve for not accepting the offer. Valve clearly didn't have a problem with TNC's coverup, as they made what could be construed as a generous offer to have TNC compete even after having 3 weeks to "follow the situation" and think about it. What set Valve off was TNC not going along with their plan, forcing Valve's hand into action they knew would have negative consequences with Western customers.
I also think Valve is being intentionally misleading about Kuku not having been banned by the Chinese government. If it was just one tweet from Cyborgmatt, then maybe. But between Redeye, EE, KBBQ, and Cyborgmatt, there's a pretty good track record of delivering reliable information. While Kuku may never have been banned officially, statements like "We can't guarantee your safety if you come" are a clear attempt at intimidation. Imbatv BBC's comments clearly show that there is bad blood. While Valve may be correct in saying "Kuku was not banned by the Chinese government," I believe that they're intentionally omitting a pertinent statement. I believe that while he may never have been banned officially, he was always going to be banned.
Again, I'm not upset that Kuku was banned. I am upset that Valve has lost control of the competitive Dota 2 scene. I'm upset about the precedent this sets for Chinese LANs, especially with TI9 located in Shanghai. I'm very upset that Valve stepped in at the last moment and said "He's not getting banned by the government, we're banning him!" And I'm mostly mad because Valve apparently thinks I'm stupid enough to buy what they're selling. I love dota 2. I've logged thousands of hours and I've bought every compendium since TI3 (which was the first they released) and most of the battle passes. But I'm seriously questioning whether I'm OK with giving Valve money right now.
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Best decision from Valve possible at this point. it's a shame that they left it so late though.
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Poland3748 Posts
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I'm actually OK with kuku being banned, but not about them being penalised. Valve is implying that the right thing to do was for tnc to just bench kuku. The thing is why should they do so? Valve didn't say he can't play, TOs can't say he is banned. So valve expects tnc to find a stand in, but they have every right to try to play with kuku too.
Overall valve statement is pretty bad.
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On December 04 2018 09:29 Latham wrote:
Liquid stepped in and punished Mind_Control almost immediately (I wanna say in 24h, but might have been 48h) and recognised his wrong 100% and punished him according to their own rules. Also I tihnk they made him make some form of public apology?
Kuku or TNC tried to weasel out of the punishment and backlash by covering the thing up at first, and now waiting for the storm to blow over (judging from volvo's post) which apparently pissed off the whole of China because of their moral code or whatever it is aaand the wait pissed off volvo.
The other dude (I forgot his name?) came out and apologised for his remarks so China's angry mob let him off the hook.
This post is completely off the topic but i just need to say it out because interference from Chinese government is unacceptable.
Just a reminder about Chinese government and their "morale code"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests
I dont want anyone to have moral such as theirs.
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@above me
still theres alot of sane people
(not sure about some places)
(although u might box them in)
maybe they dont do forums so much,
and problematic ones are noted
and trust valve to know the complete picture, it might not be as big as you think it is, but they also definitely feel the same way you do,
all in all, mm
edit: do know that some issues arent as simple as you read it is, but dear GOD when will it ever end
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I also think that things said in pubs should be red more like trolling than actual statements. I mean c'mon we all said things, just to piss of a guy or two, and never ment them. However the reaction of the Chinese community seems a bit like the Holywood reacting an year ago to Kevin Spacey may or may not spanked a guy on the ass some 30 years ago. The overraction came after Harvey Weinstein bullshitz came to see the world. This seems much bigger discrimination than the suspicion of sexual harassment. I remember some other guy got sacked after a young actress came to his hotel room @ 10PM expecting to talk about work... I mean c'mon if you invite someone to your home for a "coffee" after a date, noone expect that you will actually have coffee?
Back on the subject - people talk trash when they are playing with friends, or in pubs. Thats a fact and will not change. If someone decides to get offended by it and wastes almost a month to entire community it is on them. However - i agree with Valve's desigion to punish TNC after trying to cover it up, and basically lie to the community stating unchecked facts.
On December 04 2018 16:02 warrior4093 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 09:29 Latham wrote:
Liquid stepped in and punished Mind_Control almost immediately (I wanna say in 24h, but might have been 48h) and recognised his wrong 100% and punished him according to their own rules. Also I tihnk they made him make some form of public apology?
Kuku or TNC tried to weasel out of the punishment and backlash by covering the thing up at first, and now waiting for the storm to blow over (judging from volvo's post) which apparently pissed off the whole of China because of their moral code or whatever it is aaand the wait pissed off volvo.
The other dude (I forgot his name?) came out and apologised for his remarks so China's angry mob let him off the hook. This post is completely off the topic but i just need to say it out because interference from Chinese government is unacceptable. Just a reminder about Chinese government and their "morale code" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protestsI dont want anyone to have moral such as theirs.
Thats what communism does to you. I live in a country that that had that kind of regime for 45 years, up until 30 years ago.
Just a brief example - in '86 thousands of local muslims were forced to change their names and even leave their homes. I'm not going to tell you what happened to those who resisted. This regime just f*cks with people heads and most of them don't realise whats actually going on. Just check North Korea, they actually believe that they landed on the Sun, during the night, ofcourse, as during the day it is way too hot.
No matter that some things changed, and things are no longer brutal - officialy "The Party" is still in power in China.
Just stating some facts.
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On December 04 2018 15:19 ampson wrote:
I'm incredibly disappointed in Valve. Kuku had to be banned. It was by far the best solution for the heath of competitive dota 2, even if one disagrees with it on principle (as I do). But this statement is just a complete mess. It contradicts itself and quite frankly I'm sure Valve is being disingenuous if not outright lying.
First of all, TNC's botched coverup was almost a month ago. If that was such a huge issue to Valve, that should have been the end of things. Kuku or the organization itself should have been banned and that could have been that. However, Valve themselves state that last Tuesday they offered to let TNC play the event with a stand-in and no DPC point reduction.
To me this is incredibly telling. It's clear from following this game for years that the last thing Valve likes to do is get involved. It takes nuclear stuff like tournaments issuing DMCA takedowns or teams competing in the wrong region to get them to say anything. They wanted to lay low at all costs to avoid alienating either China or the West. Their offer to TNC was obviously an attempt to entice them into using a stand-in of their own volition, hopefully satisfying fans from both sides.
For whatever reason, TNC declined, and I feel that they're being punished by Valve for not accepting the offer. Valve clearly didn't have a problem with TNC's coverup, as they made what could be construed as a generous offer to have TNC compete even after having 3 weeks to "follow the situation" and think about it. What set Valve off was TNC not going along with their plan, forcing Valve's hand into action they knew would have negative consequences with Western customers.
I also think Valve is being intentionally misleading about Kuku not having been banned by the Chinese government. If it was just one tweet from Cyborgmatt, then maybe. But between Redeye, EE, KBBQ, and Cyborgmatt, there's a pretty good track record of delivering reliable information. While Kuku may never have been banned officially, statements like "We can't guarantee your safety if you come" are a clear attempt at intimidation. Imbatv BBC's comments clearly show that there is bad blood. While Valve may be correct in saying "Kuku was not banned by the Chinese government," I believe that they're intentionally omitting a pertinent statement. I believe that while he may never have been banned officially, he was always going to be banned.
Again, I'm not upset that Kuku was banned. I am upset that Valve has lost control of the competitive Dota 2 scene. I'm upset about the precedent this sets for Chinese LANs, especially with TI9 located in Shanghai. I'm very upset that Valve stepped in at the last moment and said "He's not getting banned by the government, we're banning him!" And I'm mostly mad because Valve apparently thinks I'm stupid enough to buy what they're selling. I love dota 2. I've logged thousands of hours and I've bought every compendium since TI3 (which was the first they released) and most of the battle passes. But I'm seriously questioning whether I'm OK with giving Valve money right now.
100% this. I don't get the logic behind explicitly telling TNC they wouldn't get a point reduction multiple weeks after everyone is aware TNC lied. If there's no penalty for playing with him, and there's no penalty for playing without him, why on earth would TNC play without him? Wouldn't it be worse for "competitive integrity" if TnC fielded a worse roster than normal for 'no reason'?
According to Valve what occurred is that they told TNC there would be no penalty for playing without Kuku, but didn't imply to them there would be anything wrong with playing with him. Its like the fucking shocked pikachu meme, you mean to tell me TNC wanted to play with their real roster when they had no reason to play with a stand in? Color me surprised. Maybe Valve should have told them the offer they were giving was a one time deal (like a plea deal), and that if they didn't accept the offer to play with a stand in at no reduction, there was no guarantee it was going to be okay in the end if that was their real intention.
EDIT: The more I think about it the more Valve should have set it up like a plea deal if TNC's cover up was the real problem. Just (as Valve) tell them that they know they (TNC) covered the story up, so if they just play without Kuku this one tournament without a penalty, to let this whole thing blow over, we'll call it square. That way as Valve you can further distance yourself from the outcome, and say if TNC chose to say no it was TNC's fault this was occurring, not China's, not Valve's
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On December 04 2018 11:24 HolyPepsi wrote:
thats why I have been completely skeptical about the whole rumor, my guess was tnc making shit up and I was probably right.. the western community has been played by tnc's moral/victim card.
The western community was played by China taking such grievous offense that people were able to believe anything and everything.
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On December 04 2018 16:24 NInoff wrote:
I also think that things said in pubs should be red more like trolling than actual statements. I mean c'mon we all said things, just to piss of a guy or two, and never ment them. However the reaction of the Chinese community seems a bit like the Holywood reacting an year ago to Kevin Spacey may or may not spanked a guy on the ass some 30 years ago. The overraction came after Harvey Weinstein bullshitz came to see the world. This seems much bigger discrimination than the suspicion of sexual harassment. I remember some other guy got sacked after a young actress came to his hotel room @ 10PM expecting to talk about work... I mean c'mon if you invite someone to your home for a "coffee" after a date, noone expect that you will actually have coffee?
"allegedly we have all made racist remarks and thats ok"
"kevin spacey is the real victim"
"after 10pm the only thing you do with women is fuck them"
what the fuck is wrong with you?
edit: if there is something that we can take from this incident it is that too many people have no trouble with racism and have trouble not pouring out their whole political agenda for an issue that is very clear-cut.
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TBH Kuku is just a sacrificial goat which cannot be avoided. It happens all over the human history, when someone break a rule there is a chance that they will be punished heavily to remind others not to follow suit. Of course everyone has their own versions of stories, it really comes down to what you want to believe. IMO TNC has played this series of event very poorly. Their public posts got nothing other than their own countrymen's support and to everyone else its just a laughable matter because one less top level player means there's a better chance that the team they support gets a better result.
I already mentioned somewhere else that the Major is not going to boycotted, nor is TI9. Those caster who spoke out so soon without knowing the whole situation makes them look very immature and stupid. The smart ones have kept their mouth shut until there is official announcement. There is no point crying for TNC now as both the team and Kuku has accepted this punishment which doesn't seem so unfair as no one has objected this officially other than their fans.
As a public figure, you just got to be smart. Even in China, many popular streamers has fall from the peak of the mountain right down to the bottom because they have said something stupid or did some stupid thing in their streams. The internet is just so transparent now that nothing can get away. If you cannot control your mouth or your actions and did something stupid, expect a big reaction from netizens. If you don't suit this industry/career, there is plenty others out there that does not expose you on the internet. This is pretty much a social/morale issue not just a gaming issue like many mentioned. As a public figure you are the role model of all your fans. Putting one foot in the wrong place could destroy your career so everyone needs to learn their lesson from this incident. You can always have fun and stuff without being stupid, just got to be smart.
Just my 2 cent worth, don't flame. 
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Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene.
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Guys, please just put it to rest. Finally the big daddy Valve stepped in and put all those things that might/could happen into dust. It's over, TNC get punished as well as Kuku and we should go back talking about how PA is bullshit hero.
Anyway, I am not surprised it happened this way. Kuku was caught twice promoting racism when Valve has made a statement on racism itself and then TNC tried to wiggle their ways out. Valve finally lost their temper and just outright punished them. If you think this is not fair, you should read about LoL's case where a going-to-be-pro-player banned for life just because he said nigger in pub. He has no chance to enter pro boot camp or whatever those at Riot called it.
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On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene.
"i cant make racist remarks anymore so i wont play dota"
good riddance
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene.
there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism.
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On December 04 2018 18:48 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 16:24 NInoff wrote:
I also think that things said in pubs should be red more like trolling than actual statements. I mean c'mon we all said things, just to piss of a guy or two, and never ment them. However the reaction of the Chinese community seems a bit like the Holywood reacting an year ago to Kevin Spacey may or may not spanked a guy on the ass some 30 years ago. The overraction came after Harvey Weinstein bullshitz came to see the world. This seems much bigger discrimination than the suspicion of sexual harassment. I remember some other guy got sacked after a young actress came to his hotel room @ 10PM expecting to talk about work... I mean c'mon if you invite someone to your home for a "coffee" after a date, noone expect that you will actually have coffee?
"allegedly we have all made racist remarks and thats ok" "kevin spacey is the real victim" "after 10pm the only thing you do with women is fuck them" what the fuck is wrong with you? edit: if there is something that we can take from this incident it is that too many people have no trouble with racism and have trouble not pouring out their whole political agenda for an issue that is very clear-cut.
Look at you, the morale instance of dota 2. What the fuck is wrong with you? This is still a video game, and those pro players are normal guys like us, who normaly don't have someone that tells them what they are allowed to say. This is not real sports, even if some people want to make it sound like that. Also it doesn't change the fact, that many things are said in pubs, you often don't think about it, in the heat of the moment. and for me ching chong is still not racist, not changing my opinion here. it may not have been nice what he said, but that's a big difference from calling it racism straight away. In my eyes, the definition of racism these days depends on how political correct you are. Racial slur is not racism for me. Maybe that's because I am german, we are more or less used to getting insulted with racial slur since ww2. If kuku said something like "chinese dogs" or "shitty slit eyes" that would not be ok of course. of course, real racism is bad, and needs to be punished. and plz, don't compare kuku to Kevin Spacey ok? That's ridicilous...
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It's pretty clear that Valve isn't just talking about the cover-up by TNC, but some of their most recent statements (specifically, they all but accuse TNC of lying about being told that Kuku's security won't be guaranteed).
As far as RedEye's statement goes, the burden of proof is really on him and CyborgMatt. I fully believe that there were elements that probably wanted it to happen, but since no formal statement was ever issued, and TNC, Valve, and Col all have said that they're wrong, they need to put up if they want to be taken seriously.
Also, Kuku had something of a melt down on Twitter then deleted his entire twitter. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ZKXtroZg.jpg)
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On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism.
That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way.
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On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way.
the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it.
@hunter_x: at least try to read the post i was referring to before unloading your frustration. some of your hot takes...y i k e s
and still ignoring the worst cover up attempt in the history huh?
User was warned for this post
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On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. @hunter_x: at least try to read the post i was referring to before unloading your frustration. some of your hot takes...y i k e s
I have read all your posts, doesn't change anything about what I said. you are a person who doesn't accept other opinions when it comes to this matter, that is clear by now. the world isn't only black and white, same with this topic. You really make it easy for yourself, if you always go by definitions.
User was warned for this post
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Some people have pointed it out already but a rulebook with clear boundaries and code of conduct that also points out the consequences would have more than likely prevented this. If not the issue itself, then at least the escalation of the issues to the point it is now.
Valve really needs to be proactive, not reactive about things like this. People are right to point out previous incidents and Valve's reactions there being way less drastic. Also if this is now turning into "TNC as a team/organisation lied/misrepresented their position for their own gain" issue then why is there a player ban in the first place.
Personally I feel like the ban was too harsh, but I'm okay with it if it is the consistent solution in issues like this from now on. If sometimes someone gets away with a slap on the wrist and other times they are kept out of one of the six most important events of the year it is hard to feel that the same rules are applied to everyone. Racism and using racist expressions to hurt other people are big problems in dota, and will be until Valve takes heftier measures to curb it. I hope that they use this incident to also promote better behaviour in pubs and maybe revise their report systems.
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what a farce banning kuku in the first place imo...
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Poland3748 Posts
Can someone tell my why calling someone ching chong in non sanctioned game results in such calamity? I mean it's rude but that's pretty much it. Am I missing cultural context for this one?
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In professional play there should be a real punishment if someone breaks the code of conduct. From my perspective it's never okay to use racist language or lie to officials. We all know that Dota is a place where a lot of bad language is happening in game but that doesn't mean that it's a valid thing to do. Wishing someone cancer or using racist vocals isn't okay. It's also not cool btw ...
Just because you are good at Dota doesn't mean that you are a nice person (eg. Ritsu). As a professional player you are a role model and if you don't react in a proper time in a proper manner to your mistakes then you should be punished. If not, then it will happen again and every time they will try to defend themselves with a past case where no one punished the misbehavior.
I think Valve wanted to give TNC a chance to correct their own mistakes but they failed horrible. They waited with their apology until they qualified and never had the intention to replace Kuku for the Major, even knowing that they fucked up. So yeah, the ban was predictable and TNC should stop defending themselves in this case. The ship is already sinking and the damage you take will only increase.
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On December 04 2018 10:01 DucK- wrote:
Same. Tnc with all the misinformation to fan the flames didn't help their cause. Finally valve's hand is forced and they have spoken. I still think the Chinese overreacted (social vigilantes...) and a ban will not help mend relations, but at least this means closure to this bullshit.
That said valve is conveniently pushing most of the blame to tnc when they played a big part with their passiveness. Ay everyone fucked up. Chinese being shit for their reaction, kuku for saying stupid stuff, tnc for how they handled and valve for being ambiguous and no clear rules. Disappointed with all
This
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On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it.
Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate?
In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist.
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On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene.
plz do that... less toxicity in pubs
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist.
perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians
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On December 04 2018 13:39 SpeaKEaSY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 11:24 HolyPepsi wrote:On December 04 2018 11:07 SpeaKEaSY wrote:Actually, looking at it again, Valve's reasoning does not add up. The way I interpreted it, Valve offered them the ability to sub someone in with no penalty, but TNC not finding someone and trying to cover up the infraction caused them to rescind their offer and instead punish them directly. However, TNC's manager apologized for the coverup on November 13, and Valve apparently made the offer last Tuesday, so Nov 27. If the coverup was such a big factor leading to the ban and docking of points, why even make that offer 2 weeks after they admit to and apologize for doing it? It's not like TNC was doing nothing either, as recently as earlier today they mentioned they were still waiting to hear back from IMBATV to work on a resolution. Am I misreading/misunderstanding something here? the government involvement on ban, life threatening spread was unconfirmed rumors... i have yet found a any source in cited Chinese... which means... there was never (or wouldnt have been) a ban on kuku all the shit was made up by tnc (and few twitts).. practically speaking, it is very difficult for an average scaled event in Chongqing (some one in charge of this in the government is fairly low ranked) to negotiate a visa ban (to the foreign ministry) .... think of a mid tier municipal government negotiating with federal government for a visa ban... kuku incidence is... too small for this... and Chinese government will never say things like "we cannot guarantee the safety of certain person".... thats why I have been completely skeptical about the whole rumor, my guess was tnc making shit up and I was probably right.. the western community has been played by tnc's moral/victim card. do you think RedEye is lying? https://twitter.com/PaulChaloner/status/1069740272525950976While I agree that the rumors lack hard evidence (at least to us the general public), I think Valve's response is questionable and inadequate. They deny that the government banned Kuku, but they didn't deny a bunch of the other rumors floating around that have in part been talked about by people who have something to lose by being wrong about this. By not denying these other rumors, it's at best an inadequate response and a missed opportunity, and at worst admission by omission.
Redeye
@PaulChaloner
15h15 hours ago
More
Valve aren't suddenly banning Kuku because his team fucked up. They are banning him because of his actions. The only reason they have had to ban him (in their view) is because they expected TNC to "do the right thing" and not take him to the Major.
In other words, they're saying if they were fully in charge of the scene they would have banned him.
But as they prefer to take a more laid back approach, they trusted the team to do this.
Because it didn't happen, they stepped in.
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it is one word against another. is redeye more credible than valve? in case if you dont get, it is the whole tnc management + western ideological stereotype against "evil china" banned kuku. it is so easy to blame on chinese government on every rumor isnt it. this applies to redeye too who think hes mature and smart. by making this statement basically redeye is acusing valve is lying... which is a childish behavior (he didnt get what he want and he couldnt attendn to chongqing major).. what evidence he saw? a twitt? a chat screen shot? whos accountable for the chat and what posistion is he/she in to say certain things? how do you know if it is not just someones intrepretation?
btw Godz is a lot smarter.
leaving a safe door for himself to step out of this mess while showing some curtisy to the neoliberalism
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On December 04 2018 23:50 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist. perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians
You miss the point. The origin of the expression has been mentioned a bunch of times now. This obviously eplains why chinese are so offended by the phrase, but this is completely unrelated to my argument.
First of all, historical context does not equal current usage of a phrase. And secondly, the historical way in which the expression was used does not matter unless you actually know of it and also mean it in the way in which it was used back then.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On December 05 2018 00:02 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 23:50 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist. perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians You miss the point. The origin of the expression has been mentioned a bunch of times now. This obviously eplains why chinese are so offended by the phrase, but this is completely unrelated to my argument. First of all, historical context does not equal current usage of a phrase. And secondly, the historical way in which the expression was used does not matter unless you actually know of it and also mean it in the way in which it was used back then.
i agree that intent matters a lot, but the fact remains, that he made a remark that you acknowledge can reasonably be interpreted to be racist, in a pub that can be viewed by thousands of people. it's a farcry from a un-PC joke shared between a few friends in a private setting. that said, if he had simply apologised and acknowledged what he did was offensive, i think that would have been the end of the matter. instead, his team tried to cover it up, and from his now-deleted tweets, he's shown no signs that he's truly remorseful and feels he's the victim here.
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In the end, it's the Chinese community and the Chinese government who look full of themselves. They achieved the opposite of what they wanted imo. Also it's much easier to forgive a young lad than a stupid angry mob.
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On December 05 2018 00:14 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 00:02 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 23:50 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist. perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians You miss the point. The origin of the expression has been mentioned a bunch of times now. This obviously eplains why chinese are so offended by the phrase, but this is completely unrelated to my argument. First of all, historical context does not equal current usage of a phrase. And secondly, the historical way in which the expression was used does not matter unless you actually know of it and also mean it in the way in which it was used back then. i agree that intent matters a lot, but the fact remains, that he made a remark that you acknowledge can reasonably be interpreted to be racist, in a pub that can be viewed by thousands of people. it's a farcry from a un-PC joke shared between a few friends in a private setting. that said, if he had simply apologised and acknowledged what he did was offensive, i think that would have been the end of the matter. instead, his team tried to cover it up, and from his now-deleted tweets, he's shown no signs that he's truly remorseful and feels he's the victim here.
I mostly agree. I still believe it was not meant to be offensive by him and was blown out of proportion. Not manning up was a definite mistake however.
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It scares me that so many seem to think that political correctness in its current form is a good thing. Who defines what's offensive? There's boatloads of things that offend me but I don't go around whining about it.
If we make it a crime to be edgy in our expressions, you take away a lot of what it means to be human. In order to see and know the light, you must know, and be able to express, darkness as well. Freedom of speech is by far the best thing our "free" western societies have produced and now we're gonna go back on that. Doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
A lot of humor is based in the tragic, the outrageous, the obnoxious. Growing up i can't count the amount of times I've stereotyped, mimicked, or in other ways made fun of people from other groups than my own. That doesn't mean there was any ill intent and until PC culture (an extension of female neuroticism taking over the world) it was never perceived that way either. Flied lice, or waddap dawg, or what have you, are just fun. It's not meant to be offensive but it is just fun to caricaturize and parodize. It's harmless, as long as people are educated properly as to the difference between words and violence.
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On December 04 2018 16:33 chipmonklord17 wrote:
According to Valve what occurred is that they told TNC there would be no penalty for playing without Kuku, but didn't imply to them there would be anything wrong with playing with him. Its like the fucking shocked pikachu meme, you mean to tell me TNC wanted to play with their real roster when they had no reason to play with a stand in? Color me surprised. Maybe Valve should have told them the offer they were giving was a one time deal (like a plea deal), and that if they didn't accept the offer to play with a stand in at no reduction, there was no guarantee it was going to be okay in the end if that was their real intention.
EDIT: The more I think about it the more Valve should have set it up like a plea deal if TNC's cover up was the real problem. Just (as Valve) tell them that they know they (TNC) covered the story up, so if they just play without Kuku this one tournament without a penalty, to let this whole thing blow over, we'll call it square. That way as Valve you can further distance yourself from the outcome, and say if TNC chose to say no it was TNC's fault this was occurring, not China's, not Valve's
It's not Valve's job to take actions on TNC's part. They are not responsible for TNC or any of their members.
Valve and the TO/ChongQuing government whoever gave them pointer in the direction they are supposed to go and salvage the situation by their own accord (pretty important if you consider how they handled the situation before) and TNC didn't want any of that good shit. They went full "lets be selfish WEEEE" instead of showing some respect - so Valve bitchslapped them.
Also in your edit you are forgetting that the story didn't happen between TNC and Valve, there is nothing both could call square.
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On December 05 2018 01:04 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 00:14 ahswtini wrote:On December 05 2018 00:02 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 23:50 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist. perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians You miss the point. The origin of the expression has been mentioned a bunch of times now. This obviously eplains why chinese are so offended by the phrase, but this is completely unrelated to my argument. First of all, historical context does not equal current usage of a phrase. And secondly, the historical way in which the expression was used does not matter unless you actually know of it and also mean it in the way in which it was used back then. i agree that intent matters a lot, but the fact remains, that he made a remark that you acknowledge can reasonably be interpreted to be racist, in a pub that can be viewed by thousands of people. it's a farcry from a un-PC joke shared between a few friends in a private setting. that said, if he had simply apologised and acknowledged what he did was offensive, i think that would have been the end of the matter. instead, his team tried to cover it up, and from his now-deleted tweets, he's shown no signs that he's truly remorseful and feels he's the victim here. I mostly agree. I still believe it was not meant to be offensive by him and was blown out of proportion. Not manning up was a definite mistake however.
would you care to explain what his actual intension was by using the phrase?
i dont understand why you would think he doesnt "know" about it. two pro players from the sea region used the phrase in a span of days? and we kinda know that there is a certain tension between china and the sea countries.
the definition on wiktionary: (offensive, ethnic slur) Mimicking Chinese speech.
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Banning someone for a joke! Damn!
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TNC is not the good guys, but it seems like valve is upset at TNC for not doing Valve's job for them. KuKu suspended for saying racist thing and trying to cover it up, sounds fine to me. Valve taking some high horse? Someone's peeing on my shoes and telling me it's raining. I really wish Skem was going to see if the TNC cover up is really the issue or if it's pressure from other sources.
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On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn!
For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke...
If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?!
If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it.
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On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it.
different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous.
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tncs team manager just got fired
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On December 05 2018 03:31 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it. different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous.
Be careful man, or you will receive a warning. I just got one myself, for "attacking" a user in this thread.
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On December 05 2018 03:31 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it. different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous.
if you would be so kind to answer my questions. thanks!
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On December 05 2018 03:39 HolyPepsi wrote:
tncs team manager just got fired
That guy's been fired for ages
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On December 05 2018 02:16 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2018 16:33 chipmonklord17 wrote:
According to Valve what occurred is that they told TNC there would be no penalty for playing without Kuku, but didn't imply to them there would be anything wrong with playing with him. Its like the fucking shocked pikachu meme, you mean to tell me TNC wanted to play with their real roster when they had no reason to play with a stand in? Color me surprised. Maybe Valve should have told them the offer they were giving was a one time deal (like a plea deal), and that if they didn't accept the offer to play with a stand in at no reduction, there was no guarantee it was going to be okay in the end if that was their real intention.
EDIT: The more I think about it the more Valve should have set it up like a plea deal if TNC's cover up was the real problem. Just (as Valve) tell them that they know they (TNC) covered the story up, so if they just play without Kuku this one tournament without a penalty, to let this whole thing blow over, we'll call it square. That way as Valve you can further distance yourself from the outcome, and say if TNC chose to say no it was TNC's fault this was occurring, not China's, not Valve's
It's not Valve's job to take actions on TNC's part. They are not responsible for TNC or any of their members. Valve and the TO/ChongQuing government whoever gave them pointer in the direction they are supposed to go and salvage the situation by their own accord (pretty important if you consider how they handled the situation before) and TNC didn't want any of that good shit. They went full "lets be selfish WEEEE" instead of showing some respect - so Valve bitchslapped them. Also in your edit you are forgetting that the story didn't happen between TNC and Valve, there is nothing both could call square.
It is Valve's job to correctly and FULLY inform the teams playing their game of the 'rules' of their game. They can't omit information to TNC (that they'd ban Kuku if TNC chose to play with him), and then be mad at TNC when they chose to play with him. Either you do what I suggested and say "Either take the offer to play without him now or risk us changing our minds later" or tell them from the get go that they don't want Kuku there. You can't not tell someone the rules and then be mad when they broke them.
And in a plea deal, you take a lesser punishment offered to you in exchange for definitely not having the more harsh punishment. What they have to "call square" is the entire situation. Valve would be saying to TNC that at the current moment they feel like TNC should play without him, but will offer them no DPC point penalty for playing without him. Its a lesser punishment (compared to the ban and point reduction they got), but still a punishment. Valve still gets to punish TNC by making them field a roster with a stand in, but TNC doesn't get punished too harshly for a situation they've already apologized for. In addition, like I said in my previous post, if they don't go along with the deal and then Valve decides to ban Kuku, Valve can then say the ball was in TNC's court and they botched it.
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I don't agree with the idea that Valve shouldn't be allowed to act without a team breaking explicit rules. Requiring explicit rules causes people to take a minimalistic approach to decency: they will only do as much as they need to. It's actually better to allow a certain vagueness in the ruleset, as this forces people to err on the side of safety. It also gives some flexibility in case of an unforseen but clearly undesirable outcome.
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On December 05 2018 05:34 Sr18 wrote:
I don't agree with the idea that Valve shouldn't be allowed to act without a team breaking explicit rules. Requiring explicit rules causes people to take a minimalistic approach to decency: they will only do as much as they need to. It's actually better to allow a certain vagueness in the ruleset, as this forces people to err on the side of safety. It also gives some flexibility in case of an unforseen but clearly undesirable outcome.
That can be built into the rule set. Having clear lines that result in instant bans such as match fixing ot violence at an event. Then have that racist, bullying or other similar harmful language will result in actions on a case by case basis with a minimum punishment of a fine or removal from the next Valve event.
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At least with the Chinese being happy now, the Steam launch in China is off to a pretty good start :D
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On December 05 2018 04:54 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 03:31 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it. different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous. if you would be so kind to answer my questions. thanks!
TBH I don't think there is a point, since you will insinst on your POV and I will insist on mine, but since you're asking:
To me it's quite obvious that what he meant was: "WTF, I can't understand a word you're saying." just like thousands of players type: "wtf russky" in pubs every single day. The fact that it was used twice within a week has no relevance whatsoever.
Why do you insist that he meant: "I hate chinese people"? What is your evidence that kuku is racist? Would you agree that there is a certain tension between black and white Americans? Doesn't mean that every american is a racist.
And lastly: Not only does "mimicking the chinese language" not even remotely equal racism, the fact that you quote wiktionary as a source makes the value of your post mostly a comic one.
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On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist.
Exactly.
These days if you ask a girl out you can be sexual harasser. If you state "I am a man" someone that doesn't feel the same way may get offended and so on.
The world is going in to the wrong direction these days, things are going way too liberal and that will bite us some day. Being tolerant is one thing but there have to boundaries.
I won't be surprised some day random dog owner suing David Caero for choosing his nickname.
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United States15275 Posts
On December 05 2018 05:34 Sr18 wrote:
I don't agree with the idea that Valve shouldn't be allowed to act without a team breaking explicit rules. Requiring explicit rules causes people to take a minimalistic approach to decency: they will only do as much as they need to. It's actually better to allow a certain vagueness in the ruleset, as this forces people to err on the side of safety. It also gives some flexibility in case of an unforseen but clearly undesirable outcome.
A) People "do as much as they need to" when the parameters of any code of conduct are vague. The worst outcome is if the lack of specificity gives the company enough leverage to act in arbitrary ways that fall under the penumbra of the original phrasing.
B) Your justification for why the ruleset ought to be nebulous to an extent is completely self-serving for the company and morally indefensible. The distinction between the "letter of the law" and "spirit of the law" is unrelated to training its constituents to be risk-averse and shrink away from possible exposure to externalities.
On December 05 2018 05:42 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 05:34 Sr18 wrote:
I don't agree with the idea that Valve shouldn't be allowed to act without a team breaking explicit rules. Requiring explicit rules causes people to take a minimalistic approach to decency: they will only do as much as they need to. It's actually better to allow a certain vagueness in the ruleset, as this forces people to err on the side of safety. It also gives some flexibility in case of an unforseen but clearly undesirable outcome. That can be built into the rule set. Having clear lines that result in instant bans such as match fixing ot violence at an event. Then have that racist, bullying or other similar harmful language will result in actions on a case by case basis with a minimum punishment of a fine or removal from the next Valve event.
You'll simply create another #MeToo situation where the prospect of ruin is so high, no one will engage in any behavior that could be misinterpreted as violating the ruleset. This will also promote new types of uncouth behavior that are indistinguishable from normal play (e.g. groups of players coincidentally matching up to farm MMR in other regions).
The minimum punishment has to be Valve doing nothing for this to work.
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On December 05 2018 06:01 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 04:54 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 05 2018 03:31 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it. different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous. if you would be so kind to answer my questions. thanks! TBH I don't think there is a point, since you will insinst on your POV and I will insist on mine, but since you're asking: To me it's quite obvious that what he meant was: "WTF, I can't understand a word you're saying." just like thousands of players type: "wtf russky" in pubs every single day. The fact that it was used twice within a week has no relevance whatsoever. Why do you insist that he meant: "I hate chinese people"? What is your evidence that kuku is racist? Would you agree that there is a certain tension between black and white Americans? Doesn't mean that every american is a racist. And lastly: Not only does "mimicking the chinese language" not even remotely equal racism, the fact that you quote wiktionary as a source makes the value of your post mostly a comic one.
it doesnt matter if kuku is racist or not. he used an ethnic slur, has basically shown no remorse and could actually have influence on people who really are racists and think less of chinese people in general. the same goes for the problems in america. would you (im gonna assume you are white) call a black guy in the united states that you dont know the n-word? probably not.
sure lets disregard wiktionary as a source. what about the article that was linked? what about the history you were so quick to disregard? what about all the other incidents where people took real offense after somebody said "ching-chong"?
i probably wont be able to change your mind but dont you think its a bit ridiculous to disregard all this additional information and kukus demeanor in favor of "he just doesnt understand chinese"?
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back to dotes i guess
agree on that dude that said some of em "think" theyre figting racism, but instead just shown emself being questionable n stuff
edit: @belowme
zz dude you dont go and blame people once its over whats the purpose
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Kuku and TnC have really done everything wrong in this situation, I have little to no sympathy for them
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On December 05 2018 01:04 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 00:14 ahswtini wrote:On December 05 2018 00:02 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 23:50 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 23:10 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:40 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 04 2018 20:27 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 04 2018 19:51 ahswtini wrote:On December 04 2018 19:17 RaigiCS wrote:
Boycotting dota until political correctness is banned from the scene. there's overreaching political correctness, and there's outright racism. That's the whole crux of what started the debate though. Perceiving a word as racist is not the same if it wasn't meant in a racist way. the phrase is racist as per definition. regarding the context it was used in its pretty obvious what was meant by it. Is that so? In this case, you should have no trouble quoting this definition for us to end the debate? In any case, it is entirely possible to offend without meaning to. In some places in the world dog, donkey, monkey or goat are bad insults, in others they are a joke. Using a word that some people view as racist does not automatically make you a racist. perhaps a look at the historical way in which it was used https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/07/14/330769890/how-ching-chong-became-the-go-to-slur-for-mocking-east-asians You miss the point. The origin of the expression has been mentioned a bunch of times now. This obviously eplains why chinese are so offended by the phrase, but this is completely unrelated to my argument. First of all, historical context does not equal current usage of a phrase. And secondly, the historical way in which the expression was used does not matter unless you actually know of it and also mean it in the way in which it was used back then. i agree that intent matters a lot, but the fact remains, that he made a remark that you acknowledge can reasonably be interpreted to be racist, in a pub that can be viewed by thousands of people. it's a farcry from a un-PC joke shared between a few friends in a private setting. that said, if he had simply apologised and acknowledged what he did was offensive, i think that would have been the end of the matter. instead, his team tried to cover it up, and from his now-deleted tweets, he's shown no signs that he's truly remorseful and feels he's the victim here. I mostly agree. I still believe it was not meant to be offensive by him and was blown out of proportion. Not manning up was a definite mistake however.
While he might have meant it as a bad joke, it was RIGHT AFTER the skem case, so that throws any lack of knowledge out of the window. Malicious in intent imo. There are jokes and there is just stupidity
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The punishment should fit the crime. If you say racist/overly offensive things you should be muted. Your livelihood and ability to provide for your family should simply be out of the argument. Another disgusting display by valve but at least they punished racism. Only thing I can think of that would be worse would be doing nothing. O wait they already did that... Its all just MindControl
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On December 05 2018 06:55 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 06:01 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 05 2018 04:54 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 05 2018 03:31 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it. different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous. if you would be so kind to answer my questions. thanks! TBH I don't think there is a point, since you will insinst on your POV and I will insist on mine, but since you're asking: To me it's quite obvious that what he meant was: "WTF, I can't understand a word you're saying." just like thousands of players type: "wtf russky" in pubs every single day. The fact that it was used twice within a week has no relevance whatsoever. Why do you insist that he meant: "I hate chinese people"? What is your evidence that kuku is racist? Would you agree that there is a certain tension between black and white Americans? Doesn't mean that every american is a racist. And lastly: Not only does "mimicking the chinese language" not even remotely equal racism, the fact that you quote wiktionary as a source makes the value of your post mostly a comic one. it doesnt matter if kuku is racist or not. he used an ethnic slur, has basically shown no remorse and could actually have influence on people who really are racists and think less of chinese people in general. the same goes for the problems in america. would you (im gonna assume you are white) call a black guy in the united states that you dont know the n-word? probably not. sure lets disregard wiktionary as a source. what about the article that was linked? what about the history you were so quick to disregard? what about all the other incidents where people took real offense after somebody said "ching-chong"? i probably wont be able to change your mind but dont you think its a bit ridiculous to disregard all this additional information and kukus demeanor in favor of "he just doesnt understand chinese"?
I think we were having a bit of a misunderstanding. I am not denying the nature and/or history associated with the phrase nor am I defending what he did.
I also believe that Kuku was definitely in the wrong, first for not apologizing and obviously for that brainless cover-up attempt.
But what I do believe is that his intent was not to offend the Chinese people and also that he did not realize how strongly the Chinese feel about the phrase.
In the end I don't like the way Valve handled this situation at all. True it was the only option they had left to not lose the Chinese market and appease the mob, mostly because they refused to step in while there was still time to do so. I don't believe Valve are happy with the decision, because it could set a dangerous precedent, but it was the only logical way out without risking the tournament.
When they told TNC: you can play with a standin without losing DPC in my opinion it was quite clearly implied that this is what Valve wanted them to do to avoid more drama.
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In the end I don't like the way Valve handled this situation at all. True it was the only option they had left to not lose the Chinese market and appease the mob, mostly because they refused to step in while there was still time to do so. I don't believe Valve are happy with the decision, because it could set a dangerous precedent, but it was the only logical way out without risking the tournament.
When they told TNC: you can play with a standin without losing DPC in my opinion it was quite clearly implied that this is what Valve wanted them to do to avoid more drama.
I think most people misunderstood Valve's statement. To me, Valve was never going to allow Kuku to attend the CQ major. TNC contacted them and asked if they'd get penalised for replacing Kuku, naturally one would think this is what TNC is attempting to do. But no, they went ahead and threw out a heap of false rumors to try and stir up the public to give them a hand. Valve sees this and have no option but to come out and close the case by officially announcing Kuku's ban. Kuku's ban is not entirely because of what TNC did, but collectively of what he did + the team's handling of the entire situation.
Valve has given TNC enough time to fix this issue themselves but they have on multiple occasions refuse to do so. Their public relation team is just horrendous imo. So do not put the blame to Valve, there should be fair bit of communication going around involving TNC, the organisers and Valve. But Valve's statement to me is the one with most authority and integrity. I would not believe what TNC nor the organiser said is 100% true. At least Valve is closer to that 100%.
A slap in the face for a lot of public figures (streamers/caster) tho.
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I'm not sure what to make of this, I have Chinese blood in me and have lots of Chinese friends. However I can't speak Mandarin, and have said "ching chong" as a way to imitate what they're saying sometimes, when describing it and speaking with other people I know, whether they be chinese or non-chinese, it was never a racial slur in my part of the world. It very well may be the same for where Kuku is, and there may never have been that intent of it as a racial slur for him as well.
That said, now that they do know it is a racial slur to some people, they shouldn't try to cover it up, and just man up and apologise. What they did just further exacerbate the issue.
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I agree with valve's ban and they should have done that to begin with but no matter what is said and done inside a video game, government should not have anything to do with it and specially a communism government and regardless off what propaganda they use, we all know what communism actually does so would prefer a community without a government interference cause u know this is not China.
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On December 04 2018 09:53 SpeaKEaSY wrote:
Seems to me like valve punted the football and was hoping TNC would fall on their sword and take the pressure of the situation for everyone's sake, and when that didn't happen they decided to throw TNC back under the bus which they had crawled under rather than drawing the ire of China.
Not going to defend TNC too hard when they were without a doubt unprofessional throughout, but so were valve and the tournament organizers. Still bothered by the fact that the thinly veiled threat of "we can't guarantee his safety" hasn't been addressed. And Valve took way too long to publicly address this. Valve and the TO should accept partial responsibility for this poorly handled mess.
We share the same sentiments. It's just so fishy that they (Valve) released a blog post regarding Pain X's disqualification from the CQ regional qualifiers but can't even make a full announcement regarding Kuku's situation. The racism incident happened way before that blog post and TNC already qualified for the main event.
I don't know, maybe they just baited TNC to make wrong decisions and desperately look for any clear answers. If there was never a ban, why not Valve didn't made an official statement.
I may be wrong, but I'm just confused.
I always argue with my friends to wait for the official announcement, but here it goes, too late.
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Poland3748 Posts
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible.
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On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible.
Exactly.
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On December 05 2018 17:03 Aisengamer666 wrote:Show nested quote +
In the end I don't like the way Valve handled this situation at all. True it was the only option they had left to not lose the Chinese market and appease the mob, mostly because they refused to step in while there was still time to do so. I don't believe Valve are happy with the decision, because it could set a dangerous precedent, but it was the only logical way out without risking the tournament.
When they told TNC: you can play with a standin without losing DPC in my opinion it was quite clearly implied that this is what Valve wanted them to do to avoid more drama.
I think most people misunderstood Valve's statement. To me, Valve was never going to allow Kuku to attend the CQ major. TNC contacted them and asked if they'd get penalised for replacing Kuku, naturally one would think this is what TNC is attempting to do. But no, they went ahead and threw out a heap of false rumors to try and stir up the public to give them a hand. Valve sees this and have no option but to come out and close the case by officially announcing Kuku's ban. Kuku's ban is not entirely because of what TNC did, but collectively of what he did + the team's handling of the entire situation. Valve has given TNC enough time to fix this issue themselves but they have on multiple occasions refuse to do so. Their public relation team is just horrendous imo. So do not put the blame to Valve, there should be fair bit of communication going around involving TNC, the organisers and Valve. But Valve's statement to me is the one with most authority and integrity. I would not believe what TNC nor the organiser said is 100% true. At least Valve is closer to that 100%. A slap in the face for a lot of public figures (streamers/caster) tho.
That's the part that's fucked up and why people are mad, and the entire crux of the argument myself and a few others were making. Valve, more than likely, NEVER was going to let Kuku play in the major, but instead of explicitly saying that to TNC they just told them they could play with a sub for no reduction. Playing with a sub without a point reduction is not the same as "please don't play with that player" and I in no way blame TNC for wanting to field their full roster to an event. To do anything but ruins the competitive integrity of the tournament.
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On December 06 2018 06:40 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 17:03 Aisengamer666 wrote:
In the end I don't like the way Valve handled this situation at all. True it was the only option they had left to not lose the Chinese market and appease the mob, mostly because they refused to step in while there was still time to do so. I don't believe Valve are happy with the decision, because it could set a dangerous precedent, but it was the only logical way out without risking the tournament.
When they told TNC: you can play with a standin without losing DPC in my opinion it was quite clearly implied that this is what Valve wanted them to do to avoid more drama.
I think most people misunderstood Valve's statement. To me, Valve was never going to allow Kuku to attend the CQ major. TNC contacted them and asked if they'd get penalised for replacing Kuku, naturally one would think this is what TNC is attempting to do. But no, they went ahead and threw out a heap of false rumors to try and stir up the public to give them a hand. Valve sees this and have no option but to come out and close the case by officially announcing Kuku's ban. Kuku's ban is not entirely because of what TNC did, but collectively of what he did + the team's handling of the entire situation. Valve has given TNC enough time to fix this issue themselves but they have on multiple occasions refuse to do so. Their public relation team is just horrendous imo. So do not put the blame to Valve, there should be fair bit of communication going around involving TNC, the organisers and Valve. But Valve's statement to me is the one with most authority and integrity. I would not believe what TNC nor the organiser said is 100% true. At least Valve is closer to that 100%. A slap in the face for a lot of public figures (streamers/caster) tho. That's the part that's fucked up and why people are mad, and the entire crux of the argument myself and a few others were making. Valve, more than likely, NEVER was going to let Kuku play in the major, but instead of explicitly saying that to TNC they just told them they could play with a sub for no reduction. Playing with a sub without a point reduction is not the same as "please don't play with that player" and I in no way blame TNC for wanting to field their full roster to an event. To do anything but ruins the competitive integrity of the tournament.
Yeah, and in fact them saying that TNC wouldn't receive a point reduction is a pretty big indicator that Valve knew he was banned at the time (otherwise, why give the zero point reduction) and for some reason no one was explicit with TNC. Everyone assumed that they could read the innuendo, but when Valve released a statement saying that they expected teams to police this behavior themselves then Valve shot themselves in the foot because they provided a plausible scenario for TNC to play with KuKu when they never meant to give them that option in the first place but hoped they wouldn't have to say it.
This whole thing stinks of outside intervention, and as a result leaves a sour taste in my mouth even though I think this punishment was ultimately the one that KuKu deserved from the start.
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Poland3748 Posts
I don't think punishment for Kuku is fair. I digged up new yorker article on punishments for players.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2014/03/worst-slurs-in-sports-ranked-by-punishment.html
Fairly similar situation from 2013:
Using the N-word, on free time = “a good amount of money” (undisclosed), no suspension [NFL, 2013]
The free time situation was caught on camera.
Let's note that it's NFL, not dota2 - somehow more mature environment - and there's no suspension, only money fine.
So calling banning Kuku from one of the most important event in the year outside TI "fair" is complete BS.
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Note- Cooper still had to attend sensitivity training and his career was over less than two years after. The NFL is also a bit laxer than the NBA, note that the NBA fined someone 75,000$ for a similar situation dealing with a homophobic slur further down the list. And an MLB player was suspended 28 games in 1999 for racial slurs. So it's not without precedent even in American Sports (that article is specifically about incidents around 2013).
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Whats does KuKu said?? is he banned like forever to china?
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On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible.
You still don't get why he gets banned. Stop using that C word. It is very racist to the Chinese community.
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Its obvious hes banned cause Valve is appeasing China. Lesser of two evils to upset the rest of the world than China.
I dont mind. As long as another West team wins TI and gets more of that Chinese money.
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On December 07 2018 00:09 Emnjay808 wrote:
Its obvious hes banned cause Valve is appeasing China. Lesser of two evils to upset the rest of the world than China.
I dont mind. As long as another West team wins TI and gets more of that Chinese money.
I think you make it a bit too general. I am less upset by Valve banning him than not banning him. I am not Chinese.
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Poland3748 Posts
On December 06 2018 22:31 Aisengamer666 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible. You still don't get why he gets banned. Stop using that C word. It is very racist to the Chinese community.
I'm not calling anyone in particular with the term and I'm not trying to pretend the phrase doesn't exist. Just avoiding this particular string of letters is not helping the discussion.
It's more or less the same as "nigger" for afro-americans.
You can't force people to not use these words - it would be censorship. Much better to encourage people to behave better.
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On December 07 2018 00:45 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 22:31 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible. You still don't get why he gets banned. Stop using that C word. It is very racist to the Chinese community. I'm not calling anyone in particular with the term and I'm not trying to pretend the phrase doesn't exist. Just avoiding this particular string of letters is not helping the discussion. It's more or less the same as "nigger" for afro-americans. You can't force people to not use these words - it would be censorship. Much better to encourage people to behave better.
Of course people are free to use them. Just as Valve/liquid dota/any other non-goverment entity is free to ban them for it.
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It is actually ridiculous to me that people actually think the Chinese government is actively involve in this story. They are busy taking care of billions of people, no way they can pay any special attention on a 22-year-old young man just come to play some games.
Yes, if you said something stupid in the internet, you might get a denied entrance, but that is a typical routine check, not a rare case for any nation.
Before TNC stiring it up with the fake statements, this entire shitshow actually die down faster in Chinese forums than Reddit, and people calling out Chinese scene for over-reacting.
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not the overall chinese government, but something more local to the area it's taking place in.
it's entirely possible that everyone reacted poorly in general.
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dont forget there is zero evidence of cited source for any "chinese government intervention"... except some retarded english twitts.
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@above me
-_-
oh. come on.
the whole thing smells like a connected individual doing things
its normal but its pretty embarassing
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Poland3748 Posts
On December 07 2018 00:52 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2018 00:45 nimdil wrote:On December 06 2018 22:31 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible. You still don't get why he gets banned. Stop using that C word. It is very racist to the Chinese community. I'm not calling anyone in particular with the term and I'm not trying to pretend the phrase doesn't exist. Just avoiding this particular string of letters is not helping the discussion. It's more or less the same as "nigger" for afro-americans. You can't force people to not use these words - it would be censorship. Much better to encourage people to behave better. Of course people are free to use them. Just as Valve/liquid dota/any other non-goverment entity is free to ban them for it.
Technically yes, but it's hard to justify this situation as fair. Plus she this Chinese government involvement rumors
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On December 06 2018 22:31 Aisengamer666 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible. You still don't get why he gets banned. Stop using that C word. It is very racist to the Chinese community.
Its actually not that racist to any Chinese outside of western countries like aus/us/Europe. A person from china is unlikely to not even know what the term ching Chong mean. Most of the anger stems from them finding out its racidt origins, and reacting because of the disrespect shown.
Source: myself as a Chinese in Singapore.
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pssst dont destroy his world where words are racist and not the intention behind them.
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On December 07 2018 00:33 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2018 00:09 Emnjay808 wrote:
Its obvious hes banned cause Valve is appeasing China. Lesser of two evils to upset the rest of the world than China.
I dont mind. As long as another West team wins TI and gets more of that Chinese money. I think you make it a bit too general. I am less upset by Valve banning him than not banning him. I am not Chinese.
I'm OK with them banning Kuku too, but contingent on them treating every player the same way in future. Whether they type in game or on social media, whether it's in English or Mandarin, all players who say anything racist from now on must receive the same punishment.
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On December 05 2018 13:36 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 06:55 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 05 2018 06:01 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 05 2018 04:54 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 05 2018 03:31 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it. different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous. if you would be so kind to answer my questions. thanks! TBH I don't think there is a point, since you will insinst on your POV and I will insist on mine, but since you're asking: To me it's quite obvious that what he meant was: "WTF, I can't understand a word you're saying." just like thousands of players type: "wtf russky" in pubs every single day. The fact that it was used twice within a week has no relevance whatsoever. Why do you insist that he meant: "I hate chinese people"? What is your evidence that kuku is racist? Would you agree that there is a certain tension between black and white Americans? Doesn't mean that every american is a racist. And lastly: Not only does "mimicking the chinese language" not even remotely equal racism, the fact that you quote wiktionary as a source makes the value of your post mostly a comic one. it doesnt matter if kuku is racist or not. he used an ethnic slur, has basically shown no remorse and could actually have influence on people who really are racists and think less of chinese people in general. the same goes for the problems in america. would you (im gonna assume you are white) call a black guy in the united states that you dont know the n-word? probably not. sure lets disregard wiktionary as a source. what about the article that was linked? what about the history you were so quick to disregard? what about all the other incidents where people took real offense after somebody said "ching-chong"? i probably wont be able to change your mind but dont you think its a bit ridiculous to disregard all this additional information and kukus demeanor in favor of "he just doesnt understand chinese"? I think we were having a bit of a misunderstanding. I am not denying the nature and/or history associated with the phrase nor am I defending what he did. I also believe that Kuku was definitely in the wrong, first for not apologizing and obviously for that brainless cover-up attempt. But what I do believe is that his intent was not to offend the Chinese people and also that he did not realize how strongly the Chinese feel about the phrase. In the end I don't like the way Valve handled this situation at all. True it was the only option they had left to not lose the Chinese market and appease the mob, mostly because they refused to step in while there was still time to do so. I don't believe Valve are happy with the decision, because it could set a dangerous precedent, but it was the only logical way out without risking the tournament. When they told TNC: you can play with a standin without losing DPC in my opinion it was quite clearly implied that this is what Valve wanted them to do to avoid more drama.
Then he should apologize in the first place, not some cover-up shit show.
despite the fact you cannot say what his intention is, the damage is there. It's more scary if everyone is using racist phrase and play"oh I don't mean it" card.
And as a public figure, he should be responsible for what he did. Tnc had a PR nightmare, because a game player teenager doesn't use his brain before doing things.
Valve is clear way smarter than a teenager. the damage control is there, and I don't think it could be other way.
In the end of the day, it is a TnC made a more stupid move like lying then play as a victim.
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dude... this was in 2018. can we like move on?
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Dont worry, it will die off on its own.
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EPT
