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On December 06 2018 06:40 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 17:03 Aisengamer666 wrote:
In the end I don't like the way Valve handled this situation at all. True it was the only option they had left to not lose the Chinese market and appease the mob, mostly because they refused to step in while there was still time to do so. I don't believe Valve are happy with the decision, because it could set a dangerous precedent, but it was the only logical way out without risking the tournament.
When they told TNC: you can play with a standin without losing DPC in my opinion it was quite clearly implied that this is what Valve wanted them to do to avoid more drama.
I think most people misunderstood Valve's statement. To me, Valve was never going to allow Kuku to attend the CQ major. TNC contacted them and asked if they'd get penalised for replacing Kuku, naturally one would think this is what TNC is attempting to do. But no, they went ahead and threw out a heap of false rumors to try and stir up the public to give them a hand. Valve sees this and have no option but to come out and close the case by officially announcing Kuku's ban. Kuku's ban is not entirely because of what TNC did, but collectively of what he did + the team's handling of the entire situation. Valve has given TNC enough time to fix this issue themselves but they have on multiple occasions refuse to do so. Their public relation team is just horrendous imo. So do not put the blame to Valve, there should be fair bit of communication going around involving TNC, the organisers and Valve. But Valve's statement to me is the one with most authority and integrity. I would not believe what TNC nor the organiser said is 100% true. At least Valve is closer to that 100%. A slap in the face for a lot of public figures (streamers/caster) tho. That's the part that's fucked up and why people are mad, and the entire crux of the argument myself and a few others were making. Valve, more than likely, NEVER was going to let Kuku play in the major, but instead of explicitly saying that to TNC they just told them they could play with a sub for no reduction. Playing with a sub without a point reduction is not the same as "please don't play with that player" and I in no way blame TNC for wanting to field their full roster to an event. To do anything but ruins the competitive integrity of the tournament.
Yeah, and in fact them saying that TNC wouldn't receive a point reduction is a pretty big indicator that Valve knew he was banned at the time (otherwise, why give the zero point reduction) and for some reason no one was explicit with TNC. Everyone assumed that they could read the innuendo, but when Valve released a statement saying that they expected teams to police this behavior themselves then Valve shot themselves in the foot because they provided a plausible scenario for TNC to play with KuKu when they never meant to give them that option in the first place but hoped they wouldn't have to say it.
This whole thing stinks of outside intervention, and as a result leaves a sour taste in my mouth even though I think this punishment was ultimately the one that KuKu deserved from the start.
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Poland3748 Posts
I don't think punishment for Kuku is fair. I digged up new yorker article on punishments for players.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2014/03/worst-slurs-in-sports-ranked-by-punishment.html
Fairly similar situation from 2013:
Using the N-word, on free time = “a good amount of money” (undisclosed), no suspension [NFL, 2013]
The free time situation was caught on camera.
Let's note that it's NFL, not dota2 - somehow more mature environment - and there's no suspension, only money fine.
So calling banning Kuku from one of the most important event in the year outside TI "fair" is complete BS.
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Note- Cooper still had to attend sensitivity training and his career was over less than two years after. The NFL is also a bit laxer than the NBA, note that the NBA fined someone 75,000$ for a similar situation dealing with a homophobic slur further down the list. And an MLB player was suspended 28 games in 1999 for racial slurs. So it's not without precedent even in American Sports (that article is specifically about incidents around 2013).
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Whats does KuKu said?? is he banned like forever to china?
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On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible.
You still don't get why he gets banned. Stop using that C word. It is very racist to the Chinese community.
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Its obvious hes banned cause Valve is appeasing China. Lesser of two evils to upset the rest of the world than China.
I dont mind. As long as another West team wins TI and gets more of that Chinese money.
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On December 07 2018 00:09 Emnjay808 wrote:
Its obvious hes banned cause Valve is appeasing China. Lesser of two evils to upset the rest of the world than China.
I dont mind. As long as another West team wins TI and gets more of that Chinese money.
I think you make it a bit too general. I am less upset by Valve banning him than not banning him. I am not Chinese.
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Poland3748 Posts
On December 06 2018 22:31 Aisengamer666 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible. You still don't get why he gets banned. Stop using that C word. It is very racist to the Chinese community.
I'm not calling anyone in particular with the term and I'm not trying to pretend the phrase doesn't exist. Just avoiding this particular string of letters is not helping the discussion.
It's more or less the same as "nigger" for afro-americans.
You can't force people to not use these words - it would be censorship. Much better to encourage people to behave better.
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On December 07 2018 00:45 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 22:31 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible. You still don't get why he gets banned. Stop using that C word. It is very racist to the Chinese community. I'm not calling anyone in particular with the term and I'm not trying to pretend the phrase doesn't exist. Just avoiding this particular string of letters is not helping the discussion. It's more or less the same as "nigger" for afro-americans. You can't force people to not use these words - it would be censorship. Much better to encourage people to behave better.
Of course people are free to use them. Just as Valve/liquid dota/any other non-goverment entity is free to ban them for it.
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It is actually ridiculous to me that people actually think the Chinese government is actively involve in this story. They are busy taking care of billions of people, no way they can pay any special attention on a 22-year-old young man just come to play some games.
Yes, if you said something stupid in the internet, you might get a denied entrance, but that is a typical routine check, not a rare case for any nation.
Before TNC stiring it up with the fake statements, this entire shitshow actually die down faster in Chinese forums than Reddit, and people calling out Chinese scene for over-reacting.
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not the overall chinese government, but something more local to the area it's taking place in.
it's entirely possible that everyone reacted poorly in general.
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dont forget there is zero evidence of cited source for any "chinese government intervention"... except some retarded english twitts.
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@above me
-_-
oh. come on.
the whole thing smells like a connected individual doing things
its normal but its pretty embarassing
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Poland3748 Posts
On December 07 2018 00:52 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2018 00:45 nimdil wrote:On December 06 2018 22:31 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible. You still don't get why he gets banned. Stop using that C word. It is very racist to the Chinese community. I'm not calling anyone in particular with the term and I'm not trying to pretend the phrase doesn't exist. Just avoiding this particular string of letters is not helping the discussion. It's more or less the same as "nigger" for afro-americans. You can't force people to not use these words - it would be censorship. Much better to encourage people to behave better. Of course people are free to use them. Just as Valve/liquid dota/any other non-goverment entity is free to ban them for it.
Technically yes, but it's hard to justify this situation as fair. Plus she this Chinese government involvement rumors
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On December 06 2018 22:31 Aisengamer666 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 23:06 nimdil wrote:
While the TNS/Kuku behaviour with sloppy cover up begs for some slapping, the underlying situation in which a player in non tournament environment uses "ching chong" and suddenly, apparently, there's a lot of pressure from China to not let the player into the tournament is absolutely ridiculous. And the end result is that Chinese officials can feel good about their approach because it "worked" even though it's horrible. You still don't get why he gets banned. Stop using that C word. It is very racist to the Chinese community.
Its actually not that racist to any Chinese outside of western countries like aus/us/Europe. A person from china is unlikely to not even know what the term ching Chong mean. Most of the anger stems from them finding out its racidt origins, and reacting because of the disrespect shown.
Source: myself as a Chinese in Singapore.
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pssst dont destroy his world where words are racist and not the intention behind them.
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On December 07 2018 00:33 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2018 00:09 Emnjay808 wrote:
Its obvious hes banned cause Valve is appeasing China. Lesser of two evils to upset the rest of the world than China.
I dont mind. As long as another West team wins TI and gets more of that Chinese money. I think you make it a bit too general. I am less upset by Valve banning him than not banning him. I am not Chinese.
I'm OK with them banning Kuku too, but contingent on them treating every player the same way in future. Whether they type in game or on social media, whether it's in English or Mandarin, all players who say anything racist from now on must receive the same punishment.
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On December 05 2018 13:36 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2018 06:55 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 05 2018 06:01 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 05 2018 04:54 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On December 05 2018 03:31 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On December 05 2018 03:01 Aisengamer666 wrote:On December 05 2018 02:36 Sigh Koala wrote:
Banning someone for a joke! Damn! For those that keeps on insisting that it is a joke... If i call you something that you hate the uttermost and do not apologize right away. After you got so mad then i come out and say oops i didnt know what it means so it was a joke. does that change what had happen? NO. If you don't know what it means, dont ****** say it?! If nothing gets done here, everytime this happens in the future, the same excuse will be used over and over again. so stop crying about it. different words have different meanings to different people. Stop acting so goddamn righteous. if you would be so kind to answer my questions. thanks! TBH I don't think there is a point, since you will insinst on your POV and I will insist on mine, but since you're asking: To me it's quite obvious that what he meant was: "WTF, I can't understand a word you're saying." just like thousands of players type: "wtf russky" in pubs every single day. The fact that it was used twice within a week has no relevance whatsoever. Why do you insist that he meant: "I hate chinese people"? What is your evidence that kuku is racist? Would you agree that there is a certain tension between black and white Americans? Doesn't mean that every american is a racist. And lastly: Not only does "mimicking the chinese language" not even remotely equal racism, the fact that you quote wiktionary as a source makes the value of your post mostly a comic one. it doesnt matter if kuku is racist or not. he used an ethnic slur, has basically shown no remorse and could actually have influence on people who really are racists and think less of chinese people in general. the same goes for the problems in america. would you (im gonna assume you are white) call a black guy in the united states that you dont know the n-word? probably not. sure lets disregard wiktionary as a source. what about the article that was linked? what about the history you were so quick to disregard? what about all the other incidents where people took real offense after somebody said "ching-chong"? i probably wont be able to change your mind but dont you think its a bit ridiculous to disregard all this additional information and kukus demeanor in favor of "he just doesnt understand chinese"? I think we were having a bit of a misunderstanding. I am not denying the nature and/or history associated with the phrase nor am I defending what he did. I also believe that Kuku was definitely in the wrong, first for not apologizing and obviously for that brainless cover-up attempt. But what I do believe is that his intent was not to offend the Chinese people and also that he did not realize how strongly the Chinese feel about the phrase. In the end I don't like the way Valve handled this situation at all. True it was the only option they had left to not lose the Chinese market and appease the mob, mostly because they refused to step in while there was still time to do so. I don't believe Valve are happy with the decision, because it could set a dangerous precedent, but it was the only logical way out without risking the tournament. When they told TNC: you can play with a standin without losing DPC in my opinion it was quite clearly implied that this is what Valve wanted them to do to avoid more drama.
Then he should apologize in the first place, not some cover-up shit show.
despite the fact you cannot say what his intention is, the damage is there. It's more scary if everyone is using racist phrase and play"oh I don't mean it" card.
And as a public figure, he should be responsible for what he did. Tnc had a PR nightmare, because a game player teenager doesn't use his brain before doing things.
Valve is clear way smarter than a teenager. the damage control is there, and I don't think it could be other way.
In the end of the day, it is a TnC made a more stupid move like lying then play as a victim.
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dude... this was in 2018. can we like move on?
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EPT
