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On April 18 2012 05:09 hunts wrote:
So I've been having a lot of fun on doom, but haven't been winning many games on him. I'm trying to find a good non radiance hard carry build on him. Am I just wasting my time? it's really fun for me to play doom like that, rush midas and farm up some good gear and go hard carry because of his sick farm. But it feels like he's just really not made for that style.
He has no cc and no real escape mechanism, which makes it much harder to stay alive if caught out of position or in a bad battle, he has mana issues which IMO makes orchid almost necessary, low attack speed and armor which makes AC necessary, slow movement speed and no cc/stun which makes phase boots necessary. the build I've been liking to go is midas, phase, shadow blade, orchid, ac, domi, satanic. But it feels like by going for that build I'm useless in the mid game, and by the time I get my farm the other team is already fed off of the rest of my team. Any suggestions on this style of hard carry doom, or if I should just give up on trying to make it work?
Radiance is the best damage item you can get on doom. In the midgame, you won't be able to really autoattack anyone, so in team fights, just being near people with scorched earth and radiance aura will melt the other team until they get pipe. Orchid is completely unnecessary, carry doom casts 2 spells (devour/scorched earth) along with his ult. Level death is really a waste of mana until you get to the late midgame, because you need to be using your mana to devour on cd. RoB is more than enough mana to cast devour on CD and scorched earth/doom occasionally until you hit ~14 when your natural mana regen gives you enough to cast whatever you want. In pubs, rush midas, then build RoB, vanguard, radiance (should have this by 20-22 minutes if you're doing a good job farming), and then shivas or AC depending on which will provide more damage (Doom really needs the armor at this point). After that, a straight damage item is great as you can devour a crit wolf and start doing legit physical damage.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 18 2012 05:14 Nevuk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Phase boots on sylla's bear tend to be better early game before rabid is maxed. They're also good if you want to push towers early due to the way his crit works, and they let his bear phase through enemies/creeps with a bit of micro (which is more key to why the item is picked).
I've never had issues playing syllabear in pubs, you just have to play him fairly differently. (Dual phase boots + orb of venom on bear, skip radiance if jungling). There's no way to get radiance before an opposing free farmer if you are in the jungle and once the bear is level 4 pushing outer towers becomes extremely easy with just phase boots - if a teamfight is about to break out and you don't have enough people/ your team is very behind you let the bear right click, do 3-400 damage to the tower, then return him to you once ports start coming in and run away (if he's about to die resummon him to you or just take the hit) while standing at max leash distance.
Syllabear's ult gives him a ridiculous amount of extra hp and armor, and warcry adds +2/4/6 armor and +20/40/60 damage to you and your bear (remember this for teamfights and pushing towers). If fighting against a lineup who has really any magic damage coming your way at all a cloak is a must, and in between pushing towers it's farm farm farm. Phase boots on syllabear himself as well personally - he has max movespeed without ult form but without ult form he dies in like 2 nukes and as melee you want him to be able to move over creeps and other things people will try and juke you with. Also where to put the assault cuirass is a matter of preference, but where to put the parts while building it is less so. Putting the hyperstone on the bear makes roots more likely and lets him bash at towers really fast. The armors go on yourself generally. A syllabear with a dead bear isn't useless, but a dead sylla means a dead bear. If you're against ALL magic then maybe a hood first but that's a different story. I can't really think of a reason to put the armor items on the bear, he has has 3k hp and unless they're actually throwing CC spells constantly at him he should be able to just run back to you or get ported back due to how fast the thing is with rabid. And if your opponents are throwing stuns at a bear without a radiance I would really hope even your generic pub team can take advantage of it.
Side note :
Getting a midas on the bear delays your utility by a long time if you're jungling and if you're laning you shouldn't be able to get away with throwing away your first 2000 gold on an item that doesn't give you anything - and if you are able to get away with it go for a relic instead. (Realistically normal boots of speed on both of you should come ahead of everything after starting items. Syllabear has really high movement speed in non-ult form (315 vs 285 i think) and his bear has even higher after some points in synergy).
The bear needs armor more than you do. 4th rank bear has 6 armor, and has zero armor growth, unlike your Druid, which is getting armor from stat gains. That's also not considering the way armor types work--because your Druid has Hero-type armor, and your Bear has Heavy armor, your Bear is already taking a vastly increased percentage of autoattack damage than your Druid is (most notably from creeps and towers).
Again, if you're positioned such that someone is really doing a lot of autoattack damage to you, you may as well just buy Ghost Scepter rather than holding the AC components and expecting it to do something.
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level death is really good don't skip it
click on someone at the right level and it does like 500 magic damage with a ministun every 8 seconds
if you're going radiance i highly recommend tranquil + vit booster > radi, it lets you get radi much earlier and you can break tranquils into other boots + hood later on if you need to
if you're skipping radi then just go super tanky with like boots > vit booster + pipe > platemail > ac/heart/shiva
if you're mid getting a bottle should solve mana problems, but otherwise arcanes are pretty good, since doom doesn't really autoattack anyway
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On April 18 2012 05:32 scorch- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 05:09 hunts wrote:
So I've been having a lot of fun on doom, but haven't been winning many games on him. I'm trying to find a good non radiance hard carry build on him. Am I just wasting my time? it's really fun for me to play doom like that, rush midas and farm up some good gear and go hard carry because of his sick farm. But it feels like he's just really not made for that style.
He has no cc and no real escape mechanism, which makes it much harder to stay alive if caught out of position or in a bad battle, he has mana issues which IMO makes orchid almost necessary, low attack speed and armor which makes AC necessary, slow movement speed and no cc/stun which makes phase boots necessary. the build I've been liking to go is midas, phase, shadow blade, orchid, ac, domi, satanic. But it feels like by going for that build I'm useless in the mid game, and by the time I get my farm the other team is already fed off of the rest of my team. Any suggestions on this style of hard carry doom, or if I should just give up on trying to make it work? Radiance is the best damage item you can get on doom. In the midgame, you won't be able to really autoattack anyone, so in team fights, just being near people with scorched earth and radiance aura will melt the other team until they get pipe. Orchid is completely unnecessary, carry doom casts 2 spells (devour/scorched earth) along with his ult. Level death is really a waste of mana until you get to the late midgame, because you need to be using your mana to devour on cd. RoB is more than enough mana to cast devour on CD and scorched earth/doom occasionally until you hit ~14 when your natural mana regen gives you enough to cast whatever you want. In pubs, rush midas, then build RoB, vanguard, radiance (should have this by 20-22 minutes if you're doing a good job farming), and then shivas or AC depending on which will provide more damage (Doom really needs the armor at this point). After that, a straight damage item is great as you can devour a crit wolf and start doing legit physical damage.
I really really don't like radiance on doom for some reason, is it really that good that it's worth getting over say shadow blade/domi/orchid or earlier aC?
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United States47024 Posts
On April 18 2012 06:07 Dead9 wrote:
level death is really good don't skip it
click on someone at the right level and it does like 500 magic damage with a ministun every 8 seconds
There are 2 approaches to Level Death. Either 1 rank at level 5 (so that you get the bonus damage when you and your lane opponent are both 6), or 2 ranks before 6 (so that you get the bonus damage when you are 6, and your opponent is still 5, and can get an easy kill). After that it starts to get pretty situational. The former is "safer", as it gives you more skill points to put into Scorched Earth/Consume, while the 2nd is good if you're against a worse laner and expect to hit 6 first. Even if you don't get a kill with it, 2nd rank Level Death allows you to gank the sidelanes with Doom+Level Death when they're level 5.
Any more than 2 ranks before 6 starts to get unrealistic. You need your other skills to stay in lane because Doom is a melee hero with 0 base armor.
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I had a lot more trouble with doom than other heroes, and so I tried for a while to find a way to play him that was effective. It ended up being different then what I wanted but it was the best way I could find. For a solo lane:
Basically max devour or fire depending on the team comp. If you're against a harasser or prone to ganks just max fire. Usually max fire the majority of the time. From there I max devour and pick up lvl death only when its worth it [ gauge other team's level timings ]. Its crucial for you to grab a wolf neut asap. I get phase boots, bottle if mid, optional ring of bas/vanguard, into straight cuirass. If I don't need aghs or bkb I can go radiance. It's a pretty free item build but it helped me out a lot. I usually solo mid as doom and your creep management is difficult because you're either devouring or not as strong as solo mid as other heroes. The strength is that it allows you to beat almost anyone to runes and still be useful even if you lose your combo.
Phase drums alone with a wolf makes you autoattack really hard. Cuirass as your first big item helped a lot more than I thought it would on doom. I would say if you have the same luck as me in getting runes and wolves its worth diving enemy jungle just to find a wolf [ if you know neutral spawn rules ]. It was more of a playstyle change for me than anything else. Before I was used to old doom where you would straight rush relic, but it made you so useless because you were slow as fuck with low levels of fire, and its a long cd. On top of that you can't get to runes without boots. You still have no armor, and bottle only doom also can't help other lanes. If you got radiance late it didn't help because you still struggled to get boots etc....Think all of the new cheap and effective items called for a new way to play doom.
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On April 18 2012 06:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 06:07 Dead9 wrote:
level death is really good don't skip it
click on someone at the right level and it does like 500 magic damage with a ministun every 8 seconds
There are 2 approaches to Level Death. Either 1 rank at level 5 (so that you get the bonus damage when you and your lane opponent are both 6), or 2 ranks before 6 (so that you get the bonus damage when you are 6, and your opponent is still 5, and can get an easy kill). After that it starts to get pretty situational. The latter is "safer", as it gives you more skill points to put into Scorched Earth/Consume, while the 2nd is good if you're against a worse laner and expect to hit 6 first. Even if you don't get a kill with it, 2nd rank Level Death allows you to gank the sidelanes with Doom+Level Death when they're level 5. Any more than 2 ranks before 6 starts to get unrealistic. You need your other skills to stay in lane because Doom is a melee hero with 0 base armor.
yea but i mean generally don't skip it for stats later on
it's a really big nuke
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United States47024 Posts
One thing that's important with Doom is knowing which creeps you can/should get with each rank of Consume. Everyone knows Alpha Wolf/Centaur are good, but people often don't bother with the ones on low levels when some of them are really good when you can't get the bigger creeps yet.
Two favorites:
Kobold Taskmaster - Speed Aura is AMAZING. +12% movespeed as an aura is fantastic when you're ganking, and isn't bad for moving around in lane/getting runes early game either. Honestly, if you have some time level 1-2 (or if not then, when you get a chance moving to/from a rune), and someone can check for you whether a Kobold spawned at the easy camp, it's really nice to be able to consume one of these at early levels.
Satyr Soulstealer - Mana Burn. Costs 50 mana, burns 100 mana, and does damage equal to the amount burned. The cooldown is kind of long, but this is pretty nice to have in certain mid matchups, as attritioning mana vs. some mid heroes can bother them quite a bit.
Soulstealers are pretty annoying to get as Sentinel (since the Medium camps are so far), but are OK for Scourge. A lot of the time, I'll grab Speed Aura at level 1 or 2, and use it all the way up till I get my 3rd point of Consume at some point 7-9.
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if ur on sentinel u can get a troll healer at lv1
it's really really good
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I don't get what the big deal about the bars thing is. It seems like just a thing Valve put in to let scrubs stroke their e-peen.
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On April 18 2012 06:49 TheYango wrote:
One thing that's important with Doom is knowing which creeps you can/should get with each rank of Consume. Everyone knows Alpha Wolf/Centaur are good, but people often don't bother with the ones on low levels when some of them are really good when you can't get the bigger creeps yet.
Two favorites:
Kobold Taskmaster - Speed Aura is AMAZING. +12% movespeed as an aura is fantastic when you're ganking, and isn't bad for moving around in lane/getting runes early game either. Honestly, if you have some time level 1-2 (or if not then, when you get a chance moving to/from a rune), and someone can check for you whether a Kobold spawned at the easy camp, it's really nice to be able to consume one of these at early levels.
Satyr Soulstealer - Mana Burn. Costs 50 mana, burns 100 mana, and does damage equal to the amount burned. The cooldown is kind of long, but this is pretty nice to have in certain mid matchups, as attritioning mana vs. some mid heroes can bother them quite a bit.
Soulstealers are pretty annoying to get as Sentinel (since the Medium camps are so far), but are OK for Scourge. A lot of the time, I'll grab Speed Aura at level 1 or 2, and use it all the way up till I get my 3rd point of Consume at some point 7-9.
I see the speed consume being used quite often. Having that and phaseboots makes doom so much fun. But I will admit, I have not played Doom enough to be reasonably good with him. Sometimes, getting farm up can be quit difficult (for me at least).
On April 18 2012 07:34 kethers wrote:
I don't get what the big deal about the bars thing is. It seems like just a thing Valve put in to let scrubs stroke their e-peen.
That seems a bit overly harsh and with a hint of elitism.
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Well it's a relative thing, much like SC2 divisions.
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I haven't played doom since before tranquil boots so I can't speak of them, however:
As TheYango pointed out you almost always want a kobold taskmaster aura asap for ganking.
You max scorched over devour when the matchup requires it as Ack1027 pointed out.
You get either RoB, soulring or bottle to cover your mana depending on the lane you're in and the situation at hand:
Bottle if mid and your matchup allows you to get runes often enough.
RoB will let you push a tower in situations where the pub enemy might not expect you to because of maxed scorched or so (You meet the creepwave behind their tower while maintaining RoB aura on your own creepwave.)
Fast phase boots usually guarantees you a kill if you're 1vs1 or ganking and as pointed out they also let you have some real right click damage once you add alpha wolf (and possibly Janggo)
You'll often want a stick to help a little with mana, most certainly if you've just gone RoB. Unless you already got the branches I wouldn't bother upgrading it. (And even then, I often don't.)
If your lane requires it you could get a RoH prior to these in which case I'd finish a vanguard after the Phase boots and use it to tower dive anything. Otherwise get a Janggo.
This gives you a solid base to work on for that 3800g you need to collect for the relic. You participate in fights whenever you have Doom ready, the rest of the time you farm. Preferably in lanes. The follow-up will be either Lothars, Shivas, AC, BKB, Hex, Linkens or Heart/satanic depending on what the situation demands.
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On April 18 2012 07:25 Dead9 wrote:
if ur on sentinel u can get a troll healer at lv1
it's really really good
troll healer is definitely nice with basilius you have more than enough mana regen 
wildkin is good for roaming around and when your team needs you early on
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Anyone feel like the last two DotA Cinema top plays were rather....lackluster? :/
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The conventional build for me when I play doom is mid lane, farm up a midas with his amazing attack damage and and devour by like 4-5 minutes, and then depending on how well your doing or if your allies need ganks either a boots of travel or a radiance. The BoT isn't really necessary but i really like the speed and mobility it gives, but it doesn't really contribute that much to a carry doom compared to treads or phase. End game items would be boots, radiance, skadi, heart, shivas, cuirass. I tried changing it around once in a while by swapping radiance for abyssal blade and I find it works pretty well and could be interexchangeable.
And I agree to what another guy said above me, some creeps are extremely underrated in terms of what to devour. Try devouring a ghost from the easy camp and combining it with skadi. 50% movement speed slow and 40% attack speed slow is no joke, its one of my favourites and I usually get it over other creeps, even the wolf, just because it gives amazing slow.
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On April 18 2012 06:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 05:14 Nevuk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Phase boots on sylla's bear tend to be better early game before rabid is maxed. They're also good if you want to push towers early due to the way his crit works, and they let his bear phase through enemies/creeps with a bit of micro (which is more key to why the item is picked).
I've never had issues playing syllabear in pubs, you just have to play him fairly differently. (Dual phase boots + orb of venom on bear, skip radiance if jungling). There's no way to get radiance before an opposing free farmer if you are in the jungle and once the bear is level 4 pushing outer towers becomes extremely easy with just phase boots - if a teamfight is about to break out and you don't have enough people/ your team is very behind you let the bear right click, do 3-400 damage to the tower, then return him to you once ports start coming in and run away (if he's about to die resummon him to you or just take the hit) while standing at max leash distance.
Syllabear's ult gives him a ridiculous amount of extra hp and armor, and warcry adds +2/4/6 armor and +20/40/60 damage to you and your bear (remember this for teamfights and pushing towers). If fighting against a lineup who has really any magic damage coming your way at all a cloak is a must, and in between pushing towers it's farm farm farm. Phase boots on syllabear himself as well personally - he has max movespeed without ult form but without ult form he dies in like 2 nukes and as melee you want him to be able to move over creeps and other things people will try and juke you with. Also where to put the assault cuirass is a matter of preference, but where to put the parts while building it is less so. Putting the hyperstone on the bear makes roots more likely and lets him bash at towers really fast. The armors go on yourself generally. A syllabear with a dead bear isn't useless, but a dead sylla means a dead bear. If you're against ALL magic then maybe a hood first but that's a different story. I can't really think of a reason to put the armor items on the bear, he has has 3k hp and unless they're actually throwing CC spells constantly at him he should be able to just run back to you or get ported back due to how fast the thing is with rabid. And if your opponents are throwing stuns at a bear without a radiance I would really hope even your generic pub team can take advantage of it.
Side note :
Getting a midas on the bear delays your utility by a long time if you're jungling and if you're laning you shouldn't be able to get away with throwing away your first 2000 gold on an item that doesn't give you anything - and if you are able to get away with it go for a relic instead. (Realistically normal boots of speed on both of you should come ahead of everything after starting items. Syllabear has really high movement speed in non-ult form (315 vs 285 i think) and his bear has even higher after some points in synergy).
The bear needs armor more than you do. 4th rank bear has 6 armor, and has zero armor growth, unlike your Druid, which is getting armor from stat gains. That's also not considering the way armor types work--because your Druid has Hero-type armor, and your Bear has Heavy armor, your Bear is already taking a vastly increased percentage of autoattack damage than your Druid is (most notably from creeps and towers). Again, if you're positioned such that someone is really doing a lot of autoattack damage to you, you may as well just buy Ghost Scepter rather than holding the AC components and expecting it to do something.
I didn't think armor types were ported? Apologies for not knowing this.
edit :
Getting ghost scepter seems so weird to get on sylla because he can't autoattack with it on and he has no active spells AND it makes him take massively amplified amounts of magical damage. I rarely find myself dying as sylla due to physical attacks even if I never get armor, it's almost always magic damage (thanks mostly to his large amount of armor from ult).
The not scaling armor is true though. When I finish my AC i tend to put it on my bear, even though he gets a fair amount from the aura anyways. Completed AC on ther hero isn't something I would suggest in typical play as it defeats the purpose a little bit (similarly to putting radiance on the hero). I just put the armor components on syllabear first, as this also tends to be before has maxed out survival skills (ie between level 11-16).
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On April 18 2012 09:58 Forte wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 07:25 Dead9 wrote:
if ur on sentinel u can get a troll healer at lv1
it's really really good troll healer is definitely nice with basilius you have more than enough mana regen wildkin is good for roaming around and when your team needs you early on
It has a casttime now, 15 heal that you can spam but you have to stop every time to use it? no not worth it, ever.
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troll healer is more for the mana aura
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On April 18 2012 11:26 TunaBarrett wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 09:58 Forte wrote:On April 18 2012 07:25 Dead9 wrote:
if ur on sentinel u can get a troll healer at lv1
it's really really good troll healer is definitely nice with basilius you have more than enough mana regen wildkin is good for roaming around and when your team needs you early on It has a casttime now, 15 heal that you can spam but you have to stop every time to use it? no not worth it, ever.
It's a 2% mana regen aura. It's a REALLY good aura.
My personal preference for doom is ice ogres early game as they can give him +8 armor for 40 mana on a low CD from level 3 on. Wildkin provide less armor and have a massive mana cost spell that doom isn't going to touch.
Movespeed creeps useful the entire game, wolves start being good from midgame on (combine wolf leader aura and VS aura and it's quite strong). Centaur stomp is also always good if you have a nice sense of timing, mana management, and position.
Getting the small, medium, or big satyr's is a situational thing. The small ones purge is REALLY good, but melee range and 140 mana (really good under certain situations - especially if you have a support to let you get it off). Mana burn is nice but doom can't maintain the mana cost, and the big one just has hp regen aura if you want a bit more sustainability in lane.
Skeletons are good if you are against naix or bkb heroes because his net goes through.
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EPT
