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United States18919 Posts
On April 17 2012 04:38 Ack1027 wrote:
Is English your first language Cilinder? I ask because I think you failed to understand what you quoted in context. 4% per second regardless of hp = ' same rate no matter what your max hp is '
Rate and % may not necessarily mean the same thing.
Often rate will indicate a solid number. So his misinterpretation is excusible.
Stop being so hostile.
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On April 17 2012 04:37 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:30 Ack1027 wrote:On April 17 2012 04:26 Yoshi- wrote:
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in dota1 morphling wouldn't gain any hp while under the effect of ice blast(when he morphs from agi to str)
in dota2 this does happen • HP freeze prevents most kinds of healing including those from skills or items. Morph's stat morph is not healing, its intended to keep the same hp %. If you are at 50% hp and then drop a vanguard, you should still be at 50% hp. So in fact, what you're complaining about as a bug is not even a bug, its just following the rules of AA's ulti. Buff? And, to respond to your condescending tone, the problem here-in-lies that there is an inconsistency issue between dota 1 and dota 2, and the inconsistency lies in the engine limitation of WC3. The question remains, should we stick with the dota 1 trend and cling to the WC3 engine as close as we can, or stick with how it works in Dota 2? That or I don't understand anything.
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What is so hard to understand about this?
Anything that the engine in wc3 did not allow Icefrog to do, he is going to take the opportunity to make it work the way he, the game creator, wants it to work in dota2.
As already explained, it's not a bug, it's not a buff, its just that in dota1 morph doesn't keep the same ratio of HP when he morphs. However, if you look at the rules of AA's ulti and Morph's Morph. It should logically follow to anyone who has read those skills that Morph should ' gain hp ' <----- again wrong term.
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On April 17 2012 04:40 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:37 Comeh wrote:On April 17 2012 04:30 Ack1027 wrote:On April 17 2012 04:26 Yoshi- wrote:
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in dota1 morphling wouldn't gain any hp while under the effect of ice blast(when he morphs from agi to str)
in dota2 this does happen • HP freeze prevents most kinds of healing including those from skills or items. Morph's stat morph is not healing, its intended to keep the same hp %. If you are at 50% hp and then drop a vanguard, you should still be at 50% hp. So in fact, what you're complaining about as a bug is not even a bug, its just following the rules of AA's ulti. Buff? And, to respond to your condescending tone, the problem here-in-lies that there is an inconsistency issue between dota 1 and dota 2, and the inconsistency lies in the engine limitation of WC3. The question remains, should we stick with the dota 1 trend and cling to the WC3 engine as close as we can, or stick with how it works in Dota 2? That or I don't understand anything. ? What is so hard to understand about this? Anything that the engine in wc3 did not allow Icefrog to do, he is going to take the opportunity to make it work the way he, the game creator, wants it to work in dota2. As already explained, it's not a bug, it's not a buff, its just that in dota1 morph doesn't keep the same ratio of HP when he morphs. However, if you look at the rules of AA's ulti and Morph's Morph. It should logically follow to anyone who has read those skills that Morph should ' gain hp ' <----- again wrong term.
Stop insulting everyone's ability to understand and try to understand what everyone is saying yourself. Yes, it was a bug before, it's not a bug now, porting bugs may be a good idea to keep the balance intact because some of them end up as buffs.
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Ofc morph gains hp
Or how else would you call it and he suddenly goes from 10hp to 200hp?
And how do you even know that this is intended?
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It's more consistent to leave it like it is in DotA2. It's not healing, once you readjust your stats you're back at the same # of hp again.
In fact if you make it like dota1 technically it would do some really weird stuff right?
For example, if ice blast lasted long enough, you would be able to kill yourself by taking treads and constantly cycling them. When you go to str the hp gain fails (so your % of max hp goes down), but when you drop to agi your hp drops to keep you at the same hp %. Likewise if a morph kept shifting agi->str->agi eventually he'd just shatter because his % of max hp would be constantly dropping.
Even in the 1 type cycle case if you shift your boots from agi->str and back to agi then how does it make any sense for your hp to decrease?
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United States18919 Posts
On April 17 2012 04:46 Logo wrote:
It's more consistent to leave it like it is in DotA2. It's not healing, once you readjust your stats you're back at the same # of hp again.
In fact if you make it like dota1 technically it would do some really weird stuff right?
For example, if ice blast lasted long enough, you would be able to kill yourself by taking treads and constantly cycling them. When you go to str the hp gain fails (so your % of max hp goes down), but when you drop to agi your hp drops to keep you at the same hp %. Likewise if a morph kept shifting agi->str->agi eventually he'd just shatter because his % of max hp would be constantly dropping.
Even in the 1 type cycle case if you shift your boots from agi->str and back to agi then how does it make any sense for your hp to decrease?
The only real problem I can see about this is that, somewhat, the change in dota2 nerfs AA (albight, only slightly).
The real question is should we nerf his ult for the sake of consistency, or leave it and just make things more complicated. But, yeah, it does make things pretty odd (assuming treads works the same way...)
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On April 17 2012 04:58 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:46 Logo wrote:
It's more consistent to leave it like it is in DotA2. It's not healing, once you readjust your stats you're back at the same # of hp again.
In fact if you make it like dota1 technically it would do some really weird stuff right?
For example, if ice blast lasted long enough, you would be able to kill yourself by taking treads and constantly cycling them. When you go to str the hp gain fails (so your % of max hp goes down), but when you drop to agi your hp drops to keep you at the same hp %. Likewise if a morph kept shifting agi->str->agi eventually he'd just shatter because his % of max hp would be constantly dropping.
Even in the 1 type cycle case if you shift your boots from agi->str and back to agi then how does it make any sense for your hp to decrease? The only real problem I can see about this is that, somewhat, the change in dota2 nerfs AA (albight, only slightly). The real question is should we nerf his ult for the sake of consistency, or leave it and just make things more complicated. But, yeah, it does make things pretty odd (assuming treads works the same way...)
I'd see it more as a morphling buff than an AA nerf tho =)
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On April 17 2012 04:58 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:46 Logo wrote:
It's more consistent to leave it like it is in DotA2. It's not healing, once you readjust your stats you're back at the same # of hp again.
In fact if you make it like dota1 technically it would do some really weird stuff right?
For example, if ice blast lasted long enough, you would be able to kill yourself by taking treads and constantly cycling them. When you go to str the hp gain fails (so your % of max hp goes down), but when you drop to agi your hp drops to keep you at the same hp %. Likewise if a morph kept shifting agi->str->agi eventually he'd just shatter because his % of max hp would be constantly dropping.
Even in the 1 type cycle case if you shift your boots from agi->str and back to agi then how does it make any sense for your hp to decrease? The only real problem I can see about this is that, somewhat, the change in dota2 nerfs AA (albight, only slightly). The real question is should we nerf his ult for the sake of consistency, or leave it and just make things more complicated. But, yeah, it does make things pretty odd (assuming treads works the same way...)
Right, but we can always re-balance AA/Morph and other affected heroes/items/abilities without adding complexity. An odd rule quirk is something that has to be lived with forever and just adds some complexity for no reason at all. So it's not really much of a tough choice.
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On April 17 2012 04:40 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:37 Comeh wrote:On April 17 2012 04:30 Ack1027 wrote:On April 17 2012 04:26 Yoshi- wrote:
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in dota1 morphling wouldn't gain any hp while under the effect of ice blast(when he morphs from agi to str)
in dota2 this does happen • HP freeze prevents most kinds of healing including those from skills or items. Morph's stat morph is not healing, its intended to keep the same hp %. If you are at 50% hp and then drop a vanguard, you should still be at 50% hp. So in fact, what you're complaining about as a bug is not even a bug, its just following the rules of AA's ulti. Buff? And, to respond to your condescending tone, the problem here-in-lies that there is an inconsistency issue between dota 1 and dota 2, and the inconsistency lies in the engine limitation of WC3. The question remains, should we stick with the dota 1 trend and cling to the WC3 engine as close as we can, or stick with how it works in Dota 2? That or I don't understand anything. ? What is so hard to understand about this? Anything that the engine in wc3 did not allow Icefrog to do, he is going to take the opportunity to make it work the way he, the game creator, wants it to work in dota2. As already explained, it's not a bug, it's not a buff, its just that in dota1 morph doesn't keep the same ratio of HP when he morphs. However, if you look at the rules of AA's ulti and Morph's Morph. It should logically follow to anyone who has read those skills that Morph should ' gain hp ' <----- again wrong term.
In other words: He *should* gain hp, but he *doesn't.* That's what people are calling a bug, and that's what you are so angry with them for. Yet you seem to agree with them...
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This is honestly a comparatively small issue similar to how cm's freeze didn't affect batrider in dota and it does in dota2, it might shift the interactions between the heroes and add/remove a check for the hero, but it doesn't have a particularly large effect on the meta, in fact, one might argue that it removes a hero's role as a "hard counter" for another, which is good for the overall game. (It'd probably also allow morphling to shine more as the best ranged carry in the game before the inevitable nerf)
Frankly I'm much more concerned about the kunkka lothars+crit mechanics, since that bug/change/fix/whatever makes a hero much better in the overall meta as a carry
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On April 17 2012 05:55 Kupon3ss wrote:
This is honestly a comparatively small issue similar to how cm's freeze didn't affect batrider in dota and it does in dota2, it might shift the interactions between the heroes and add/remove a check for the hero, but it doesn't have a particularly large effect on the meta, in fact, one might argue that it removes a hero's role as a "hard counter" for another, which is good for the overall game. (It'd probably also allow morphling to shine more as the best ranged carry in the game before the inevitable nerf)
Frankly I'm much more concerned about the kunkka lothars+crit mechanics, since that bug/change/fix/whatever makes a hero much better in the overall meta as a carry
What kunkka lothars + crit mechanics? That a crit can proc on his first attack out of WW when using lothars? Can't any hero with crit do the same?
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Yes, but the fact that the bonus dmg from ww can be added to crit is a big deal.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
And combine that with Kunkka's 100% (135% if you've got battlefury) cleave and well..................yeah. That's pretty insane.
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On April 17 2012 05:49 Tryhat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 04:40 Ack1027 wrote:On April 17 2012 04:37 Comeh wrote:On April 17 2012 04:30 Ack1027 wrote:On April 17 2012 04:26 Yoshi- wrote:
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in dota1 morphling wouldn't gain any hp while under the effect of ice blast(when he morphs from agi to str)
in dota2 this does happen • HP freeze prevents most kinds of healing including those from skills or items. Morph's stat morph is not healing, its intended to keep the same hp %. If you are at 50% hp and then drop a vanguard, you should still be at 50% hp. So in fact, what you're complaining about as a bug is not even a bug, its just following the rules of AA's ulti. Buff? And, to respond to your condescending tone, the problem here-in-lies that there is an inconsistency issue between dota 1 and dota 2, and the inconsistency lies in the engine limitation of WC3. The question remains, should we stick with the dota 1 trend and cling to the WC3 engine as close as we can, or stick with how it works in Dota 2? That or I don't understand anything. ? What is so hard to understand about this? Anything that the engine in wc3 did not allow Icefrog to do, he is going to take the opportunity to make it work the way he, the game creator, wants it to work in dota2. As already explained, it's not a bug, it's not a buff, its just that in dota1 morph doesn't keep the same ratio of HP when he morphs. However, if you look at the rules of AA's ulti and Morph's Morph. It should logically follow to anyone who has read those skills that Morph should ' gain hp ' <----- again wrong term. In other words: He *should* gain hp, but he *doesn't.* That's what people are calling a bug, and that's what you are so angry with them for. Yet you seem to agree with them...
The fuck is wrong with people that they can't do simple math?
50% of 1000 HP = 500
50% of 1500 HP = 750
That is why you see Morph's current HP rise not because he's magically gaining HP, relative amounts are the same, quit dealing with absolutes.
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It works like that in HoN and hasn't really affected how well kunkka does in competition from what I've seen. In HoN it's (WW bonus damage + base damage + tide bringer damage)*crit damage amount.
Yes they're different games, but still it doesn't seem like the sort of thing to break everything. It's a lot of farm for those items and it still only really gives him the one big initial hit rather than sustained DPS. You're talking about over 5k gold for those 2 items and you'd still need boots and what not on top of that.
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On April 17 2012 02:16 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 01:58 crms wrote:
Eric Tams from Valve wasn't lying when he said if you queue with a party of big skill differential the MM basically breaks...
I almost always duo queue with my friend, I'm assuming we're in the 'high' range of the 'high' bracket as we generally play vs. the known NADL players, NA pros, and well known pub stompers. I track our stats in excel (cause im a nerd and valve doesn't show us shit) and I tracked a 50 game set. We went 40-10 over this set, that's 78.4% win, pretty good!
This weekend we decided to play with our 'newer' friend but hes a pretty decent player, just only has like 50 wins or so, maybe 70-80 games total. He's much lower in MMR for obvious reasons and queueing with him was a nightmare... We went from a 50 game set of 40-10, to a 13 game set of 2-11. Everygame we got was worse then the next. Our teammates literally had no idea what dota was, yet we still got matched vs good/decent players. We got against jeyo and daisy crew, fogged/solace crew, and other random known players yet we were queueing with our newb friend. The worst part was our teammates were even worse then our 'new' friend. None of the loses were really his fault, but moreso the randoms they matched us up with.
I know it's only beta and I shouldn't give a shit about winning but I honestly can't queue with my friend. The games are complete shit. At least valve acknowledges that the MM breaks when you queue outside your skill range, but I hope they come up with a good fix. It's literally miserably unfun at best to unwinable at worst if I play with my lower level friends.
To be clear this wasn't a stack, just my duo partner +1. Breaks the fuck out of MM.
Well what do you want the game to do? Scenario 1. You get matched vs reasonably good people so you and your duo partner can't smash through the enemy and blow out the game. You end up losing mostly because you have some 'dead' weight Scenario 2. You get matched vs newbies like your +1 and you smash through players with no chance of them winning at all because it's so easy for you and your duo partner to just carry away games. Scenario 3. The game finds a random newb for the other team to balance things out so each team has one really new/bad player. In any case it's going to suck for SOMEONE. They decide to make it suck for the person causing the problem in the first place. yeah it sucks you can't queue with your friend and win at the same time, but what do you expect when you're split across a large MMR game. Queue with him enough and your MMR will stabilize at a point where you guys get good matches. MMR isn't your skill, it's the skill of you + the people you queue with. If you queue with a low tier player then your MMR is going to reflect that as it should.
After making this similiar post on the dota 2 dev boards Eric Tams (valve developer) PM'd me. He asked for my account names and match id's etc., and looked into our games. He agreed the MM was failing and responded with this.
Here is the post he linked:
I've made a change to how a teams get matched based on their skill spread. This should help you get slightly tougher opponents with your two man group and slightly easier opponents with your three man group. Please let me know if you notice any difference when you play again.
I feel for your friend though - it's not fun to be in a position where everyone on the enemy team is better than you. The skill variance in your group of 3 is about the same as a typical team of 5 so if I had to guess he will be the lowest skilled player in most of his games when he groups with you. This might be alleviated as we give out more keys. If more people are able to play with their RL friends we should have more groups with a similar skill variance to your group.
So apparently they have tweaked the MM and it's LIVE NOW. We should all go test it out. I plan to run another 50 game tracking sheet in excel and report back to him per his request.
Valve rocks, I feel like a good beta tester now. LOL.
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So CRMS, it that more so going to be influencing partial pre-made teams or straight up all match lineups? I already realized that until there is a large player-pool, the MM system, will never be brilliant (since it just wont have the numbers of players to match them appropriately). I ask that because, I pretty much only play solo queue (since none of my friends play DotA 2 so I do not have a group to play with, nor a good sense of what type of skill I can match with). So if it makes some of my matches less stressful, than I am really glad.
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On April 17 2012 06:47 Logo wrote:
It works like that in HoN and hasn't really affected how well kunkka does in competition from what I've seen. In HoN it's (WW bonus damage + base damage + tide bringer damage)*crit damage amount.
Yes they're different games, but still it doesn't seem like the sort of thing to break everything. It's a lot of farm for those items and it still only really gives him the one big initial hit rather than sustained DPS. You're talking about over 5k gold for those 2 items and you'd still need boots and what not on top of that.
This actually led to kunkka being a top pick in HoN until both kunkka and crit were nerfed
The problem is that the two items create a situation that's "25% chance that u do 1500 true dmg to the other team upon initiation and instantly win the fight.
It's also more than just the two items stacks, in DotA you couldn't crit out of lothars period~
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On April 17 2012 06:46 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 05:49 Tryhat wrote:On April 17 2012 04:40 Ack1027 wrote:On April 17 2012 04:37 Comeh wrote:On April 17 2012 04:30 Ack1027 wrote:On April 17 2012 04:26 Yoshi- wrote:
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in dota1 morphling wouldn't gain any hp while under the effect of ice blast(when he morphs from agi to str)
in dota2 this does happen • HP freeze prevents most kinds of healing including those from skills or items. Morph's stat morph is not healing, its intended to keep the same hp %. If you are at 50% hp and then drop a vanguard, you should still be at 50% hp. So in fact, what you're complaining about as a bug is not even a bug, its just following the rules of AA's ulti. Buff? And, to respond to your condescending tone, the problem here-in-lies that there is an inconsistency issue between dota 1 and dota 2, and the inconsistency lies in the engine limitation of WC3. The question remains, should we stick with the dota 1 trend and cling to the WC3 engine as close as we can, or stick with how it works in Dota 2? That or I don't understand anything. ? What is so hard to understand about this? Anything that the engine in wc3 did not allow Icefrog to do, he is going to take the opportunity to make it work the way he, the game creator, wants it to work in dota2. As already explained, it's not a bug, it's not a buff, its just that in dota1 morph doesn't keep the same ratio of HP when he morphs. However, if you look at the rules of AA's ulti and Morph's Morph. It should logically follow to anyone who has read those skills that Morph should ' gain hp ' <----- again wrong term. In other words: He *should* gain hp, but he *doesn't.* That's what people are calling a bug, and that's what you are so angry with them for. Yet you seem to agree with them... The fuck is wrong with people that they can't do simple math? 50% of 1000 HP = 500 50% of 1500 HP = 750 That is why you see Morph's current HP rise not because he's magically gaining HP, relative amounts are the same, quit dealing with absolutes.
He's talking about under the influence of AA ulti ><
The fuck is wrong with people who don't read but still answer.
Everyone agrees and yet we still have aggressive and condescending posts explaining what everyone is agreeing about.
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On April 17 2012 07:28 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 06:47 Logo wrote:
It works like that in HoN and hasn't really affected how well kunkka does in competition from what I've seen. In HoN it's (WW bonus damage + base damage + tide bringer damage)*crit damage amount.
Yes they're different games, but still it doesn't seem like the sort of thing to break everything. It's a lot of farm for those items and it still only really gives him the one big initial hit rather than sustained DPS. You're talking about over 5k gold for those 2 items and you'd still need boots and what not on top of that. This actually led to kunkka being a top pick in HoN until both kunkka and crit were nerfed The problem is that the two items create a situation that's "25% chance that u do 1500 true dmg to the other team upon initiation and instantly win the fight. It's also more than just the two items stacks, in DotA you couldn't crit out of lothars period~
What was the nerf? I took a peek around before posting and flag still seems the same as tide bringer.
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EPT
