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Netherlands45349 Posts
On February 19 2012 00:54 Graviton wrote:
Anyone watching Na'Vi vs Mski in TPL right now? In the second game they've picked forgespirirt Invoker solo mid, support defensive jungle Juggernaut assisting a QoP Lesh lane on bot. The QoP is going a SS build, and is incapable of casting SS on Venomancer due to a bug.
I just watched the vod, you can check it out on http://www.twitch.tv/thepremierleague/b/308965749 if anyone wonders btw
This game felt like Na'Vi trolling and destroying Mski with just smart play
but really noone kills the jugg wards-.-.
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To be fair that is less a strategy more a troll...a lot of these top non asian teams realize how little the asian teams play so I don't look into these matches much at all...
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
I'd personally rather watch a one sided stomp, than a game which is even, but both teams are making a lot of mistakes... At least you get to see one team playing well, instead of all 10 players failing.
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On February 19 2012 05:03 Zlasher wrote:
To be fair that is less a strategy more a troll...a lot of these top non asian teams realize how little the asian teams play so I don't look into these matches much at all...
its bother me quite a bit that these top gaming talent in the asian dota scene cant really play the game full time.
Outside of Korea, gaming as a fulltime job is almost unheard of and Asian parents expectation etc will never let them do that.
Sad to see they got out played by Navi but it is expected.... Hope some major corporation pick up EHOME and start a legit league in China to legitimizing esports.
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Not sure if anybody just watched Darer(artstyle +m5) vs RMB(unknowns) in the Its Gosu Monthly Madness qualifier..... all I can say is watch the vod if you missed it. So ridiculous.
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hmmm im really worried that as we have this many new contents and tournament coming out... there is still no one at the high level scene dedicating to educate new players about the game. Without a good education system, the game will simply die out by time bc it cant gain audience from outside the scene.
Somebody please be day9 of dota -_-
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On February 19 2012 08:26 NB wrote:
hmmm im really worried that as we have this many new contents and tournament coming out... there is still no one at the high level scene dedicating to educate new players about the game. Without a good education system, the game will simply die out by time bc it cant gain audience from outside the scene.
Somebody please be day9 of dota -_-
It won't die out because it has a massive following already. Potential growth could be hurt though. The problem is that dota players in general will not have a good understanding of the game no matter how much you explain it to them - the best the majority could achieve is copy builds from their teachers which does not guarantee success. In starcraft it's easier because all you got is 3 races and you're on your own - Dota has less mechanics but the players just can't grasp the fundamentals well enough because they don't care/are too dumb and they have to play in a team.
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Well hopefully there will be good tutorials for basics made by valve. And syndereN gives good tips often on his stream.
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On February 19 2012 08:52 LAN-f34r wrote:
Well hopefully there will be good tutorials for basics made by valve. And syndereN gives good tips often on his stream.
I'll second this. If you want to learn the game then watch synderen's stream. He almost always talks about the reasoning behind what hes doing, and how you should be playing certain situations.
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Hey phil, how can I watch the Gosu monthly madness?
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On February 19 2012 07:24 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 05:03 Zlasher wrote:
To be fair that is less a strategy more a troll...a lot of these top non asian teams realize how little the asian teams play so I don't look into these matches much at all... its bother me quite a bit that these top gaming talent in the asian dota scene cant really play the game full time. Outside of Korea, gaming as a fulltime job is almost unheard of and Asian parents expectation etc will never let them do that. Sad to see they got out played by Navi but it is expected.... Hope some major corporation pick up EHOME and start a legit league in China to legitimizing esports.
The majority of top Asian teams, specifically the Chinese, but also SEA players are still playing DotA 1 competitively, and dedicating far more time to it, given the higher volume of DotA 1 competitions in Asia than Dota 2 competitions. I don't think the recent results of many Asian teams are particularly indicative of the inability to practice heavily.
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Thank you sir! Great matches so far. It is something different, though, watching FIRE vs DeeDee or Na'Vi vs any team. The level of play with the top teams right now is just so incredibly high. It is pretty interesting comparing these games and the mistakes that are made. Helps you get a feel for what makes the very best that much better.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 19 2012 07:24 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 05:03 Zlasher wrote:
To be fair that is less a strategy more a troll...a lot of these top non asian teams realize how little the asian teams play so I don't look into these matches much at all... its bother me quite a bit that these top gaming talent in the asian dota scene cant really play the game full time. Outside of Korea, gaming as a fulltime job is almost unheard of and Asian parents expectation etc will never let them do that. Sad to see they got out played by Navi but it is expected.... Hope some major corporation pick up EHOME and start a legit league in China to legitimizing esports.
They can't play DotA 2 full time because they're playing DotA 1 full time. The scene in China, as well as other SEA countries, is very well developed, teams have stable sponsors (well, to a point--overly frequent team reshuffling is probably something you could fault Chinese DotA for), with full-time players, and there are stable recurring leagues. I would argue that the overall professionalism of the Chinese DotA scene surpasses that of Western DotA, and is rivaled only by Korean BW/SC2 (have you seen the G-League finals studio?).
Honestly if DK, iG, LGD, or Panda actually swapped to playing DotA 2 full-time, they would have absolutely no trouble. I could compare it to Flash/Jaedong/Bisu switching to SC2--it would probably be an unfair exaggeration, as Chinese DotA probably isn't THAT far ahead of the rest of the world, but there would be some merit to the comparison. When EHOME took 2nd at ESWC, they arguably weren't even a top 5 team in China anymore (820 retired, 357 and Dai left the team for Nv.Cn soon after ESWC).
As far as EHOME goes, Crystal, 357, Dai (ex-EHOME), KingJ (ex-Nv.Cn), and Awoke (ex-iG) are currently looking for sponsors, so we'll hopefully see some of the EHOME players competing again soon. Though they'll probably be competing primarily in DotA 1 until the Chinese scene swaps over.
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On February 19 2012 08:26 NB wrote:
hmmm im really worried that as we have this many new contents and tournament coming out... there is still no one at the high level scene dedicating to educate new players about the game. Without a good education system, the game will simply die out by time bc it cant gain audience from outside the scene.
Somebody please be day9 of dota -_-
The main issue is that individual performance matters less.
Day9 can say these are the things you need to improve, these are ideas you can incorporate, these are things that you can bear in mind, but an awful team is an awful team. There's always something you can do personally, sure, but you are not the only person in the game. I want people get into this game, to see a day9 of dota appear.. but I don't even know if a day9 style thing would work.
I'm going to be on the coaching thing half as much as I play when it starts working, but ultimately dota is about decision making and reading the flow of the game - not about execution. Take the DD vs EG game 2 - basically everything that EG did from about 10 minutes in, even though it looked like they were losing from a naive perspective, was trying to stunt DD's momentum. Yeah, they were 2-8 down, but they were in a better overall position imo than when they were 2-3 down. You can probably cover everything that you need to at a low level in a few hours. Past that it's decision making.
The best you can do with dota is try to explain concepts and then give examples of how they play out, it's so hard to consistently analyse and replicate strategy because everything is so conditional. Combine that with that the pro teams, the pro players don't play the same mode as the majority (CM vs AP) and an awful lot of what you can analyse goes out the window. You can look at a team's composition and decide when their power peaks, when your power peaks, whether you are, in mtg terms, control or beatdown - but even then it's incredibly hard to accurately peg that, and when team fights can come down to being in or out of position for one of ten heroes, there are very few lessons that you can easily glean. Combine with that the subjectivity of an awful lot of dota, and you have an incredibly difficult subject to explain in a both coherent and entertaining manner. Day9 is awesome because he can disseminate information, as well as being fun to watch. I think the main problem is that the professional players have a cohesive plan when picking, and you can see that unfolding - when Na'Vi are picking and playing you can see how they want to gank and push, when fire are playing you can see how they want to force team fights and rely on their superior execution (watch fire vs dignitas in the infused cup) but this is all about teams implementing strategy, there are few tactics that you can look at, and like I said - they'd be gone in a few hours.
There could be a day9 for low-mid clan war potentials, but that wouldn't necessarily attract the masses the way that it can in SC(2) - pro teams are playing a different game, they're maximising efficiency and strategy, whereas public games are often about minimising weaknesses and often about tactics, with very little true decision making.
I dunno, maybe I'm being a little negative, and I'd love to know what others would like to see in a day9 of dota, but I don't know how it would work. There's plenty of opportunity for the funday monday equivalents - all necro teams, all orchid teams, no boots teams, only items that include persevereance, no stuns, no escape mechs, everyone has to get a chicken every time they die... the list is enormous.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 19 2012 10:32 lozarian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The main issue is that individual performance matters less.
Day9 can say these are the things you need to improve, these are ideas you can incorporate, these are things that you can bear in mind, but an awful team is an awful team. There's always something you can do personally, sure, but you are not the only person in the game. I want people get into this game, to see a day9 of dota appear.. but I don't even know if a day9 style thing would work.
I'm going to be on the coaching thing half as much as I play when it starts working, but ultimately dota is about decision making and reading the flow of the game - not about execution. Take the DD vs EG game 2 - basically everything that EG did from about 10 minutes in, even though it looked like they were losing from a naive perspective, was trying to stunt DD's momentum. Yeah, they were 2-8 down, but they were in a better overall position imo than when they were 2-3 down. You can probably cover everything that you need to at a low level in a few hours. Past that it's decision making.
The best you can do with dota is try to explain concepts and then give examples of how they play out, it's so hard to consistently analyse and replicate strategy because everything is so conditional. Combine that with that the pro teams, the pro players don't play the same mode as the majority (CM vs AP) and an awful lot of what you can analyse goes out the window. You can look at a team's composition and decide when their power peaks, when your power peaks, whether you are, in mtg terms, control or beatdown - but even then it's incredibly hard to accurately peg that, and when team fights can come down to being in or out of position for one of ten heroes, there are very few lessons that you can easily glean. Combine with that the subjectivity of an awful lot of dota, and you have an incredibly difficult subject to explain in a both coherent and entertaining manner. Day9 is awesome because he can disseminate information, as well as being fun to watch. I think the main problem is that the professional players have a cohesive plan when picking, and you can see that unfolding - when Na'Vi are picking and playing you can see how they want to gank and push, when fire are playing you can see how they want to force team fights and rely on their superior execution (watch fire vs dignitas in the infused cup) but this is all about teams implementing strategy, there are few tactics that you can look at, and like I said - they'd be gone in a few hours.
There could be a day9 for low-mid clan war potentials, but that wouldn't necessarily attract the masses the way that it can in SC(2) - pro teams are playing a different game, they're maximising efficiency and strategy, whereas public games are often about minimising weaknesses and often about tactics, with very little true decision making.
I dunno, maybe I'm being a little negative, and I'd love to know what others would like to see in a day9 of dota, but I don't know how it would work. There's plenty of opportunity for the funday monday equivalents - all necro teams, all orchid teams, no boots teams, only items that include persevereance, no stuns, no escape mechs, everyone has to get a chicken every time they die... the list is enormous.
I think you're wrong in saying that DotA isn't suited to having a "Day9"--in part because 2009 already does this sort of commentary/teaching for the Chinese DotA scene. He's been producing a mix of individual hero guides, commentaries of professional games/scrims, and general gameplay lessons for a little over a year now. He just has no English-language equivalent, and apart from occasional subtitling, there's no concerted community effort to bring his content to the English language.
A lot of his videos are also not relevant to DotA 2 yet as well.
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On February 19 2012 10:32 lozarian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:26 NB wrote:
hmmm im really worried that as we have this many new contents and tournament coming out... there is still no one at the high level scene dedicating to educate new players about the game. Without a good education system, the game will simply die out by time bc it cant gain audience from outside the scene.
Somebody please be day9 of dota -_- The main issue is that individual performance matters less. Day9 can say these are the things you need to improve, these are ideas you can incorporate, these are things that you can bear in mind, but an awful team is an awful team. There's always something you can do personally, sure, but you are not the only person in the game. I want people get into this game, to see a day9 of dota appear.. but I don't even know if a day9 style thing would work. I'm going to be on the coaching thing half as much as I play when it starts working, but ultimately dota is about decision making and reading the flow of the game - not about execution. Take the DD vs EG game 2 - basically everything that EG did from about 10 minutes in, even though it looked like they were losing from a naive perspective, was trying to stunt DD's momentum. Yeah, they were 2-8 down, but they were in a better overall position imo than when they were 2-3 down. You can probably cover everything that you need to at a low level in a few hours. Past that it's decision making. The best you can do with dota is try to explain concepts and then give examples of how they play out, it's so hard to consistently analyse and replicate strategy because everything is so conditional. Combine that with that the pro teams, the pro players don't play the same mode as the majority (CM vs AP) and an awful lot of what you can analyse goes out the window. You can look at a team's composition and decide when their power peaks, when your power peaks, whether you are, in mtg terms, control or beatdown - but even then it's incredibly hard to accurately peg that, and when team fights can come down to being in or out of position for one of ten heroes, there are very few lessons that you can easily glean. Combine with that the subjectivity of an awful lot of dota, and you have an incredibly difficult subject to explain in a both coherent and entertaining manner. Day9 is awesome because he can disseminate information, as well as being fun to watch. I think the main problem is that the professional players have a cohesive plan when picking, and you can see that unfolding - when Na'Vi are picking and playing you can see how they want to gank and push, when fire are playing you can see how they want to force team fights and rely on their superior execution (watch fire vs dignitas in the infused cup) but this is all about teams implementing strategy, there are few tactics that you can look at, and like I said - they'd be gone in a few hours. There could be a day9 for low-mid clan war potentials, but that wouldn't necessarily attract the masses the way that it can in SC(2) - pro teams are playing a different game, they're maximising efficiency and strategy, whereas public games are often about minimising weaknesses and often about tactics, with very little true decision making. I dunno, maybe I'm being a little negative, and I'd love to know what others would like to see in a day9 of dota, but I don't know how it would work. There's plenty of opportunity for the funday monday equivalents - all necro teams, all orchid teams, no boots teams, only items that include persevereance, no stuns, no escape mechs, everyone has to get a chicken every time they die... the list is enormous.
I keep up with Purge DotA, and I feel that he provides a decent "Day9-esque" effect, although I don't feel he's as entertaining to watch. He provides that, those concepts of the game rather than things you execute, if you know what I mean? Perhaps there are better people out there I don't know about though :3
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I think my main problem is that pro dota and pub dota are so far apart, they're a different game. Pro sc2 and random pub sc2 are, from the outset, identical. Everyone starts with the same workers, the same options and the same potential strategies. You have idra vs sen, and it's the same as anyone else playing zvz - just that they have more techniques, strategy, execution and knowledge to play with.
An -ap pub is completely different to a -cm pro game. Internally yes, the gameplay mechanics are the same - but you don't have bans, you can't end up surprising people with an unconventional pick, you can't ensure that X hero isn't played, and it's a scramble for whatever you want to be playing. Not only that but you cannot ensure that the people you're playing with are on the same wavelength in terms of strategy, execution or intent - which is why you often end up plugging holes, rather than creating synergy.
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Just had a sick game, very back and fort from both team and close until the very end. I was the only pub in that team... team pre-made 4 vs 5 on dire
definitely recommend the replay if anyone have time :D
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZuWT3.png)
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On February 19 2012 10:52 lozarian wrote:
I think my main problem is that pro dota and pub dota are so far apart, they're a different game. Pro sc2 and random pub sc2 are, from the outset, identical. Everyone starts with the same workers, the same options and the same potential strategies. You have idra vs sen, and it's the same as anyone else playing zvz - just that they have more techniques, strategy, execution and knowledge to play with.
An -ap pub is completely different to a -cm pro game. Internally yes, the gameplay mechanics are the same - but you don't have bans, you can't end up surprising people with an unconventional pick, you can't ensure that X hero isn't played, and it's a scramble for whatever you want to be playing. Not only that but you cannot ensure that the people you're playing with are on the same wavelength in terms of strategy, execution or intent - which is why you often end up plugging holes, rather than creating synergy.
Well, you can actually play CM in pubs now - other than that you shouldd try playing with 4 friends, that should help alleviate the mixed bag that is matchmaking.
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EPT
