EPTThe post-TI3 Roster Shuffle thread - Page 151
| Forum Index > Dota 2 General |
|
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
| ||
|
Nocticate
Vatican City State2902 Posts
On September 04 2013 04:00 Two_DoWn wrote: And there is the issue. No question the Chinese scene needs a bit of a shake up (although I would argue the roster apocalypse is probably going too far). But roster shakeup+derth of top level competition (in both scrims and online cups) is gonna set the Chinese scene BACK rather than taking them forward. The question is how long it takes for the reset to run its course. I don't think they need to shake up; IMO it's counterproductive. They just need to wake up, stop being complacent, and do their own thing. When iG ran their facerush strategy in late 2012 and early 2013, they were top of the world because they were dictating the game that people had to play. You couldn't play your own game against that. But now they're forced to play the Western game and it's not working for them. Orange at the very least can play their own game because their own game can beat the Western game. In fact, it's arguably more Western than the West. More aggression, more threat from more sources, more pressure in more places. But in their back pocket they always have one of their three cores that's hyper-farmed who they can fall back on--Ohaiyo's Furion, frequently. The Chinese this tournament just didn't have a plan that could rival the West (or SEA). They never really developed their own style in response to 6.78 from what I saw. They were confused and not ready and they responded by simply falling back on their default strategies which didn't really work. | ||
|
hmsrenown
Canada1263 Posts
On September 04 2013 04:09 Two_DoWn wrote: The thing is, what reason does alliance or Navi have to go to china? The best teams are already in europe, they can scrim an play in their timezone from home. It used to be u went for the better competition. Now? Now? Still better competition. Everybody else from the west was demolished by a struggling Chinese scene. Your rationale is short-sighted. Shuffling isn't necessarily a bad thing for Chinese scene. Yes it does have setback potential. But when nth was formed and the EU/NA scene went through ground-breaking changes last year, who was complaining? | ||
|
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On September 04 2013 04:48 hmsrenown wrote: Now? Still better competition. Everybody else from the west was demolished by a struggling Chinese scene. Your rationale is short-sighted. Shuffling isn't necessarily a bad thing for Chinese scene. Yes it does have setback potential. But when nth was formed and the EU/NA scene went through ground-breaking changes last year, who was complaining? That was against chinese teams with at least a year of stability. This is a full reset, and those Chinese teams likely wont have the same level of overall skill and consistency for a while. | ||
|
TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On September 04 2013 04:12 Nocticate wrote: I don't think they need to shake up; IMO it's counterproductive. They just need to wake up, stop being complacent, and do their own thing. When iG ran their facerush strategy in late 2012 and early 2013, they were top of the world because they were dictating the game that people had to play. You couldn't play your own game against that. But now they're forced to play the Western game and it's not working for them. Orange at the very least can play their own game because their own game can beat the Western game. In fact, it's arguably more Western than the West. More aggression, more threat from more sources, more pressure in more places. But in their back pocket they always have one of their three cores that's hyper-farmed who they can fall back on--Ohaiyo's Furion, frequently. The Chinese this tournament just didn't have a plan that could rival the West (or SEA). They never really developed their own style in response to 6.78 from what I saw. They were confused and not ready and they responded by simply falling back on their default strategies which didn't really work. sorry but your statement is just wrong. you argue that ig dictated what game the opponent has to play? did you see what happened at g1 where they got crushed by lgd? no strategy will work forever...people will find ways to counter it sooner or later. and sure the big picture tells us that they got rolled over but dk was the only team to take a map against alliance until the final with playing a perfect 4 protect 1 strategy with antimage as their core (one of their default strategies) i ahve to agree thou that ig and other teams got complacent but you also have to consider problems that are coming up in teams like ig and lgd after staying together a very long time (navi always had their core 3 players but they changed members after every international while lgd and ig had the same 5 members for more than 1 year) they just had to stay together after bad results because valve invited them 3 or 4 months before the tournament started. edit: if you followed the chinese scene in DotA you shouldnt be so suprised...its kinda normal.. | ||
|
teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
On September 04 2013 04:50 Two_DoWn wrote: Are we watching the same game?That was against chinese teams with at least a year of stability. This is a full reset, and those Chinese teams likely wont have the same level of overall skill and consistency for a while. Teams don't get better because they're together for a year. Actually, in every example we have except Fnatic, teams get worse after about a year. The fresh Chinese teams will be much more dangerous than the old dogs iG and LGD were at TI3. | ||
|
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On September 04 2013 04:57 teapoted wrote: Are we watching the same game? Teams don't get better because they're together for a year. Actually, in every example we have except Fnatic, teams get worse after about a year. The fresh Chinese teams will be much more dangerous than the old dogs iG and LGD were at TI3. Eventually? Yes. However, for the first month or 2? I would expect HIGHLY inconsistent play as teams get used to working together. | ||
|
LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
| ||
|
Lodasrecedinhairline
United Kingdom165 Posts
On September 04 2013 04:50 Two_DoWn wrote: That was against chinese teams with at least a year of stability. This is a full reset, and those Chinese teams likely wont have the same level of overall skill and consistency for a while. It's never the skill level that cost the Chinese the TI3... It's the picks and the insight of the current meta game, which this time was all about the Western. The Chinese were too late to adapt to the meta and picks because they thought they were better and ignored the western teams, until Navi put the nail in the coffin and they knew it was too late to do anything. I don't really think they need to go to EU and practice. They just need to pay more attention to the western scene more this time and be more smart and creative. Last year we've seen Naga, Luna, Tiny, and many other supports that were in the Chinese meta before TI2 got picked, and it was the Western teams that had to react to those picks. The only Chinese pick that made it to TI this year was Doom. And they had to react to unusual picks like Clockwerk, Naga support, Wisp, Ursa, Razor. And obviously they failed. | ||
|
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On September 04 2013 07:53 Lodasrecedinhairline wrote: It's never the skill level that cost the Chinese the TI3... It's the picks and the insight of the current meta game, which this time was all about the Western. The Chinese were too late to adapt to the meta and picks because they thought they were better and ignored the western teams, until Navi put the nail in the coffin and they knew it was too late to do anything. I don't really think they need to go to EU and practice. They just need to pay more attention to the western scene more this time and be more smart and creative. Last year we've seen Naga, Luna, Tiny, and many other supports that were in the Chinese meta before TI2 got picked, and it was the Western teams that had to react to those picks. The only Chinese pick that made it to TI this year was Doom. And they had to react to unusual picks like Clockwerk, Naga support, Wisp, Ursa, Razor. And obviously they failed. I use "skill" for a lack of a better term to demonstrate not only play, but strategy as well (especially since strategy and skill are so closely related that you REALLY cant have one without the other). So ya, I would define the Chinese lack of preparedness at TI3 to be a lack of skill. It doesnt matter if you can play the best AM in the world. If your shit gets fucked up by a Wisp so bad that your ability to click things doesnt matter anymore, I call that a lack of skill. After all, once you get past simply being able to micro properly (which a large part of the community can do), the only thing that differentiates players is the ability to know how to react to situations in game. Picking is part of the game, it happens every time you start up. Being good at that and then having the skill to connect the team to the actual game IS a skill I believe. | ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On September 04 2013 08:00 Two_DoWn wrote: I use "skill" for a lack of a better term to demonstrate not only play, but strategy as well (especially since strategy and skill are so closely related that you REALLY cant have one without the other). So ya, I would define the Chinese lack of preparedness at TI3 to be a lack of skill. It doesnt matter if you can play the best AM in the world. If your shit gets fucked up by a Wisp so bad that your ability to click things doesnt matter anymore, I call that a lack of skill. A lot of it comes from a wrong understanding of the current version that was encouraged from the get go. Ever since the patch it was considered an early "teamfight oriented version" from everyone who mattered in the Chinese scene. Add to that that iG was busy being iG, LGD sticking to that understanding till the bitter end every time it mattered and iG and DK both (incorrectly) assuming this version if about a split push oriented style which they tried to learn as quickly as they could during a tournament. In the end there was only DK and Na'Vi who figured things out, with Orange realizing that their original classy Seadota style is awesome for this version. I attribute TongFu's success more to their easier time in the bracket (fnatic iG sup) and actually them not exactly known for their great drafts might have saved their ass as well. In general I'd consider Faith, Burning or Xiao8 the stronger drafters but their weak understanding just threw them back too much. | ||
|
Lodasrecedinhairline
United Kingdom165 Posts
On September 04 2013 08:00 Two_DoWn wrote: I use "skill" for a lack of a better term to demonstrate not only play, but strategy as well (especially since strategy and skill are so closely related that you REALLY cant have one without the other). So ya, I would define the Chinese lack of preparedness at TI3 to be a lack of skill. It doesnt matter if you can play the best AM in the world. If your shit gets fucked up by a Wisp so bad that your ability to click things doesnt matter anymore, I call that a lack of skill. After all, once you get past simply being able to micro properly (which a large part of the community can do), the only thing that differentiates players is the ability to know how to react to situations in game. Picking is part of the game, it happens every time you start up. Being good at that and then having the skill to connect the team to the actual game IS a skill I believe. And you don't need to go to EU to learn about the picks and the meta. It will definitely be better if the game stays the same, but the game will change again and many of these heroes in the current meta might not be playable anymore. Remember Morphling, Lycan, or Invoker from last year? The meta game will change, and whoever gets the better insight and understanding will get the upper hand. You said its the skill, but that's not the main reason of their failure. It's their attitude through out the year that blinded them. They thought they were better so whatever the western team picked, they'll be able to deal with it, and they were wrong. We've seen so many stupid excuses about the Wisp and Gyro. Remember those excuses? But in the end they couldn't deal with them. And no, you can definitely have the brain and good strategies, but have not so good skills. Sorry about this but the clear examples would be Synderen and Winter. Your logics about the newly formed teams are a bit flawed. Teams usually get very strong when they first created. Remember NTH and EG last year at Dreamhack? Or Liquid when they first came out and had an undefeated streak for weeks? LGD.int at G-1 Or Tongfu in DSL? Things got worse when new teams started losing. So the most important thing is not how to play together as a new team, but how to get better. EG and LGD.int failed to do so while NTH and Navi got through it better. Even if they're winning hard, you can't judge anything from the first few months of the newly formed teams. | ||
|
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On September 04 2013 08:39 Lodasrecedinhairline wrote: And you don't need to go to EU to learn about the picks and the meta. It will definitely be better if the game stays the same, but the game will change again and many of these heroes in the current meta might not be playable anymore. Remember Morphling, Lycan, or Invoker from last year? The meta game will change, and whoever gets the better insight and understanding will get the upper hand. You said its the skill, but that's not the main reason of their failure. It's their attitude through out the year that blinded them. They thought they were better so whatever the western team picked, they'll be able to deal with it, and they were wrong. We've seen so many stupid excuses about the Wisp and Gyro. Remember those excuses? But in the end they couldn't deal with them. And no, you can definitely have the brain and good strategies, but have not so good skills. Sorry about this but the clear examples would be Synderen and Winter. Your logics about the newly formed teams are a bit flawed. Teams usually get very strong when they first created. Remember NTH and EG last year at Dreamhack? Or Liquid when they first came out and had an undefeated streak for weeks? LGD.int at G-1 Or Tongfu in DSL? Things got worse when new teams started losing. So the most important thing is not how to play together as a new team, but how to get better. EG and LGD.int failed to do so while NTH and Navi got through it better. Even if they're winning hard, you can't judge anything from the first few months of the newly formed teams. My point with new teams is that BY THE TIME we saw NTH for example, they had spent a ton of time playin tiny tournaments for experience working together. No team of 5 will be anything like what they will eventually become in the first few weeks. Western teams have the luxury of hiding behind qualifiers and mini cups. The chinese scene will be on display from day 1. Id be amazed if the new teams looked anywhere near as good as they will become for at least a month or so. | ||
|
teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
Fogged Korok Inphinity 1437 Bdiz Peterpandam | ||
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On September 04 2013 04:09 Two_DoWn wrote: The thing is, what reason does alliance or Navi have to go to china? The best teams are already in europe, they can scrim an play in their timezone from home. It used to be u went for the better competition. Now? because apart from alliance and na`vi, the other western teams are still not as good as chinese teams. | ||
|
CrazyBirdman
Germany3509 Posts
On September 04 2013 08:51 teapoted wrote: Dignitas Fogged Korok Inphinity 1437 Bdiz Peterpandam Sounds like a solid team, who is Petterpandam though, their manager? | ||
|
ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
On September 04 2013 08:51 teapoted wrote: Dignitas Fogged Korok Inphinity 1437 Bdiz Peterpandam Korok and Bdiz leaving their respective teams was no surpise, but 1437 joining up was a bit of a shocker. | ||
|
pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On September 04 2013 09:00 CrazyBirdman wrote: Sounds like a solid team, who is Petterpandam though, their manager? A HoN pro also went by the name of Franzzii. Quite popular on IXDL. Goes by ppd in Dota 2. Actually it's likely an error as ppd is on Stay Free (a team with other HoN pros) and his team was listed below Dignitas. | ||
|
Lodasrecedinhairline
United Kingdom165 Posts
On September 04 2013 08:51 teapoted wrote: Dignitas Fogged Korok Inphinity 1437 Bdiz Peterpandam What a surprise!?! | ||
|
ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
On September 04 2013 09:02 pdd wrote: A HoN pro also went by the name of Franzzii. Quite popular on IXDL. Goes by ppd in Dota 2. Ppd is also under Stay Free, another team competing in the same tourney | ||
| ||
