On October 20 2013 08:14 734pot wrote: If I'm understanding it right I don't think the 30% stat share loss is really significant on meepo, as it only applies to bonus stats from items. Its pretty rare that you'd actually get any stat items before your aghs apart from treads, which still would give you the stats as each meepo gets them. The base armour nerf isnt that significant either i think, he still has 4.22 base armour.
It's the Tranqs nerf that did it. Talking about his jungle antics though (stacking, farming camps at the same time). It's hard to sustain the clones without Tranqs anymore.
The level 4 early clone is for laning presence.
Ah yeah I didn't consider how the tranquils change would affect him. I guess it might just change how you farm the jungle, just rotate between small camp and stacking hard/medium camps perhaps? Guess I'll just have to wait to see the non-stop notail meepo stream when the patch is implemented.
On October 20 2013 08:27 barbsq wrote: So, there was some drama in the thread awhile back about the whole pudge hook giving free pathing in certain areas. I played around with it for awhile and here are some results i've found:
In all of the pictures, red indicates places where lina gets free pathing when she's hooked, green means lina gets NO pathing when she is hooked.
This one was the most interesting imo. Pudge has a small little box where lina doesn't get pathing if he hooks from there. It's basically standing on the bush, but there was some wiggle room when i was experimenting. ________________________________________________________________________________________
Pudge can't hook anywhere on this cliff. However, he can hook from any area in the trees to the right of the cliff. ________________________________________________________________________________________
No hooking on this cliff either, orange areas are non-blinkable, I couldn't get on them no matter how much i tried. ________________________________________________________________________________________
No hooking on this cliff, it's the exact same on the opposite, radiant side mountain. ________________________________________________________________________________________
Pudge CAN hook anywhere in this area, no pathing given to lina. ________________________________________________________________________________________
Same story, pudge can hook anywhere in here without giving pathing. ________________________________________________________________________________________
This one is a little weird. Whenever pudge hooks from either yellow box, lina gets teleported to the green box, and pudge can't actually autoattack from the yellow boxes to the green. You can dismember and rot from the left box, but can only rot from the bottom box if lina is close to the bottom of the green area. I was struggling with dismembers. ________________________________________________________________________________________
Pudge can hook from both of the areas below. Also note that all cliff areas around the rosh pit are green too.
Lastly, there's a cute interaction between blink and hook where if you cast blink as you're hooking, pudge will blink immediately after the hook grabs. The most similar thing I can compare this to is a VS swap. I'll try and put a video up to show this, but I think it's pretty easy to imagine.
i wouldn't say that new tranquil are good for supports as a general rule tho, since autoattack harass, pulling, and denying all break the regen, not no mention any random creep hits will take it off as well. I pretty much see it being useful strictly for roamers.
On October 20 2013 08:14 734pot wrote: I don't think the 30% stat share loss is really significant on meepo, as it only applies to bonus stats from items. Its pretty rare that you'd actually get any stat items before your aghs apart from treads, which still would give you the stats as each meepo gets them. The base armour nerf isnt that significant either i think, he still has 4.22 base armour.
Treads give you extra stats... 30% of whatever treads give you, including the bonus the clones get themselves. That's why treads were such a good choice for meepo. I'm guessing since tranquils suck now, meepo should just get treads?
On October 20 2013 09:48 barbsq wrote: i wouldn't say that new tranquil are good for supports as a general rule tho, since autoattack harass, pulling, and denying all break the regen, not no mention any random creep hits will take it off as well. I pretty much see it being useful strictly for roamers.
It's rare that supports finish their upgraded boots during laning phase to begin with, and for post-laning phase, 60 MS + 4 Armor for 975 gold is a better deal than what Treads/Phase give you when you don't make good use of autoattack stats--even if you outright ignore Tranquils ever being in an un-broken state.
People are too focused on Tranquils being easy to break--and are totally ignoring the fact that broken Tranquils are actually still good. Even in their broken state, Tranquils have a 10 MS advantage over all non-Travels Boots, and retain the full armor value. You wouldn't buy Tranquils for the regen anymore, but there are a LOT of heroes that don't use the autoattack stats on Treads/Phase or the mana on Arcanes and really like the MS+armor at reduced price that Tranquils gives.
Arcanes users will still get Arcanes and some supports with autoattack-focused kits will continue to buy Treads (e.g. Silencer), but pretty much any support that ever bought Phase JUST for the MS (CM, VS, etc.) are likely to just prefer Tranquils now.
I'm wondering if essence aura not procing from items was really necessary now than tranquil boots don't even have an active ability. It doesn't sound too broken if it just worked on buckler.
On October 20 2013 09:48 barbsq wrote: i wouldn't say that new tranquil are good for supports as a general rule tho, since autoattack harass, pulling, and denying all break the regen, not no mention any random creep hits will take it off as well. I pretty much see it being useful strictly for roamers.
It's rare that supports finish their upgraded boots during laning phase to begin with, and for post-laning phase, 60 MS + 4 Armor for 975 gold is a better deal than what Treads/Phase give you when you don't make good use of autoattack stats--even if you outright ignore Tranquils ever being in an un-broken state.
People are too focused on Tranquils being easy to break--and are totally ignoring the fact that broken Tranquils are actually still good. Even in their broken state, Tranquils have a 10 MS advantage over all non-Travels Boots, and retain the full armor value. You wouldn't buy Tranquils for the regen anymore, but there are a LOT of heroes that don't use the autoattack stats on Treads/Phase or the mana on Arcanes and really like the MS+armor at reduced price that Tranquils gives.
Arcanes users will still get Arcanes and some supports with autoattack-focused kits will continue to buy Treads (e.g. Silencer), but pretty much any support that ever bought Phase JUST for the MS (CM, VS, etc.) are likely to just prefer Tranquils now.
Tranqs are now a moderately worse version of original Phase Boots that happen to be significantly cheaper.
Original Phase Boots were unbelievably good and practically obsoleted Agility carries by themselves.
tranquil will be good all hero because 1. broken tranquil in an active lane is still worth the MS 2. it helps any hero stay active on map, either roaming or during rotation
i think this is a huge buff for tranquil hm... anyone who still prefers to jungle for the first 4 minutes of the game? well, i think the point is that icefrog wants to bring you into action asap
gold/time increase tranquil change in favor of roaming heros jungle xp share reliable gold gain
all of above features are just encourage more ganks and movements on the map
25 kills on each time 8 minutes into the game those games are fun to play and fun to watch
On October 20 2013 11:04 SeakayKu wrote: tranquil will be good all hero because 1. broken tranquil in an active lane is still worth the MS 2. it helps any hero stay active on map, either roaming or during rotation
i think this is a huge buff for tranquil hm... anyone who still prefers to jungle for the first 4 minutes of the game? well, i think the point is that icefrog wants to bring you into action asap
gold/time increase tranquil change in favor of roaming heros jungle xp share reliable gold gain
all of above features are just encourage more ganks and movements on the map
25 kills on each time 8 minutes into the game those games are fun to play and fun to watch
Of course, the issue with the plan is how hard supports seem to be falling off in the new patch. Outside of a few rare jungling heroes like Enchantress and Chen, you really don't have any reliable 4 position heroes. Instead, you have two 5 position heroes. This has big implications for the midgame, as it means that if your supports don't manage to do a hell of a lot of work early, they're going to be pretty irrelevant due to underleveling and underfarming. 2 and 3 position heroes will have to control the game, and with OD still being a top-tier pick, the 2 position will rarely be a high-impact midgame hero, and more often something a bit more static. Things only get worse with the buff to Viper. This means that much of the midgame fight potential will be down to the 3 position, and as of right now, two of the best 3 positions are... Prophet and Dark Seer. Yeah, even though they got nerfed. They only get stronger when the supports are forced out of lane, which they certainly are going to be. So now we have an even more awkward situation, where teams are forced to choose between letting their supports rot, letting the offlaner roll over their carry, or picking a strong solo laner as their carry and risking a painful lategame. I'm guessing the main things we're going to see is a huge increase in Chen and Enchantress pickups and a sharp dichotomy between incredibly boring, super-safe play and ridiculously aggressive, all-in play.
I really hope I'm wrong about everything here. Except maybe the Chen increase. I like Chen.
25 kills on each time 8 minutes into the game those games are fun to play and fun to watch
Fun to watch if you like to watch the same 15 heroes played over and over again. The patch doesn't change the fact that many of the underplayed heroes don't have the toolset to play such a gank-heavy style.
On October 20 2013 11:25 Acritter wrote:
Of course, the issue with the plan is how hard supports seem to be falling off in the new patch. Outside of a few rare jungling heroes like Enchantress and Chen, you really don't have any reliable 4 position heroes. Instead, you have two 5 position heroes. This has big implications for the midgame, as it means that if your supports don't manage to do a hell of a lot of work early, they're going to be pretty irrelevant due to underleveling and underfarming. 2 and 3 position heroes will have to control the game, and with OD still being a top-tier pick, the 2 position will rarely be a high-impact midgame hero, and more often something a bit more static. Things only get worse with the buff to Viper. This means that much of the midgame fight potential will be down to the 3 position, and as of right now, two of the best 3 positions are... Prophet and Dark Seer. Yeah, even though they got nerfed. They only get stronger when the supports are forced out of lane, which they certainly are going to be. So now we have an even more awkward situation, where teams are forced to choose between letting their supports rot, letting the offlaner roll over their carry, or picking a strong solo laner as their carry and risking a painful lategame. I'm guessing the main things we're going to see is a huge increase in Chen and Enchantress pickups and a sharp dichotomy between incredibly boring, super-safe play and ridiculously aggressive, all-in play.
I really hope I'm wrong about everything here. Except maybe the Chen increase. I like Chen.
Sounds bad but I'm sure not all the changes in the patch will go through. Some of them are so ridiculous that I fail to see how they will survive the test server.
25 kills on each time 8 minutes into the game those games are fun to play and fun to watch
Fun to watch if you like to watch the same 15 heroes played over and over again. The patch doesn't change the fact that many of the underplayed heroes don't have the toolset to play such a gank-heavy style.
Of course, the issue with the plan is how hard supports seem to be falling off in the new patch. Outside of a few rare jungling heroes like Enchantress and Chen, you really don't have any reliable 4 position heroes. Instead, you have two 5 position heroes. This has big implications for the midgame, as it means that if your supports don't manage to do a hell of a lot of work early, they're going to be pretty irrelevant due to underleveling and underfarming. 2 and 3 position heroes will have to control the game, and with OD still being a top-tier pick, the 2 position will rarely be a high-impact midgame hero, and more often something a bit more static. Things only get worse with the buff to Viper. This means that much of the midgame fight potential will be down to the 3 position, and as of right now, two of the best 3 positions are... Prophet and Dark Seer. Yeah, even though they got nerfed. They only get stronger when the supports are forced out of lane, which they certainly are going to be. So now we have an even more awkward situation, where teams are forced to choose between letting their supports rot, letting the offlaner roll over their carry, or picking a strong solo laner as their carry and risking a painful lategame. I'm guessing the main things we're going to see is a huge increase in Chen and Enchantress pickups and a sharp dichotomy between incredibly boring, super-safe play and ridiculously aggressive, all-in play.
I really hope I'm wrong about everything here. Except maybe the Chen increase. I like Chen.
Sounds bad but I'm sure not all the changes in the patch will go through. Some of them are so ridiculous that I fail to see how they will survive the test server.
The main issue I see coming up is that literally ONLY the jungling supports and the brown-boot-wonders like Shadow Demon will be playable. That's a disgustingly limited pool. At the same time, we have to deal with the unbelievably boring OD mid situation. In the end, it actually seems to me like the offlaner might be the most dynamic role in terms of selection.
OD got nerfed more than it may seem. Not so much the changes to OD himself, but with the tranquils change, ranged heroes gettign melee XP from denies (its a nerf to OD - normally OD will get a lot more denies than the opponent, so they are getting a lot more XP than they would be), and the ghost sceptre disabling attack are all significant nerfs.
The new Tranquils are pretty much only better than the old ones on roaming heroes and worse for everyone else. Don't really like the change to be honest. I suppose it's sort of an indirect buff to Vanguard as a lot more heroes might build it now instead of Tranquils for early game sustainability.
I think tranquils will be strong on many heroes, not just supports. For instance: pudge/doom/batrider/invoker. They seem strong on almost any hero that has trouble with low move speed. I think they fill a bigger niche now than the +25 ms tranquils.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VK4c1mK.png)
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