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On October 20 2013 07:16 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 06:38 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Was thinking last night as I fell asleep. The small/medium camp switch thing may have some inadvertent nerfs to certain heroes that would farm them while being mid on radiant side like SF or DS which I suppose evens out the playing field between radiant and dire. However it's also a buff to safelane alchemist's early game gold if your support stacks the small camp he can just rip through them for a grip of fast easy gold while never really leaving the lane. HUGE buff to Radi SF. Now he can stack a Medium camp instead of an Easy camp. As long as it doesn't get too many Mud Golems, he's going to farm that stack hard. If he gets insanely lucky and snags a couple Ogre/Satyr spawns alternating, he's going to dominate mid without really having to do anything.
Well the small camps are good for SF to gather/catch up on souls because they spawn 3+ creeps and die fast. Same reason why this is good now for Alchemist with Greevil Greed because of these small creeps.
Now SF can't reliably catch up with souls or get them fast because of the stronger camp.
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On October 20 2013 07:20 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 07:16 Acritter wrote:On October 20 2013 06:38 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Was thinking last night as I fell asleep. The small/medium camp switch thing may have some inadvertent nerfs to certain heroes that would farm them while being mid on radiant side like SF or DS which I suppose evens out the playing field between radiant and dire. However it's also a buff to safelane alchemist's early game gold if your support stacks the small camp he can just rip through them for a grip of fast easy gold while never really leaving the lane. HUGE buff to Radi SF. Now he can stack a Medium camp instead of an Easy camp. As long as it doesn't get too many Mud Golems, he's going to farm that stack hard. If he gets insanely lucky and snags a couple Ogre/Satyr spawns alternating, he's going to dominate mid without really having to do anything. Well the small camps are good for SF to gather/catch up on souls because they spawn 3+ creeps and die fast. Same reason why this is good now for Alchemist with Greevil Greed because of these small creeps. Now SF can't reliably catch up with souls or get them fast because of the stronger camp.
You're right that he can't get them as fast, but it's a hell of a lot more gold. A medium camp hovers around 100 gold, to the 40-60 or so (please correct me, I don't know the small camp farm as well) of a small camp.
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any news on when the patch might go live?
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On October 20 2013 07:23 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 07:20 trinxified wrote:On October 20 2013 07:16 Acritter wrote:On October 20 2013 06:38 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Was thinking last night as I fell asleep. The small/medium camp switch thing may have some inadvertent nerfs to certain heroes that would farm them while being mid on radiant side like SF or DS which I suppose evens out the playing field between radiant and dire. However it's also a buff to safelane alchemist's early game gold if your support stacks the small camp he can just rip through them for a grip of fast easy gold while never really leaving the lane. HUGE buff to Radi SF. Now he can stack a Medium camp instead of an Easy camp. As long as it doesn't get too many Mud Golems, he's going to farm that stack hard. If he gets insanely lucky and snags a couple Ogre/Satyr spawns alternating, he's going to dominate mid without really having to do anything. Well the small camps are good for SF to gather/catch up on souls because they spawn 3+ creeps and die fast. Same reason why this is good now for Alchemist with Greevil Greed because of these small creeps. Now SF can't reliably catch up with souls or get them fast because of the stronger camp. You're right that he can't get them as fast, but it's a hell of a lot more gold. A medium camp hovers around 100 gold, to the 40-60 or so (please correct me, I don't know the small camp farm as well) of a small camp.
80 vs 100 actually. Not negligible, but not that big
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On October 20 2013 07:16 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 06:38 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Was thinking last night as I fell asleep. The small/medium camp switch thing may have some inadvertent nerfs to certain heroes that would farm them while being mid on radiant side like SF or DS which I suppose evens out the playing field between radiant and dire. However it's also a buff to safelane alchemist's early game gold if your support stacks the small camp he can just rip through them for a grip of fast easy gold while never really leaving the lane. HUGE buff to Radi SF. Now he can stack a Medium camp instead of an Easy camp. As long as it doesn't get too many Mud Golems, he's going to farm that stack hard. If he gets insanely lucky and snags a couple Ogre/Satyr spawns alternating, he's going to dominate mid without really having to do anything.
The small camp gives way more souls per stack than a medium camp which is what SF needs to actually not get dunked on mid. Sure money is nice but if you're not getting souls you're screwed.
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If you need souls that badly you got 100 other problems going on.
There's only a slight time window in the early game where easy camp is super beneficial to SF, medium camp will be better overall now.
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On October 20 2013 07:33 Andre wrote:
If you need souls that badly you got 100 other problems going on.
There's only a slight time window in the early game where easy camp is super beneficial to SF, medium camp will be better overall now.
Actually the chance of Mud Golems spawning is probably higher now so it's not a good trade-off. You can't flash farm those guys.
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On October 20 2013 07:35 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 07:33 Andre wrote:
If you need souls that badly you got 100 other problems going on.
There's only a slight time window in the early game where easy camp is super beneficial to SF, medium camp will be better overall now.
Actually the chance of Mud Golems spawning is probably higher now so it's not a good trade-off. You can't flash farm those guys.
They can't double-stack, though, which is a very good thing. You can clear out a single camp of Mud Golems, but not so much a double stack.
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so is the new changelog live on the main servers?
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Safe lane farm Alchemist sounds good with the new small pull camp.
Actually now that his ultimate was changed, perhaps building STR/HP items are more suitable now than just straight up building up attack speed and damage.
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On October 20 2013 07:38 torm3ntin wrote:
so is the new changelog live on the main servers?
probably next week sometime
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On October 20 2013 07:39 trinxified wrote:
Safe lane farm Alchemist sounds good with the new small pull camp.
Actually now that his ultimate was changed, perhaps building STR/HP items are more suitable now than just straight up building up attack speed and damage.
I would think that with regeneration that high you could alternately focus on resistances to scale up the regen.
BKB and Cuirass will make every point of hp and regenerated hp that much more valuable.
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On October 20 2013 07:46 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 07:39 trinxified wrote:
Safe lane farm Alchemist sounds good with the new small pull camp.
Actually now that his ultimate was changed, perhaps building STR/HP items are more suitable now than just straight up building up attack speed and damage. I would think that with regeneration that high you could alternately focus on resistances to scale up the regen. BKB and Cuirass will make every point of hp and regenerated hp that much more valuable.
BKB definitely a good rush now for Alch, before most ignore it since he'll just tank through most spells. Shadow Blade nerf kinda sucks for him now. And maybe back to Treads now instead of Phase too.
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On October 20 2013 07:39 trinxified wrote:
Safe lane farm Alchemist sounds good with the new small pull camp.
Actually now that his ultimate was changed, perhaps building STR/HP items are more suitable now than just straight up building up attack speed and damage.
New midgame build: Phase->SB->Armlet. After that, standard lategame Alch.
It could probably work. Armlet damage is offset at level 6.
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On October 20 2013 07:54 trinxified wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2013 07:46 Mataza wrote:On October 20 2013 07:39 trinxified wrote:
Safe lane farm Alchemist sounds good with the new small pull camp.
Actually now that his ultimate was changed, perhaps building STR/HP items are more suitable now than just straight up building up attack speed and damage. I would think that with regeneration that high you could alternately focus on resistances to scale up the regen. BKB and Cuirass will make every point of hp and regenerated hp that much more valuable. BKB definitely a good rush now for Alch, before most ignore it since he'll just tank through most spells. Shadow Blade nerf kinda sucks for him now. And maybe back to Treads now instead of Phase too.
Shadow Blade is for initiation. The cooldown won't really affect him that much. It is more that you need to pick better fights. That being said I think we will see more tanky items over shadow blade but that is more because of the ulti then the Shadow blade nerf
edit: Also the movement speed is awesome
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I don't think the 30% stat share loss is really significant on meepo, as it only applies to bonus stats from items. Its pretty rare that you'd actually get any stat items before your aghs apart from treads, which still would give you the stats as each meepo gets them. The base armour nerf isnt that significant either i think, he still has 4.22 base armour.
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Nobody's mentioned the loss of 1800 night vision on Meepo.
I'm unqualified, but I have a feeling that'll be a huge game changer. Especially with the earlier first night.
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On October 20 2013 08:14 734pot wrote:
If I'm understanding it right I don't think the 30% stat share loss is really significant on meepo, as it only applies to bonus stats from items. Its pretty rare that you'd actually get any stat items before your aghs apart from treads, which still would give you the stats as each meepo gets them. The base armour nerf isnt that significant either i think, he still has 4.22 base armour.
It's the Tranqs nerf that did it. Talking about his jungle antics though (stacking, farming camps at the same time). It's hard to sustain the clones without Tranqs anymore.
The level 4 early clone is for laning presence.
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So, there was some drama in the thread awhile back about the whole pudge hook giving free pathing in certain areas. I played around with it for awhile and here are some results i've found:
+ Show Spoiler [Lots of images] +In all of the pictures, red indicates places where lina gets free pathing when she's hooked, green means lina gets NO pathing when she is hooked.This one was the most interesting imo. Pudge has a small little box where lina doesn't get pathing if he hooks from there. It's basically standing on the bush, but there was some wiggle room when i was experimenting. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VK4c1mK.png) ________________________________________________________________________________________ Pudge can't hook anywhere on this cliff. However, he can hook from any area in the trees to the right of the cliff. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZGcJyNA.png) ________________________________________________________________________________________ No hooking on this cliff either, orange areas are non-blinkable, I couldn't get on them no matter how much i tried. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UQpTaor.png) ________________________________________________________________________________________ No hooking on this cliff, it's the exact same on the opposite, radiant side mountain. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Vmns8cZ.png) ________________________________________________________________________________________ Pudge CAN hook anywhere in this area, no pathing given to lina. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/06IddpT.png) ________________________________________________________________________________________ Same story, pudge can hook anywhere in here without giving pathing. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XI8Nc9C.png) ________________________________________________________________________________________ This one is a little weird. Whenever pudge hooks from either yellow box, lina gets teleported to the green box, and pudge can't actually autoattack from the yellow boxes to the green. You can dismember and rot from the left box, but can only rot from the bottom box if lina is close to the bottom of the green area. I was struggling with dismembers. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XdbMrQU.png) ________________________________________________________________________________________ Pudge can hook from both of the areas below. Also note that all cliff areas around the rosh pit are green too. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/s5ydmTc.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UTZRNq5.png)
Lastly, there's a cute interaction between blink and hook where if you cast blink as you're hooking, pudge will blink immediately after the hook grabs. The most similar thing I can compare this to is a VS swap. I'll try and put a video up to show this, but I think it's pretty easy to imagine.
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On October 20 2013 07:33 Andre wrote:
If you need souls that badly you got 100 other problems going on.
There's only a slight time window in the early game where easy camp is super beneficial to SF, medium camp will be better overall now.
There's plenty of reasons you might need souls quickly. If you're getting owned in the lane so you can't get off the ground things would spiral more out of control if you couldn't just grab some souls and stabilize. If you're winning the lane even and get ganked you're suddenly losing the lane now and need to get some souls back to try and regain your position. Its not that someone sucking balls at SF is the only reason those souls are very useful. Granted this only affects radiant really so it was a bit of an unfair advantage but it's a cute trick that's gone now. No one is concerned about SF getting his farm eventually, he always does. Whether that creep camp gives slightly more gold isn't a massive concern since once SF hits his stride, which he will, he can farm the map very fast and efficiently.
In the grand scheme of things its not a giant change, it doesn't affect very many mid heroes. But it is an overall nerf to radiant SF mid, though it only really puts SF mid radiant in line with dire so its not the end of the world. I was just pointing out an unthought-of consequence
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EPT
