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On October 18 2013 12:50 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 12:45 trinxified wrote:
So is Vanguard good again? Still not enough? definitely not enough. need disassemble or a serious stat boost. i mean there are some heroes who can use vanguard reasonably right now, this patch doesn't change much.
Disassemble would be perfect. Stout Shield is solid early on nearly any melee hero, and Ring of Health + Vitality Booster build into strong items. If buying those three items first gives you some cute synergy (saves two item slots, increases HP regen by 1/sec, increases the effect of the shield) it's an appealing sell. Use it while it's strong, then replace it before the luster fades.
But as it stands, to replace Vanguard you have to sell it for only 1112 of your 2225 investment. If you could dissolve it for parts and then use the Ring of Health + Vita Booster for bigger items, you'd only be selling the shield. You'd get back 2100 of your 2225. Much more appealing.
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Yeah, but mostly the heroes you're going to get it on are high-priority as well. So there's a serious cost associated, because without the spell block, Linken's completely blows.
Edit: I think the fear is that disassembling Vanguard makes it way too strong. All the pieces are good and two of them build into other things. It's not like Aquila, where you have two cheap things that become one thing that's the same as the two put together. Aquila breaks down into Basi, which becomes Vlad's, and a Wraith, which becomes nothing. Sange and Yasha is expensive and better than Sange + Yasha, but it also breaks down into items that each become one item with a specific niche. Very few heroes are interested in both Manta and Halberd, so it's basically a finished item in itself. With Vanguard+Arcane you have badass tanking that turns into a Bloodstone. Or a Battlefury and a Heart. Or a Linken's and a Heart. I think you'd have to accept serious, serious nerfs to the stats of Vanguard before disassembling it becomes acceptable.
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Chen/Enchantress into Lich Sacrifice. Think this will be a thing or is denying the xp of regular lane creeps still too useful?
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On October 18 2013 14:10 Velitation wrote:
I'm very curious on the Linken's Sphere change. Seems a little too useful to be able to give another hero one spellblock every 17 seconds.
Edit: 1200 movespeed BS, blink on pudge, possibly end to WC3 support... Times are changing.
It'd be really silly with, say, a Weaver dual core against Bat. The two carries stay close when they think a fight's about to break out, Bat blinks in, Weaver uses the Linken's active on the other core, Lasso is completely wasted.
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On second thought, from a pub player's point of view, this will be fun. I just won't queue AP so that I don't have Riki/Pudge/Niki Lauda Bloodseeker in every game, and I'll have fun with those heroes who got changed and aren't actually that gimmicky (like Venge or a farming Enigma). Also ,yay for building necronomicon!
From a spectator's point of view... let the chaos begin! Love it!
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Are there even heroes that are actually good with Vanguard at the moment? 80% block chance doesn't solve it's terribleness...
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On October 18 2013 14:46 trinxified wrote:
Are there even heroes that are actually good with Vanguard at the moment? 80% block chance doesn't solve it's terribleness...
Well there's Bristleback, and... Bristleback... and... yeah...
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Is this almost 1000 posts since yesterday? Holy crap a lot to read for me...
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Invoker
- EMP restores Invoker for 50% of the mana it drains from heroes (excluding illusions)
- Invoke Max Spells rescaled from 1/2/2/2 to 2
I just can're get over it, jesus. 2 spells for Invoker since level3? Also restoring mana from EMP, that is freaking op.
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On October 18 2013 15:00 739 wrote:
Invoker
- EMP restores Invoker for 50% of the mana it drains from heroes (excluding illusions)
- Invoke Max Spells rescaled from 1/2/2/2 to 2
I just can're get over it, jesus. 2 spells for Invoker since level3? Also restoring mana from EMP, that is freaking op.
Cold Snap + Forged Spirits + Sunstrike at level 4 is gonna be fun.
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On October 18 2013 04:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 03:57 Jehct wrote:
these notes are madness
the day/night, jungle and courier changes will be interesting. laning in general just got a whole lot crazier The night day change makes nights taker become awesome way earlier, but for less time. Will he hit level 6 if he is mid by the first night?
He will not be level 6 at the start of it unless he gets nothing denied +gets a kill.
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On October 18 2013 15:02 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 15:00 739 wrote:
Invoker
- EMP restores Invoker for 50% of the mana it drains from heroes (excluding illusions)
- Invoke Max Spells rescaled from 1/2/2/2 to 2
I just can're get over it, jesus. 2 spells for Invoker since level3? Also restoring mana from EMP, that is freaking op. Cold Snap + Forged Spirits + Sunstrike at level 4 is gonna be fun.
forge spirit* not spirits only 1 at lvl 4 ^^
but yeah invoker will be played more can't wait(my favorite hero to play)
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
from a spectator sport point of view this patch is pretty fantastic. rat doto isn't that fun and it makes for cat and mouse endgames. offlane being hell restricts a handful of heroes to that role and that guy is basically out of the game for the first 10 minutes, making mid the only playmaking lane early unless teams do offensive trilaning. a bunch of random hero changes promote more skills used in team fights and higher volatility.
the only thing that seems a bit out of the ordinary drastic is the neutral exp change.
the pub changes are worse though. bloodseekers will truly blot out the sky
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On October 18 2013 15:17 IcedteaSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 15:02 Daralii wrote:On October 18 2013 15:00 739 wrote:
Invoker
- EMP restores Invoker for 50% of the mana it drains from heroes (excluding illusions)
- Invoke Max Spells rescaled from 1/2/2/2 to 2
I just can're get over it, jesus. 2 spells for Invoker since level3? Also restoring mana from EMP, that is freaking op. Cold Snap + Forged Spirits + Sunstrike at level 4 is gonna be fun. forge spirit* not spirits only 1 at lvl 4 ^^ but yeah invoker will be played more can't wait(my favorite hero to play)
Still, 1 Forged Spirit + Cold Snap harass + sunstrike is fucking deadly combo. Have fun dealing with that mid lane.
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On October 18 2013 14:11 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 12:50 synapse wrote:On October 18 2013 12:45 trinxified wrote:
So is Vanguard good again? Still not enough? definitely not enough. need disassemble or a serious stat boost. i mean there are some heroes who can use vanguard reasonably right now, this patch doesn't change much. Disassemble would be perfect. Stout Shield is solid early on nearly any melee hero, and Ring of Health + Vitality Booster build into strong items. If buying those three items first gives you some cute synergy (saves two item slots, increases HP regen by 1/sec, increases the effect of the shield) it's an appealing sell. Use it while it's strong, then replace it before the luster fades. But as it stands, to replace Vanguard you have to sell it for only 1112 of your 2225 investment. If you could dissolve it for parts and then use the Ring of Health + Vita Booster for bigger items, you'd only be selling the shield. You'd get back 2100 of your 2225. Much more appealing.
I used to think that, but if you make it disassembleable, you are really only buffing timber saw.
Vanguard is bad on ranged heroes. 20 damage block isn't enough, especially considering that you probably didn't start with the stout shield, so you are paying for it at the X min mark.
So what melee heroes want items made from vit+ring? They would be melee heroes that want bloodstone (just timbersaw) and heroes that want a combination of heart/atos and pipe/linkens/bfury/refresher (hood and pipe are rolled into one). No melee wants atos. The heroes that can use refresher + heart (tide, ds, and mag i guess?) all want a blink dagger first, not be making a vanguard in preparations for items they will have at the 50 min mark if they are lucky (except dark seer, who just has better stuff to get anyway). And any hero that is going for bfury just wants to rush the bfury, not make a vanguard first.
So that leaves heart+pipe or linkens. Who wants that? DK? Doom? There may be some extreme cases where melee carries can want to super tank in the late game, but they are such a small percentage compared to tsaw who goes bloodstone every game. And there are some exceptions to the logic above, like vanguard sometimes not being the worst thing ever on viper/razer/od, or an AM who is willing to delay a bfury by 1100 gold to have vanguard first. But again, they are all such nitch cases compared to tsaw.
So those are my thoughts on it. Vanguard isn't disasebleable because tsaw doesn't need to be harder to kill
edit: now that i think about it, ax would fall under that category because he legitimately wants vanguard and heart. i guess pipe/hood wouldn't be bad on him
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So is jungling completely pointless now for most heroes like Lifestealer/Lycan? I know it wasn't the optimal way to play them, but now it feels even less good.
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On October 18 2013 15:35 Torte de Lini wrote:
So is jungling completely pointless now for most heroes like Lifestealer/Lycan? I know it wasn't the optimal way to play them, but now it feels even less good.
good. That means less random junglers in pubs being terrible and contributing nothing for 30 minutes
The only junglers that are gonna exist are gonna be the ones who can be highly active.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
back when vanguard was considered good it was also due to how carried got farmed up. you try to get your 875 in a 2v2 lane, then farm up a vanguard, then you can survive midgame ganks and continue to farm.
but when you have trilane protecting you there's less of a need for early regen items on the carry. instead, more midgame power is needed, and there are now better items for that like drums. vanguard is good against autoattack harass but doesn't provide any utility unlike tranquil boots/drums etc.
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On October 18 2013 15:37 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 15:35 Torte de Lini wrote:
So is jungling completely pointless now for most heroes like Lifestealer/Lycan? I know it wasn't the optimal way to play them, but now it feels even less good. good. That means less random junglers in pubs being terrible and contributing nothing for 30 minutes The only junglers that are gonna exist are gonna be the ones who can be highly active.
Unfortunately, I can foresee many stubborn players who continue their old ways and take even longer to actually do something.
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I'm pretty sure a good amount of people will not read the patch notes and aren't keen on their slower xp rate. They just jungle out of their love for farming/World of Warcraft/PvE'ing.
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EPT
