EPTand http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593742992?page=9#164
PSA: Possible Nerf to your favorite Weapon - Page 4
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Shinna1989
5 Posts
and http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593742992?page=9#164 | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
It's frustrating to reach a point, only to be pulled backwards by Blizzard. I will most likely need a new weapon :\ | ||
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Burrfoot
United States1176 Posts
On January 21 2013 16:28 justiceknight wrote: after reading this thread i was wondering if the OP's calculation are legit or Blizz's staff posted those stats elsewhere.... The "bug" in MinMaxDam weapon calculation was an issue many people found when people were trying to create damage calculators/spreadsheets to see how everyone's listed weapon and paper-doll DPS was determined, and it was pretty obvious it may not have been intentional. On January 21 2013 19:30 Shinna1989 wrote: i recommand reading: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593742992?page=7#132 and http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593742992?page=9#164 As Zoid put it, all that jewelry talk is about two different variables on jewelry that do not work under certain conditions: "MaxDam" and "MinDam", which is not what the "Known Issues" of MinMaxDam which affects weapons and is what the entire speculation and discussion is about. He also had the following predictions which make sense: + Show Spoiler + Retro Nerf = Manticore/ele weapons is paramount, calamity/spites (and others) useless Nerf for 1.07 = Calamity/Spite legacy items rocket in value; while the 1.07 are useless Retro Buff = elemental weapons become useless junk Buff 1.07 = elemental weapons would become useless junk in few weeks ring/amulet 'fix' = hooray we all happy, they work a bit stronger But essentially, everyone is just waiting for Blue to clarify their intentions. On January 21 2013 16:02 Shinna1989 wrote: Lets compare a black weapon and an elemental dmg weapon based on a 6 affix roll: Black Weapon: - Min Dmg - Max. Dmg - Dmg Modifier - Socket - Crit Dmg - 1 Affix left Elemental Dmg Weapon: - Elemental Dmg Affix - Dmg Modfier(only works for the base dmg of the weapon) - Socket - Crit Dmg. - 2 Affix left Your assumption on Black Weapon quoted above is incorrect and part of the confusion Blizzard caused by the initial 1.03 min-max damage listing I mentioned earlier. This topic is about the MinMaxDam affix and not the MinDam and MaxDam affixes that are causing the jewelry oddity. Every affix when randomly rolled usually exclude a bunch of other similar affixes (why you can't get both fire and lightning damage on weapons for example). Take a look at this 6-affix weapon: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GpvehpVl.png) | ||
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Douillos
France3195 Posts
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eluv
United States1251 Posts
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
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nV[MB]
Poland58 Posts
On January 21 2013 21:15 justiceknight wrote: whats a black weapon? One with physical damage and physical damage modifiers, without any elemental dmg. Its commonly referred to as 'black' because of the black background of the weapon image. | ||
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0nLin3
3 Posts
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On January 21 2013 22:48 0nLin3 wrote: I think with doing this they will make the game better cuz I'm kinda tired of seeing that everyone plays with echo no mater his class wd/wizz/barb/monk its kinda stupid now the monks will use their shenlongs etc wizz chantodos etc and now for the barbs bul kathos weapons will be good so if they do this fix the game will look a lot better Well other melee legendaries don't have +0.25 attacks per second, which is what makes EF so good. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On January 21 2013 02:20 Black Gun wrote: back then, the game was just released. this means that the amount of funds and time investment destroyed by the ias nerf was much smaller than what it would be now. additionally, everyone with half a brain could see that ias was overpowered back then. the bug discussed in this thread would, however, not have been noticed if not for the issues with the marquise ruby. i dont think there is a balance problem right now, the only imbalance would be created by the marquise rubies. as i said above: why not just make them +0-300 instead of +150-150? problem solved and no need to piss off the majority of the already tiny remaining playerbase... first: +150-150 = +0-450 or = + 100-250; not 0-300 second: yes they can't nerf all those echoing furies, rares etc. It will not happend! third: "but they did it with ias nerf before ..."; bullshit! ias nerf was announced long before they actually did it. It affected all weapons that had ias in the same way. A weapon that had ias still had ias after and was better for its purpose (high as) than other weapons without ias, the ias was not removed but about halfed. If they now change this black dmg a lot of weapons with min/max dmg and high average dps will become much worse than they were before. They would become actually useless in many cases. Many top tier items what people paid fortunes for would become nearly worthless. fourth: solution: blizzard will fix this for future drops and let the existing weapons stay as they are just like legacy legendaries (e.g. legacy nat set with its overpowered hatred reg bonus). fifth: get one of these black damage weapons now as long as they are available sixth: the people who spread the word about all these black dmg items will be nerfed are gonna buy yours if you sell it now! seventh: just as it happened with the gems and falling prices. (bla bla gems will become worth 100k like on asia, see where they are now). anything else will cause alot of damage to the game | ||
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Burrfoot
United States1176 Posts
This "Known Issue" has been known for ages (since launch), for example, here is the Known Issues List for Patch 1.05 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D0G1l06l.png) Another example of a known issue since LAUNCH making it all the way until 1.07 to "fix" was the widely known Monk-snapshot. It was discovered on launch, listed as a known issue around 1.03 and finally got fixed on the 1.07 PTR. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cn4sKCel.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VDFXIYG.jpg) Echoing Fury: A fast popular weapon. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 35% dps improvement from 1300 to 1757. A fix would make the +150 gem be 27% improvement. Skorn A slow 2-h weapon. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 23% dps improvement from 1428 to 1761. A fix would make the +150 gem be 17% improvement. Manticore A slowish 2-h Crossbow, with a significant amount of damage from Elemental. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 24% dps improvement from 1372 to 1705. A fix would make the +150 gem be 20% improvement. Calamity A VERY FAST 1-h Crossbow. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 51% dps improvement from 1111 to 1682. A fix would make the +150 gem be 35% improvement. On live today Calamity Benefits from the bug, but with a +150 gem, will benefit in a pretty massive bonus that would surely make it better than the equivalent Crit Damage Gem. Shenlong A FAST 1-h fist, with a significant amount of damage from Elemental. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 37% dps improvement from 992 to 1356. A fix would make the +150 gem be 35% improvement. On live today Shenlong DOES NOT BENEFIT from the bug, but WITH a +150 gem, will benefit from the bug, but much less so due to the elemental damage (net 2% vs no bug). | ||
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0nLin3
3 Posts
On January 21 2013 23:52 Nekovivie wrote: Well other melee legendaries don't have +0.25 attacks per second, which is what makes EF so good. Actualy this what makes EF good is that they have 1250 -1300 dmg instead of 1100 - 150 weap dmg are 15k dmg so when u get 1300 ef u are going to have 30k inc dmg becaus its bugged not because of that +0.25 attacks per second.... There are[u] LEG - SET[/u] weapons that cant reach the dps of an rare 62lvl item For example check the 1h-mighty weapons on Diabloprogress and sort them by weapon dmg in the first 50pages there wasnt a single bul kathos weapon. Then tell me again that everything is ok and this black dmg doesnt need a fix , and that a normal echo without bugged black dmg will be better then choosing 2h bul kathos weapons that will give u 130 str - 5 fury and the ww thing ... Those are the one with the highest dmg : http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/4999876 http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/16032308 Now i will leave the choice of thinking is this the way it has to be or they shoud fix this black dmg Also search in ah for average dmg and write 1000 average dmg then check for max fire/arcane etc average dmg u will see the difference. | ||
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
If you look at the actual Affix and Mod data from the game files, the mod values are equal for physical and magical damage: http://d3inferno.com/affixes/group_ElementDmg.html For example, 1H "black" +damage maxes out at: Damage_Weapon_Bonus_Min +286 Damage_Weapon_Bonus_Delta +381 While 1H +Fire Damage maxes out at: Damage_Weapon_Min +286 Damage_Weapon_Delta +381 The difference is that when you look at a maxed out black weapon, the affixes are listed as: +286 Minimum Damage +381 Maximum Damage Whereas a maxed out Fire weapon looks like this: +286-667 Fire Damage =========== The +286 Min and +381 Max physical damage will actually deal LESS damage than the +286-667 Fire Damage. For example, on a hammer with a base 160-300 damage, you'll get the following: Physical (+286 Min/+381 Delta) = "446-828 Damage" (all physical) Fire (+286 Min/+381 Delta) = "446-967 Damage" (160-300 physical, 286-667 Fire) This means that on two weapons with identical affix rolls, the Elemental damage one will actually hit harder if no other affixes are considered. The reason why Physical weapons are overpowered is that +Physical multiplies with +%Damage (Damage_Weapon_Percent_Bonus Mod). If you add a +50% Damage mod to the above two weapons, you get: Physical = "669-1242 Damage" Fire = "526-1117 Damage" (240-450 physical, 286-667 Fire) As you can see, Physical wins by a long shot after +%Damage modifiers. | ||
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Burrfoot
United States1176 Posts
The extra detail listed (assuming its correct) leads me to the following conclusion: Either Blizzard doesn't really know the problem, don't care, or what is most likely, will do absolutely nothing and just wait and see what happens when they introduce the new Ruby and nerf/buff accordingly with Hot Fixes. For reference, really fast weapons will get a pretty major buff (35-50% as mentioned above with the Calamity in my previous post) or this fun thing for my Monk: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Y8atNlPl.png) TL;DR: Expect nothing to happen! Ever! | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On January 20 2013 22:11 Burrfoot wrote: That's about as smart as investing in Holy Weapons for PvP (no holy resist!) (lol, maybe sarcasm) Get an Empyrean Messenger! Cheap! Blizzard needs to make add +% elemental damage work on all damage types and not elemental. Not that it would make much of a difference for most classes but for Wizard, especially with the Orb that grants +5-6% (x3) to elemental damage, that's a huge damage difference. Less item variety, build diversity, etc due to that currently. Some legendaries stuck with mostly elemental damage might be actually viable if they made +% elemental damage worked with both physical damage and elemental damage on weapons. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
Anyway, now the mess is there, and I have my fingers crossed that my archon weapon won't get nerfed... NP though, as I just was about to upgrade it. I just won't do that though, and see what happens at the patch.  On a related note, does this only affect the +X-Y on the weapon itself only? So will +damage on jewelery, and more importantly wiz and WD offhands, also potentially get worse? And if this goes through, it will indirectly also be a nerf to all +X% elemental damage, as they rely on back weapons. So maybe I'll hold off big investments in +elemental damage gear for now as well.  Thanks for the work, and heads up burfoot! | ||
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
On January 22 2013 09:32 Burrfoot wrote: The extra detail listed (assuming its correct) leads me to the following conclusion: Either Blizzard doesn't really know the problem, don't care, or what is most likely, will do absolutely nothing and just wait and see what happens when they introduce the new Ruby and nerf/buff accordingly with Hot Fixes. I think the "+MinMaxDam" on weapons and "+MinMaxDam" on jewelry is intended to work two different ways. Weapon minmaxdam is intended to be additive. so +200 min and +300 max is intended to be "+200-500 damage". This is the way that Elemental damage weapons work. Jewelry and gem minmaxdam is intended to be non-additive. So +200 min and +300 max is intended to be "+200-300 damage". This is what they are fixing and they probably won't change weapon damage at all. (Until an expack at least) | ||
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GhoSt[shield]
Canada2131 Posts
On January 22 2013 09:32 Burrfoot wrote: + Show Spoiler + Time to poop on my own thread. After digging around I found this gem from the 1.04 Known Issues : The extra detail listed (assuming its correct) leads me to the following conclusion: Either Blizzard doesn't really know the problem, don't care, or what is most likely, will do absolutely nothing and just wait and see what happens when they introduce the new Ruby and nerf/buff accordingly with Hot Fixes. For reference, really fast weapons will get a pretty major buff (35-50% as mentioned above with the Calamity in my previous post) or this fun thing for my Monk: + Show Spoiler + TL;DR: Expect nothing to happen! Ever! So...buy up good calamitys? This whole thread gives me a headache, I just wait for Burrfoot's posts and read those. edit1: Ok after reading whole thread again. Hopefully I have this all correct, feel free to comment and clear up missunderstadings. 1) Black weapons could be nerfed/buffed depending on how Blizz chooses to "fix" known issue of mix/max dmg affixes on black weapons ( ie Echoing Fury, Calamity) 2) Elemental Weapons (ie manticore) will not really be affected. 3) Marquise Ruby gems in Fast Attk Speed weapons *may* be better than equivalent emerald when under 50% cc. 4) Buy a good calamity? | ||
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Burrfoot
United States1176 Posts
First, lets assume Blizzard will do absolutely nothing about the MinMaxDam issue as it pertains specifically to weapon damage calculation (and not the jewelery, +1, min>max randomness). I started the thread and thought it was important because I hadn't really gone onto the PTR until 1.07 or paid attention to any "Known Issues" much. I kinda thought known issues would be solved before they go live but when I saw that the MinMaxDam had been known since 1.04, have since concluded that it will likely not be fixed anytime soon (its been a bug since launch) and we should just all assume it will remain and black weapons will still dominate for the most part. So what does that mean for the new Rubies? I decided to compare the top 3 gems, as even my cheap-ass can craft a Perfect Star these days. Assuming they scale as follows: Perfect Star = 90% Crit Damage or +100 min/max Radiant Star = 100% Crit Damage or +125 min/max Marquise Star = 110% Crit Damage or +150 min/max ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/n7ccEYh.png) This chart ESTIMATES what the expected DPS % increase would happen given the weapon dps and aps. For example, a Skorn with 1250 dps @ 1 attack speed has a ruby % damage of ~24%. Now using that Ruby %, pick a column close to the resulting %, find your un-socketed Crit % and Crit Damage and look at the cell. If it is RED, then that means the ruby is better. If it is GREEN then the emerald wins out. The following 2 charts show the difference between 1h+shield and DW. Manticore is a special case since both rubies would be in the same weapon with some slight buff (1x = 24%, 2x = 54% boost). For 1h+shield and single socket 2 handers ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8OtZr5F.png) This chart is for Dual Weild (2 sockets) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ofdCRK1.png) | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
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