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This Thread is no longer valid! Blue has clarified their position:
US Forum Link:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CoEZNfy.png)
With this Follow up response: Link
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/W4PapWB.png)
Essentially stating, they know about, don't care enough to fix it, and will get to it someday.
Basically, this was an issue discovered soon after launch / late beta by folks creating damage calculators and spreadsheets when they discovered a discrepancy on how certain non-elemental damage weapons of certain types with similar min/max damage ranges were calculated. This lead to an IF statement in most weapon dps calculators.
According to Blue, they discovered the bug officially circa July, between Patches 1.03 (IAS nerf) and 1.04 (Legendary++). It was then listed under the "Known Issues" List : + Show Spoiler +. But their exact wording seemed to indicate it was a small error, likely the Min+1, but no one knows for sure. This "Known Bug" carried thru to the 1.05 Known Issues: + Show Spoiler + as well as the 1.06a Live Known Issues + Show Spoiler +. And finally the 1.07 PTR Known Issues list, which is how this thread started (I was unaware how long the fact it was known was).
Thanks for reading, and at this point, I only expect the bug to be fixed at the next MAJOR gear reset - probably the next expansion. When maybe they will buff Elemental Damage to be cool or something.
Original Thread for reference:
+ Show Spoiler +Thought this topic was worth making for those that don't read the patch notes too carefully. The change isn't active on PTR yet as far as I can tell, but it is something that will likely get addressed, specifically due to the new red gems. I always make a point to cash out before every patch , and this is no different. IAS Nerf, New Legendaries, Monk Snapshot etc, I always believe it was my duty to cash out before something bad happens ( Exhibit A: + Show Spoiler + ) The bug fix in the PTR 1.07 notes: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qYimqGL.png) (edit: clarification, it is not in the patch notes, but in the 1.07 Known Issues list, which is why it isn't verifiable nerfage on PTR atm : US Forums Link ) The main hypothetical reason was to allow the new boosted Red Gems to work properly if they are +150 min and +150 max damage, as it would have varying affects on different weapons unless this "bug" is fixed. (Some weapons would benefit much more than others) What popular weapons are likely affected by this bug? "Black Weapons" or those with +Min and +Max. But only if their damage range is fairly close - Windforce is a "black" weapon, but is/will not be affected because it's min damage is much lower than its max damage. The way damage calulations have worked with the MinMaxDam affix, was that since the min damage and bonus was added first, if the Base Min + Min affix > Base Max, then the Base Max got set equal to Base Min + Min affix + 1 , and then the Max affix added on top of the new Base Max. What does that mean exactly? Would probably be best to just show some examples of some popular weapons: Skorn: May get nerfed from 1428.2 to 1309.8![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tPjon0Bl.png) Echoing Fury: May get nerfed from 1300.2 to 1137.8![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uB6mC8Wl.png) Rare Spear: May get nerfed from 1245.6 to 1069.2+ Show Spoiler +Rare Wand: May get nerfed from 1304.1 to 1090.95+ Show Spoiler +Windforce: Not getting 'nerfed' because the base min damage + min affix is still < base max. Interestingly enough if it did calculate, it would be less damage than on live. (1333 vs 1407) + Show Spoiler +As for your beloved Manticores, WKL, Shenlongs (ok maybe just me), they are not affected because they are ELEMENTAL DAMAGE , and are added after the "black" / base damage is affected. Manticore: (elemental damage with +31 max)![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2YFonQhl.png) tl;dr Pay attention to what happens with how Blue responds or addresses this "bug fix" listed above. Your weapons may be worth much much less if it goes thru as suspected. I took the Echoing Fury example above: and with the +150minmax gem on 1.06 now it would bump from 1300 dps to 1757dps. If the bug is fixed, the 1300 would drop to 1137, but with a +150minmax gem would get boosted to 1442, which is what I suspect Blizz's goals are. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/03I8hOMl.png) (side note: if the Windforce listed above had a socket, it would then be bugged with the 150 gem and get boosted from 1407 to 1851 bugged, but only 1752 with it fixed) edit: #2 Adding some additional Info from a post further along the thread: LinkHere is a Link to the "MinMaxDam" affix possibilities Blizzard mentioned: http://www.d3lexicon.com/affix![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/alC439jl.png) As the discussion drifted to buffing instead of nerfing, elemental damage weapons being allowed to benefit from +% Damage on weapon would result in this crappy 200k 992.5 dps Shenlong (ignore the socket) to get buffed to 1133 dps (elem damage moved from after to before the 1.5 multiplier ) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ybklQfal.png) One important twist in this conversation from the 1.03 Patch: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/V0kvSdR.png) This could mean that all that will get fixed is the below amulet will change from "+28-57 damage" to +28 Minimum +29 Maximum. There are other discoveries people have made that I should probably mention where a large +min damage bonus from jewelry 'over-whelms' a +max affix and resulting in zero damage bonus. (but only when testing really low level weapons where the affixes are greater than the base damage - but further testing required for confirmation, each value has several hidden #s associated with it) + Show Spoiler +TL;DR edit #2! This is why the topic was titled: POSSIBLE, no one will know for sure if this is what will happen or if this is what they meant by their vague known bug fix wording. Here is a TL;DR post from further in the thread: On January 22 2013 00:18 Burrfoot wrote:Decided to summarize the MinMaxDam bug and theorized pending bug fix in this post. This doesn't take into account the Jewelery discrepancy or the disparity between Elemental Weapon damage not benefiting from % Damage like "black weapons" do. This post mostly wants to highlight the reasoning behind the why some believe Blizz will end up fixing the weapon damage someday, if not in 1.07. The bug fix is listed as a "Known Issue" currently in 1.07 and we should all know a by now that a whole lot of known issues make it onto the Live servers and stay that way for months. This "Known Issue" has been known for ages (since launch), for example, here is the Known Issues List for Patch 1.05![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D0G1l06l.png) Another example of a known issue since LAUNCH making it all the way until 1.07 to "fix" was the widely known Monk-snapshot. It was discovered on launch, listed as a known issue around 1.03 and finally got fixed on the 1.07 PTR. + Show Spoiler + So just the mere fact the the MinMaxDam bug is listed under the Known Issues in 1.07 and was in the game since launch and not listed in the actual PTR patch notes makes it anyone's guess on to when it will actually get fixed (my money is on Patch 1.12). The main wrinkle is how this issue will interact with the new buffed Rubies, and why I brought it up in this post. Blizzard stated that they wanted Rubies to be an OPTION for certain weapon types, but not the only option. There is some middle ground to play and to me personally, would make sense to require this bug be fixed, as in Blizzard's eyes it would hopefully promote weapon variety and gem variety. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VDFXIYGl.jpg) Echoing Fury:A fast popular weapon. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 35% dps improvement from 1300 to 1757. A fix would make the +150 gem be 27% improvement. SkornA slow 2-h weapon. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 23% dps improvement from 1428 to 1761. A fix would make the +150 gem be 17% improvement. ManticoreA slowish 2-h Crossbow, with a significant amount of damage from Elemental. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 24% dps improvement from 1372 to 1705. A fix would make the +150 gem be 20% improvement. CalamityA VERY FAST 1-h Crossbow. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 51% dps improvement from 1111 to 1682. A fix would make the +150 gem be 35% improvement. On live today Calamity Benefits from the bug, but with a +150 gem, will benefit in a pretty massive bonus that would surely make it better than the equivalent Crit Damage Gem. ShenlongA FAST 1-h fist, with a significant amount of damage from Elemental. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 37% dps improvement from 992 to 1356. A fix would make the +150 gem be 35% improvement. On live today Shenlong DOES NOT BENEFIT from the bug, but WITH a +150 gem, will benefit from the bug, but much less so due to the elemental damage (net 2% vs no bug).
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lol sucks for the #1 echoing fury to get downgraded :p
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On January 20 2013 15:53 RusHXceL wrote:
lol sucks for the #1 echoing fury to get downgraded :p
Yeah, I bet that guy that paid all that money isn't too happy!
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Wow. thank god I invested all my gold on StormShields and not weapons! 
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Hey, have you had confirmation of this by a blue?
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kAbCZJR.jpg) hey sry im to hang to understand it all, but sell or keep this? (archon wiz)
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Well, its DPS - if this change goes live as it is - will be 887,1 as opposed to its current value. Since the patch note includes the fix, and it is actually a known bug, the safest might be to sell it in my humble opinion.
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Good to know; I still think +Min/Max damage will be an important stat though, since I heard somewhere that the boosts to + 6 % elemental damage include min/max in their calculations, compared to not including them for elemental damage items. The price drop might be welcome since they are a bit overpriced right now imo
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kznRYOr.png)
so this will get nerfed quite a bit I guess?
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thanks for the help, also im curious how this will affect % dmg like on triumvirat/tal rasha amu, will that stay the same at least or also wont work anymore after the patch?
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On January 20 2013 19:47 TBO wrote:so this will get nerfed quite a bit I guess?
711,3 DPS 
EDIT: Number is off. this is the worst case scenario.
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I heavily doubt Blizzard is going to nerf existing weapons like that.
Diablo 3 is a game where you can easily calculate how much dollars or euros your character is worth. It would be too obvious for the customers/players to see that they got robbed. They don't need more bad press.
Need more proof.
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IAS nerf in 1.03? I would not be surprised at all if this went through, after all, it is not a nerf, it is a bug fix to balance out their latest feature in the Ruby upgrades...
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Didn't know about the IAS nerf. Only played at release and started again a few weeks ago.
So if they have done something like this before then I guess it's more likely. Still find it hard to believe. Maybe I give Blizzard too much credit.
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Thanks for the heads-up, going to sell some of my weapon collection ;-). I saw yesterday on a stream, how a sword went from 1200ish dps to 1700ish dps with addition of a ruby, i guess this is what they want to tackle. On the other hand, if they do fix this, rubies will still be a poor choice in 99+% of the cases.
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so basicly all my sorcs weapons will be shit? all black dmg cause of elemental % scaling.
hooray... -_-
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Thats really terrible if Blizzards nerfs things afterwards. I just bought a black weapon for 35 mio...
Sold my weapon. If this not goes live I will be very angry! Now I have no weapon at all. WTB barb weapon kkthxbye? :D
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Good thing i just sold my black weapon for archon i suppose =)
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On January 20 2013 18:00 ffswowsucks wrote:Wow. thank god I invested all my gold on StormShields and not weapons!
That's about as smart as investing in Holy Weapons for PvP (no holy resist!) (lol, maybe sarcasm)
On January 20 2013 21:39 Dirkinity wrote:
Sold my weapon. If this not goes live I will be very angry! Now I have no weapon at all. WTB barb weapon kkthxbye? :D
Get an Empyrean Messenger! Cheap!
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On January 20 2013 19:47 TBO wrote:
so this will get nerfed quite a bit I guess?
This is what I got: 828 new dps >_<
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uYrc2qVl.png)
On January 20 2013 18:53 kAra wrote:
hey sry im to hang to understand it all, but sell or keep this? (archon wiz)
This is what I got: 887 new dps >_<
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1WMZyvcl.png)
I'm just a noob wizard (1) so my guess is changing to a Chantodo's Will now would be a safe option. No clue if that works for your build or current gear tho! I went on Diabloprogress to see how this would affect the first higher ranked Wiz. This one uses a bunch of +elemental % gear with his Echoing Fury. His EF would go down from 1282.96 to 1123.605 and his effective DPS dropped from 516k to 469 (46.4k nerf).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pO8KkNjl.png)
As for what Min/Max gem would be required for this Wizard to EQUAL losing his +crit gem with fixed MinMaxDam? +232min/max as seen here:
+ Show Spoiler +
On January 20 2013 20:39 Blix wrote:
I saw yesterday on a stream, how a sword went from 1200ish dps to 1700ish dps with addition of a ruby, i guess this is what they want to tackle. On the other hand, if they do fix this, rubies will still be a poor choice in 99+% of the cases.
I took the Echoing Fury example from my intial post: and with the +150minmax gem on 1.06 now it would bump from 1300 dps to 1757dps. If the bug is fixed, the 1300 would drop to 1137, but with a +150minmax gem would get boosted to 1442, which is what I suspect Blizz's goals are. So I'd start selling those black weapons now for sure! ;-D
(side note: if the Windforce listed above had a socket, it would then be bugged with the 150 gem and get boosted from 1407 to 1851 bugged, but only 1752 with it fixed)
As for this not having happened before: Exhibit A!
When I first read the ias nerf, I immediately sold the IAS weapon I used to beat inferno way back when it was hard:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/utyF7qrl.png)
Except this time it isn't just a balance decision, it's a bug fix where items were being buffed beyond what some of their other equivalents were. Was this as intended when they did the legendary fix? Sadly, I think so.
And remember: whenever you bid on an item, this shows up!
+ Show Spoiler +
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Can we have the excel file that you used to calculate the examples please?
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IMO this is logical, if there was a bug it should be fixed... Yes people might get f***d but hey you heard it here so get out there and sell your shit before .)
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On January 20 2013 22:33 Douillos wrote:
IMO this is logical, if there was a bug it should be fixed... Yes people might get f***d but hey you heard it here so get out there and sell your shit before .)
Well seems to me like they just created this `bug` with their new red gems and now have to balance around their new ´feature´
(which is nobody gonna use probably).
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thx again for the detailed answer, big help : )
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Get an Empyrean Messenger! Cheap!
Spears are terrible for Barbs. Just bought a 1050dps mace with crit/str and ias without socket until 1.0.7 hits. I won't spend much money until 1.0.7 hits. Soo many Black weapons are now on sale and you can't know how bad the nerf is for every weapon.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0Ctobey.jpg?1)
Looks like I should sell this.
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On January 20 2013 22:24 Doso wrote:
Can we have the excel file that you used to calculate the examples please?
You don't want my excel file, its huge and cluttered as it is my random D3 log for crap like my first legendary, level 60, etc. The main equation is explained in the first post. (the "Bugged?" cell is =IF(____>____,1,0) - basic stuff. Also the damage range of the base weapon needs to be guessed and currently base max is unknown due to the bug)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NjqNYHul.png)
On January 20 2013 23:13 iBleeedOrange wrote:
Looks like I should sell this.
Will get nerfed to 884.1 dps, but if you put a Marquise +150 gem into it, it will be 1199! ;-D
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xKXkIoIl.png)
On January 20 2013 22:39 Samba wrote:
Well seems to me like they just created this `bug` with their new red gems and now have to balance around their new ´feature´
(which is nobody gonna use probably).
It's not a new 'bug', been around since the game launched pretty much. When you saw the initial push of new 1.04 legendaries, did it not seem odd that only the ones with "black damage" were good?
Take a look at these 3 Legendary 2-h axes. ilvl 63 61 and 60 and guess which one has +elemental damage.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/S5k7w80l.png)
Same with Swords, Axes, Spear, D: Only the black damage ones were worth even mentioning (Sever, Butchers, 300th)
As a Monk, I remember thinking I was pretty puzzled by why Blizz decided that The Fist of Az'Turrasq (black) would have such a much higher damage range than my beautiful Shenlongs (lightning) or Crystal Fist (holy), (1354+ vs 1030) ALL being ilvl 63.
+ Show Spoiler +
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How bad will this be nerfed? Archon wiz.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aTO7z2Z.png)
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A post from blizz would be nice if this goes through or not.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/c7QlvNt.png)
So I guess the Danetta's Bow doesn't get nerfed because of the similar dmgrange like the Windforce's. But I'm not sure about the Calamity. Would be nice if you could calculate that.
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On January 20 2013 23:44 TheMooseHeed wrote:
How bad will this be nerfed? Archon wiz.
On January 21 2013 00:02 DerBeefman wrote:
So I guess the Danetta's Bow doesn't get nerfed because of the similar dmgrange like the Windforce's. But I'm not sure about the Calamity. Would be nice if you could calculate that.
Rare: 887.1 to 758.5
Danetta: Nothing
Calamity: 1111.3 to 1074.6
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I1LwIP3l.png)
Of course the bigger question is how to play this situation! Either you A) Believe this will happen and sell your Black Weapons now and stock undervalued Elemental Weapons or B) You believe this won't happen and buy some cheap Black Weapons now!
Case for A) It makes sense, it is a bug that clearly doesn't make much sense, and weapons that currently do not get boosted (Danettas, Windforce, most elemental weapons) will get affected by the bug with a +150min/max gem to varying degrees. (Danetta's in 1.07 with a +150 gem and unfixed bug will get boosted from 996 to 1482, making it probably better than a crit damage gem)
Case for B) The quoted blue patch note is only for +avg damage affixes on Jewelery. (I haven't verified if its even bugged, hard to test w/o a full dps calculator) And the current weapon damage calculation bug will be unchanged (to pre-appease the masses) until the expansion when someone can code correctly-er.
Personally, I'm cashed-out, no capital to invest in anything so I'm just waiting to craft some crappy amulets I won't even use because they can't roll spirit regen! But I'm split 50/50 as I don't know who would make the calls on the game direction with no Jay Wilson around I asuume calling the shots. But if PTR gets rushed like it is now, it might be B).....! Don't hate me too much if that happens :o)
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No way in hell this is intentional / will go through... there would be an outrage.
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On January 21 2013 01:41 Pokebunny wrote:
No way in hell this is intentional / will go through... there would be an outrage.
They did it before with the reduced Attack Speed.
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i really doubt this will go through. too many people would ragequit the game. myself included.... (just spent 192m on an echoing fury .....)
in particular, i dont see why they should massively change the weapons of 50% of the playerbase just to balance out a new feature.... why not just make the marquise ruby give +0 min/+300 max dam? problem solved....
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On January 21 2013 01:41 Pokebunny wrote:
No way in hell this is intentional / will go through... there would be an outrage.
Its definitly terrible that Elemental-Damage Weapons are so much worse. So its either buff them or ´nerf black weapons.
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On January 21 2013 02:10 Doso wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 01:41 Pokebunny wrote:
No way in hell this is intentional / will go through... there would be an outrage. They did it before with the reduced Attack Speed.
back then, the game was just released. this means that the amount of funds and time investment destroyed by the ias nerf was much smaller than what it would be now.
additionally, everyone with half a brain could see that ias was overpowered back then. the bug discussed in this thread would, however, not have been noticed if not for the issues with the marquise ruby.
i dont think there is a balance problem right now, the only imbalance would be created by the marquise rubies. as i said above: why not just make them +0-300 instead of +150-150? problem solved and no need to piss off the majority of the already tiny remaining playerbase...
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Well after checking the AH for cashing out my sword it wont even get that much anyway. So not much of a lose even if it does go through at least :D
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On January 21 2013 02:14 Dirkinity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 01:41 Pokebunny wrote:
No way in hell this is intentional / will go through... there would be an outrage. Its definitly terrible that Elemental-Damage Weapons are so much worse. So its either buff them or ´nerf black weapons.
Oh yes please buff my manti <3
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I made a google doc to calculate the DPS change from 1.06 to 1.07. Feel free to add to the OP.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmmRsTeOweASdE1iUkdkZUtZN1V6cExZbXZEQW96TFE
Add in the average base min/max values from here.
Will be sad times if my 1120 dps, lifesteal, socket wand becomes an 890 dps wand. I have a hard time imagining this going through as it will destroy almost all archon builds, but given the IAS change I also wouldn't be surprised.
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On January 21 2013 04:42 Eschaton wrote:I made a google doc to calculate the DPS change from 1.06 to 1.07. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmmRsTeOweASdE1iUkdkZUtZN1V6cExZbXZEQW96TFEAdd in the average base min/max values from here. Will be sad times if my 1120 dps, lifesteal, socket wand becomes an 890 dps wand. I have a hard time imagining this going through as it will destroy almost all archon builds, but given the IAS change I also wouldn't be surprised.
They specifically said that they won't do other changes like that. Now this should be a bit different, as "bug fix", so everything is possible I guess.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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On January 21 2013 04:49 Big G wrote:They specifically said that they won't do other changes like that. Now this should be a bit different, as "bug fix", so everything is possible I guess.
Meh, if it's a bug let them fix it. I hope everyones dps goes down so everything gets a little harder again.
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Edit: I was wrong with my post.
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Every item you posted has %dmg. How does this factor in? If the +%dmg is applied to the base weapon first, wouldn't this alleviate the concern about the min > max ?
I don't think Blizzard would nerf items like this.
I also don't think it would be in the notes if it wasn't "active".....
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So let me get this straight. I haven't been playing D3 in a while, check this, they're nerfing some very strong weapons, but Manticores are NOT being nerfed?
The heck?
Can you still get critical damage AND 2 sockets on them? If so, why the hell aren't the changing that too, or was something to do with critical damage nerfed after patch 1.05 that I haven't read?
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On January 21 2013 05:30 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
So let me get this straight. I haven't been playing D3 in a while, check this, they're nerfing some very strong weapons, but Manticores are NOT being nerfed?
The heck?
Can you still get critical damage AND 2 sockets on them? If so, why the hell aren't the changing that too, or was something to do with critical damage nerfed after patch 1.05 that I haven't read?
The only thing we have straight here is that we don't know anything for certain. The OP was just doing some speculation and "worst case scenario" thinking
Personally I don't think such a dramatic change could possibly enter the game. If so, then I absolutely can't imagine Blizzard not warning people in advance, so if it's going to happen and to the extent the OP describes, we should all know about it well in advance.
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On January 20 2013 16:35 yokohama wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 15:53 RusHXceL wrote:
lol sucks for the #1 echoing fury to get downgraded :p Yeah, I bet that guy that paid all that money isn't too happy!
I dont think he really cares, his stream showed him playing CS GO and other crap, and he was level 50+ paragon when he got it. Probably not that much money for him.
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well, the issue is that it will not only make many weapons much worse, it will also disturb the class balance. almost all barbs use weapons that are affected by this, while almost no dhs do. same for wizards: most cm wizards use chantodos which isnt affected, most archon builds use a black weapon and triumvirate. in general, the value of triumvirate will suffer a lot from this. same for, e.g., zuni boots. so everyone who invested a fortune in almost perfect triumvirates or zuni boots will also be royally pissed off.
what pisses me off the most is that i just spent the majority of my funds on an echoing fury. i had 2 ef's to choose from with almost identical price and dps. since i prefer reliability over burst, i chose the one with higher min and lower max dam. so my 1215 dps 1.06 ef will become a crappy 1030 dps weapon after the patch if this change does indeed go through.
but still i think it would be better to "implement" this bug on elemental damage type weapons as well, or to change the way marquise rubies work. you gotta keep in mind that they want to keep the current playerbase as potential buyers of the expansion and that they dont want to risk alienating potential rmah customers by setting too many precedences of items losing the majority of their value by patches. yes, they do warn everyone about the possibility that this might happen, but still no one will buy items for real money anymore if items are devalued every other month...
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The blue quote is taken from:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7592202049#1
Hello everyone, and welcome to PTR Patch 1.0.7! Below you will find the Known Issues list for our 1.0.7 patch (patch notes are available here).
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MinMaxDam Affix is calculating the damage bonus on weapon incorrectly.
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If blizzard is supposed to change anything about it why its not all over the major d3 fansites like diablofans? Cuz OP so smart and the only person could read this? I realy doubt it.  And keep in mind all legendaries roll based on their own affixes. They only share the base avg. dmg with white weapons and thats it. But feel free to sell your black weapons cheap on ah. Im going to buy em all and resell em with a huge profit. 
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Lol nice, you even kept the lame order of calculations "Bugged!".
On January 21 2013 06:59 Shinna1989 wrote:
And keep in mind all legendaries roll based on their own affixes. They only share the base avg. dmg with white weapons and thats it.
While this is true, the point is that the order in which the weapon damage is calculated just pulls the data from these MinMaxDam Affix, as listed here: http://www.d3lexicon.com/affix
On January 21 2013 06:22 FallDownMarigold wrote:
The only thing we have straight here is that we don't know anything for certain. The OP was just doing some speculation and "worst case scenario" thinking
Pretty much, it was thing I noticed when I couldn't figure out how the shown weapon dps was actually calculated, and the B.Max = B.Min+min+1, and N.Max = B.Max+max but only under certain conditions. The assumption is that weapons that currently don't take advantage of this "double-dip" would with the new rubies, but it's all speculation until Blue clarifies their position as the MinMaxDam Affix is vague enough to cause confusion.
On January 21 2013 06:50 Black Gun wrote:
but still i think it would be better to "implement" this bug on elemental damage type weapons as well, or to change the way marquise rubies work.
That is the other side of the argument, just buff elemental damage to take advantage of % Damage and +Elemental Damage modifiers, and make everyone just as mad when something like this crappy 992.5 shenlong gets buffed to 1133 dps (elem damage moved from after to before the 1.5 multiplier ) This is a cry being made by Demon Hunters afraid Calamity will be nerfed and Manticore will be the only option.
Sure, now I hope I'm not completely wrong and everyone makes fun of my
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sMQpk5zl.png)
But another nod towards the "the 1.07 fix is for jewlry only!!!" prayer comes from this tidbit from the 1.03 patch notes:
Which sort of makes sense since currently on LIVE, you can find jewelry with all sorts of different descriptions of min/max as shown here
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mRbsZ0q.png)
So if the jewelry listing in the picture above gets fixed from "+28-57 damage" to +28 Minimum +29 Maximum it would be the "best case" instead of the "worst case" I described in the first post. There are other discoveries people have made that I should probably mention, but only when testing really low level weapons. (Where a large +min damage bonus from jewelery 'over-whelms' a +max affix and resulting in zero damage bonus.
tl;dr: This is why the topic was titled: POSSIBLE, no one will know for sure if this is what will happen or if this is what they meant by their vague known bug fix.
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f the Base Min + Min affix > Base Max, then the Base Max got set equal to Base Min + Min affix + 1
Thats to prevent havin weapons with higher min then max. dmg. so imo this is intended atm since its possible to roll only mind. dmg on a weapon. If blizzard realy wants to change it then they have to check if there is a min and max. roll ...
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Hum out of topic ... but .. are you the same burrfoot that played wow a gnome warrior on earthen ring ?
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On January 21 2013 04:42 Eschaton wrote:I made a google doc to calculate the DPS change from 1.06 to 1.07. Feel free to add to the OP. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmmRsTeOweASdE1iUkdkZUtZN1V6cExZbXZEQW96TFEAdd in the average base min/max values from here. Will be sad times if my 1120 dps, lifesteal, socket wand becomes an 890 dps wand. I have a hard time imagining this going through as it will destroy almost all archon builds, but given the IAS change I also wouldn't be surprised.
Lol you let anyone to edit it.
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On January 21 2013 09:35 Diminisherqc wrote:
Hum out of topic ... but .. are you the same burrfoot that played wow a gnome warrior on earthen ring ?
You know, I've been asked that more than once while I was playing WoW, and my answer is always: YES! Last time I played was during the 10-day free MoP trial (unimpressed). My epic fail warrior:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Qv9sMbm.png)
On January 21 2013 10:14 RusHXceL wrote:
Lol you let anyone to edit it.
Jeez, people bombed that document.
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On January 21 2013 10:14 RusHXceL wrote:Lol you let anyone to edit it.
I locked the cells that matter. People can save a copy.
Edit: Also people are retards and can't follow directions.
Edit 2: Apparently the "name and protect" function isn't working very well.
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Lets compare a black weapon and an elemental dmg weapon based on a 6 affix roll:
Black Weapon:
- Min Dmg
- Max. Dmg
- Dmg Modifier
- Socket
- Crit Dmg
- 1 Affix left
Elemental Dmg Weapon:
- Elemental Dmg Affix
- Dmg Modfier(only works for the base dmg of the weapon)
- Socket
- Crit Dmg.
- 2 Affix left
So if both weapons roll lets say lifesteal the elemental dmg weapon could still roll a high mainstat on top. If they change the way the dmg/dps calculation is done for black weapons this would lead either to overpowered elemental dmg. weapons or they have to introduce a single affix for the "non elemental dmg" part.
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after reading this thread i was wondering if the OP's calculation are legit or Blizz's staff posted those stats elsewhere....
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If they do nerf weapons accross the board, I see a lot of people quitting.
It's frustrating to reach a point, only to be pulled backwards by Blizzard.
I will most likely need a new weapon :\
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On January 21 2013 16:28 justiceknight wrote:
after reading this thread i was wondering if the OP's calculation are legit or Blizz's staff posted those stats elsewhere....
The "bug" in MinMaxDam weapon calculation was an issue many people found when people were trying to create damage calculators/spreadsheets to see how everyone's listed weapon and paper-doll DPS was determined, and it was pretty obvious it may not have been intentional.
As Zoid put it, all that jewelry talk is about two different variables on jewelry that do not work under certain conditions: "MaxDam" and "MinDam", which is not what the "Known Issues" of MinMaxDam which affects weapons and is what the entire speculation and discussion is about. He also had the following predictions which make sense: + Show Spoiler +Retro Nerf = Manticore/ele weapons is paramount, calamity/spites (and others) useless
Nerf for 1.07 = Calamity/Spite legacy items rocket in value; while the 1.07 are useless
Retro Buff = elemental weapons become useless junk
Buff 1.07 = elemental weapons would become useless junk in few weeks
ring/amulet 'fix' = hooray we all happy, they work a bit stronger
But essentially, everyone is just waiting for Blue to clarify their intentions.
On January 21 2013 16:02 Shinna1989 wrote:
Lets compare a black weapon and an elemental dmg weapon based on a 6 affix roll:
Black Weapon:
- Min Dmg
- Max. Dmg
- Dmg Modifier
- Socket
- Crit Dmg
- 1 Affix left
Elemental Dmg Weapon:
- Elemental Dmg Affix
- Dmg Modfier(only works for the base dmg of the weapon)
- Socket
- Crit Dmg.
- 2 Affix left
Your assumption on Black Weapon quoted above is incorrect and part of the confusion Blizzard caused by the initial 1.03 min-max damage listing I mentioned earlier. This topic is about the MinMaxDam affix and not the MinDam and MaxDam affixes that are causing the jewelry oddity. Every affix when randomly rolled usually exclude a bunch of other similar affixes (why you can't get both fire and lightning damage on weapons for example). Take a look at this 6-affix weapon:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GpvehpVl.png)
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Black weapon's always had too much dps. It's just frightening how long it took blizz to adress this (and now people are going to feel robbed, whereas the truth is they were overpowered).
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United States1251 Posts
I know this is still up in the air, but I have to give a big thank you for the heads up. Had this gone through I would have lost about 180 top end damage, so I upgraded to a Manticore and hopefully I can unload my black weapon on someone unsuspecting. Now the only thing to be mad about is the fact that the ilvl 63 crossbow matches the 60-63 Demon Hunter armor way better than Manticore...
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On January 21 2013 21:15 justiceknight wrote:
whats a black weapon?
One with physical damage and physical damage modifiers, without any elemental dmg. Its commonly referred to as 'black' because of the black background of the weapon image.
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I think with doing this they will make the game better cuz I'm kinda tired of seeing that everyone plays with echo no mater his class wd/wizz/barb/monk its kinda stupid now the monks will use their shenlongs etc wizz chantodos etc and now for the barbs bul kathos weapons will be good so if they do this fix the game will look a lot better
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On January 21 2013 22:48 0nLin3 wrote:
I think with doing this they will make the game better cuz I'm kinda tired of seeing that everyone plays with echo no mater his class wd/wizz/barb/monk its kinda stupid now the monks will use their shenlongs etc wizz chantodos etc and now for the barbs bul kathos weapons will be good so if they do this fix the game will look a lot better
Well other melee legendaries don't have +0.25 attacks per second, which is what makes EF so good.
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On January 21 2013 02:20 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 02:10 Doso wrote:On January 21 2013 01:41 Pokebunny wrote:
No way in hell this is intentional / will go through... there would be an outrage. They did it before with the reduced Attack Speed. back then, the game was just released. this means that the amount of funds and time investment destroyed by the ias nerf was much smaller than what it would be now. additionally, everyone with half a brain could see that ias was overpowered back then. the bug discussed in this thread would, however, not have been noticed if not for the issues with the marquise ruby. i dont think there is a balance problem right now, the only imbalance would be created by the marquise rubies. as i said above: why not just make them +0-300 instead of +150-150? problem solved and no need to piss off the majority of the already tiny remaining playerbase...
first: +150-150 = +0-450 or = + 100-250; not 0-300
second: yes they can't nerf all those echoing furies, rares etc. It will not happend!
third: "but they did it with ias nerf before ..."; bullshit! ias nerf was announced long before they actually did it. It affected all weapons that had ias in the same way. A weapon that had ias still had ias after and was better for its purpose (high as) than other weapons without ias, the ias was not removed but about halfed. If they now change this black dmg a lot of weapons with min/max dmg and high average dps will become much worse than they were before. They would become actually useless in many cases. Many top tier items what people paid fortunes for would become nearly worthless.
fourth: solution: blizzard will fix this for future drops and let the existing weapons stay as they are just like legacy legendaries (e.g. legacy nat set with its overpowered hatred reg bonus).
fifth: get one of these black damage weapons now as long as they are available
sixth: the people who spread the word about all these black dmg items will be nerfed are gonna buy yours if you sell it now!
seventh: just as it happened with the gems and falling prices. (bla bla gems will become worth 100k like on asia, see where they are now).
anything else will cause alot of damage to the game
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Decided to summarize the MinMaxDam bug and theorized pending bug fix in this post. This doesn't take into account the Jewelery discrepancy or the disparity between Elemental Weapon damage not benefiting from % Damage like "black weapons" do. This post mostly wants to highlight the reasoning behind the why some believe Blizz will end up fixing the weapon damage someday, if not in 1.07. The bug fix is listed as a "Known Issue" currently in 1.07 and we should all know a by now that a whole lot of known issues make it onto the Live servers and stay that way for months.
This "Known Issue" has been known for ages (since launch), for example, here is the Known Issues List for Patch 1.05
Another example of a known issue since LAUNCH making it all the way until 1.07 to "fix" was the widely known Monk-snapshot. It was discovered on launch, listed as a known issue around 1.03 and finally got fixed on the 1.07 PTR. + Show Spoiler + So just the mere fact the the MinMaxDam bug is listed under the Known Issues in 1.07 and was in the game since launch and not listed in the actual PTR patch notes makes it anyone's guess on to when it will actually get fixed (my money is on Patch 1.12). The main wrinkle is how this issue will interact with the new buffed Rubies, and why I brought it up in this post. Blizzard stated that they wanted Rubies to be an OPTION for certain weapon types, but not the only option. There is some middle ground to play and to me personally, would make sense to require this bug be fixed, as in Blizzard's eyes it would hopefully promote weapon variety and gem variety.
Echoing Fury:
A fast popular weapon. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 35% dps improvement from 1300 to 1757. A fix would make the +150 gem be 27% improvement.
Skorn
A slow 2-h weapon. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 23% dps improvement from 1428 to 1761. A fix would make the +150 gem be 17% improvement.
Manticore
A slowish 2-h Crossbow, with a significant amount of damage from Elemental. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 24% dps improvement from 1372 to 1705. A fix would make the +150 gem be 20% improvement.
Calamity
A VERY FAST 1-h Crossbow. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 51% dps improvement from 1111 to 1682. A fix would make the +150 gem be 35% improvement. On live today Calamity Benefits from the bug, but with a +150 gem, will benefit in a pretty massive bonus that would surely make it better than the equivalent Crit Damage Gem.
Shenlong
A FAST 1-h fist, with a significant amount of damage from Elemental. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 37% dps improvement from 992 to 1356. A fix would make the +150 gem be 35% improvement. On live today Shenlong DOES NOT BENEFIT from the bug, but WITH a +150 gem, will benefit from the bug, but much less so due to the elemental damage (net 2% vs no bug).
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On January 21 2013 23:52 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 22:48 0nLin3 wrote:
I think with doing this they will make the game better cuz I'm kinda tired of seeing that everyone plays with echo no mater his class wd/wizz/barb/monk its kinda stupid now the monks will use their shenlongs etc wizz chantodos etc and now for the barbs bul kathos weapons will be good so if they do this fix the game will look a lot better Well other melee legendaries don't have +0.25 attacks per second, which is what makes EF so good.
Actualy this what makes EF good is that they have 1250 -1300 dmg instead of 1100 - 150 weap dmg are 15k dmg so when u get 1300 ef u are going to have 30k inc dmg becaus its bugged not because of that +0.25 attacks per second....
There are[u] LEG - SET[/u] weapons that cant reach the dps of an rare 62lvl item For example check the 1h-mighty weapons on Diabloprogress and sort them by weapon dmg in the first 50pages there wasnt a single bul kathos weapon.
Then tell me again that everything is ok and this black dmg doesnt need a fix , and that a normal echo without bugged black dmg will be better then choosing 2h bul kathos weapons that will give u 130 str - 5 fury and the ww thing ...
Those are the one with the highest dmg :
http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/4999876
http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/16032308
Now i will leave the choice of thinking is this the way it has to be or they shoud fix this black dmg
Also search in ah for average dmg and
write 1000 average dmg then check for max fire/arcane etc average dmg u will see the difference.
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The thing is, this bug affects ALL weapons, not just "black" (physical damage) weapons. +Physical damage is actually inherently weaker than elemental damage, it's just that it can multiply with +%Damage and elemental damage can't.
If you look at the actual Affix and Mod data from the game files, the mod values are equal for physical and magical damage:
http://d3inferno.com/affixes/group_ElementDmg.html
For example, 1H "black" +damage maxes out at:
Damage_Weapon_Bonus_Min +286
Damage_Weapon_Bonus_Delta +381
While 1H +Fire Damage maxes out at:
Damage_Weapon_Min +286
Damage_Weapon_Delta +381
The difference is that when you look at a maxed out black weapon, the affixes are listed as:
+286 Minimum Damage
+381 Maximum Damage
Whereas a maxed out Fire weapon looks like this:
+286-667 Fire Damage
===========
The +286 Min and +381 Max physical damage will actually deal LESS damage than the +286-667 Fire Damage. For example, on a hammer with a base 160-300 damage, you'll get the following:
Physical (+286 Min/+381 Delta) = "446-828 Damage" (all physical)
Fire (+286 Min/+381 Delta) = "446-967 Damage" (160-300 physical, 286-667 Fire)
This means that on two weapons with identical affix rolls, the Elemental damage one will actually hit harder if no other affixes are considered.
The reason why Physical weapons are overpowered is that +Physical multiplies with +%Damage (Damage_Weapon_Percent_Bonus Mod). If you add a +50% Damage mod to the above two weapons, you get:
Physical = "669-1242 Damage"
Fire = "526-1117 Damage" (240-450 physical, 286-667 Fire)
As you can see, Physical wins by a long shot after +%Damage modifiers.
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Time to poop on my own thread. After digging around I found this gem from the 1.04 Known Issues :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cn4sKCel.png)
The extra detail listed (assuming its correct) leads me to the following conclusion:
Either Blizzard doesn't really know the problem, don't care, or what is most likely, will do absolutely nothing and just wait and see what happens when they introduce the new Ruby and nerf/buff accordingly with Hot Fixes.
For reference, really fast weapons will get a pretty major buff (35-50% as mentioned above with the Calamity in my previous post) or this fun thing for my Monk: + Show Spoiler + that gets bumped ~40% to 1846 dps! Woo! But with ~50% crit chance, a +150 Ruby would STILL be a dps loss vs the 110% Emerald. With less crit %, the Ruby would likely win out (CC% vs weapon APS). I guess they may nerf it if they deem it too powerful or buff it even more if they don't. Doubt PvP balance will factor in to anything. So I guess the DH with soon-to-be awesome Calamitys can breathe easy and everyone with slower weapons and crit just keep doing the same.
TL;DR: Expect nothing to happen! Ever!
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On January 20 2013 22:11 Burrfoot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 18:00 ffswowsucks wrote:Wow. thank god I invested all my gold on StormShields and not weapons! That's about as smart as investing in Holy Weapons for PvP (no holy resist!) (lol, maybe sarcasm) Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 21:39 Dirkinity wrote:
Sold my weapon. If this not goes live I will be very angry! Now I have no weapon at all. WTB barb weapon kkthxbye? :D Get an Empyrean Messenger! Cheap!
Blizzard needs to make add +% elemental damage work on all damage types and not elemental.
Not that it would make much of a difference for most classes but for Wizard, especially with the Orb that grants +5-6% (x3) to elemental damage, that's a huge damage difference.
Less item variety, build diversity, etc due to that currently.
Some legendaries stuck with mostly elemental damage might be actually viable if they made +% elemental damage worked with both physical damage and elemental damage on weapons.
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Lol, how can they make such a mess of something so easy and straightforward... Let +24-57 damage add 24 to min damage, and 57 to max damage... how hard can it be? >_> Why did they have to split up the min and max damage changes on two lines??? Those programmers that made that mess for sure should be moved to another project. :D
Anyway, now the mess is there, and I have my fingers crossed that my archon weapon won't get nerfed... NP though, as I just was about to upgrade it. I just won't do that though, and see what happens at the patch.
On a related note, does this only affect the +X-Y on the weapon itself only? So will +damage on jewelery, and more importantly wiz and WD offhands, also potentially get worse?
And if this goes through, it will indirectly also be a nerf to all +X% elemental damage, as they rely on back weapons. So maybe I'll hold off big investments in +elemental damage gear for now as well.
Thanks for the work, and heads up burfoot!
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On January 22 2013 09:32 Burrfoot wrote:
The extra detail listed (assuming its correct) leads me to the following conclusion:
Either Blizzard doesn't really know the problem, don't care, or what is most likely, will do absolutely nothing and just wait and see what happens when they introduce the new Ruby and nerf/buff accordingly with Hot Fixes.
I think the "+MinMaxDam" on weapons and "+MinMaxDam" on jewelry is intended to work two different ways.
Weapon minmaxdam is intended to be additive. so +200 min and +300 max is intended to be "+200-500 damage". This is the way that Elemental damage weapons work.
Jewelry and gem minmaxdam is intended to be non-additive. So +200 min and +300 max is intended to be "+200-300 damage". This is what they are fixing and they probably won't change weapon damage at all. (Until an expack at least)
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On January 22 2013 09:32 Burrfoot wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Time to poop on my own thread. After digging around I found this gem from the 1.04 Known Issues : The extra detail listed (assuming its correct) leads me to the following conclusion: Either Blizzard doesn't really know the problem, don't care, or what is most likely, will do absolutely nothing and just wait and see what happens when they introduce the new Ruby and nerf/buff accordingly with Hot Fixes. For reference, really fast weapons will get a pretty major buff (35-50% as mentioned above with the Calamity in my previous post) or this fun thing for my Monk: + Show Spoiler + that gets bumped ~40% to 1846 dps! Woo! But with ~50% crit chance, a +150 Ruby would STILL be a dps loss vs the 110% Emerald. With less crit %, the Ruby would likely win out (CC% vs weapon APS). I guess they may nerf it if they deem it too powerful or buff it even more if they don't. Doubt PvP balance will factor in to anything. So I guess the DH with soon-to-be awesome Calamitys can breathe easy and everyone with slower weapons and crit just keep doing the same. TL;DR: Expect nothing to happen! Ever!
So...buy up good calamitys? This whole thread gives me a headache, I just wait for Burrfoot's posts and read those.
edit1: Ok after reading whole thread again. Hopefully I have this all correct, feel free to comment and clear up missunderstadings.
1) Black weapons could be nerfed/buffed depending on how Blizz chooses to "fix" known issue of mix/max dmg affixes on black weapons ( ie Echoing Fury, Calamity)
2) Elemental Weapons (ie manticore) will not really be affected.
3) Marquise Ruby gems in Fast Attk Speed weapons *may* be better than equivalent emerald when under 50% cc.
4) Buy a good calamity?
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New Ruby Analysis
First, lets assume Blizzard will do absolutely nothing about the MinMaxDam issue as it pertains specifically to weapon damage calculation (and not the jewelery, +1, min>max randomness). I started the thread and thought it was important because I hadn't really gone onto the PTR until 1.07 or paid attention to any "Known Issues" much. I kinda thought known issues would be solved before they go live but when I saw that the MinMaxDam had been known since 1.04, have since concluded that it will likely not be fixed anytime soon (its been a bug since launch) and we should just all assume it will remain and black weapons will still dominate for the most part.
So what does that mean for the new Rubies? I decided to compare the top 3 gems, as even my cheap-ass can craft a Perfect Star these days. Assuming they scale as follows:
Perfect Star = 90% Crit Damage or +100 min/max
Radiant Star = 100% Crit Damage or +125 min/max
Marquise Star = 110% Crit Damage or +150 min/max
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/n7ccEYh.png)
This chart ESTIMATES what the expected DPS % increase would happen given the weapon dps and aps. For example, a Skorn with 1250 dps @ 1 attack speed has a ruby % damage of ~24%.
Now using that Ruby %, pick a column close to the resulting %, find your un-socketed Crit % and Crit Damage and look at the cell. If it is RED, then that means the ruby is better. If it is GREEN then the emerald wins out. The following 2 charts show the difference between 1h+shield and DW. Manticore is a special case since both rubies would be in the same weapon with some slight buff (1x = 24%, 2x = 54% boost).
For 1h+shield and single socket 2 handers
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8OtZr5F.png)
This chart is for Dual Weild (2 sockets)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ofdCRK1.png)
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Interesting, so for well over 90% of the playerbase, you feel ruby will be the stronger option?
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Burrfoot, does your table apply to dual wield? eg. i have 2 weaps, both with socket and emerald. As i understand it, the emerald applies to both weaps and the ruby only to the one it's in? If i have a slow and a fast weapon, would it make sense to put an emerald in the slow one and a ruby in the fast one.. etc etc =) Also, i assume that the critdamage in your table refers to the crit dmg you have after removing the emerald?
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=394773
On January 23 2013 03:40 Blix wrote:
Burrfoot, does your table apply to dual wield? eg. i have 2 weaps, both with socket and emerald. As i understand it, the emerald applies to both weaps and the ruby only to the one it's in? If i have a slow and a fast weapon, would it make sense to put an emerald in the slow one and a ruby in the fast one.. etc etc =) Also, i assume that the critdamage in your table refers to the crit dmg you have after removing the emerald?
Added the missing chart. Your % ruby is averaged between your two weapons if they are diff speeds. I'm leaning towards emeralds for both still.
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no wonder i bought a 1257 dps cd + socket wand so cheap.... now what to.... do flip it or keep it.
my main weapon is a chants anyways so im not too worried, but i liked the dps increase for pvp and archon runs.
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Blue post from bnet....
"We do our best to ensure that we alert the community in advance of game changes (just like we did for the Legendary Item Improvements), and in this particular case, I wanted to jump in to reassure everyone that “black weapons” (i.e. weapons with the MinMaxDamage Affix) are not going to be nerfed in patch 1.0.7, and we have no plans going forward to nerf them.
Known Issues are just that, bugs that we know about. They are NOT necessarily bugs that are going to be fixed. The MinMaxDamage bug has been a bug known to us since July of last year, however, we did not want to fix a bug that would effectively nerf a large number of existing weapons. That’s why we did not fix the bug in any previous patch that we've released since the bug was found, nor are we fixing it in patch 1.0.7. Currently, the plan is that at such a time that we address the bug, the bug fix will only apply to newly created items, so as to not adversely affect existing items."
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593743038?page=15#294
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Great news, I updated the first post. Pretty much expected nothing to happen after seeing the MinMaxDam being listed all the way back in 1.04 known issues.
For those that like colorful pictures:
US Forum Link:
Historical Screenshot: + Show Spoiler +
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great news. the interesting part are the last 2 lines though:
Currently, the plan is that at such a time that we address the bug, the bug fix will only apply to newly created items, so as to not adversely affect existing items
this basically means that one day they will fix the bug, which will make all weapons created from that point on much weaker. thus, it might be a wise idea to stock black dam weapons, hoping that they one day become highly-sought "legacy black damage weapons". just like everyone who bought a nats set in the early patches to sell it now would make a huge profit.
what i want to say is that you should consider to not sell your old black-dam weaps once you purchased an upgrade - getting some mil for them now might be a bad deal when you can sell them for much higher in the future.
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On January 23 2013 08:19 Black Gun wrote:great news. the interesting part are the last 2 lines though: Show nested quote +Currently, the plan is that at such a time that we address the bug, the bug fix will only apply to newly created items, so as to not adversely affect existing items this basically means that one day they will fix the bug, which will make all weapons created from that point on much weaker. thus, it might be a wise idea to stock black dam weapons, hoping that they one day become highly-sought "legacy black damage weapons". just like everyone who bought a nats set in the early patches to sell it now would make a huge profit. what i want to say is that you should consider to not sell your old black-dam weaps once you purchased an upgrade - getting some mil for them now might be a bad deal when you can sell them for much higher in the future.
I don't think they will fix the bug until the expack (which would presumably introduce totally different weapons and endgame scaling), it would make too big of a difference in existing itemization.
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On January 21 2013 23:53 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 02:20 Black Gun wrote:On January 21 2013 02:10 Doso wrote:On January 21 2013 01:41 Pokebunny wrote:
No way in hell this is intentional / will go through... there would be an outrage. They did it before with the reduced Attack Speed. back then, the game was just released. this means that the amount of funds and time investment destroyed by the ias nerf was much smaller than what it would be now. additionally, everyone with half a brain could see that ias was overpowered back then. the bug discussed in this thread would, however, not have been noticed if not for the issues with the marquise ruby. i dont think there is a balance problem right now, the only imbalance would be created by the marquise rubies. as i said above: why not just make them +0-300 instead of +150-150? problem solved and no need to piss off the majority of the already tiny remaining playerbase... first: +150-150 = +0-450 or = + 100-250; not 0-300 second: yes they can't nerf all those echoing furies, rares etc. It will not happend!third: "but they did it with ias nerf before ..."; bullshit! ias nerf was announced long before they actually did it. It affected all weapons that had ias in the same way. A weapon that had ias still had ias after and was better for its purpose (high as) than other weapons without ias, the ias was not removed but about halfed. If they now change this black dmg a lot of weapons with min/max dmg and high average dps will become much worse than they were before. They would become actually useless in many cases. Many top tier items what people paid fortunes for would become nearly worthless. fourth: solution: blizzard will fix this for future drops and let the existing weapons stay as they are just like legacy legendaries (e.g. legacy nat set with its overpowered hatred reg bonus). fifth: get one of these black damage weapons now as long as they are available sixth: the people who spread the word about all these black dmg items will be nerfed are gonna buy yours if you sell it now! seventh: just as it happened with the gems and falling prices. (bla bla gems will become worth 100k like on asia, see where they are now). anything else will cause alot of damage to the game
who did exactly explain you what is gonna happen?
I wonder how some people could have expected anything else than this!
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A really bad decision made by blizzard.
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Follow up response: Link US Forums
Essentially stating, they know about (probably), don't care enough to fix it (whatever it is), and will get to it someday (when you least expect it!). Making me feel this. :-D
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On January 23 2013 11:17 0nLin3 wrote:
A really bad decision made by blizzard.
I don't see why, nerfing the majority of the weapons in the game would really upset the playerbase.
Imagine you're just a casual player, you don't read forums or patch notes, you just play.
You see your weapon has gone from 1300 DPS to 1100 overnight. That player would be extremely disappointed/annoyed.
Accepting it would upset the playerbase, and leaving it, is actually the best decision.
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On January 20 2013 15:19 Burrfoot wrote:This Thread is no longer valid! Blue has clarified their position: [...] Thanks for reading, and at this point, I only expect the bug to be fixed at the next MAJOR gear reset - probably the next expansion. When maybe they will buff Elemental Damage to be cool or something. Original Thread for reference: + Show Spoiler +Thought this topic was worth making for those that don't read the patch notes too carefully. The change isn't active on PTR yet as far as I can tell, but it is something that will likely get addressed, specifically due to the new red gems. I always make a point to cash out before every patch , and this is no different. IAS Nerf, New Legendaries, Monk Snapshot etc, I always believe it was my duty to cash out before something bad happens ( Exhibit A: + Show Spoiler + ) The bug fix in the PTR 1.07 notes: (edit: clarification, it is not in the patch notes, but in the 1.07 Known Issues list, which is why it isn't verifiable nerfage on PTR atm : US Forums Link ) The main hypothetical reason was to allow the new boosted Red Gems to work properly if they are +150 min and +150 max damage, as it would have varying affects on different weapons unless this "bug" is fixed. (Some weapons would benefit much more than others) What popular weapons are likely affected by this bug? "Black Weapons" or those with +Min and +Max. But only if their damage range is fairly close - Windforce is a "black" weapon, but is/will not be affected because it's min damage is much lower than its max damage. The way damage calulations have worked with the MinMaxDam affix, was that since the min damage and bonus was added first, if the Base Min + Min affix > Base Max, then the Base Max got set equal to Base Min + Min affix + 1 , and then the Max affix added on top of the new Base Max. What does that mean exactly? Would probably be best to just show some examples of some popular weapons: Skorn: May get nerfed from 1428.2 to 1309.8Echoing Fury: May get nerfed from 1300.2 to 1137.8Rare Spear: May get nerfed from 1245.6 to 1069.2+ Show Spoiler +Rare Wand: May get nerfed from 1304.1 to 1090.95+ Show Spoiler +Windforce: Not getting 'nerfed' because the base min damage + min affix is still < base max. Interestingly enough if it did calculate, it would be less damage than on live. (1333 vs 1407) + Show Spoiler +As for your beloved Manticores, WKL, Shenlongs (ok maybe just me), they are not affected because they are ELEMENTAL DAMAGE , and are added after the "black" / base damage is affected. Manticore: (elemental damage with +31 max)tl;dr Pay attention to what happens with how Blue responds or addresses this "bug fix" listed above. Your weapons may be worth much much less if it goes thru as suspected. I took the Echoing Fury example above: and with the +150minmax gem on 1.06 now it would bump from 1300 dps to 1757dps. If the bug is fixed, the 1300 would drop to 1137, but with a +150minmax gem would get boosted to 1442, which is what I suspect Blizz's goals are. (side note: if the Windforce listed above had a socket, it would then be bugged with the 150 gem and get boosted from 1407 to 1851 bugged, but only 1752 with it fixed) edit: #2 Adding some additional Info from a post further along the thread: LinkHere is a Link to the "MinMaxDam" affix possibilities Blizzard mentioned: http://www.d3lexicon.com/affixAs the discussion drifted to buffing instead of nerfing, elemental damage weapons being allowed to benefit from +% Damage on weapon would result in this crappy 200k 992.5 dps Shenlong (ignore the socket) to get buffed to 1133 dps (elem damage moved from after to before the 1.5 multiplier ) One important twist in this conversation from the 1.03 Patch: This could mean that all that will get fixed is the below amulet will change from "+28-57 damage" to +28 Minimum +29 Maximum. There are other discoveries people have made that I should probably mention where a large +min damage bonus from jewelry 'over-whelms' a +max affix and resulting in zero damage bonus. (but only when testing really low level weapons where the affixes are greater than the base damage - but further testing required for confirmation, each value has several hidden #s associated with it) + Show Spoiler +TL;DR edit #2! This is why the topic was titled: POSSIBLE, no one will know for sure if this is what will happen or if this is what they meant by their vague known bug fix wording. Here is a TL;DR post from further in the thread: On January 22 2013 00:18 Burrfoot wrote:Decided to summarize the MinMaxDam bug and theorized pending bug fix in this post. This doesn't take into account the Jewelery discrepancy or the disparity between Elemental Weapon damage not benefiting from % Damage like "black weapons" do. This post mostly wants to highlight the reasoning behind the why some believe Blizz will end up fixing the weapon damage someday, if not in 1.07. The bug fix is listed as a "Known Issue" currently in 1.07 and we should all know a by now that a whole lot of known issues make it onto the Live servers and stay that way for months. This "Known Issue" has been known for ages (since launch), for example, here is the Known Issues List for Patch 1.05Another example of a known issue since LAUNCH making it all the way until 1.07 to "fix" was the widely known Monk-snapshot. It was discovered on launch, listed as a known issue around 1.03 and finally got fixed on the 1.07 PTR. + Show Spoiler + So just the mere fact the the MinMaxDam bug is listed under the Known Issues in 1.07 and was in the game since launch and not listed in the actual PTR patch notes makes it anyone's guess on to when it will actually get fixed (my money is on Patch 1.12). The main wrinkle is how this issue will interact with the new buffed Rubies, and why I brought it up in this post. Blizzard stated that they wanted Rubies to be an OPTION for certain weapon types, but not the only option. There is some middle ground to play and to me personally, would make sense to require this bug be fixed, as in Blizzard's eyes it would hopefully promote weapon variety and gem variety. Echoing Fury:A fast popular weapon. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 35% dps improvement from 1300 to 1757. A fix would make the +150 gem be 27% improvement. SkornA slow 2-h weapon. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 23% dps improvement from 1428 to 1761. A fix would make the +150 gem be 17% improvement. ManticoreA slowish 2-h Crossbow, with a significant amount of damage from Elemental. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 24% dps improvement from 1372 to 1705. A fix would make the +150 gem be 20% improvement. CalamityA VERY FAST 1-h Crossbow. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 51% dps improvement from 1111 to 1682. A fix would make the +150 gem be 35% improvement. On live today Calamity Benefits from the bug, but with a +150 gem, will benefit in a pretty massive bonus that would surely make it better than the equivalent Crit Damage Gem. ShenlongA FAST 1-h fist, with a significant amount of damage from Elemental. With a +150 gem on 1.06 Live today that would result in a 37% dps improvement from 992 to 1356. A fix would make the +150 gem be 35% improvement. On live today Shenlong DOES NOT BENEFIT from the bug, but WITH a +150 gem, will benefit from the bug, but much less so due to the elemental damage (net 2% vs no bug).
So how much money did you make off this story? I saw quite a few black weapons at crazy low prices ))))))))))
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On January 23 2013 11:55 Burrfoot wrote:Follow up response: Link US ForumsEssentially stating, they know about (probably), don't care enough to fix it (whatever it is), and will get to it someday (when you least expect it!). Making me feel this. :-D
I dont appreciate being rick*rolled in the morning :D
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On January 23 2013 19:58 Douillos wrote:
I dont appreciate being rick*rolled in the morning :D
I don't know what you are talking about!
On January 23 2013 19:57 Douillos wrote:So how much money did you make off this story? I saw quite a few black weapons at crazy low prices ))))))))))
Over 9000!!
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All people who blame blizzard for making this decision in here are significantly wrong. It is quite simple. One the one hand - never run a touching system (or smth like this)! On the other hand nobody has been penalized from this system yet. The guys who got those weapons paid extraordinary high prices and the other weapons are in fact weaker but proportionally cheaper than them. There is no single good reason to interfere into the market now. If they fix the bug in one or the other way for existing items in the future it will only result in: weapons that where purchased for 10-50m will be set to the quality and value of weapons that were purchased for 100m-2b or even more. This results in having a whole bunch of weapons of same quality without any major differences in quality and price. The top tier weapons would drop in value and rarity. Besides creating alot of anger in the community it even would be a bad decision in the view of game design. For this marquis ruby issue there are alot of work arounds that do not necessarily require a fix of black dmg weapons I am pretty sure.
So for what reason should blizzard do anything else than what they decided to do?
1. All guys with poor weapons want their pieces to be lifted to a higher quality level for free (yes we all like freebies, I like free beer) [the freebie guy, quite simple, didnt think about topic at all, just raises his voice cause there can be smth for free, unpolitical, does not go to elections oftenly because 1 vote makes no difference]
2. This whole story seems generally so wrong (which it is not in fact). Why are some weapons stronger than others? It can't be happening!! All must be same no matter what! Only bad people do wrong things. Wrong things must be fixed asap or you are bad people blizzard! I bet that over 70% (prolly 90%) of people who write here can and do not understand all aspects and possible outcomes of a decision in this scenario and furthermore the mechanics and effects of the bug onto the weapon dmg calculation and the impact on d3 economy of this issue at all. [the fairness guy, votes for left wing parties in politics, anti-capitalist, sometimes denies eating meat, tries to be pc in daily life]
no offense - just as simple as it is
;-)
p.s: the idea of adding any special abilities to elemantal dmg weapons is a good one
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when i read that blue post this morning i happily jumped into the ah and bought 3 very underpriced 1100dpsrs with cd + socket
hopefully ill be able to get a nice bite off them in the following days :D
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I love how they've known about the bug since July but haven't made any decisions or really any discussions since. They should just make it a feature if they are on the fence since keeping it the way it is hides information from the casual player. Putting in a nerf would make people unhappy and rightly so. Maybe they are just waiting on how to implement the feature in a special way rather than just stating how it works?
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On January 21 2013 12:18 Burrfoot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 09:35 Diminisherqc wrote:
Hum out of topic ... but .. are you the same burrfoot that played wow a gnome warrior on earthen ring ? You know, I've been asked that more than once while I was playing WoW, and my answer is always: YES! Last time I played was during the 10-day free MoP trial (unimpressed). My epic fail warrior:
ahaha nice ! ... i pvped with you for a while on er think you switched server over guild drama.. lol i was diminisher i dwarf warrior good old times.... played like 1 month of cata and got bored...anyway world a small vilalge fun to catch you somewhere else hehe
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Confirmed the "black damage" bug will be fixed in all weapons that drop after Patch 2.0: Blue Post
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mqe4mqBl.png)
Better late than never!
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The more I read about the new expansion, the more I realise that my sorc is powerful due to what is believed to be glitches and design flaws. Such as
- my archon build (archon not supposed to be permanent according to their philosophy)
- my cm/ww build (lulz permafreeze)
- the black weapon + elemantal damage I base my archon dps on
- the high stacked ias i base my cm/ww gear on
- the method I used to get all the gear (AH).
It will indeed be an entirely new game for my sorc when all that is "fixed".
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On October 04 2013 16:25 Cascade wrote:
The more I read about the new expansion, the more I realise that my sorc is powerful due to what is believed to be glitches and design flaws. Such as
- my archon build (archon not supposed to be permanent according to their philosophy)
- my cm/ww build (lulz permafreeze)
- the black weapon + elemantal damage I base my archon dps on
- the high stacked ias i base my cm/ww gear on
- the method I used to get all the gear (AH).
It will indeed be an entirely new game for my sorc when all that is "fixed".
yup. wizard is at its core a very gimped class, not much better than dh. the only things that separate wiz from dh are 1.) cm and 2.) archon.
same goes for barbs, which would actually be a horrible class if it were not for two overpowered skill synergies: perma sprint and perma wotb.
dh is equivalently flawed, but lacks the overpowered skills to make up for that.
imho monk and wd are the only classes that are well-designed.
lets hope that d3's shortcomings in terms of itemization and class design wont end up killing the game in the long run... (similarly to how sc2's fundamental flaws now, after 3 years of success and hype, are starting to materialize and kill off the scene.)
this bug fix might be a step in the right direction.
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Who cares? No one will want iLvL 63 weapons anyway after the expansion hits.
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Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
On October 04 2013 20:02 zf wrote:
Who cares? No one will want iLvL 63 weapons anyway after the expansion hits.
Who cares? Dude, most of the players were using this 'bug', if you think it's insiginificant, then you're most likely clueless about the game, ignorant or just stupid.
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On October 04 2013 22:29 HornyHerring wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 20:02 zf wrote:
Who cares? No one will want iLvL 63 weapons anyway after the expansion hits. Who cares? Dude, most of the players were using this 'bug', if you think it's insiginificant, then you're most likely clueless about the game, ignorant or just stupid.
Well, maybe he could have stated it more sensitively, but his point shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Given Loot 2.0, our current weapons will likely take us from 60 to 70 and then we'll want to upgrade. Sure, we are all speculating now, but "you're most likely clueless about the game" if you blindly assume our current weapons can compete with the as-yet-revealed options.
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Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
Yes I assume that, since this prefix wont work as it once did, itemization will be different. Non-elemental weapons will no longer be priority and will not provide the bonus they once did. It's a nerf and it changed the way people are going to equip their characters and applies to every weapon after the patch, even the newly dropped ones. So yea it matters.
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On October 04 2013 22:29 HornyHerring wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 20:02 zf wrote:
Who cares? No one will want iLvL 63 weapons anyway after the expansion hits. Who cares? Dude, most of the players were using this 'bug', if you think it's insiginificant, then you're most likely clueless about the game, ignorant or just stupid.
I hope you are aware that they do not plan to release Loot 2.0 before the expansion.
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On October 05 2013 01:14 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 22:29 HornyHerring wrote:On October 04 2013 20:02 zf wrote:
Who cares? No one will want iLvL 63 weapons anyway after the expansion hits. Who cares? Dude, most of the players were using this 'bug', if you think it's insiginificant, then you're most likely clueless about the game, ignorant or just stupid. I hope you are aware that they do not plan to release Loot 2.0 before the expansion.
Actually they do. Patch 2.0 will come out before the expansion and include loot 2.0, paragon 2.0, etc. my guess is the exact day the AHs shutdown, and the expansion releases a few weeks afterwards.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9679139107?page=1#19
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On October 05 2013 01:03 HornyHerring wrote:
Yes I assume that, since this prefix wont work as it once did, itemization will be different. Non-elemental weapons will no longer be priority and will not provide the bonus they once did. It's a nerf and it changed the way people are going to equip their characters and applies to every weapon after the patch, even the newly dropped ones. So yea it matters.
Yes, itemization will be different, but was always going to be different given the changes in max level, changes in skills, changes in legendaries, changes in affixes (e.g., X% damage to element), addition of elemental damage effects, etc. I took it for granted that the current best weapons wouldn't be the best possible weapons post-patch/expansion.
On October 05 2013 01:57 Burrfoot wrote:Actually they do. Patch 2.0 will come out before the expansion and include loot 2.0, paragon 2.0, etc. my guess is the exact day the AHs shutdown, and the expansion releases a few weeks afterwards. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9679139107?page=1#19
C'mon, this is Blizzard. There's no way they'll be able to hit any sort of deadline. ;-p
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On October 05 2013 01:57 Burrfoot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 01:14 willoc wrote:On October 04 2013 22:29 HornyHerring wrote:On October 04 2013 20:02 zf wrote:
Who cares? No one will want iLvL 63 weapons anyway after the expansion hits. Who cares? Dude, most of the players were using this 'bug', if you think it's insiginificant, then you're most likely clueless about the game, ignorant or just stupid. I hope you are aware that they do not plan to release Loot 2.0 before the expansion. Actually they do. Patch 2.0 will come out before the expansion and include loot 2.0, paragon 2.0, etc. my guess is the exact day the AHs shutdown, and the expansion releases a few weeks afterwards. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9679139107?page=1#19
Good catch. Sounds like they have some mis-communication going on. I don't understand why they would fix this bug without requiring everyone to get new equipment (expansion).
If they plan to release this 1-3 weeks before the expansion, then that's basically the same as an expansion preparation patch to me (Just like the expansion preparation patches for WoW). If these facts are, indeed, true, then it shouldn't really matter (in my mind, the preparation patches are part of the expansion).
*All details subject to change*
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Pre expansion prep patches are a staple in blizzard games, if not all games that have expansions. I'd expect all the core changes to drop as described, few weeks before expansion to allow for the current playerbase to adjust and get a bit of a head start with how these changes affect the current game before expansion hits to help players better acclimate
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