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I always assumed the hardest difficulty transition would be hands down going from Hell -> to Inferno (I still do actually) However I was surprised to see the actual numbers, take a look...
![[image loading]](http://media.diablofans.com/images/news/2012/may/guide/IMG_0101.jpg)
So according to the Brady Games D3 strategy guide this accursed monster will hit for 50dmg at norm, and hit for 542 dmg at NM. That is a 1,084% dmg increase.
In Hell diff he will hit for 3075 dmg, and in Inferno he will hit for 26K. Which is about a 846% dmg increase.
As far as HP goes in norm it will have an avg of 98.5 HP, in NM it will have and avg of 1400 HP. This is about a 1,421% HP increase.
In Hell he has and avg of 8,240 HP, in inferno an avg of 42,000 HP. Which is about a 510% HP increase...
So as you can see both the dmg/HP increases are actually more "drastic" going from norm to NM than going from Hell to Inferno.
I found this to be true with other mobs as well (based on the few samples I have from Brady Games). The difference between going from norm to nightmare is bigger based on percentages than going from Hell to Inferno. Check the numbers from some other monsters...
http://media.diablofans.com/images/news/2012/may/guide/IMG_0102.jpg
http://media.diablofans.com/images/news/2012/may/guide/IMG_0103.jpg
http://media.diablofans.com/images/news/2012/may/guide/IMG_0104.jpg
http://media.diablofans.com/images/news/2012/may/guide/IMG_0110.jpg
With all that said I still think going from Hell to Inferno will still actually "feel" the hardest to me because even though the increased dmg/hp %s might not be as high, the way numbers scale with a higher base value makes a bigger impact. (not to mention blizzard already said there will be added monster abilities and more aggressive AI that will also add to the difficulty of inferno, not something you can really measure with simple numbers)
I think NM is going to be harder than I originally thought though, but Inferno will still likely be the hardest transition.
So how much harder do you think it will be going from Hell to Inferno, compared to other difficulty transitions?
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Why are you looking at normal to nightmare? You're comparing mobs that are 20-25 levels higher from when you meet, with infinitely better stats/abilities/gear. Compared to hell->nightmare, where you are the EXACT SAME LEVEL but armadons just went from hitting for 14k to 170k.
If something hits for 1 damage in normal and 100 damage in nighmare, you're not going to exclaim how it's a 10,000% increase.
The way I see it - nightmare is designed to tell you that normal was basically a joke, and that you haven't seen nothin' yet.
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Your right, I agree with you. I just though it would be interesting to post these numbers so people who might not have seen them can take a look and I really do think NM is going to be alot harder than people might have been thinking.
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I do think Normal to Nightmare will be a wake up call. I still think it wont be to hard due to the gear we have at 20 to the gear we have at 41...If you look at the Level from Hell to Inferno, 56 to 62 which isn't much jump of levels so gear won't jump up as much either. That is going to get really though.
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If I remember right, they were estimating that you clear normal ~30, nightmare ~50, and hit 60 about halfway through hell. Just as a frame of reference.
In the beta you can strap a helmet on your head while drooling on your keyboard. I'm guessing by nightmare you have to really think about your skill and gear selection, and by hell things are getting pretty tricky. Trying inferno without some serious hell grinds is probably suicide.
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Inferno will not only require supremely epic gear, you'll also need a team of players with skills that greatly compliment each other.
Either everyone has a mix or every player has a dedicated job. Like, a barbarian to tank damage, a wizard to go all out damage and a witch doctor for all out crowd control.
And you'll also need really good team work and some innovative tactics. No more jumping in the fray.
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The level of progression in difficulty from Normal to Hell scales with your level. From Normal to Nightmare you are constantly leveling up. From Hell to Inferno there will be no level progression to help you. Only gear will help you survive in Inferno and obviously lots of skill. Hell to Inferno will definitely be the hardest.
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I believe the jumps were something along this ballpark. Normal to Nightmare to Hell would all be like 2-4x monster strength, while the jump from Hell to Inferno was 10x(probably more in some circumstances) not to mention these "enrage timers" Bashiok has been hinting.
I think the most important component of this "extreme" difficulty, lies in with the fact that Diablo III is not going to be an 8 player game, only 4. To bridge the gap between the +4 levels of difficulty, and +4 entertainment of people something else needs to be there to make the game addicting.
Inferno should most definitely be the hardest hardest, in my eyes the biggest key here will be the strength of the drops. How powerful will Hell ACT5 drops be VS Inferno ACT1 drops? My expectation is people will be stuck grinding Hell Difficulty for the best drops, before moving onto Inferno, not people quickly rushing to Inferno ACT1 to get "ultra drops" and then progressing easily through it. Realistically, I want THE GRIND to exist from any difficulty jumps (even if its a relatively short grind).
Another factor of course is how many people are you playing with? Bashiok dropped that "UP TO Nightmare HALFWAY is soloable, from there additional players are required" was the source. Perhaps a full pre-made jumping from Hell to Inferno could accomplish a little bit. Only time will tell in the end, we don't even know how much HP a level 60(max level) will have, so to try to make sense of these number statistics is pretty futile at this point.
TL;DR : Norm - Hell difficulty is incremental to roughly 2-4x in strength, while the Hell to Inferno jump is 10x to in difficulty, therefore I expect Inferno to be the premiere mode. I'm still hoping we will need to grind from normal to nightmare, and so forth for the sake of personal accomplishment. Other factors include ammount of people you're playing with, strength of the drops(from Hell Act5 VS Inferno Act1), and just flat out statistics from a level 60 character that we don't know yet.
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26k min dmg on inferno O_o
nice :D
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Holy fucking BALLS! That is... Just awesome
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There are some character tools out there to give you an idea of what the ideally equipped character looks like The one thing I realized is that the jump from level 60 drops hell to the 61 and 62 drops in inferno is STAGGERING. In WoW terms, it's practically the difference between the first set of epics in an expansion compared to the last.
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omg, I can't wait to die with my HC chars :D
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Normal to NM was tough in D2 for untwinked chars as well, but if you've got the gear and a good build I reccon hell->inferno will be a lot tougher transition
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You are going to get the most levels in Normal... so I think that makes up for the % difference
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Comparing a single monster is really a poor way of judging the transition.
How about comparing a D2 Normal Quill Rat with a Nightmare Quill Rat? That's a bazillion percent increase in stats. On the other hand, if you compare a Act 5 Normal monster to an Act 1 Nightmare monster you will notice that the monster stats aren't actually much higher, and in many cases are actually weaker with the difficulty coming from lower resists, drain resists, etc.
My guess for the most difficult will be Hell to Inferno because unlike the others there is no reliable method of increasing power (leveling) and players must instead rely on their own skill / party skill.
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Most difficult will be from normal to nightmare. I say this, not from my perspective but rather from a broad scope. For most of us here, discussing diablo 3 in a primarily starcraft website, the difficulty will be going from hell to inferno.
For the millions of others who don't really have an idea what they are getting themselves into, normal is going to be a carnival of weird builds, mediocre gear and less than optimal control. That jump to nightmare where the first monster they run into has the potential to kill them and their abilities aren't doing that much damage. It is going to raise the stakes. Most of those people would be more likely to start a new character than grind out and fix their character. I expect to see a lot of complaining on the official Diablo 3 forums claiming that a class is underpowered "I just reached NM, wtf?"
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On May 12 2012 04:21 TheRealDudeMan wrote:
Most difficult will be from normal to nightmare. I say this, not from my perspective but rather from a broad scope. For most of us here, discussing diablo 3 in a primarily starcraft website, the difficulty will be going from hell to inferno.
For the millions of others who don't really have an idea what they are getting themselves into, normal is going to be a carnival of weird builds, mediocre gear and less than optimal control. That jump to nightmare where the first monster they run into has the potential to kill them and their abilities aren't doing that much damage. It is going to raise the stakes. Most of those people would be more likely to start a new character than grind out and fix their character. I expect to see a lot of complaining on the official Diablo 3 forums claiming that a class is underpowered "I just reached NM, wtf?"
Well, since you can switch your skills at any moment during the game, there won't be much switching, only grinding more gear.
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On May 12 2012 04:21 TheRealDudeMan wrote:
Most difficult will be from normal to nightmare. I say this, not from my perspective but rather from a broad scope. For most of us here, discussing diablo 3 in a primarily starcraft website, the difficulty will be going from hell to inferno.
For the millions of others who don't really have an idea what they are getting themselves into, normal is going to be a carnival of weird builds, mediocre gear and less than optimal control. That jump to nightmare where the first monster they run into has the potential to kill them and their abilities aren't doing that much damage. It is going to raise the stakes. Most of those people would be more likely to start a new character than grind out and fix their character. I expect to see a lot of complaining on the official Diablo 3 forums claiming that a class is underpowered "I just reached NM, wtf?"
Well, that was the case in Diablo 2 on release, when you couldn't respec or allocate stat points. So a lot of players with terrible builds (how would they know better??) faced their first lightning enchanted mob in nightmare and die, over and over, and quit the game, because their only real option was to make a new character.
Which is probably 90% of the reason why Blizz decided to do away with both skill trees and stat allocations. Most people are drawn to diablo b/c it's mindless hack and slash, and it really sucks when you commit to a character only to find that he's permanently flawed.
But yeah I agree normal->nightmare will be a pretty big jump for those who have not played diablo games before.
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On May 12 2012 04:28 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:21 TheRealDudeMan wrote:
Most difficult will be from normal to nightmare. I say this, not from my perspective but rather from a broad scope. For most of us here, discussing diablo 3 in a primarily starcraft website, the difficulty will be going from hell to inferno.
For the millions of others who don't really have an idea what they are getting themselves into, normal is going to be a carnival of weird builds, mediocre gear and less than optimal control. That jump to nightmare where the first monster they run into has the potential to kill them and their abilities aren't doing that much damage. It is going to raise the stakes. Most of those people would be more likely to start a new character than grind out and fix their character. I expect to see a lot of complaining on the official Diablo 3 forums claiming that a class is underpowered "I just reached NM, wtf?" Well, since you can switch your skills at any moment during the game, there won't be much switching, only grinding more gear.
You can only switch skills in town I thought? It still stands that skills rely on your weapons. I'm sure you could get through normal with merchant bought weapons.
I'm just thinking that people with better control and a group focused build with decent gear can further themselves faster than people who pick all the "cool" abilities, have poor control and good gear. I have no doubt in my mind that there is going to be a wall of skill level for everyone and that is going to be overcome with either ridiculously better gear or just better control i.e. dodging projectiles, kiting to regain health, using spells at opportune times and focus firing.
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Wait a second... we're going to be seeing Stygian Doll clones in Diablo III?!
Fuck! >_<
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On May 12 2012 05:57 TheRealDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:28 maartendq wrote:On May 12 2012 04:21 TheRealDudeMan wrote:
Most difficult will be from normal to nightmare. I say this, not from my perspective but rather from a broad scope. For most of us here, discussing diablo 3 in a primarily starcraft website, the difficulty will be going from hell to inferno.
For the millions of others who don't really have an idea what they are getting themselves into, normal is going to be a carnival of weird builds, mediocre gear and less than optimal control. That jump to nightmare where the first monster they run into has the potential to kill them and their abilities aren't doing that much damage. It is going to raise the stakes. Most of those people would be more likely to start a new character than grind out and fix their character. I expect to see a lot of complaining on the official Diablo 3 forums claiming that a class is underpowered "I just reached NM, wtf?" Well, since you can switch your skills at any moment during the game, there won't be much switching, only grinding more gear. You can only switch skills in town I thought? It still stands that skills rely on your weapons. I'm sure you could get through normal with merchant bought weapons. I'm just thinking that people with better control and a group focused build with decent gear can further themselves faster than people who pick all the "cool" abilities, have poor control and good gear. I have no doubt in my mind that there is going to be a wall of skill level for everyone and that is going to be overcome with either ridiculously better gear or just better control i.e. dodging projectiles, kiting to regain health, using spells at opportune times and focus firing.
No, they changed that. Skills can be switched anywhere.
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The transition from Hell to Inferno will be a lot more difficulty than any of the other difficulty changes. It is only logical for Blizzard to implement it this way. If the jump from Normal to Nightmare was insane then they would lose almost all of their player base. Also once you reach Inferno you will be max level. Only gear will improve you (and probably not drastically) at that point so a jump of 800%+ health and vastly increased damage will be quite difficult to overcome. From Normal to Nightmare your character will be dramatically stronger so the monsters also need to be dramatically stronger to compensate for it. Numbers aren't the whole picture to the problem and focusing just on the numbers is a bad way to evaluate difficulty transitions.
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On May 12 2012 06:27 Imperfect1987 wrote:
The transition from Hell to Inferno will be a lot more difficulty than any of the other difficulty changes. It is only logical for Blizzard to implement it this way. If the jump from Normal to Nightmare was insane then they would lose almost all of their player base. Also once you reach Inferno you will be max level. Only gear will improve you (and probably not drastically) at that point so a jump of 800%+ health and vastly increased damage will be quite difficult to overcome. From Normal to Nightmare your character will be dramatically stronger so the monsters also need to be dramatically stronger to compensate for it. Numbers aren't the whole picture to the problem and focusing just on the numbers is a bad way to evaluate difficulty transitions.
I completely agree with you.
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You level the most in normal to nightmare, by a large margin.
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You are looking only to the damage dealt. You can't forget about the afixes and abilities that the creatures/enemies will get towards higher levels...
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Keep in mind that YOUR level will jump the most from normal -> nightmare, and least from Hell -> Inferno.
On May 12 2012 07:09 Gescom wrote:
You level the most in normal to nightmare, by a large margin.
damn ninjas.
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I remember nightmare d2 being actually easier than normal because of access to skills etc. Normal Duriel and Diablo was a major pain in the ass.
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I think you shouldn't view it as normal - nightmare - hell - inferno but rather as tutorial - normal - medium - hard
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Yeah dude this post is super deceptive, I think it should be closed tbh.
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On May 12 2012 08:56 B.I.G. wrote:
I think you shouldn't view it as normal - nightmare - hell - inferno but rather as tutorial - normal - medium - hard
Super funny but yes mostly true.
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On May 12 2012 09:03 Chriscras wrote:
Yeah dude this post is super deceptive, I think it should be closed tbh.
Do you watch Bill O'Reilly and think that his show should be cancelled? No, you formulate your own opinions and thoughts.
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Correct me if i'm wrong... but didn't they say something about doubling difficulty on release? I'm pretty sure nightmare is still gonna be easy and better to enjoy beauty of the game. But i guess they were only talking about inferno?
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On May 12 2012 09:45 kennyf wrote:
Correct me if i'm wrong... but didn't they say something about doubling difficulty on release? I'm pretty sure nightmare is still gonna be easy and better to enjoy beauty of the game. But i guess they were only talking about inferno?
they talked about internal players saying that Inferno had a nice level of difficulty then Blizzard double the difficulty of what their internal testers felt comfortable with
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Character power will scale faster at lower levels. That's why the increase is bigger from norm to nm. As far as actual difficulty, during hell and inferno your character power will only increase as your gear increases, so the difficulty increase will be much more apparent even though the percentage is lower.
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There is still a better way to look at this anyway. Pick one starting point.
Damage
Normal = factor of 1 (100%)
Nightmare = factor of 11 (1100%)
Hell = factor of 62 (6200%)
Inferno = factor of 520 (52000%)
As you can see, the difficulty is exponential.
HP is the same way (normal mobs)
Normal = factor of 1 (100%)
Nightmare = factor of 14 (1400%)
Hell = factor of 84 (8400%)
Inferno = factor of 427 (42700%)
In the end, Normal - nightmare should flow together fairly easily. Hell and obviously inferno will probably the only times you will get cockblocked.
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How much health with most characters have by max level? Is inferno only reached after you make max level in hell? Will I at least be able to do pre-inferno by myself?
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You're gonna be max lvl before you finish Hell anyways. Char health is pure speculations, but it could be 50k+ in inferno.
And I don't know what you mean by yourself, because it's probably gonna be easier solo with how the dmg scales in hell and inferno 
Well atleast for me, less people in my party, less chances to screw up!
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Well, just think about 1 vit = 10 hp, and getting ~3000 in a stat off just equips shouldn't be too outlandish by inferno (not even counting gemming) and that's 30k hp. So I'd say this would be a minimum for better players after a few weeks.
I was just curious if anyone knew for sure if it wouldn' be possible to get the "+str" affix and the "+str and vit" affix on the same piece of equipment. Or how affixes relating to stats work together. (like only 1 stat affix on an item or something)
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On May 12 2012 12:49 Ryler wrote:You're gonna be max lvl before you finish Hell anyways. Char health is pure speculations, but it could be 50k+ in inferno. And I don't know what you mean by yourself, because it's probably gonna be easier solo with how the dmg scales in hell and inferno Well atleast for me, less people in my party, less chances to screw up!
Monster damage does not scale with number of players, only health does. Your chance to die due to individual hits is the same, only if your party is not outputting enough DPS should you feel a problem. Properly played parties provide two major advantages: skill/class synergies and effectively weaker monsters.
1 player = 100% HP, 2 players =175% HP, 3 players = 250% HP, 4 players = 325% HP. With everyone pulling their weight in DPS, more players is easier, and tanking is just as hard as it was for singleplayer.
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You're not looking at this correctly.
Norm = lvl 1-30
NM = lvl 31-50
Hell = lvl 51-60
Inferno = 60 only
Of course there's going to be a huge difference percentage-wise between norm and NM since you're own level difference is about 3000%, whereas between the final two difficulties there's none at all.
In other words, Hell => Inferno is by far the biggest transition.
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On May 12 2012 15:37 Condor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 12:49 Ryler wrote:You're gonna be max lvl before you finish Hell anyways. Char health is pure speculations, but it could be 50k+ in inferno. And I don't know what you mean by yourself, because it's probably gonna be easier solo with how the dmg scales in hell and inferno Well atleast for me, less people in my party, less chances to screw up! Monster damage does not scale with number of players, only health does. Your chance to die due to individual hits is the same, only if your party is not outputting enough DPS should you feel a problem. Properly played parties provide two major advantages: skill/class synergies and effectively weaker monsters. 1 player = 100% HP, 2 players =175% HP, 3 players = 250% HP, 4 players = 325% HP. With everyone pulling their weight in DPS, more players is easier, and tanking is just as hard as it was for singleplayer.
Wrong. Damage does scale according to the official Brady Games guide.
+110% health and +15% damage per player in Inferno.
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In D2 the gap from normal to nightmare was big but going from nightmare to hell was huge. It will prolly be similar in D3.
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As long as it is engaging the entire half hour it takes to whittle down that HP, it's okay =P
Endurance fights can get boring.
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EPT
