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On August 11 2012 20:08 wintergt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 09:55 Sylvr wrote:
Well, the problem I was trying to solve was those times when you can't kite while using an Attack Speed build, as that is the main downfall of it IMO. It would most likely be Ball Lightning rather than Loaded for Bear.
Here's what I'm thinking:
Devouring or Gas Grenades for Hatred generator
Ball Lightning
Shuriken Cloud
Bats or Marked for Death, or anything really.
Jagged Spikes
Gloom
It feels like this should cover you for just about any situation. Can't kite? Cloud, Caltrops, Grenades and Gloom if you really need to. Kiting just fine? Caltrops and spam those Balls! It might even make kiting a little easier since you can just pop a cloud and not have to worry as much about running through a few trash mobs. Is this a hybrid build? Because in a typical DH tank build you don't want to kite, at most dance around arcanes and chase down elite ranged mobs. You need to be in their face all the time to proc LOH. So not familiar with how this would play, but I still think you should fit in preparation somewhere. Discipline is king.
It's not really meant as a tank build, but rather an Attack Speed build in which you aren't completely screwed vs mobs that don't allow you to kite (Fast, Wall, Teleport/Phasebeast, etc). You would still focus your build on damage, and you would still kite whenever you can, but whereas a burst build would just go into unload-on-your-face mode when cornered, this build would go into LOH mode.
If we assume that the actual straight up stand-still damage between an Attack Speed build and a Burst build are roughly the same, then we have to address the actual weaknesses that make one pull ahead of the other. I figured that the discussion on the matter that we've been having concluded that the main weakness of AtkSpd build was that you HAVE to kite full time, but doing so costs you too much damage. I was aiming to take the necessity of kiting out of the build with as few stat changes as possible. LOH seems a reasonable venue so long as you can find the skills to make it work. Since even your standard burst build runs 3-4 X Utility/Defensive skills, I figured I could try replacing your standard survival/kiting aids with things to boost your LOH efficiency (Focus all of your utility into one area). The above is what I was thinking of so far, though I currently lack the funds to test it.
I'm not sure how much you'd need Prep for the build. Caltrops is cheap, and Gloom is for emergencies only. Anything else, you just LOH through (though I suppose you'll need a FEW defensive stats just to ensure you don't get one-shotted... LOH doesn't help against that)
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
does that build kill fast or carry a lot of mf?
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On August 12 2012 02:46 EntertainMe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 20:39 Toadily wrote:
I can't believe how many people still think this way before trying it for themselves or are just unfamiliar with how much damage is actually being dealt. I was a bow person and would never dream of going to a slow and clunky xbow when I tested both out when I was leveling. But after finally getting a 2h xbow I was literally blown away at how much damage I was dishing out AND kiting more efficient than before. Also helped with the carpal tunnel that I was probably about to get since my wrist actually started having this burning feeling.
Faster attack speed does indeed make kiting a little bit easier since there's still the attack point(frontswing) that cannot/do not want to cancel, but no human reaction can realistically make it so you cancel the backswing animation and then move and then attack right when you can start the attack animation again. When I was using a bow, i was easily over 2 atkps, so in a single second you have to time & click when your frontswing is done, move, when your backswing is done, move. You are ALWAYS gonna lose attacking time and therefore damage because of this, unless you're a robot and can click 4x a second all in different parts of the screen and time them all perfectly and accounting for latency.
So in order for you to do the SAME damage as a 2h xbow, you actually have to stay and shoot MORE than you'd as if you were using a 2h xbow simply because you only need to shoot and move once every 1.1 second instead of every .5 sec or more.
And as for crit on bows, you'll find a much better upgrade just looking for raw damage as opposed to having crit damage on it. People are way too crazy over crit damage and they've been overpriced to what they actually should be even if you had amazing crit/critdmg. I had 49% crit and 300 crit dmg and even at that point I still got more damage from raw damage than crit damage at the same price range.
e: even forgot to mention how terrible bow/handxbow's hatred efficiency is, I would never go back even if I had a perfectly rolled bow What do you mean that you have to shoot "MORE"? If you mean you have to shoot "more arrows", than yes, but your attack speed allows you to shoot more within same time period. If you mean you have to shoot for "longer period of time", than this "Damage PER SECOND" formula should not be called "per second" anymore, since you've just proven that you cannot damage as much within SAME time period. Ultimately like we concluded before, it comes to your playstyle. I do not think either style is superior over another. But my understanding is: Xbow if you are MF'er Bows if you are PvP'er There's just no way in hell I'm going to stand around for that long second just to get off one shot in pvp, and especially vs a human player who's constantly moving around.
That's the thing, you're actually on the move more therefore giving you more mobility unless you want to sacrifice a lot of damage using bows. Why? Let's say for example your attacks takes .9 seconds to complete, and .3 second of that is the frontswing, then you have a whole .6 second to move. Let's say your bow takes .45 seconds to complete, .15 of that the frontswing and .3 is the backswing which you can cancel to move. There's just a way smaller margin of error to make sure that you're not losing dps time, in fact it's so small that no humans can realistically do it.
As for PVP, I think it all comes down to more good the cc on hit procs are vs burst damage. At this point we have no information to go on as to whether which is better for PvP.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
if it's 1 on 1 pvp i don't see how they can deal with the 400k crits people can put out. it'll have to be a group sort of thing where the huge dps numbers people can get doesn't dominate the encounter as much.
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On August 12 2012 13:06 oneofthem wrote:
if it's 1 on 1 pvp i don't see how they can deal with the 400k crits people can put out. it'll have to be a group sort of thing where the huge dps numbers people can get doesn't dominate the encounter as much.
Well I suppose resists might mitigate the damage, but I also feel like some sort of general damage reduction in pvp would have to take effect. There's people on that diablo progress site with 1m dps @_@
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On August 12 2012 13:12 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 13:06 oneofthem wrote:
if it's 1 on 1 pvp i don't see how they can deal with the 400k crits people can put out. it'll have to be a group sort of thing where the huge dps numbers people can get doesn't dominate the encounter as much. Well I suppose resists might mitigate the damage, but I also feel like some sort of general damage reduction in pvp would have to take effect. There's people on that diablo progress site with 1m dps @_@
Resists would be easier to get and "stronger" for only barbs, monks and wizards. For DH and WD (more for DH) to achieve a decently comparable level of dmg reduction they would lose too much dps unless they had top tier gear. Or it could just devolve into cheesy LoH/life regen stacking garbage with again, only the guys at the very top being also able to dish it out. This is bad unless they do something like what Athene and I presume others said with a gear effectiveness reduction, but even then the guys at the top would just wreck everyone else because of the huge gap between them and even "well" geared people. Nothing against them and kudos for getting all those goodies through whatever means, but something's gonna have to be done about how ridiculously powerful they've become if this game wants decent PvP or even a better PvE.
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Blizzard has stated that PVP would have Elo system in place, so rest assured the guys with ridiculous gear will end up fighting other guys with ridiculous gear instead of you.
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On August 12 2012 21:36 Novalisk wrote:
Blizzard has stated that PVP would have Elo system in place, so rest assured the guys with ridiculous gear will end up fighting other guys with ridiculous gear instead of you. Aw I know how this is gonna turn out, if you play well you have to play against people completely outgearing you. It's like WoW arena all over again, getting two shot by fully pvp geared people only because you know how to use your abilities properly. Not that I know of any way to get around that though.
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On August 12 2012 21:36 Novalisk wrote:
Blizzard has stated that PVP would have Elo system in place, so rest assured the guys with ridiculous gear will end up fighting other guys with ridiculous gear instead of you.
PvP elo is going to be completely gear based? This is going to end well...
Its going to be a fine balance for DH in PvP, you're the most fragile and if resists have their full effect, even with a bunch of crit and crit dmg you might as well be pinging some of these barbs and wizards.
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On August 13 2012 03:07 Ig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 21:36 Novalisk wrote:
Blizzard has stated that PVP would have Elo system in place, so rest assured the guys with ridiculous gear will end up fighting other guys with ridiculous gear instead of you. PvP elo is going to be completely gear based? This is going to end well...
I didn't say Elo will be gear based, just that there's an Elo system in place. So if you win a lot, you'll face tougher dudes. Winning depends on both skill and gear, we won't really know how skill-based it'll be until PvP comes out.
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One look at the difference between low, mid and top end gear should be enough to tell you that winning will be all gear.
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New to this thread, I'm starting a DH alt and was wondering what the current opinion is on 4pc Nat Set (budget version) nothing spectacularly rolled? Deciding if it is worth investing into since 1.04 is coming out soon. Don't really plan to do any massive farming or pvp or anything, just playing D3 and wanting to play all the classes semi-well and be able to beat inferno.
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your 4 pieces of natalya set will allow you to be practically invincible - 3 disc per sec. most dh players know this though so a budget set might not be very budget at all and you might end up rolling a tank dh with no dups!
just my 2 pence
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Main obstacle to 4p nat being an actual "budget" set is the ring. Lowest I've seen in my casual browsing has been around 30 mil, but there are probably cheaper ones that pop up. If you can get a set cheap though the 4p bonus is pretty darn imba, but with a high ring price you could easily get more dps from a set of rares with some shopping around.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
oh god dh is going to suck in pvp. buff us now!!!! i'm preemptively complaining right now so i can say i told you so in the most hipster ariel way possible.
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I guess I should figure out how DW 2 1h bows work for DH vs Monk/Barb, but I assume using the cheap 400dps Nat weapon in the offhand is a terrible terrible substitution? And the cold damage on it only affect every other attack special or otherwise?
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On August 13 2012 03:07 Ig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 21:36 Novalisk wrote:
Blizzard has stated that PVP would have Elo system in place, so rest assured the guys with ridiculous gear will end up fighting other guys with ridiculous gear instead of you. PvP elo is going to be completely gear based? This is going to end well... Its going to be a fine balance for DH in PvP, you're the most fragile and if resists have their full effect, even with a bunch of crit and crit dmg you might as well be pinging some of these barbs and wizards.
Haha you'd prolly never seen a tank DH lol. I don't think DH will be too terrible, with gloom/SS and about 4-500 AR/35k HP we're not really fragile.
//btw just checked Athene's gears, he currently upgrade to full Natalya set/ about 300 AR and 80K HP !!!
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Athene-1780/hero/5181904
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On August 13 2012 10:39 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 03:07 Ig wrote:On August 12 2012 21:36 Novalisk wrote:
Blizzard has stated that PVP would have Elo system in place, so rest assured the guys with ridiculous gear will end up fighting other guys with ridiculous gear instead of you. PvP elo is going to be completely gear based? This is going to end well... Its going to be a fine balance for DH in PvP, you're the most fragile and if resists have their full effect, even with a bunch of crit and crit dmg you might as well be pinging some of these barbs and wizards. Haha you'd prolly never seen a tank DH lol. I don't think DH will be too terrible, with gloom/SS and about 4-500 AR/35k HP we're not really fragile. //btw just checked Athene's gears, he currently upgrade to full Natalya set/ about 300 AR and 80K HP !!! http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Athene-1780/hero/5181904
Tank DHs have way low dps when compared to "standard" ones, especially for single target and burst, which is all PvP will be about. Of course if you have a high budget the difference is much smaller, but that's the whole issue - it shouldn't be pay to win.
Athene's gear with his resist and hp is a testimony to only top or at the very least high geared players being able to "have it all" and dominate others solely based on gear.
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I don't think DH will suck in PVP, I think PVE DH Builds will suck in PVP. If you try to go in with Loaded for Bear and Hungering Arrow with some Glass Cannon, then you're going to get faceraped as all classes have some form of "oh shit" button that will give them time to close in.
DH is going to have to either find a way to keep their range, or survive toe-to-toe when a Barb leaps on your head.
I think Utility spells are going to reign supreme in the long run (The first couple weeks is going to be utter chaos, of course, and flavor-of-the-week builds are going to rise and fall sporadically). I think DH is going to have to create a "dead zone" between them and the opponent where they absolutely cannot pass through and have to walk around, giving the DH more time to DPS them from afar. Gap closers will have to be countered by Vault (or Smokescreen will have to actually stealth you).
Caltrops and Spike Trap, and I actually think Turret with the tether Rune would be good ways to keep them from taking a direct path to you. Just keep that Turret between you and them and it will be a constant deterrent. If you take this approach, then I don't think you'd really need a slow, as the only way they have left to get to you will be a gap closer that ignores Slow anyway.
All the same, you need something to do when they get next to you. Either damage or escape. You'll probably end up choosing between the Fan of Knives: Retaliate style or just good ol' Vault/Evasive Fire.
Just thinking out loud here mostly, as I think PVP Damage is going to be obscenely nerfed, so DH's 3-shotting people isn't going to be an option.
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EPT
