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On August 07 2012 16:30 Ym1r wrote:http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Ym1r-1314/hero/836883I don't know where I should be at, I have trouble in act 2 and can't efficiently farm it, I die way too much. I don't know if I should try to swap in some survivability or not but I've seen glass cannons do act 3 completely fine (with 100k dps though). I figured I could do act 2 w/o any problems at 65k w/o SS but it's a lot harder than I thought. Is the MF worth it to forgo resist/vit? been farming act 1 forever, and it's getting boring, the constant level 50 items dropping is annoying too.
The problem really seems to be that you're a glass cannon. Act 2 likes to throw random garbage at you and you basically only have ss to get through it because gloom is pretty crappy without resists. You should aim to get some more survivability because that will help a lot in Act 3/4 progression as well. You can also try swapping out gloom for caltrops because its so weak for glass cannons.
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I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but I know the higher attack speed of bows lets you kite much faster (ie stutter step with smaller steps in between attacks) than crossbows (I've used both), but will getting items with attack speed % let me kite faster with the latter?
I'm tempted to purchase a bow because I feel I can kite pretty well, but I'm afraid it'll suck for PvP.
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On August 08 2012 13:59 Gandalf wrote:
I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but I know the higher attack speed of bows lets you kite much faster (ie stutter step with smaller steps in between attacks) than crossbows (I've used both), but will getting items with attack speed % let me kite faster with the latter?
I'm tempted to purchase a bow because I feel I can kite pretty well, but I'm afraid it'll suck for PvP.
Yes it will. Attack speed affects both the cooldown between shots and the attack animation. You don't need a bow to get enough attack speed though. With the attack speed from your quiver, and at least 3 items, it should give you enough to kite well.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On August 06 2012 00:23 Baeksucho wrote:
When you stutter step, you don't "refresh" or "cancel" the animation CD.
e.g :
if the animation takes 1 sec, when you fire your first arrow, you will wait 1 sec no matter what you do until firing the 2nd arrow.
it's just that instead of standing still for 1 sec doing nothing, you walk back (stutter step).
With higher attack speed, the animation is a lot faster, it doesn't mean that it's less efficient.
e.g :
if you have 100% more attack speed, the animation takes 0.5 sec instead of 1 sec.
So during 1 sec you will do :
fire > walk for 0.5 sec > fire > walk for 0.5 sec > fire.
instead of
fire > walk for 1 sec > fire.
You walk the same distance during the same time but instead you fire 1 more arrow.
Now if you have a really high attack speed (with a 1hand crossbow for instance), you can lose some effectiveness as you would have to stutter step really fast to utilize it to its full potential, which you can't always do.
e.g:
Let's say the animation is 0.2 sec.
you have to Fire > walk for 0.2 sec > fire > etc etc.
but to stutter step you have to left click behind your char, maintain shift, left click in front of your char etc. which takes a lot more time than 0.2 sec so what you will do is
Fire > walk for ~0.3 sec > Fire > etc.
so you lose some effectiveness
But for 2h crossbow, you will never reach that point
note the word "effectively" and
forget it
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On August 06 2012 00:23 Baeksucho wrote:
Now if you have a really high attack speed (with a 1hand crossbow for instance), you can lose some effectiveness as you would have to stutter step really fast to utilize it to its full potential, which you can't always do.
e.g:
Let's say the animation is 0.2 sec.
you have to Fire > walk for 0.2 sec > fire > etc etc.
but to stutter step you have to left click behind your char, maintain shift, left click in front of your char etc. which takes a lot more time than 0.2 sec so what you will do is
Fire > walk for ~0.3 sec > Fire > etc.
so you lose some effectiveness
But for 2h crossbow, you will never reach that point
the 2h xbow in your example has an attack anim of 0.5, meaning it would be 'safe' to fire twice, ergo no lost time. Given that you can shoot more than once, it's basically impossible to find an example where it's impossible to 'stutter step' 'efficently.' Further, you LITERALLY LOSE DPS with slow weapons when you overkill mobs vs a fast weapon which attacks faster but w/ less dmg per shot
On August 08 2012 15:16 oneofthem wrote:
note the word "effectively" and
forget it
what do you mean by effectively? I mean 'given that the player runs faster than a monster, running away to minimum safe distance y + firing distance c and then firing until mob reaches distance y at which player is no longer safe.' Any increase in c results in a linear increase in potential damage based on the speed of the monster and the player's tooltip dps: c * dps / mobspeed where mobspeed is measured in units / second.Assuming players efficently choose values of c such that c is evenly divisible by their firing rate and that the potential damage is less than or equal to the monster's remaining health, weapon speed has no effect on the effectiveness of kiting. Given that it's easier to do both with a faster weapon, however, it seems safe to conclude that faster weapons generally increase dps while kiting, not the other way around, as you seem to falsely imply.
On August 06 2012 01:26 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 00:23 Baeksucho wrote:
[spoiler]When you stutter step, you don't "refresh" or "cancel" the animation CD.
K let's assume the firing point is at the middle of the animation. So in a perfect world, you always spend half ur time running, and the other half shooting. In this case, xbow n bow comes out evenly. Now it is difficult to time this perfectly (u often will either stop to shoot too early, in which case u waste running time, or stop too late, in which case u waste shooting time aka DPS), however little this margin of error is, it is a bigger percentage when u have higher IAS. Even without this, there almost certainly will be times when you can't fire "whenever possible" and have to run (fast Phase/Ripper, invulnerable Phase/ripper, etc).. as long as this situation happens, xbow comes out on top. Nvm the ease on your body physically, when there are less clicking n more resting is involved. Even if u are good, it is taxing on the body.
I'm very confused about what you're trying to say here. Could you reword this in such a way that I understand why you seem to think that firing twice, back to back, with a weapon twice as fast with half the damage range (so identical dps) is worse than firing once with a weapon with half the speed and twice the damage range with the statement
On August 06 2012 00:23 Baeksucho wrote:
When you stutter step, you don't "refresh" or "cancel" the animation CD.
in mind? You seemed to agree with this statement both implicitly with lack of argument and explicitly when you began your post with a 'k'
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
half a page of assumptions is apparently less difficult to execute than a xbow. k
you can shoot off your puny little devouring arrows while being acrobatic in some sort of maze chase while xbow users blow shit up with 5x your burst dmg.
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On August 08 2012 16:05 oneofthem wrote:
half a page of assumptions is apparently less difficult to execute than a xbow. k
you can shoot off your puny little devouring arrows while being acrobatic in some sort of maze chase while xbow users blow shit up with 5x your burst dmg.
Can you post numbers to support this? I find it difficult to believe that a perfectly rolled xbow vs a perfectly rolled bow would do 5 times as much damage in a single shot with all other stats being equal. While I don't have the numbers handy, my recollection was that crossbows topped out at about 20% more dps than bows and that they're less than 50% slower, amounting to roughly 2x single shot damage, at most. I would have to be wrong on these numbers by a very large amount for xbows to deal 5 times the single shot damage of bows: 100% slower and 100% more dps would only result in 4 times the single shot damage, and I don't believe either number is close to those values in actuality.
Also, while i admit I did not read every single page of this thread, I was directly addressing your posts on the previous several pages where you seemed to claim that xbows did more damage than bows given that the user was kiting. I had assumed based on the content of these posts that our discussion was limited to weapon choice when stutter stepping. I am happy to admit that xbows deal more single shot damage than bows, however, this does not make your previous posts any less wrong, nor is it relevant to the discussion at hand.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it's about build variety and hatred usage mostly. xbow users go for big nukes like 3x cluster arrows, sometimes with full ss. bow users might go for elemental arrow spamming wiht less hatred usage. the difference in burst might not be 5x but it is at least very huge.
about kiting, you cannot expect people to play perfectly up to "multiples of atk cd", and in many kiting situations you are not THAT much faster than the enemy such that you can fire off more than 1 shot per stutter. if you've played dota etc you'd know that stuttering is only useful because it allows the player to run out the atk cd with time spent moving instead of standing around waiting for the next atk. that's what i meant by effectively refreshing atk cd (not animation cd). sure, you get the animation cd for a longer duration with a slower weapon, which means each stuttering takes a bit more time to execute, but the atk cd is a different timer that cna be spent running or standing around waiting for the next atk. the xbow guy just runs the fk away after 1 shot and wait for hatred to regen, while faster weapons require more tedious kiting to make use of the shorter intervals of atk cd.
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can you guys please stop falsely advertising that faster attack speed improves kiting...
the topic was already beaten to death and explained so clearly on the previous page (126), and now we're right back to people saying attack speed improves kiting...
I REALLY encourage you attack-speed enthusiasts to spend 5mil gold on 2 different gearsets:
1. focusing on attack speed gearset (aim for 40k dps)
2. focusing on crit gearset (aim for 40k dps)
I did this in the first month of the game, and you'll find it pretty funny on how badly the crit gearset w/ xbows outperforms the attack speed gearset... there is a reason the best geared DH in this game use 2h xbows
I guess the only thing left to do is ... well, watch people who refuse to listen make the same mistake over and over again... yeah yeah faster attack animation blah blah blah fancy explanations that amount to nothing when it comes to "practical" in-game scenarios
when you say you enjoy playing with 1h xbows because its fun, and you still have 100k dps and roll everything, that's perfectly fine, you should do what's fun for you... BUT please don't mislead players with lower DPS into thinking they'll have an easier time by stacking attack speed gear & using 1h xbows and doing insanely low dmg per bow-hit
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It seems to me that you can kite with either, but you can only burst effectively with XBow, and I would say that Burst builds are fundamentally better than DoT builds anyway. It feels like there are more situations in which I'm prevented from kiting than bursting. (When I say bursting, I mean you just pop SS or Gloom, stand still and unload like your life depends on it (because it does) in order to kill them before they kill you).
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On August 09 2012 03:14 Sylvr wrote:
It seems to me that you can kite with either, but you can only burst effectively with XBow, and I would say that Burst builds are fundamentally better than DoT builds anyway. It feels like there are more situations in which I'm prevented from kiting than bursting. (When I say bursting, I mean you just pop SS or Gloom, stand still and unload like your life depends on it (because it does) in order to kill them before they kill you).
It all depends on gear really. With the way the game works it definitely favors burst, but only if you actually have enough burst to down mobs/packs quickly enough (high crit and crit dmg) that the weapon burst difference is significant. I see a lot of people with very little crit and crit dmg running xbow and cluster arrow builds because they watched a vid with it when an elemental arrow build would work better for their gear level.
The actual base dmg difference between a bow and xbow isn't as big as people think either since bows have about the same top end/upper range of dmg (xbow still higher dmg hits overall) and the +15% dmg from archery affects all damage including crits, something people tend to forget. There's also very little practical difference in bow vs xbow against an elite pack for someone with said low crit and crit dmg because you're not ever doing enough to burst them down in a few shots. On the other hand if you have gear like TheMango's, the crossbow easily pulls ahead with the additional crit dmg burst and generally higher dmg crits (and hits) since you have such high crit chance. You don't have to stay on your toes as much because things just melt away. Mobility can be argued both ways since you move more between shots with an xbow but have more chances to move while shooting with a bow, I like bow for that because it just feels like you're doing more stuff (clicking more) but I know once I get some more crit chance xbow is gonna pull ahead for burst.
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Alright guys. I need some help.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Terranasaur-1719/hero/7307509
I have been running Butch/Warden with this guy forever it seems like. I just got the Helm and Gloves in the last couple days and I know none of my gear is awesome, but I'm just wondering how close I am to being able to run Act3, where I should start, what I should get, and how much its gonna cost.
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On August 08 2012 17:17 oneofthem wrote:
but the atk cd is a different timer that cna be spent running or standing around waiting for the next atk.
this is proveably false.
d3 != dota
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On August 09 2012 07:17 Terranasaur wrote:Alright guys. I need some help. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Terranasaur-1719/hero/7307509 I have been running Butch/Warden with this guy forever it seems like. I just got the Helm and Gloves in the last couple days and I know none of my gear is awesome, but I'm just wondering how close I am to being able to run Act3, where I should start, what I should get, and how much its gonna cost.
How much money do you have to spend?
You mentioned that you're only farming Act1 bosses - why skip Act2 straight into Act3? With your gear, you'll struggle even in Act2.
My biggest suggestion is to get a 2h crossbow with a socket. You should be able to find a blue one on the AH for under 500k which does decent DPS (slightly above 1k DPS). I also recommend that you play around with crit instead of attack speed.
Next, gloom is not useful if you don't have any resistance. When I farm Act2, I have around 150 AR and 50 extra physical resist with 25k HP and that's good enough for me. But I have 50k DPS which means I can kill things fast enough.
I can farm Act3, but that means I have to drop alot of MF or do it in a group (not always practicable) - hence, my preference is to run the lower content but with high MF. For instance, you can buy dex + MF gear very cheaply, and it'll probably benefit you in the long run by doing lots of Act1 first, gather money, before moving on.
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On August 09 2012 07:17 Terranasaur wrote:Alright guys. I need some help. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Terranasaur-1719/hero/7307509 I have been running Butch/Warden with this guy forever it seems like. I just got the Helm and Gloves in the last couple days and I know none of my gear is awesome, but I'm just wondering how close I am to being able to run Act3, where I should start, what I should get, and how much its gonna cost.
your damage is plenty for act 2-3 imo, but your resists and vit are trash. so you basically have two choices:
- stack even more damage, with crit chance being the priority - your crit chance atm is really low, so your dps is probably hugely inflated by sharpshooter due to high crit damage / low crit chance.
- upgrade your stuff to get more vit / AR. i was able to pick up socketed pants/chest with solid vit, AR, dex for <1m each, which boosted my survivability a lot.
i think generally 2h crossbow + quiver is the way to go, but i havent really tried dual 1h xbows so i cant really say from experience
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Terranasaur.
First thing. If you wanna play sexy DW DH kiting becames extremely hard. With %15 DW attack speed bonus your handcrossbows became ultrafast. That seem great but when you try to kite your enemies it became impossibru. You have to fire-walk for 0.5sec-fire. Just like stimmed marines. It became a pain after 10 minutes of playing. (I broke my new Roccat kone while kiting Or you should have 500-600 AR with decent dps (and with the help of gloom) just stand and fire..
I spend 19m on 2 hand crossbows and failed
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just gonna throw my 2 cents out there. I've logged a few hundred hours on my DH and regeared her quite a few times. the diff between xbow and bow is quite huge. kiting is really much, much easier with a bow, and i find that I die a whole lot less. i like bow much more. but it's also kind of build dependent i think. I run a frost arrow build so fast kiting means enemies rarely reach me. if i wanted to go straight damage burst and run cluster bomb instead, then i might prefer xbow for the bigger dmg.
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On August 09 2012 11:55 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:17 Terranasaur wrote:Alright guys. I need some help. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Terranasaur-1719/hero/7307509 I have been running Butch/Warden with this guy forever it seems like. I just got the Helm and Gloves in the last couple days and I know none of my gear is awesome, but I'm just wondering how close I am to being able to run Act3, where I should start, what I should get, and how much its gonna cost. How much money do you have to spend? You mentioned that you're only farming Act1 bosses - why skip Act2 straight into Act3? With your gear, you'll struggle even in Act2. My biggest suggestion is to get a 2h crossbow with a socket. You should be able to find a blue one on the AH for under 500k which does decent DPS (slightly above 1k DPS). I also recommend that you play around with crit instead of attack speed. Next, gloom is not useful if you don't have any resistance. When I farm Act2, I have around 150 AR and 50 extra physical resist with 25k HP and that's good enough for me. But I have 50k DPS which means I can kill things fast enough. I can farm Act3, but that means I have to drop alot of MF or do it in a group (not always practicable) - hence, my preference is to run the lower content but with high MF. For instance, you can buy dex + MF gear very cheaply, and it'll probably benefit you in the long run by doing lots of Act1 first, gather money, before moving on.
I really don't have much to spend. Thats kind of the problem. I've only ever found 1 item that sold for more than 1 million (a ring that sold for 3) so i'm pretty low on gold. Do you think it would be better/cheaper/faster for me to load up on MF and keep farming act1?
On August 09 2012 12:21 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 07:17 Terranasaur wrote:Alright guys. I need some help. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Terranasaur-1719/hero/7307509 I have been running Butch/Warden with this guy forever it seems like. I just got the Helm and Gloves in the last couple days and I know none of my gear is awesome, but I'm just wondering how close I am to being able to run Act3, where I should start, what I should get, and how much its gonna cost. your damage is plenty for act 2-3 imo, but your resists and vit are trash. so you basically have two choices: - stack even more damage, with crit chance being the priority - your crit chance atm is really low, so your dps is probably hugely inflated by sharpshooter due to high crit damage / low crit chance. - upgrade your stuff to get more vit / AR. i was able to pick up socketed pants/chest with solid vit, AR, dex for <1m each, which boosted my survivability a lot. i think generally 2h crossbow + quiver is the way to go, but i havent really tried dual 1h xbows so i cant really say from experience
Wow. A little starstruck that you took the time to respond to this. Thanks!
Ya, my DPS pre-SS is only like 43k, so it more than double to get to that 105k. I'm pretty comfortable as glass-cannon and my mad SC2 micro skills mean I don't take too many hits. When I do get hit, I obviously die instantly, but it isn't too bad. I farm in teams because I can't kill Butcher on my own. I think I might drop the bosses from my route, add a bunch of MF, and just farm for a while to build up some cash flow. I have a socketed 986 xbow, and a decent quiver, but the 2 hand bows let me blast a ton of ball lightning. It really helps to just clear a whole screen when you can't survive any hits from anything.
On August 09 2012 12:50 Aceace wrote:Terranasaur. First thing. If you wanna play sexy DW DH kiting becames extremely hard. With %15 DW attack speed bonus your handcrossbows became ultrafast. That seem great but when you try to kite your enemies it became impossibru. You have to fire-walk for 0.5sec-fire. Just like stimmed marines. It became a pain after 10 minutes of playing. (I broke my new Roccat kone while kiting Or you should have 500-600 AR with decent dps (and with the help of gloom) just stand and fire.. I spend 19m on 2 hand crossbows and failed
Ya. I tried cluster bombs for a few days after the NT nerf with a 2hander and quiver and it was pretty fun. I switched to the 1handers and found it more efficient for clearing trash mobs in a hurry and staying safe.
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On August 09 2012 14:47 Terranasaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 11:55 Azzur wrote:On August 09 2012 07:17 Terranasaur wrote:Alright guys. I need some help. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Terranasaur-1719/hero/7307509 I have been running Butch/Warden with this guy forever it seems like. I just got the Helm and Gloves in the last couple days and I know none of my gear is awesome, but I'm just wondering how close I am to being able to run Act3, where I should start, what I should get, and how much its gonna cost. How much money do you have to spend? You mentioned that you're only farming Act1 bosses - why skip Act2 straight into Act3? With your gear, you'll struggle even in Act2. My biggest suggestion is to get a 2h crossbow with a socket. You should be able to find a blue one on the AH for under 500k which does decent DPS (slightly above 1k DPS). I also recommend that you play around with crit instead of attack speed. Next, gloom is not useful if you don't have any resistance. When I farm Act2, I have around 150 AR and 50 extra physical resist with 25k HP and that's good enough for me. But I have 50k DPS which means I can kill things fast enough. I can farm Act3, but that means I have to drop alot of MF or do it in a group (not always practicable) - hence, my preference is to run the lower content but with high MF. For instance, you can buy dex + MF gear very cheaply, and it'll probably benefit you in the long run by doing lots of Act1 first, gather money, before moving on. I really don't have much to spend. Thats kind of the problem. I've only ever found 1 item that sold for more than 1 million (a ring that sold for 3) so i'm pretty low on gold. Do you think it would be better/cheaper/faster for me to load up on MF and keep farming act1?
Yes, load up on MF gear and farm Act1. When you get around 150-200 AR you can also farm Act2. If you're in a group with a tank, you can also farm Act3 with MF gear.
In general, I find "Low Act + MF" > "High Act with no MF" - not to mention that it's less frustrating since you won't die unless you make a major mistake.
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EPT
