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On March 03 2012 18:37 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 18:34 FinestHour wrote:
Aren't you tired of making theorycrafting threads by now? You can't possibly know any of this to really be true from the beta. It's actually pretty easy for an expert to solve a system like this and find imbalanced combinations. Also it will be fun to see when they nerf this stuff.
So you think this party is ideal because you've seen what the monsters in inferno difficulty have in store for us right?
Hmmm...
Sounds legit
On March 03 2012 19:14 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 18:51 FeiLing wrote:On March 03 2012 18:37 dacthehork wrote:
It's actually pretty easy for an expert to solve a system like this and find imbalanced combinations. Also it will be fun to see when they nerf this stuff. Go to any game forum to the archive section. Search for theorycrafting threads before release and shortly thereafter. Laugh at all the total bullcrap 'experts' were writing in them  I remember my Beta SC2 predictions Zerg had nothing but macro and was one dimensional, Terran had by far the biggest and most variety in it's toolset and was the best race because of this and would be a pain to balance, and Protoss relied on forcefields early, so the maps would greatly influence how good they where.
Completely different because in SC2 beta every unit was available for use, so you could compare between players in equal conditions, it's really esay to predict like that. This is different, you don't know how stats are going to be affected in the higher difficulties, and what monsters can do to you, you haven't seen them.
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The only thing is... I don't see myself playing diablo 3 to farm the best gear/pick certain skills in order to most efficiently deal with all the monsters and stuff. I'm just going to pick something that looks cool and blow shit up. I could see your point if this was a competitive game, but when it comes down to it, its just a PvE experience and doing all this research and double checking your math kinda kills the fun in it, don't you think?
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On March 04 2012 04:58 TheUltraViolent wrote:
The only thing is... I don't see myself playing diablo 3 to farm the best gear/pick certain skills in order to most efficiently deal with all the monsters and stuff. I'm just going to pick something that looks cool and blow shit up. I could see your point if this was a competitive game, but when it comes down to it, its just a PvE experience and doing all this research and double checking your math kinda kills the fun in it, don't you think?
you dont use much math when evaluating classes, as the best stuff is not damage over time, but rather just looking for where the devs miss valued things. VQ is a good example, they think having 3 long cooldown skills on a WD gimps it by 1/2 to a 1/3rd, but its very easy to fit in 3 long cd, 1 short cd, and always have Vision Quest up to spam 3x as much. Its such a skewed passive it's completely ridiculous.
Blood ritual is also another obviously broken passive, +1% life regen a second, and 15% less mana cost, okay. Spiritual attunement and gruesome feast are also almost up there but not quite as good, although I could see swapping the better one in for tribal rights.
The monk is more a toolset problem than broken value, Just so many "utility" skills that overlap and create a monster, also all have them have great values.
DH Marked for death +15% damage - contagion, spreads after dying
Conviction - AOE - +24% damage constant, no casting.
They sort of decreed that monk and WD are somewhat support classes, the thing is in a 4 man party, you kinda just want to stack support abilities across all 4 characters for max synergy, a wizard sitting alone blasting for max damage is not going to really be what you want versus a WD also blasting away but using tons of CC/buffing skills..
When they do fix these classes a bit more I think you'll see the best parties probably more like monk/barb/wd/wd
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Hey dak, can you take a break from the group comps, and turn your crystal ball on itemization at or near level cap? I'm most interested in crit scaling so I know how viable the increased crit damage runes will be on my DH.
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On March 04 2012 06:19 JingleHell wrote:
Hey dak, can you take a break from the group comps, and turn your crystal ball on itemization at or near level cap? I'm most interested in crit scaling so I know how viable the increased crit damage runes will be on my DH.
Better yet, turn your crystal ball on release date. Frankly I don't care if the game is broken @ release as long as it gets good patch support. Bring it on WWMM combo ftw.
On a side note, do we have information about how monsters will take damage on the higher difficulties. In D2 there were plenty of "immune to x" mobs that would cause serious problems for some chars. Is this foursome vulnerable to anything like that seeing as their damage dealing spells will likely have half of the diversity of a regular foursome?
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On March 03 2012 18:34 FinestHour wrote:
Aren't you tired of making theorycrafting threads by now? You can't possibly know any of this to really be true from the beta.
This x100.
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On March 04 2012 06:43 Reason.SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 06:19 JingleHell wrote:
Hey dak, can you take a break from the group comps, and turn your crystal ball on itemization at or near level cap? I'm most interested in crit scaling so I know how viable the increased crit damage runes will be on my DH. Better yet, turn your crystal ball on release date. Frankly I don't care if the game is broken @ release as long as it gets good patch support. Bring it on WWMM combo ftw. On a side note, do we have information about how monsters will take damage on the higher difficulties. In D2 there were plenty of "immune to x" mobs that would cause serious problems for some chars. Is this foursome vulnerable to anything like that seeing as their damage dealing spells will likely have half of the diversity of a regular foursome?
April 17th.
There is only resistances, no immunities.
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On March 04 2012 06:19 JingleHell wrote:
Hey dak, can you take a break from the group comps, and turn your crystal ball on itemization at or near level cap? I'm most interested in crit scaling so I know how viable the increased crit damage runes will be on my DH.
Crit will not be worth it for damage.
1. A lot of abilities trigger off crit, meaning that crit is not pure a damage increase. So it will be inferior to just pure damage, although it can be a good secondary stat. Crit will mainly be key in builds with triggers off criticals like Archon Wizards who abuse high critical change and persistant AOEs to reduce the cooldown on archon to keep it up most of the time. It's not a damage attribute. There will be crit builds but you need passives or runes that take advantage of "triggered when critical" effects to make itemizing for crit worth it.
If you take a look at wizard, they have a "mega form" aka archon, and a passive that reduces cooldowns on successful crits, builds like this are what will abuse critical chance mods and increased crit runes.
Basically imagine you have a 120s cooldown uber ability
You can lower this with passives, but also take a passive (on crit lower cooldowns 1s)
then stack a ton of persistent AOEs with high crit chance like blizzard runed correctly, cast these out after using armor runed correctly for more crit chance
now you are critting a pack of mobs 2-3 times a second, reducing all your cooldowns quickly, allowing you to abuse high cooldown abilities like Archon. Builds like this are the focus of critical attacks, not really damage, although the damage is nice.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#PYOUme!.bg!ZYZacZ
something like the above build is a "crit" build, I remember a skill that had increased crit chance rune but I guess it was removed in patch 13.
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Funny, so "Your critical hits have a chance to reduce the cooldown of your spells by 1s" translates to Imba. You don't even know how high the chance to reduce the cd is. You also know, that each spell can trigger this ability more than once. So, you think blizzard just forgot that aoe-effects do exist on the wizard.
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Easy now. We've seen nearly nothing of the game yet...
But if you are the expert you claim you are. Why are you not working for Blizzard? I'm sure they'd want an expert like you...
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interesting group setup, would replace one of them with a damage dealer though and feed the dd with gear. Since its true that they should survive with little gear. Doubt they nerf everything though, only one part of it pretty heavily.
The hate here is really funny though. Better never play a rpg where you can actually decide on different builds if this upsets you x3.
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On March 05 2012 20:46 FeyFey wrote:
The hate here is really funny though. Better never play a rpg where you can actually decide on different builds if this upsets you .
People are hating because of the OP's attitude of "know it all" with very little information.
This has nothing to do with imbalance or theory crafting. It's just someone who thinks he have it all figured it out.
Unfortunately, there's plenty of people like that around, enough for Discovery Channel to make a new "reality show"
+ Show Spoiler +
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4bots, while I go to work.
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On March 05 2012 21:09 ezk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 20:46 FeyFey wrote:
The hate here is really funny though. Better never play a rpg where you can actually decide on different builds if this upsets you . People are hating because of the OP's attitude of "know it all" with very little information. This has nothing to do with imbalance or theory crafting. It's just someone who thinks he have it all figured it out. Unfortunately, there's plenty of people like that around, enough for Discovery Channel to make a new "reality show" + Show Spoiler +
Lol canada..... 
The ideal party setup for me will probably be whatever im playing + whatever my friends are playing;)
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On March 06 2012 05:32 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 20:45 Zexion wrote:
I'm sure they'd want an expert like you... Blizzard is actually saturated with high quality in-house alpha/beta testers (they said so themselves, it is partly why this beta is so tiny).
If their playtesters had even a tiny fraction of dacthehork's mighty intellect, the game would not be so obviously broken and trivially solve-able for inferno difficulty farming.
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On March 03 2012 18:37 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 18:34 FinestHour wrote:
Aren't you tired of making theorycrafting threads by now? You can't possibly know any of this to really be true from the beta. It's actually pretty easy for an expert to solve a system like this and find imbalanced combinations. Also it will be fun to see when they nerf this stuff.
That´s some snooty stuff you are talking...
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But I though if you had multiples classes, you could do triple techs like in CTrigger?
(The fact you called yourself an expert took out all your credibility, sorry)
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People being stupid because of your attitude, but
the fact is it that Blizzard is notoriously incompetent when it comes to obvious balance mistakes. Anyone that has been involved in WoW PvP and PvE should be aware of how many times really obvious stuff, even stuff that they were warned about, slipped through.
As for SC2: consider that the devs balanced timings and abilities on maps such as Blistering Sands, Desert Oasis, and Steppes of War. That by itself speaks volumes about the ability of the balance team.
From the people that will bring you the Oracle and Tempest.
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On March 06 2012 12:20 architecture wrote:
People being stupid because of your attitude, but
the fact is it that Blizzard is notoriously incompetent when it comes to obvious balance mistakes. Anyone that has been involved in WoW PvP and PvE should be aware of how many times really obvious stuff, even stuff that they were warned about, slipped through.
As for SC2: consider that the devs balanced timings and abilities on maps such as Blistering Sands, Desert Oasis, and Steppes of War. That by itself speaks volumes about the ability of the balance team.
From the people that will bring you the Oracle and Tempest.
Nah you have to write things like this or no one cares. Anyway the obvious offenders are very clear
Vision Quest : 300% mana regen is just hilarious like I've said a billion times anyone with half a brain could see 3x rage/mana/arcane power is broken. The drawback isn't even a drawback.
Blood ritual: 15% off all magic spells in cost, and +1% hp regen a second. If you look at it for 4 seconds you can see it's broken, 20 hp is literally nothing now and thats what most spells would cost in hp.
Monk: Just the absurd stacking nature of lowering enemy damage, dealt, dodges, blinds, cripples, bubbles, heals, etc Not to mention +24%-48% damage taken mantras, etc. His passives, etc.
It's really blatantly obvious how overpowered these builds are as they synergize so well. Just look through WD skills/runes and all the +% damage for the entire team effects. Hex/BBV/Mass Confusion all have party wide damage buffs in the range of 20-30%, not to mention the OTHER effects associated, aka disabling an enemy, the confusion effect, the +attackspeed and + movespeed. Whereas a SINGLE skill on Demon Hunter does less effect adn to one target, even runed it only spreads after you kill that target,
HEX - +24% damage to target, they are turned into chicken.
Marked for Death or w.e. + 15% damage taken, no disable, must rune to make it spread, decent cooldown
4 Player is the ideal setting due to how monsters scale, only in HP % and only up to 325%. The way skills are balanced, a lot of the "party" buffs are as effective as single person buffs. Meaning just combining all the party buffs in one build and you end up with something multiple times more powerful than a single "damage dealer".
Why have 1 person dealing good damage who offers little utility and has to take a bunch of self buff skills or damage runed abilities. Just have all 4 of your party members buffing eachother up with +20-30% damage buffs, effectively making your team have insane damage, insane survivability, and insane utility.
You just have to analyze the skills a very short period of time.
Here is how it works, blizz wants each character to be good solo or good in a group. right? The thing is they put 1-2 "party abilities" on wizard, barb, and DH. But monk/wd are kind of built to support a party and have a lot more party buffing, aoe skills, etc. So just using monk/wd you get access to a humongous range of big party buffs, along with their good "solo skills". By combining 1-2 of their good abilities with 4-5 party supporting abilities you end up with a mess of destruction and power. Barbarian comes close with some shouts and utility abilities, but is slightly more focused only on buffing himself.
They want Monk/WD party skills to be good with 2 players, but with 4 they don't scale down, it's the same buffs. So they make them overpowered in groups of 3-4, just so they are useful in smaller groups and solo.
The thing is in order to account for the "scaling" of these abilities in larger groups, they need to add diminishing returns, but they haven't in any way. So the "party buffing" skills that work for 4 or 1 person are overpowered in comparison to simply buffing up your own character.
Yeah Wizard can give up a skill slot for a +20% damage buff to THEMSELVES only, but a monk can give one that buffs every member of his parties damage up +24-48%.
Example:
+20% damage buff from enhance weapon for wizard, affects wizard only
+24% conviction aura for Monk - effects entire parties damage
Solo,
monk 100 dps + conviction = 124 dps
Wizard 120 dps + enhance weapon = 145dps
Now in a party of four
Monk 100 dps + 350 dps from party + conviction aura =450 dps normally, (558 dps with monk aura)
Wizard 120 dps + 330 dps from party + enhance weapon = 450 dps normally, (475 dps with enhance weapon)
It's very clear the way "party buffs" scale up in 4 man is so much better than a "self buff" effect, and monk/wd are full of these. WD has 3 very good party buff to damage effects, although on somewhat long cooldowns, hex, bbv, and mass confusion all buff entire party damage.
So you can imagine 2 WD's being able to just increase damage for party immensely, negating any lower inherent dps they have.
Monk has conviction mantra, guiding light, and a lot of defensive focused party buffs, not to mention having a great tanking toolset. Barbarian is close behind monk as well, I just prefer the larger utility toolset of monk.
I think you can expect changes to vision quest, blood ritual, and some toning down of party wide damage buffs. Possibly also to the stacking of monks crippling/disabling/stunning utility as well. It might be intentional that they left these party wide buffs so imba in 4 man teams, just to keep them usable in solo or dual adventuring, there is no reason not to abuse this fact though.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images.ctvdigital.com/images/pub2upload/2/2011_12_7/canadasgreatestknowitall_arthead.jpg)
