On February 19 2011 02:55 mustapusta wrote: as far as i remember, most(keyword) of the post in the thread she called the trolling thread was just "kelly bashing" yes there are some good constructive criticisms , but mostly were "kelly sucks" or "no her plz". and for those that says she has bad game knowledge, i'm not sure how someone with bad game knowledge can win a tournament. http://www.esl.eu/eu/female/sc2/cups/sc2goesfemale4/rankings/
We do know she has some problems with the tempo of speech, and the potential to talk over co-casters, but i'm sure these are things that can be worked on. And to the people who are saying "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HER AT ALL", explain to me how not only i can understand her, but the co-casters could reply to her as well. these are my honest opinions, and yes i'm defending her from the constant bashing.
You accept that she needs improvement, yes? I don't think anyone in this entire thread is against her improving! =/
But some people might prefer that she has practice that doesn't take place at the same time as the most prestigious well known SC2 tournament in the world!
You not consider at least how this may be a little unfair to us spectators, yes? =(
i accept that she does need some improvements, but that doesn't mean that the bashing was required to get this point across, as shown in some posts. and yes it might be a little unfair, but when was anything really fair?
On February 19 2011 03:13 StarStruck wrote: Rather not considering, I have made at least 20 posts with regards to this. My position is succinct. If you miss it, then that's your problem not mine.
I've been trying to avoid speaking about game knowledge and how little relevance it has but mustapusta I hope you realize that is a very bad example of showcasing one's knowledge. The tournament in question had 11 participants.
The reason you can understand it is because you share dialects. If you have a ton of experience with it, then you will be fine. As another guy pointed out in the other thread, its somewhere between 20-30% of the Singaporean population that speak English on a regular basis. Statistically, it has to do with the region more than anything else.
actually i assure you that most of us singaporeans do speak english on a regular basis. The percentage you got were for people who did not spoke english AT home. As for the tournament, if i were to say a tournament only had 12 players, but they are of good skill, would the winner be stripped of any recognition because it only had 12 players? game knowledge apparently has a big relevance to the people who's whining about it, not me. i'm doing my best to reduce the bashing and have people just watch code A.
On February 19 2011 02:55 mustapusta wrote: as far as i remember, most(keyword) of the post in the thread she called the trolling thread was just "kelly bashing" yes there are some good constructive criticisms , but mostly were "kelly sucks" or "no her plz". and for those that says she has bad game knowledge, i'm not sure how someone with bad game knowledge can win a tournament. http://www.esl.eu/eu/female/sc2/cups/sc2goesfemale4/rankings/
We do know she has some problems with the tempo of speech, and the potential to talk over co-casters, but i'm sure these are things that can be worked on. And to the people who are saying "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HER AT ALL", explain to me how not only i can understand her, but the co-casters could reply to her as well. these are my honest opinions, and yes i'm defending her from the constant bashing.
Please stop bringing up a female-only tournament as if it's an indication of anything. This is not a physical sports, and women are not at a physical disadvantage of height, weight, muscle, build or anything like that.
How many female players do you see in your average SC2 tournament? How many do you see in the top SC2 tournaments? How many of them compete at a top level? The answer, to all of these, is zero or near zero. Is that being sexist? No, it's a fact that fewer women play videogames, and even less(relatively) have an interest in competitive gaming.
However, those that do have an interest in it do not get to be excused from equal footing just because they're women. This tournament says absolutely nothing because, by definition, a female only tournament is basically admitting "Well girls, you could NEVER be as good as us, so go play amongst yourselves!".
Stop treating them like children. In an e-sports environment, they are equal, and we are allowed to demand equal qualities to their male counterparts if we want to call them the same level, be it in gaming performance or in casting qualities.
so i take it that in your own words, girls are bad at video games and can never be as good as guys? and i'm also taking it that all the girls at participated in that tournament are terrible players, because it's "not a good indication since it's a woman's only tournament" a tournament is a tournament, regardless of gender. this just proves she's one of the better female players that could participate during that tournament. learn to interpret words before insinuating something.
I'm sorry, but you clearly have too much trouble reading to participate in an actual discussion. I will state this again, without backing arguments as you can read them in my previous post, but the point is again, that women should not be allowed a handicap in video games.
Men do not have a biological, genetic or psychological advantage in video games. There is no reason for women to under perform in video games, nor is there any reason to exclude them from tournaments, or to host female-only tournaments just because they cannot get exposure in big tournaments.
In video games, men and women are equal. If you give women special treatment, it is more insulting to them than anything. Despite the fact that Kelly appears to have no trouble with this, and seemingly wants to capitalize on it, does not make it any less of an insult to her or women as a whole.
You can either accept that men and women are equal(in e-sports), or you can stick to the "but she's a giiiiirl!" defense and basically say that we shouldn't hold her to the same standards because that's unfair. So yes, what I'm saying is, you and most of Kelly's defenders are being sexist and perhaps even objectifying women, while at the same time claiming some moral high ground of being "enlightened" and "treating women like equals", when really, you treat them like children.
HoldenR brings up many excellent points. Basically, by saying all that "she's female" crap means you don't believe in equality of gender in gaming (although statistically proven).
Winning a "females only" tournament does not make your overall game knowledge excellent, analytical skills are involved in casting. The best evidence of a person's casting skill is in the person's casts, not other gaming credentials (although they may play a role). Evidently, her casts haven't been up to par, hence the huge amounts of criticism.
Another thing about giving her chances, I'm pretty sure many have people complained about her being unprofessional on countless occasions, and as many of you have pointed out, she has quite a resume. However, what is shocking is the improvement she has made, if any, throughout her casting career. If she really wanted to improve she probably should have done it by now.
What many people in TL are showing is more of a grievance towards GOM which at the same time implicates Kelly. Of course there is a huge amount of non-objective posts, but really, if she were anywhere decent, she should have more supporters rather than dissenters.
On the other hand, since she was already given the job, people should try to accept it, in hope that she will read all these and react positively and grow instead of just closing herself off to these criticisms. With that being said, I still cross my fingers and hope she can do Singapore proud.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp2t1jN6cR4[/video] "the iem gram finest, in germany, the gram prize is accomodwations en frights covred. they will also get a tousand dollars of um allowance."
You know normally I'm not sexist, but when it comes to sports, or even E-sports, we need a man that knows a damn thing about what he's talking about.
If you ever watch college football, you'd recognize that 5'0 chick that strains her voice every time trying to talk to the players towering nearly 2 feet over her about topics she doesn't understand.
On February 19 2011 02:55 mustapusta wrote: as far as i remember, most(keyword) of the post in the thread she called the trolling thread was just "kelly bashing" yes there are some good constructive criticisms , but mostly were "kelly sucks" or "no her plz". and for those that says she has bad game knowledge, i'm not sure how someone with bad game knowledge can win a tournament. http://www.esl.eu/eu/female/sc2/cups/sc2goesfemale4/rankings/
We do know she has some problems with the tempo of speech, and the potential to talk over co-casters, but i'm sure these are things that can be worked on. And to the people who are saying "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HER AT ALL", explain to me how not only i can understand her, but the co-casters could reply to her as well. these are my honest opinions, and yes i'm defending her from the constant bashing.
Please stop bringing up a female-only tournament as if it's an indication of anything. This is not a physical sports, and women are not at a physical disadvantage of height, weight, muscle, build or anything like that.
How many female players do you see in your average SC2 tournament? How many do you see in the top SC2 tournaments? How many of them compete at a top level? The answer, to all of these, is zero or near zero. Is that being sexist? No, it's a fact that fewer women play videogames, and even less(relatively) have an interest in competitive gaming.
However, those that do have an interest in it do not get to be excused from equal footing just because they're women. This tournament says absolutely nothing because, by definition, a female only tournament is basically admitting "Well girls, you could NEVER be as good as us, so go play amongst yourselves!".
Stop treating them like children. In an e-sports environment, they are equal, and we are allowed to demand equal qualities to their male counterparts if we want to call them the same level, be it in gaming performance or in casting qualities.
so i take it that in your own words, girls are bad at video games and can never be as good as guys? and i'm also taking it that all the girls at participated in that tournament are terrible players, because it's "not a good indication since it's a woman's only tournament" a tournament is a tournament, regardless of gender. this just proves she's one of the better female players that could participate during that tournament. learn to interpret words before insinuating something.
I'm sorry, but you clearly have too much trouble reading to participate in an actual discussion. I will state this again, without backing arguments as you can read them in my previous post, but the point is again, that women should not be allowed a handicap in video games.
Men do not have a biological, genetic or psychological advantage in video games. There is no reason for women to under perform in video games, nor is there any reason to exclude them from tournaments, or to host female-only tournaments just because they cannot get exposure in big tournaments.
In video games, men and women are equal. If you give women special treatment, it is more insulting to them than anything. Despite the fact that Kelly appears to have no trouble with this, and seemingly wants to capitalize on it, does not make it any less of an insult to her or women as a whole.
You can either accept that men and women are equal(in e-sports), or you can stick to the "but she's a giiiiirl!" defense and basically say that we shouldn't hold her to the same standards because that's unfair. So yes, what I'm saying is, you and most of Kelly's defenders are being sexist and perhaps even objectifying women, while at the same time claiming some moral high ground of being "enlightened" and "treating women like equals", when really, you treat them like children.
Sorry for not being able to see your point from before, as i'm extremely exhausted from lack of sleep, but i'll admit that you do have a very good point. But i'll also have to say that having the ability to defeat your opponents and clinch the top prize would mean that you would have at least the minimal knowledge needed to win. My post was more towards people saying that she can't put any useful information to the table, But how would we know? Most of these casts AFAIK were late at night where she would have been worn out by then.
You can speak for yourself, your family and friends, but I will use your governments statistics on this one and it says just over 30 percent of Singapore's population speak English frequently.
As for your other point,
The majority of the complaints are based on her accent. Many of us have a hard time interpreting what she is trying to say. It doesn't stem from her in-game knowledge. Only a select few will argue that front. There is no reason to argue her game knowledge when we already have a problem trying to understand what she says.
With that said, there are only 3 players I know of which took part in that tournament and they aren't good. That's my subjective opinion and I'm entitled to that. You can try to reduce the criticism, bashing, trolling, flaming, etc. all you want, but keep in mind. People will always critique casters regardless. If you were around when Artosis and Tasteless were learning the ropes then you would know what I'm talking about. Using stupid meme's and arguing for the sake of arguing will lead us nowhere.
I think the first word she should work on is the word "English", which she pronounces "Engrish". Ironic isn't it? The new English speaking caster can't even pronounce the word English
On February 19 2011 03:39 StarStruck wrote: You can speak for yourself and your family, but I will use your governments statistics on this one and it says just over 30 percent of Singapore's population speak English frequently.
As for your other point,
The majority of the complaints are based on her accent. Many of us have a hard time interpreting what she is trying to say. It doesn't stem from her in-game knowledge. Only a select few will argue that front. There is no reason to argue her game knowledge when we already have a problem trying to understand what she says.
With that said, there are only 3 players I know of which took part in that tournament and they aren't good. That's my subjective opinion and I'm entitled to that. You can try to reduce the criticism, bashing, trolling, flaming, etc. all you want, but keep in mind. People will always critique casters regardless. If you were around when Artosis and Tasteless were learning the ropes then you would know what I'm talking about. Using stupid meme's and arguing for the sake of arguing will lead us nowhere.
Criticisms are ok, bashing trolling and flaming are not. Anyway I've done all i can here, I'll be heading over to bed and enjoy my birthday tomorrow, final words, GL in korea kelly.
On February 19 2011 03:32 Healedyou wrote: a girl, what is this, i dont even..
You know normally I'm not sexist, but when it comes to sports, or even E-sports, we need a man that knows a damn thing about what he's talking about.
If you ever watch college football, you'd recognize that 5'0 chick that strains her voice every time trying to talk to the players towering nearly 2 feet over her about topics she doesn't understand.
About a game that she has and will never play.
-competitively
Clearly, not sexist. Not one freaking bit!
More on topic though, Kelly did hear the criticisms (the whole 100+25 pages, basically stating the same thing over and over) and said she will work on it. Since many of you do not even bother to read (i.e. Kelly will not be casting with Torch...), here's an interview she's done today:
On February 19 2011 02:55 mustapusta wrote: as far as i remember, most(keyword) of the post in the thread she called the trolling thread was just "kelly bashing" yes there are some good constructive criticisms , but mostly were "kelly sucks" or "no her plz". and for those that says she has bad game knowledge, i'm not sure how someone with bad game knowledge can win a tournament. http://www.esl.eu/eu/female/sc2/cups/sc2goesfemale4/rankings/
We do know she has some problems with the tempo of speech, and the potential to talk over co-casters, but i'm sure these are things that can be worked on. And to the people who are saying "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HER AT ALL", explain to me how not only i can understand her, but the co-casters could reply to her as well. these are my honest opinions, and yes i'm defending her from the constant bashing.
Please stop bringing up a female-only tournament as if it's an indication of anything. This is not a physical sports, and women are not at a physical disadvantage of height, weight, muscle, build or anything like that.
How many female players do you see in your average SC2 tournament? How many do you see in the top SC2 tournaments? How many of them compete at a top level? The answer, to all of these, is zero or near zero. Is that being sexist? No, it's a fact that fewer women play videogames, and even less(relatively) have an interest in competitive gaming.
However, those that do have an interest in it do not get to be excused from equal footing just because they're women. This tournament says absolutely nothing because, by definition, a female only tournament is basically admitting "Well girls, you could NEVER be as good as us, so go play amongst yourselves!".
Stop treating them like children. In an e-sports environment, they are equal, and we are allowed to demand equal qualities to their male counterparts if we want to call them the same level, be it in gaming performance or in casting qualities.
so i take it that in your own words, girls are bad at video games and can never be as good as guys? and i'm also taking it that all the girls at participated in that tournament are terrible players, because it's "not a good indication since it's a woman's only tournament" a tournament is a tournament, regardless of gender. this just proves she's one of the better female players that could participate during that tournament. learn to interpret words before insinuating something.
I'm sorry, but you clearly have too much trouble reading to participate in an actual discussion. I will state this again, without backing arguments as you can read them in my previous post, but the point is again, that women should not be allowed a handicap in video games.
Men do not have a biological, genetic or psychological advantage in video games. There is no reason for women to under perform in video games, nor is there any reason to exclude them from tournaments, or to host female-only tournaments just because they cannot get exposure in big tournaments.
In video games, men and women are equal. If you give women special treatment, it is more insulting to them than anything. Despite the fact that Kelly appears to have no trouble with this, and seemingly wants to capitalize on it, does not make it any less of an insult to her or women as a whole.
You can either accept that men and women are equal(in e-sports), or you can stick to the "but she's a giiiiirl!" defense and basically say that we shouldn't hold her to the same standards because that's unfair. So yes, what I'm saying is, you and most of Kelly's defenders are being sexist and perhaps even objectifying women, while at the same time claiming some moral high ground of being "enlightened" and "treating women like equals", when really, you treat them like children.
Sorry for not being able to see your point from before, as i'm extremely exhausted from lack of sleep, but i'll admit that you do have a very good point. But i'll also have to say that having the ability to defeat your opponents and clinch the top prize would mean that you would have at least the minimal knowledge needed to win. My post was more towards people saying that she can't put any useful information to the table, But how would we know? Most of these casts AFAIK were late at night where she would have been worn out by then.
Yes, she MIGHT have that talent were the tournament at all relevant. If you could, say, post a picture of her reaching the round of 16 in a good to decent tournament with other quality players participating, I'd certainly yield on her ingame skill. However, it's not just from her ladder ranking or previous tournament results that people say she won't bring any useful information to the table, it's from her previous casts.
This video,
Was posted on page 24. I beg you to watch it and head to 8:30, wait for what kelly starts saying at the 8:37 mark(completely talking over her co-caster) and to translate whatever she says at that point until she finishes. I have asked five people so far, and not one of them has been able to understand more than a word. And what's worse is that this is not an individual occurrence, every VOD of her casting online is filled with events like this. Even her co-caster, who I believe is from Singapore as well(Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) appeared to not have understood a single word of what she said. He seemed baffled.
Even if her game experience were not on trial here, and technically it isn't, her casting history definitely is. And trust me, I am trying to find the bright side here because I very much enjoy the GSL and GOMTV's coverage of it, but me(and others) are not posting here out of malice and hatred toward Kelly. We are dissapointed, and sad, to see someone who has a track record of underperforming and basically making SC2 casts something painful to listen to, attain a position at what is currently the cream of the crop for SC2 tournaments, especially when so many foreigners that many of us are rooting for are getting their first shot at it.(Because it's always more fun to cheer for a home team - be they from your continent or your country).
On February 19 2011 02:55 mustapusta wrote: as far as i remember, most(keyword) of the post in the thread she called the trolling thread was just "kelly bashing" yes there are some good constructive criticisms , but mostly were "kelly sucks" or "no her plz". and for those that says she has bad game knowledge, i'm not sure how someone with bad game knowledge can win a tournament. http://www.esl.eu/eu/female/sc2/cups/sc2goesfemale4/rankings/
We do know she has some problems with the tempo of speech, and the potential to talk over co-casters, but i'm sure these are things that can be worked on. And to the people who are saying "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HER AT ALL", explain to me how not only i can understand her, but the co-casters could reply to her as well. these are my honest opinions, and yes i'm defending her from the constant bashing.
Please stop bringing up a female-only tournament as if it's an indication of anything. This is not a physical sports, and women are not at a physical disadvantage of height, weight, muscle, build or anything like that.
How many female players do you see in your average SC2 tournament? How many do you see in the top SC2 tournaments? How many of them compete at a top level? The answer, to all of these, is zero or near zero. Is that being sexist? No, it's a fact that fewer women play videogames, and even less(relatively) have an interest in competitive gaming.
However, those that do have an interest in it do not get to be excused from equal footing just because they're women. This tournament says absolutely nothing because, by definition, a female only tournament is basically admitting "Well girls, you could NEVER be as good as us, so go play amongst yourselves!".
Stop treating them like children. In an e-sports environment, they are equal, and we are allowed to demand equal qualities to their male counterparts if we want to call them the same level, be it in gaming performance or in casting qualities.
so i take it that in your own words, girls are bad at video games and can never be as good as guys? and i'm also taking it that all the girls at participated in that tournament are terrible players, because it's "not a good indication since it's a woman's only tournament" a tournament is a tournament, regardless of gender. this just proves she's one of the better female players that could participate during that tournament. learn to interpret words before insinuating something.
I'm sorry, but you clearly have too much trouble reading to participate in an actual discussion. I will state this again, without backing arguments as you can read them in my previous post, but the point is again, that women should not be allowed a handicap in video games.
Men do not have a biological, genetic or psychological advantage in video games. There is no reason for women to under perform in video games, nor is there any reason to exclude them from tournaments, or to host female-only tournaments just because they cannot get exposure in big tournaments.
In video games, men and women are equal. If you give women special treatment, it is more insulting to them than anything. Despite the fact that Kelly appears to have no trouble with this, and seemingly wants to capitalize on it, does not make it any less of an insult to her or women as a whole.
You can either accept that men and women are equal(in e-sports), or you can stick to the "but she's a giiiiirl!" defense and basically say that we shouldn't hold her to the same standards because that's unfair. So yes, what I'm saying is, you and most of Kelly's defenders are being sexist and perhaps even objectifying women, while at the same time claiming some moral high ground of being "enlightened" and "treating women like equals", when really, you treat them like children.
you said yourself there are less girls in the competitive gaming scene...therefore the player pool is smaller and the general level of skill lower. the fact is she has no idea what she's talking about.
On February 19 2011 02:55 mustapusta wrote: as far as i remember, most(keyword) of the post in the thread she called the trolling thread was just "kelly bashing" yes there are some good constructive criticisms , but mostly were "kelly sucks" or "no her plz". and for those that says she has bad game knowledge, i'm not sure how someone with bad game knowledge can win a tournament. http://www.esl.eu/eu/female/sc2/cups/sc2goesfemale4/rankings/
We do know she has some problems with the tempo of speech, and the potential to talk over co-casters, but i'm sure these are things that can be worked on. And to the people who are saying "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HER AT ALL", explain to me how not only i can understand her, but the co-casters could reply to her as well. these are my honest opinions, and yes i'm defending her from the constant bashing.
Please stop bringing up a female-only tournament as if it's an indication of anything. This is not a physical sports, and women are not at a physical disadvantage of height, weight, muscle, build or anything like that.
How many female players do you see in your average SC2 tournament? How many do you see in the top SC2 tournaments? How many of them compete at a top level? The answer, to all of these, is zero or near zero. Is that being sexist? No, it's a fact that fewer women play videogames, and even less(relatively) have an interest in competitive gaming.
However, those that do have an interest in it do not get to be excused from equal footing just because they're women. This tournament says absolutely nothing because, by definition, a female only tournament is basically admitting "Well girls, you could NEVER be as good as us, so go play amongst yourselves!".
Stop treating them like children. In an e-sports environment, they are equal, and we are allowed to demand equal qualities to their male counterparts if we want to call them the same level, be it in gaming performance or in casting qualities.
so i take it that in your own words, girls are bad at video games and can never be as good as guys? and i'm also taking it that all the girls at participated in that tournament are terrible players, because it's "not a good indication since it's a woman's only tournament" a tournament is a tournament, regardless of gender. this just proves she's one of the better female players that could participate during that tournament. learn to interpret words before insinuating something.
I'm sorry, but you clearly have too much trouble reading to participate in an actual discussion. I will state this again, without backing arguments as you can read them in my previous post, but the point is again, that women should not be allowed a handicap in video games.
Men do not have a biological, genetic or psychological advantage in video games. There is no reason for women to under perform in video games, nor is there any reason to exclude them from tournaments, or to host female-only tournaments just because they cannot get exposure in big tournaments.
In video games, men and women are equal. If you give women special treatment, it is more insulting to them than anything. Despite the fact that Kelly appears to have no trouble with this, and seemingly wants to capitalize on it, does not make it any less of an insult to her or women as a whole.
You can either accept that men and women are equal(in e-sports), or you can stick to the "but she's a giiiiirl!" defense and basically say that we shouldn't hold her to the same standards because that's unfair. So yes, what I'm saying is, you and most of Kelly's defenders are being sexist and perhaps even objectifying women, while at the same time claiming some moral high ground of being "enlightened" and "treating women like equals", when really, you treat them like children.
you said yourself there are less girls in the competitive gaming scene...therefore the player pool is smaller and the general level of skill lower. the fact is she has no idea what she's talking about.
ZERGLING ALL IN ANYONE?
Being female isn't the problem. The accent isn't the problem either. Understanding the words that come out of her mouth is the problem.
The article was already discussed several pages ago, here's my reply:
On February 18 2011 23:05 StarStruck wrote: Agreed Calasmere,
I can see why she would say something like that, but if you break it down on an aesthetic level, her accent is very different from Rotterdam's. This proves she doesn't quite understand why people find her voice unappealing to begin with.
With that said, I remember the first time hearing a voice recording of myself and the first thing I said was, "Do I really sound like that?"
On February 19 2011 03:42 zenyu wrote: I think the first word she should work on is the word "English", which she pronounces "Engrish". Ironic isn't it? The new English speaking caster can't even pronounce the word English
That's... the wrong stereotype? She's from Singapore, not China And besides, since when would casters say the word 'English' during a game?
On February 19 2011 02:55 mustapusta wrote: as far as i remember, most(keyword) of the post in the thread she called the trolling thread was just "kelly bashing" yes there are some good constructive criticisms , but mostly were "kelly sucks" or "no her plz". and for those that says she has bad game knowledge, i'm not sure how someone with bad game knowledge can win a tournament. http://www.esl.eu/eu/female/sc2/cups/sc2goesfemale4/rankings/
We do know she has some problems with the tempo of speech, and the potential to talk over co-casters, but i'm sure these are things that can be worked on. And to the people who are saying "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HER AT ALL", explain to me how not only i can understand her, but the co-casters could reply to her as well. these are my honest opinions, and yes i'm defending her from the constant bashing.
Please stop bringing up a female-only tournament as if it's an indication of anything. This is not a physical sports, and women are not at a physical disadvantage of height, weight, muscle, build or anything like that.
How many female players do you see in your average SC2 tournament? How many do you see in the top SC2 tournaments? How many of them compete at a top level? The answer, to all of these, is zero or near zero. Is that being sexist? No, it's a fact that fewer women play videogames, and even less(relatively) have an interest in competitive gaming.
However, those that do have an interest in it do not get to be excused from equal footing just because they're women. This tournament says absolutely nothing because, by definition, a female only tournament is basically admitting "Well girls, you could NEVER be as good as us, so go play amongst yourselves!".
Stop treating them like children. In an e-sports environment, they are equal, and we are allowed to demand equal qualities to their male counterparts if we want to call them the same level, be it in gaming performance or in casting qualities.
so i take it that in your own words, girls are bad at video games and can never be as good as guys? and i'm also taking it that all the girls at participated in that tournament are terrible players, because it's "not a good indication since it's a woman's only tournament" a tournament is a tournament, regardless of gender. this just proves she's one of the better female players that could participate during that tournament. learn to interpret words before insinuating something.
I'm sorry, but you clearly have too much trouble reading to participate in an actual discussion. I will state this again, without backing arguments as you can read them in my previous post, but the point is again, that women should not be allowed a handicap in video games.
Men do not have a biological, genetic or psychological advantage in video games. There is no reason for women to under perform in video games, nor is there any reason to exclude them from tournaments, or to host female-only tournaments just because they cannot get exposure in big tournaments.
In video games, men and women are equal. If you give women special treatment, it is more insulting to them than anything. Despite the fact that Kelly appears to have no trouble with this, and seemingly wants to capitalize on it, does not make it any less of an insult to her or women as a whole.
You can either accept that men and women are equal(in e-sports), or you can stick to the "but she's a giiiiirl!" defense and basically say that we shouldn't hold her to the same standards because that's unfair. So yes, what I'm saying is, you and most of Kelly's defenders are being sexist and perhaps even objectifying women, while at the same time claiming some moral high ground of being "enlightened" and "treating women like equals", when really, you treat them like children.
you said yourself there are less girls in the competitive gaming scene...therefore the player pool is smaller and the general level of skill lower. the fact is she has no idea what she's talking about.
ZERGLING ALL IN ANYONE?
Yes, you seem to have missed the point. What I explained is why there is no basis for her to be judged differently from men, and that when we do judge her on the same level, we find her lacking in qualities that we (I) find she needs to be a caster in SC2.
The point is that sticking up for her and saying "go easy on her, it's just a girl" only promotes the idea that women will never be able to live up to men in video games or e-sports. The point is, just because this girl can't doesn't mean no women can. And Kelly's fans and friends should accept that.
On February 19 2011 02:55 mustapusta wrote: as far as i remember, most(keyword) of the post in the thread she called the trolling thread was just "kelly bashing" yes there are some good constructive criticisms , but mostly were "kelly sucks" or "no her plz". and for those that says she has bad game knowledge, i'm not sure how someone with bad game knowledge can win a tournament. http://www.esl.eu/eu/female/sc2/cups/sc2goesfemale4/rankings/
We do know she has some problems with the tempo of speech, and the potential to talk over co-casters, but i'm sure these are things that can be worked on. And to the people who are saying "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HER AT ALL", explain to me how not only i can understand her, but the co-casters could reply to her as well. these are my honest opinions, and yes i'm defending her from the constant bashing.
Please stop bringing up a female-only tournament as if it's an indication of anything. This is not a physical sports, and women are not at a physical disadvantage of height, weight, muscle, build or anything like that.
How many female players do you see in your average SC2 tournament? How many do you see in the top SC2 tournaments? How many of them compete at a top level? The answer, to all of these, is zero or near zero. Is that being sexist? No, it's a fact that fewer women play videogames, and even less(relatively) have an interest in competitive gaming.
However, those that do have an interest in it do not get to be excused from equal footing just because they're women. This tournament says absolutely nothing because, by definition, a female only tournament is basically admitting "Well girls, you could NEVER be as good as us, so go play amongst yourselves!".
Stop treating them like children. In an e-sports environment, they are equal, and we are allowed to demand equal qualities to their male counterparts if we want to call them the same level, be it in gaming performance or in casting qualities.
so i take it that in your own words, girls are bad at video games and can never be as good as guys? and i'm also taking it that all the girls at participated in that tournament are terrible players, because it's "not a good indication since it's a woman's only tournament" a tournament is a tournament, regardless of gender. this just proves she's one of the better female players that could participate during that tournament. learn to interpret words before insinuating something.
I'm sorry, but you clearly have too much trouble reading to participate in an actual discussion. I will state this again, without backing arguments as you can read them in my previous post, but the point is again, that women should not be allowed a handicap in video games.
Men do not have a biological, genetic or psychological advantage in video games. There is no reason for women to under perform in video games, nor is there any reason to exclude them from tournaments, or to host female-only tournaments just because they cannot get exposure in big tournaments.
In video games, men and women are equal. If you give women special treatment, it is more insulting to them than anything. Despite the fact that Kelly appears to have no trouble with this, and seemingly wants to capitalize on it, does not make it any less of an insult to her or women as a whole.
You can either accept that men and women are equal(in e-sports), or you can stick to the "but she's a giiiiirl!" defense and basically say that we shouldn't hold her to the same standards because that's unfair. So yes, what I'm saying is, you and most of Kelly's defenders are being sexist and perhaps even objectifying women, while at the same time claiming some moral high ground of being "enlightened" and "treating women like equals", when really, you treat them like children.
you said yourself there are less girls in the competitive gaming scene...therefore the player pool is smaller and the general level of skill lower. the fact is she has no idea what she's talking about.
ZERGLING ALL IN ANYONE?
Being female isn't the problem. The accent isn't the problem either. Understanding the words that come out of her mouth is the problem.
i agree. that, and the analysis she provides is completely incorrect half of the time.
On February 19 2011 02:55 mustapusta wrote: as far as i remember, most(keyword) of the post in the thread she called the trolling thread was just "kelly bashing" yes there are some good constructive criticisms , but mostly were "kelly sucks" or "no her plz". and for those that says she has bad game knowledge, i'm not sure how someone with bad game knowledge can win a tournament. http://www.esl.eu/eu/female/sc2/cups/sc2goesfemale4/rankings/
We do know she has some problems with the tempo of speech, and the potential to talk over co-casters, but i'm sure these are things that can be worked on. And to the people who are saying "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HER AT ALL", explain to me how not only i can understand her, but the co-casters could reply to her as well. these are my honest opinions, and yes i'm defending her from the constant bashing.
Please stop bringing up a female-only tournament as if it's an indication of anything. This is not a physical sports, and women are not at a physical disadvantage of height, weight, muscle, build or anything like that.
How many female players do you see in your average SC2 tournament? How many do you see in the top SC2 tournaments? How many of them compete at a top level? The answer, to all of these, is zero or near zero. Is that being sexist? No, it's a fact that fewer women play videogames, and even less(relatively) have an interest in competitive gaming.
However, those that do have an interest in it do not get to be excused from equal footing just because they're women. This tournament says absolutely nothing because, by definition, a female only tournament is basically admitting "Well girls, you could NEVER be as good as us, so go play amongst yourselves!".
Stop treating them like children. In an e-sports environment, they are equal, and we are allowed to demand equal qualities to their male counterparts if we want to call them the same level, be it in gaming performance or in casting qualities.
so i take it that in your own words, girls are bad at video games and can never be as good as guys? and i'm also taking it that all the girls at participated in that tournament are terrible players, because it's "not a good indication since it's a woman's only tournament" a tournament is a tournament, regardless of gender. this just proves she's one of the better female players that could participate during that tournament. learn to interpret words before insinuating something.
I'm sorry, but you clearly have too much trouble reading to participate in an actual discussion. I will state this again, without backing arguments as you can read them in my previous post, but the point is again, that women should not be allowed a handicap in video games.
Men do not have a biological, genetic or psychological advantage in video games. There is no reason for women to under perform in video games, nor is there any reason to exclude them from tournaments, or to host female-only tournaments just because they cannot get exposure in big tournaments.
In video games, men and women are equal. If you give women special treatment, it is more insulting to them than anything. Despite the fact that Kelly appears to have no trouble with this, and seemingly wants to capitalize on it, does not make it any less of an insult to her or women as a whole.
You can either accept that men and women are equal(in e-sports), or you can stick to the "but she's a giiiiirl!" defense and basically say that we shouldn't hold her to the same standards because that's unfair. So yes, what I'm saying is, you and most of Kelly's defenders are being sexist and perhaps even objectifying women, while at the same time claiming some moral high ground of being "enlightened" and "treating women like equals", when really, you treat them like children.
you said yourself there are less girls in the competitive gaming scene...therefore the player pool is smaller and the general level of skill lower. the fact is she has no idea what she's talking about.
ZERGLING ALL IN ANYONE?
Being female isn't the problem. The accent isn't the problem either. Understanding the words that come out of her mouth is the problem.
i agree. that, and the analysis she provides is completely incorrect half of the time.
I might agree on the analysis part if I could first understand what the analysis is
On February 19 2011 02:55 mustapusta wrote: as far as i remember, most(keyword) of the post in the thread she called the trolling thread was just "kelly bashing" yes there are some good constructive criticisms , but mostly were "kelly sucks" or "no her plz". and for those that says she has bad game knowledge, i'm not sure how someone with bad game knowledge can win a tournament. http://www.esl.eu/eu/female/sc2/cups/sc2goesfemale4/rankings/
We do know she has some problems with the tempo of speech, and the potential to talk over co-casters, but i'm sure these are things that can be worked on. And to the people who are saying "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HER AT ALL", explain to me how not only i can understand her, but the co-casters could reply to her as well. these are my honest opinions, and yes i'm defending her from the constant bashing.
Please stop bringing up a female-only tournament as if it's an indication of anything. This is not a physical sports, and women are not at a physical disadvantage of height, weight, muscle, build or anything like that.
How many female players do you see in your average SC2 tournament? How many do you see in the top SC2 tournaments? How many of them compete at a top level? The answer, to all of these, is zero or near zero. Is that being sexist? No, it's a fact that fewer women play videogames, and even less(relatively) have an interest in competitive gaming.
However, those that do have an interest in it do not get to be excused from equal footing just because they're women. This tournament says absolutely nothing because, by definition, a female only tournament is basically admitting "Well girls, you could NEVER be as good as us, so go play amongst yourselves!".
Stop treating them like children. In an e-sports environment, they are equal, and we are allowed to demand equal qualities to their male counterparts if we want to call them the same level, be it in gaming performance or in casting qualities.
so i take it that in your own words, girls are bad at video games and can never be as good as guys? and i'm also taking it that all the girls at participated in that tournament are terrible players, because it's "not a good indication since it's a woman's only tournament" a tournament is a tournament, regardless of gender. this just proves she's one of the better female players that could participate during that tournament. learn to interpret words before insinuating something.
I'm sorry, but you clearly have too much trouble reading to participate in an actual discussion. I will state this again, without backing arguments as you can read them in my previous post, but the point is again, that women should not be allowed a handicap in video games.
Men do not have a biological, genetic or psychological advantage in video games. There is no reason for women to under perform in video games, nor is there any reason to exclude them from tournaments, or to host female-only tournaments just because they cannot get exposure in big tournaments.
In video games, men and women are equal. If you give women special treatment, it is more insulting to them than anything. Despite the fact that Kelly appears to have no trouble with this, and seemingly wants to capitalize on it, does not make it any less of an insult to her or women as a whole.
You can either accept that men and women are equal(in e-sports), or you can stick to the "but she's a giiiiirl!" defense and basically say that we shouldn't hold her to the same standards because that's unfair. So yes, what I'm saying is, you and most of Kelly's defenders are being sexist and perhaps even objectifying women, while at the same time claiming some moral high ground of being "enlightened" and "treating women like equals", when really, you treat them like children.
you said yourself there are less girls in the competitive gaming scene...therefore the player pool is smaller and the general level of skill lower. the fact is she has no idea what she's talking about.
ZERGLING ALL IN ANYONE?
Yes, you seem to have missed the point. What I explained is why there is no basis for her to be judged differently from men, and that when we do judge her on the same level, we find her lacking in qualities that we (I) find she needs to be a caster in SC2.
The point is that sticking up for her and saying "go easy on her, it's just a girl" only promotes the idea that women will never be able to live up to men in video games or e-sports. The point is, just because this girl can't doesn't mean no women can. And Kelly's fans and friends should accept that.
yeah to be completely honest i didn't even read your post. FUEL TO THE FIRE. deserves to burn anyway
EPT
