EPTI almost feel SC2 would be best off just having different maps for different matchups, because a ZvP is so different from TvZ and PvT. In SC1, if you had a 3rd base with a small choke, it would help defend for all races vs all races. Sunkens and Lurkers would make it defendable for Zerg, walls and Siege Tanks for Terran, and wall, Cannon, and Storm for Protoss. But in SC2 they defend the expansions so differently -Terran and Protoss want it tight, and Zerg wants a huge area to flank outside of the expo. Thats why I think it’s almost impossible to balance it.
[Interview] MorroW on SC2 Maps - Page 3
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Marou
Germany1371 Posts
I almost feel SC2 would be best off just having different maps for different matchups, because a ZvP is so different from TvZ and PvT. In SC1, if you had a 3rd base with a small choke, it would help defend for all races vs all races. Sunkens and Lurkers would make it defendable for Zerg, walls and Siege Tanks for Terran, and wall, Cannon, and Storm for Protoss. But in SC2 they defend the expansions so differently -Terran and Protoss want it tight, and Zerg wants a huge area to flank outside of the expo. Thats why I think it’s almost impossible to balance it. | ||
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lac29
United States1485 Posts
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legaton
France1763 Posts
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
Also the part about the gimmicky features of a lot of the maps was spot on. Until map makers really fathom how exactly maps influence balance in SC2, the focus shouldn't be on grasses and random amazing looking textures and stuff, but instead working the basic things. Just a great interview. | ||
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TORTOISE
United States515 Posts
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:32 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: Morrow made 1 good point that most people will overlook, so I will restate its significance: Each race wants different terrain out of a map. Zerg needs massive open areas, terran wants tight chokes vs zerg but not protoss, protoss wants as many chokes as possible. You cannot design 1 map that suits all the races. Races do not have the versatility that they had in BW. Remember in BW how a large open area in TvP was death for terran, so T would use mines and hug a wall to turn the attack path into a narrow corridor? Another example: Zerg has a very narrow bridge to one 3rd, and a line of cliffs to another. He'll go for the cliff 3rd if he makes muta or the bridge 3rd if he opens lurker. Zerg doesn't have a choice of openings in sc2. Terran doesn't have tools for blocking terrain movement. All chokes are protoss favored no matter what because of FF and storm/colossi. The lack of versatility of unit choice, because unit choice is more dependent on what your opponent makes than what you want to do with your expanding, kills map design. What Morrow is suggesting is that we have separate maps for each MU, but that's ridiculous. What a look at the true problems with maps indicates is not a problem that is exclusive to maps, but a reflection on race design and versatility, and consequentially balance. If this game cannot be balanced on a single map for all MUs, is it possible that it is not balanced as a game? See I disagree with him there. I feel that the way the metagame is right now, protosses never really going high templar versus zerg for one thing, zvp feels the way he described. If they went high templar, I think it would be much different. The metagame is too young at the moment to say that zerg will win in an open area, protoss will win in a tight area. If it's roach hydra corrupter versus gateway army and colossus with force fields he's right. And that's all we see right now. That doesn't mean that has to be the only thing we see. | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
On January 14 2011 00:16 Darpa wrote: Whats funny is if they make these maps part of gsl, terrans will get run over by zerg and protoss (if the maps are to large) because terran works best at close positions. Blizzard will then have to balance over third party maps. I just really dont see that going anywhere. No, not really. See MVP's games today. If the maps are very big, Terrans can abuse mass orbitals. It might not be very popular yet but the mule mechanics certainly does not put them on a disadvantage with them being able to get pure 200/200 army and still have an economy. Morrow' concern is more about the playstyle becoming very dry/boring/turtlefest because harass/drops will be more ineffective which is very valid. | ||
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DarkGeneral
Canada328 Posts
He has some good points otherwise. I too, like glacial spike. | ||
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Purpose2
England187 Posts
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
This is a summation of why i like this interview so much! Thank you morrow! I really appreciate the time you took to explain these kinds of things to us! However, sadly I don't think we will see different maps for different match ups any time soon, HOWEVER IDEA: What if players just used destructible rocks more in chokes? that way, the zerg could knock it down for more space, and the terran and toss could leave them up for tighter chokes. Adjusting the map based on the player. Not just using rocks for new paths. Just like how lurker eggs work with wall offs in sc1 | ||
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
On January 14 2011 03:54 Aberu wrote: See I disagree with him there. I feel that the way the metagame is right now, protosses never really going high templar versus zerg for one thing, zvp feels the way he described. If they went high templar, I think it would be much different. The metagame is too young at the moment to say that zerg will win in an open area, protoss will win in a tight area. If it's roach hydra corrupter versus gateway army and colossus with force fields he's right. And that's all we see right now. That doesn't mean that has to be the only thing we see. .... What, "The metagame is too young at the moment to say that zerg will win in an open area, protoss will win in a tight area." the way the units are designed , as well as basic spells (FORCE FIELD) favor protoss units in small areas, Did you play much sc1? because templar function the same now as they did then, so we know how they actually function... It would be the same. and if you're talking about air units for toss, then smaller areas favor air units anyways. | ||
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anatem
Romania1369 Posts
the one thing i really had a big problem with was the QQ about LT natural being tankable and asking for maps you can straight-up macro without worrying about truly dangerous harass. too much zerg bias for my taste, get off it please. bw tournament maps had cliffs all over where you could dragoon drop, tank drop, etc., and huge open spaces in the main behind minerals where you could drop anything with all 3 races 24/7. you need this kind of thing for strategical development of the game, make everyone be able to take their nat easymode and take it from there and you can start televising sc on the tree channel, plus it won't solve anything except change what race is favored in random XvX matchup. you can't balance the game for macro-only games, it strips it of much of its complexity the one thing i really liked on the other hand was the issue of strong map imbalance for various matchups that he raised. i do think sc2 has some basic design flaws on the level of the core mechanics of each race which cause all these problems. and i don't think this can be solved until the introduction of new units to the game to change the dynamics of all matchups. till that time though, the guy makes a good point that progamers need to be involved with the mapmaking community, and after all the qq from all 3 directions (races) is ironed out, get good maps that feel comfortable for both 1/2-base play and long macro games without too large a bias for any one race. the map balance by the community (especially the pros and tournament organizers) needs to get ahead of the race balance by the game developer imo, so that the game may evolve in a direction more suited to the esports' scene requirements and expectations, and not be so dependent on blizz's unreliable and static ladder | ||
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Johanaz
Denmark363 Posts
Look for the [M] tag for melee maps. | ||
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FrostShadow
United States335 Posts
On January 14 2011 04:30 DarkGeneral wrote: heh... no disrespect but, umm, this dude has a HUGE Zerg bias... he likes maps that you can expo, and expo safely, all the way to 4th... He has some good points otherwise. I too, like glacial spike. I dont see how you can say MorroW has a zerg bias when he played terran at an extremely high level for so long. I think he understands z, t and mapmaking overall pretty well. if pros really want better maps, they should give constructive input like that found in this interview, instead of just complaining. | ||
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Whiplash
United States2928 Posts
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Mintastic
United States166 Posts
On January 14 2011 04:30 DarkGeneral wrote: heh... no disrespect but, umm, this dude has a HUGE Zerg bias... he likes maps that you can expo, and expo safely, all the way to 4th... He has some good points otherwise. I too, like glacial spike. If the zerg can safely expand, then what's stopping the other races? Good insight from Morrow, I'd like to see some SC2 maps from him. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On January 14 2011 03:54 Aberu wrote: See I disagree with him there. I feel that the way the metagame is right now, protosses never really going high templar versus zerg for one thing, zvp feels the way he described. If they went high templar, I think it would be much different. The metagame is too young at the moment to say that zerg will win in an open area, protoss will win in a tight area. If it's roach hydra corrupter versus gateway army and colossus with force fields he's right. And that's all we see right now. That doesn't mean that has to be the only thing we see. Protoss never go Storm in ZvP because the need the gas to kill roaches. Roaches have so much HP and move so quickly they can easily storm dodge taking minimal damage and then burrow to heal. Collosi on the other hand rape roaches. | ||
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Skank
United States329 Posts
On January 13 2011 19:48 Vei wrote: p.s. 20 expos wtf? i dread the tvt's some people will have to watch (and worse... play) on that beast. I would cry. I would need to reserve like 2 hours of my time just for one game. | ||
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