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On December 13 2010 03:37 shannn wrote:
Bo1 is probably the best and realistic choice. Reason is simply because there is only 1 studio as far as we know and that is the current GSL studio which is airing the GSL Open seasons.
GSL with so many tournaments wants to be on schedule and having more games means more airing time but also means longer tournament which could delay the schedule that they've planned for 2011.
People need to realise there is also an A league which means even more matches. A tournament with just single elimination of 64 players was already a total of 63 matches.
The GSL S league has 2 group stages and then a single elimination tournament. That in itself will take quite some time to finish. And then the GSL has to wrap the A league too. Bo3 in group stages would simply be too much as it already is.
Unless the A league is not going to be covered by the GSL which I doubt then Bo3 could be set in the group stage. Imagine Tastosis covering the A league and S league. They'd be doing it non stop 10+ hours every day. Too much workload which I hope they don't get for their health.
Anything BO1 is a bad idea. I don't care what the implication is.
There aren't 12 seasons of S and A league, though, so it shouldn't be THAT much of a workload. At least it won't be like GSL 1-3 RO64 every day.
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Australia8532 Posts
On December 13 2010 03:37 shannn wrote:
Bo1 is probably the best and realistic choice. Reason is simply because there is only 1 studio as far as we know and that is the current GSL studio which is airing the GSL Open seasons.
GSL with so many tournaments wants to be on schedule and having more games means more airing time but also means longer tournament which could delay the schedule that they've planned for 2011.
People need to realise there is also an A league which means even more matches. A tournament with just single elimination of 64 players was already a total of 63 matches.
The GSL S league has 2 group stages and then a single elimination tournament. That in itself will take quite some time to finish. And then the GSL has to wrap the A league too. Bo3 in group stages would simply be too much as it already is.
Unless the A league is not going to be covered by the GSL which I doubt then Bo3 could be set in the group stage. Imagine Tastosis covering the A league and S league. They'd be doing it non stop 10+ hours every day. Too much workload which I hope they don't get for their health.
I'm sorry to disagree with you but BO1 is never the better option. GSL is the premier league in the Starcraft 2 scene; relying on best of 1 games is the worst possible choice to ensure the best players advance. Yes, there are time considerations, yes they want everything to run on schedule - but yes you are the number 1 tournament for sc2 in the world which maintains a $87k per month winners prize and is sponsored by sony ericsson and includes Blizzard involvement. BO3 - Make It Happen!
Starcraft 2 is currently at the point in time where any player can take any game off anyone at any point in time. The game is to young to have established personalities within the scene that will guarantee that a BO1 won't result in some scrub advancing. As much as anyone might like Action Jesus - 6 pooling your way through one of the biggest European tournaments is pretty lame.
Just my thoughts.
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On December 12 2010 00:00 Rah wrote:
gotta love affirmative action eh
this is nothing like affirmative action. why aren't these posts getting warned? i've seen a few "affirmative action" jokes on this site, and it's really obnoxious....besides bad attempts at being funny, it doesn't even make sense from a logical standpoint. they have spots reserved for the top performers from "foreigner tournaments", whether this means you can't be Korean or not has yet to be seen, and even if it DOES mean that, so what? you STILL have to EARN an invite by WINNING. they are trying to live up to their name, GLOBAL star league!
+ Show Spoiler +(rant full on mode)
as a black person who loves starcraft 2, these kinds of things urk me so much. whether it's InControl throwing a "what's up my nigga" to IdrA on the sotg podcast, (not that bad i still like the podcast and incontrol) or Psystarcraft casting a livegame and saying "you silly little negro" then trying to say he said knee growth, to people saying "oh they put Tosh in the game because of affirmative action herp derp"....just be mindful that people of ALL backgrounds read team liquid and listen to the podcasts and pay to watch GSL and i'm not trying to say you cant make jokes, and they don't necessarily hurt me i experience worse IRL but just have some tact sometimes. As someone fairly new to rts gaming it gives an essence of "exclusion" which is just not cool. even writing these posts are exhausting because they tend on becoming a gang-raping of "oh ur sensitive its the internet, its not a big deal you have a sense of entitlement thats undeserved" etc etc, well guess what if someone doesn't say something then it just continues. that is how things like affirmative action came about in the first place
and just to be clear, "affirmative action" in this context would be something like this:
"in the past GSL qualifiers were open, but only available to male contestants. to remedy this oppression there are three slots reserved for female players, based on exceptional ladder ranking or tournament wins"
...this is nothing like that. whether AA is something you disagree with fine, but be mindful especially if you have never been discriminated against over something you cannot control.
other than that peace, can't wait to spend another 20 bucks every month on GSL, so fun to root for my favs and watch!
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On December 11 2010 16:03 Defacer wrote:
So,
If Huk wanted to qualify he would have to get to the top of the Korean Ladder and take out a Code A player
OR
Win MLG again.
That sounds insanely hard.
Didn't Huk get into the top 4 last MLG? He's still the highest ranked player on the MLG elo as far as I know. I think Huk is safe for a foreigner spot at this point. I'm guessing they will try to actually fill those foreigner spots, so it's more an issue of "who are the top 4 foreign players in Korea at the time needed" than "Who are the best 4 players in the world outside of Korea, only THEY may compete!"
If they're in Korea they take priority, but if they are not, then the next best player who is in Korea would get the slot I would guess. So having a great world ranking would up your chances of having a shot at the Foreigner slots, but, for example, Torch could probably get into one of those slots if TL, EG, root, or digitas doesn't send a new bumper crop of top tier players to get in front of him in line.
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On December 13 2010 06:21 ChThoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 03:37 shannn wrote:
Bo1 is probably the best and realistic choice. Reason is simply because there is only 1 studio as far as we know and that is the current GSL studio which is airing the GSL Open seasons.
GSL with so many tournaments wants to be on schedule and having more games means more airing time but also means longer tournament which could delay the schedule that they've planned for 2011.
People need to realise there is also an A league which means even more matches. A tournament with just single elimination of 64 players was already a total of 63 matches.
The GSL S league has 2 group stages and then a single elimination tournament. That in itself will take quite some time to finish. And then the GSL has to wrap the A league too. Bo3 in group stages would simply be too much as it already is.
Unless the A league is not going to be covered by the GSL which I doubt then Bo3 could be set in the group stage. Imagine Tastosis covering the A league and S league. They'd be doing it non stop 10+ hours every day. Too much workload which I hope they don't get for their health. Anything BO1 is a bad idea. I don't care what the implication is. There aren't 12 seasons of S and A league, though, so it shouldn't be THAT much of a workload. At least it won't be like GSL 1-3 RO64 every day.
No there aren't 12 seasons of S and A league but there is a major tournament each month which comes down to 12 tournaments which is similar to the GSL Opens we have now. If you count the A league that's 17 tournaments in just 1 year. Now tell me if you want the players play more games ? They're running on a tight schedule and you cannot expect players and staff to work over 10 hours a day every work day + some weekends (finals probably) for the whole year.
And this seems to be the old OSL format which I don't know much about. But the bo1 group stage is still in effect nowadays in the OSL. If it's been like that for years so it should be sufficient as this format has already proven for BW which is not the same game yes but the format worked which is why I don't see a problem with using it in this new game.
On December 13 2010 07:06 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 03:37 shannn wrote:
Bo1 is probably the best and realistic choice. Reason is simply because there is only 1 studio as far as we know and that is the current GSL studio which is airing the GSL Open seasons.
GSL with so many tournaments wants to be on schedule and having more games means more airing time but also means longer tournament which could delay the schedule that they've planned for 2011.
People need to realise there is also an A league which means even more matches. A tournament with just single elimination of 64 players was already a total of 63 matches.
The GSL S league has 2 group stages and then a single elimination tournament. That in itself will take quite some time to finish. And then the GSL has to wrap the A league too. Bo3 in group stages would simply be too much as it already is.
Unless the A league is not going to be covered by the GSL which I doubt then Bo3 could be set in the group stage. Imagine Tastosis covering the A league and S league. They'd be doing it non stop 10+ hours every day. Too much workload which I hope they don't get for their health. I'm sorry to disagree with you but BO1 is never the better option. GSL is the premier league in the Starcraft 2 scene; relying on best of 1 games is the worst possible choice to ensure the best players advance. Yes, there are time considerations, yes they want everything to run on schedule - but yes you are the number 1 tournament for sc2 in the world which maintains a $87k per month winners prize and is sponsored by sony ericsson and includes Blizzard involvement. BO3 - Make It Happen! Starcraft 2 is currently at the point in time where any player can take any game off anyone at any point in time. The game is to young to have established personalities within the scene that will guarantee that a BO1 won't result in some scrub advancing. As much as anyone might like Action Jesus - 6 pooling your way through one of the biggest European tournaments is pretty lame. Just my thoughts.
How is Bo1 never the better option ? I admit that it isn't the best format for any tournament but with many major tournaments next year (12) coming up then Bo3 is not going to help at all with the schedule. Bo1 is just the right option for the group stages. It's not like we're going to see bo1 through the finals.
As I said above if this format was taken over of the old OSL format then it should be sufficient as it has proven already over the years. The base BW has layed down is the only thing you could use as a start and adjust over the months/years if needed. If you cheese in the groupstage and the groupstage after that you're still going to play a Bo3/Bo5/Bo7 in the single elimination afterwards.
There will be cases of players who'll cheese their way into the next groupstage (like ActionJesus did on DreamHack).
If cheesing was the best strategy then we'd see every progamer cheesing in a Bo1. If there is something like the scv/marine all-in which is hard if not impossible to stop then it should be fixed.
Sc2 is still new and you are right that any player could take any game of anyone. But isn't that more exciting? If let's say Fruitdealer or NesTea lost a bo1 due to cheese or just a regular game in the group stage then they have to win their next 2 games. You can bet they're going to do everything they can to win those games which means every game counts even more important than in a Bo3.
Sc2 is new so we don't know who the best players are. What we do know is which players are consistent or just flavour of the month. These past 3 GSL Open has proven that now.
With a single elimination bracket and group stages we're going to see who truly are the better players of the qualified S code players and with the passing of several tournaments then you'd be able to decide who truly is the best player of the scene. No player has established anything in sc2 because like you said it's new. We only have fan favourites. If they truly are the best then they should win regardless if the game is new and strategies are constantly evolving.
TL;DR
It takes time for people to get established in the scene. The game is new so you won't have any player that will stand out of the rest else he'd have won every tournament there is.
Bo1 for the groupstages will make it more exciting and more important. Players will have to make sure they do their very best to win each game.
It won't be like oh it's that map so I'll just do some stupid all-in in a BoX. Bo1 ensures players to use their strategies cautiously on every map. Cheesing is a big risk and with 87k (maybe more in future gsl?) then the pressure is going to increase and cheesing might even be harder to pull off. I would applaud anyone who'd have the nerves to cheese in their last deciding game if they would stay in the tournament or not.
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On December 13 2010 07:06 bkrow wrote:
I'm sorry to disagree with you but BO1 is never the better option. GSL is the premier league in the Starcraft 2 scene; relying on best of 1 games is the worst possible choice to ensure the best players advance. Yes, there are time considerations, yes they want everything to run on schedule - but yes you are the number 1 tournament for sc2 in the world which maintains a $87k per month winners prize and is sponsored by sony ericsson and includes Blizzard involvement. BO3 - Make It Happen!
Which set will be best of 1? Certainly not the tournament. CodeA group stages? CodeS group stages? They're group stages. Best of 1 doesn't allow scrubs to advance, it's just frustrating because it allows favorate players to be knocked out on bad luck. You still need to win more games then 7 other players. So you might lose a stupid game, but that doesn't knock you out of it either, the most consistent player, and therefore the best, should have the most wins, because he plays 7 games irrelevant of weather he loses his first game or stomps his first game. He just doesn't get to play the same guy more than once unless they both advance to the next stage. Group stages of 8 players is pretty big.
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sounds like quite a confusing system, im sure it will be easier to understand once it actually gets put into motion. but thanks for the write up explaining it.
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Hmmm, another question. You get kicked out of Code A through losing to the invite slot players from the top of the ladder and other Korean tournies? A code S player can't get kicked out of GSL all in 1 season, can they? They must lose their Code S one season, then lose their Code A the next?
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On December 13 2010 07:52 SwiftSpear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 07:06 bkrow wrote:
I'm sorry to disagree with you but BO1 is never the better option. GSL is the premier league in the Starcraft 2 scene; relying on best of 1 games is the worst possible choice to ensure the best players advance. Yes, there are time considerations, yes they want everything to run on schedule - but yes you are the number 1 tournament for sc2 in the world which maintains a $87k per month winners prize and is sponsored by sony ericsson and includes Blizzard involvement. BO3 - Make It Happen! Which set will be best of 1? Certainly not the tournament. CodeA group stages? CodeS group stages? They're group stages. Best of 1 doesn't allow scrubs to advance, it's just frustrating because it allows favorate players to be knocked out on bad luck. You still need to win more games then 7 other players. So you might lose a stupid game, but that doesn't knock you out of it either, the most consistent player, and therefore the best, should have the most wins, because he plays 7 games irrelevant of weather he loses his first game or stomps his first game. He just doesn't get to play the same guy more than once unless they both advance to the next stage. Group stages of 8 players is pretty big.
It's groups of 4 with 2 group stages. This would eliminate a bad player more likely and reward a consistent player.
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Looks very nice to me!
The rotation between Code A and Code S won't be that low actually, each top8 Code A player will have two chances to win Code S, first playing against 3rd Code S from the group, then against 4th Code S. It means, that probably 5-6 Code A players will advance to Code S each season! That's already nice ciculation.
As to foreigners. I think it is great idea, that they provide those spots. I think international tournaments have really good level of competition and it's clear that top international progamers can compete with succes with Koreans in GSL. Plus it's just so much entertaining to see them there! That's actually one of main reasons why I eager to watch GSL!
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Im so lost reading all that. I need pictures for comprehension please =(
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Glad we can finally stop with all the speculation and misinformation that's been thrown around recently.
I would've liked to see a 64 player Code A tournament and 16 Code S spots up for grabs in order to give more players the opportunity to participate. The system is rather confusing at first read, but once you understand the "up and down" matches, it seems pretty fair and makes getting 3rd place in your group rather than 4th very important as it means 1 less chance at retaining Code S.
The 4 spots for foreign players is rather awkward. It's a nice idea as it guarantees a good amount of foreign involvement in GSL, but how they decide on which 4 players will get those spots may cause some debate. It may become a bigger issue as more foreigners go to Korea and whether they deserve those spots over players who do well in foreign tournaments. It would be best if they established some kind of system, such as inviting the winners of the top tournaments that occur before GSL (MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, etc.), and filling the rest with the top foreigners on the KR ladder. This way, players know exactly what they have to do to earn one of these spots. Of course, then you get into what is considered to be the top tournaments and whether ladder is a good representation of skill.
On the other hand, it may encourage players who might not consider going to Korea an opportunity to go and play there. I imagine it's tough to want to go to Korea to prove yourself, but have to rely so much on the preliminaries, which can be a crap shoot, to actually participate in the tournament. But, if you have an invitation to immediately enter the tournament, who wouldn't jump at that opportunity?
I think it might be best to just leave it to the open qualifiers and trust that foreigners are skilled enough to make it through the preliminaries. I think they could find other ways to encourage foreign participation.
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Very intelligent and very good relegation system. I am impressed.
Someone has put a lot of thought into this which makes me believe we will see very professionally run sc2 tournaments in the future.
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On December 13 2010 01:16 Azzur wrote:
This is the best explanation of the system so far. I actually like the GSL system very much, and I think it's going to provide a lot of exciting starcraft. I especially like how the 3rd placed player in the group is given an advantage over the 4th placed player in the code-S determination matches.
The current system means at most 8 players will move up to Code S, which may be a little low for some ppl. For me, I would've preferred if 16 players were given the opportunity to move up. My preferred system would be to expand code-A to 64 players are then:
- 3rd place code-S vs top-8 code A -> Winner to code-S (1)
- Loser of (1) vs 4th place code-S vs top-16 code-A -> Winner to code-S
But this is no big deal for me, the current system is almost close to perfect.
Another thing that may happen is that the code-A tournament mirrors that of the code-S one. The players get split into 8 groups of 4 and play a round-robin. The top-2 then advances while the bottom 2 will lose the code-A.
I also like the 4 reserved foreigner spots. This is because it's very hard financially for a foreigner to come to korea to compete. I think it'll be a good idea if GOM announces which tournaments would give these reserved spots.
Pending success of the first several tournaments using this system, almost certainly a system will be put in place to expand things to a wider group.
Especially as competition in other Korean companies rise to the occasion. Gom will have more incentive to cast out a bigger pool of "claimed" players.
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This post would benefit from a graphical representation greatly.
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This sounds great, looks a lot like the way tournaments are held in sports in Europe. Even though it sounds a bit complicated, I'm sure that in a couple of months we're all very familiar with this system. This is great news for Starcraft!
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A graphical representation exists at the bottom of page 8 and top of page 9 (unless its a different post you are discussing, in which case sorry)
I think the system looks well though out. The foreigner thing, as long as it is handled well, could do great things to get more foreigners watching and hence up the revenue and thus the games potential longevity.
It only becomes an issue if the foreigners invited are defeated easily all the time, which I do not see happening tbh.
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So, is there a list of S-class players yet?
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This is fascinating and introduces a few new things to the esports scene. Many of these things have been used before, but the way they're combined produces an intriguing advancement system. I'm very pleasantly surprised!
EDIT: Reading more pages now and... what's this about best-of-1? bo1 is the worst thing to incorporate in any tournament and needs to be treated like the plaguu.
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EPT
