SC2-stars to DH Two Korean progamers will attend DreamHack Winter 2010. Team Liquid-player HuK from Canada, oGs TOP and oGs inCa from South Korea will participate in DreamHack SteelSeries LAN-tournament (DSL) the 25th to 28th of november.
This is not major, this is magic for all eSports fans in Sweden. DreamHack is proud to welcome two korean StarCraft II-players to the event and to participate in the DreamHack SteelSeries LAN-tournament with 205 000 SEK in the total prize purse, including 100 000 SEK to the winner only.
DreamHack will invite Canadian Protoss-player HuK to replace IdrA and korean S-player oGs Inca to replace russian BRAT_OK in the main tournament. His team mate TOP will also join inCa on his trip to Sweden and will participate in the tournament, but needs to play the BYOC-qualifications first in order to qualify for the 32-player main tournament.
i honestly did NOT see that comming(well HuK i did caus he already told us ), looks like Dreamhack is getting more and more insane
such a shame though with Brat_OK, i saw IdrA not comming because of GSL, but that Brat_OK once again't can't go(just like in IEM cologne) is just fucking lame T_T poor guy
Edit: Regarding why Brat_OK can't go:
On November 23 2010 06:26 razy wrote: Brat_OK couldn't get Sweden visa this time cause of his problems w/ 2 German and some Finnish ones in the past. His manager said that he won't be able to get out to Europe for some time because of that.
Wow really looking forward to seeing how they compete in a mostly foreign tournament. It is always the argument in East vs West for SC2 that foreigners are set up to fail in the GSL so it'll be nice to see how Top and Inca perform now that the tables are turned. Hype.
Fantastic news! I kinda had a feeling a few oGs guys would come given HuK's cryptic statement earlier. Great to hear it's Top and Inca, they're awesome!
I wouldn't be surprised to see Koreans in MLG next year(if prize pool goes up, and the schedules don't conflict)... this is pretty awesome to see OGS extend themselves to foreign tournaments
sucks Idra couldn't work out a way to attend with GSL guys, but I think this is cool too.
Also, go Huk!
I hope this continues on in the future, and we have a stronger foreign presence in Korea(doing well this GSL!), and a stronger Korea presence in the foreign scene.
As a bit off-topic to the discussion but what does BYOC qualifier mean? I thought it meant "Bring Your Own Computer" sort of like BYOB but it seems like they prefix the qualifier with BYOC all the time.
On November 23 2010 05:38 Tenks wrote: As a bit off-topic to the discussion but what does BYOC qualifier mean? I thought it meant "Bring Your Own Computer" sort of like BYOB but it seems like they prefix the qualifier with BYOC all the time.
it's not played on tournament computer hence you have to bring your own
That would be awesome. Finally Koreans playing on European scene! I really wonder how it will turn out. And what about Nada? He also got eliminated from GSL.
It's great to see Koreans coming and participating in the international scene and hopefully such participation will bridge the gap between Korean and international scenes more (the recent surge of foreigners trying out for GSL's has been quite good though).
Also, it will be interesting to see how the high-level Koreans perform in a bracket which can be thought of as an inverse to GSL where we have few foreigners trying to battle through large number of Koreans(which is often thought of one of the reasons why foreigners have been unable to crack top 8).
Agreed that good/bad performance of ToP/Inca will just be one data-point and not statistically relevant on deciding the Koreans vs foreigners question, nevertheless it will interesting to see whether they dominate Dreamhack or not.
On November 23 2010 05:43 rift wrote: If Korean players start regularly attending foreigner events in any great number it will enhance the scene.
fixed your post.
Nice fix. It won't kill the scene, in fact it will encourage our players to get much better so that Koreans don't just come to our tournament and take our money.
On November 23 2010 05:43 rift wrote: If Korean players start regularly attending foreigner events in any great number it will kill the scene.
I doubt many Koreans outside of oGs will bother though. oGs has a close relationship with one of the most important Western teams so the fact that they're joining them abroad isn't too surprising.
On November 23 2010 05:43 rift wrote: If Korean players start regularly attending foreigner events in any great number it will enhance the scene.
fixed your post.
Nice fix. It won't kill the scene, in fact it will encourage our players to get much better so that Koreans don't just come to our tournament and take our money.
Yeah. This is not SC1. And even if they had that kind of lead it would still be nothing but amazing
On November 23 2010 05:43 rift wrote: If Korean players start regularly attending foreigner events in any great number it will kill the scene.
Not at all, it'll be a perfect opportunity to showcase foreigners' skills against Koreans. I think it'll be really cool if SC2 has a global ranking, based on tournament results, just like in tennis. have international events, some local ones and some bigger ones like the Grand Slams.
Then have a tournament with the top 8 or 16 players at the end of the year (not based on ladder points but point earned from tournament results)
Traditionally it's always been very difficult for Russian nationals to obtain VISAs. We've seen this happen many times with other eSports game. Not sure this is the same type of issues, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Such a bummer!
Man I'm so happy to see more foreigners in Korea and more Koreans participating in non-Korean events. I think the more this happens the faster SC2 will grow as an esport.
On November 23 2010 06:07 djWHEAT wrote: Traditionally it's always been very difficult for Russian nationals to obtain VISAs. We've seen this happen many times with other eSports game. Not sure this is the same type of issues, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Such a bummer!
On November 23 2010 06:07 djWHEAT wrote: Traditionally it's always been very difficult for Russian nationals to obtain VISAs. We've seen this happen many times with other eSports game. Not sure this is the same type of issues, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Such a bummer!
i drank with a Russian guy last friday, and ironicly we talked about how he was able to study in Denmark and travel there to be with his GF from here, to quote him: "its a fucking nightmare to get a VISA"
well 5 or 6 foreigners vs all of korea went alright, i think the same will happen at dreamhack, the koreans will eventually get beat because they're outnumbered
egh >_< i kept repeating this in every thread on tl.net where such question is raised: Brat_OK couldn't get Sweden visa this time cause of his problems w/ 2 German and some Finnish ones in the past. His manager said that he won't be able to get out to Europe for some time because of that.
Anyways, i sincerely hope to see true korean level on this tournament compared to other guys. Don't think it'd be something special though
On November 23 2010 06:26 razy wrote: egh >_< i kept repeating this in every thread on tl.net where such question is raised: Brat_OK couldn't get Sweden visa this time cause of his problems w/ 2 German and some Finnish ones in the past. His manager said that he won't be able to get out to Europe for some time because of that.
added to the OP for people who are confused about the situation thanks!
On November 23 2010 06:26 razy wrote: egh >_< i kept repeating this in every thread on tl.net where such question is raised: Brat_OK couldn't get Sweden visa this time cause of his problems w/ 2 German and some Finnish ones in the past. His manager said that he won't be able to get out to Europe for some time because of that.
added to the OP for people who are confused about the situation thanks!
np. Actually i rewrote what Bruce said on one of the russian streams. Can't say that if i remembered everything 100% but overall reason is definitely cause of denial history.
On November 23 2010 06:34 Xeris wrote: it would be funny if they lost in qualifiers
Considering most of the qualifiers will probably be a bunch of no names.. I doubt it. Then again, everyone can lose to a cheese, considering the nature of single elimination.
Wouldn't be funny, it's definitely probable. Yes, they are both A-class (TOP is S-class) pros, but that doesn't mean they are immune to cheese. Its plausible that one of them will get knocked out in qualis, especially if they are not running bo3's.
That's so sick. I hope InCa tears it up. This is just one step closer to more Koreans going to non-Korean tournaments, that's a great thing for e-sports
On November 23 2010 06:43 vyyye wrote:Considering most of the qualifiers will probably be a bunch of no names.. I doubt it. Then again, everyone can lose to a cheese.
TOP, KiLLeR (yes, THAT KiLLeR), Magulina, Jimpo, Nbs, Fuzer, Darkforce, Naniwa, Merz. Thats just the names I saw after a glance at the BYOC entry list. Drama about someone not making it into the tournament will happen.
I'm pretty disappointed in the player list honestly. There are a ton of people they could have invited to play but did not for whatever reason, just countless Korean and NA players that just seemed left out.
The foreigners going to Dreamhack better not let inca/top win, even if they are amazing players. Genius already took blizzcon, don't let them take this one too!!
On November 23 2010 07:06 On_Slaught wrote: Idra isn't going? News to me.
The foreigners going to Dreamhack better not let inca/top win, even if they are amazing players. Genius already took blizzcon, don't let them take this one too!!
Well he qualified for GSL3 so it would be pretty hard to do both and considering his S-Class status is on the line the decision was probably fairly easy.
Sweet :D Sad to hear about brat_ok and idra is nothing to be sad about there's more money and gsl so ofc he's gonna be there ah well looking forward to seeing inca in action :p
On November 23 2010 07:06 On_Slaught wrote: Idra isn't going? News to me.
The foreigners going to Dreamhack better not let inca/top win, even if they are amazing players. Genius already took blizzcon, don't let them take this one too!!
Well he qualified for GSL3 so it would be pretty hard to do both and considering his S-Class status is on the line the decision was probably fairly easy.
It isn't. IdrA is already guaranteed to make S class just by qualifying for ro64.
On November 23 2010 06:34 Xeris wrote: it would be funny if they lost in qualifiers
yes it would be. In fact, it would be awesome.
I mean, i can see how you can say that since in a sense it would promote the idea that foreigners can compete and beat koreans, but at the same time i'm hoping it doesn't happen because it would only promote isolationism in one of the most isolated e-sports there is. if we want a truly global sc2 scene, i think it's important that the koreans have a good experience.
On November 23 2010 07:03 Sernen wrote: I'm pretty disappointed in the player list honestly. There are a ton of people they could have invited to play but did not for whatever reason, just countless Korean and NA players that just seemed left out.
You do know that the invite list is very limited right?....... And that a lot of players are busy with GSL and such?
The player that makes least sense on the invite list is probably MaDFroG but he's still a top Swedish player and might gain some publicity by his status as WC3 legend.
Wow this is certainly nice news. IdrA not going I think is a given because of GSL. And poor Brat_OK being owned because of visa again :[. He's such a great player. But I guess with oGsTOP and oGsInca going, it certainly would still make DreamHack a worthy event to follow.
Oh fuck yeah this is awesome. Now we need some koreans to fly out to MLG and we got ourselves some sick international competition. Tester should go to dreamhack
I hope the Liquid-oGs guys do well, if this is a good experience for them it will only strengthen the relationship between the two scenes, which is in turn good for everyone. I can't stress enough how cool what team liquid and oGs are doing is, the BW scenes became so isolated from one another after awhile. Even if the Koreans surpass the foreign scene by leaps and bounds again, it will still be good to have a direct link to them for the few foreigners that might want to try their luck.
I really like the concept of thinking of the Koreans as foreigners for a change, also I think a lot of this needs to be attributed to spunky. He is trying to open all sorts of doors to make all of the scenes accessible to each other and sc2 will be better because of it.
note: the reference to spunky comes from watching the oGs-Liquid house tour with giantbomb which everyone should watch if they haven't already
Man this is awesome news. It only adds to the prestige and legitimacy of a tournament to have the oGs-liquid guys there. Props to TOP and inCa for being ballsy and going to europe to show their stuff. I hope this encourages other Korean teams to send a few people out to western events.
Dont like the comment about " them attending killing the scene " pretty close minded, just because you dont think you can compete with koreans doesnt mean the rest of us dont.
Also I think its good for the game as a whole, I dont care where the players from (UNLESS ITS CANADA YEAH LETS GO HOME TEAM) as long as there good and fun to watch. Cant wait for this also as I presume dreamhack will be easier to view the GSL (which is another pro to them playing over here!)
Cant wait this is gonna be good , lets go huky baby and or some swarm player!
Excellent! I hope that in addition to games, they'll have cameras on the floor, interviews, etc. And lots of euro-techno, of course (based on their website).
Pretty cool to see Koreans attending foreign events for a change, it's definately a good start. Doubt they'd do well tho , they aren't exactly your S-Class Korean players afterall. But hell it'll still be interesting to see how they fare in the foreign scene.
This should be interesting to see. As long as the skill gap doesn't widen any more, then this should be good for the scene. However, if the disparity grows too much (ex. all teams in Korea start 10+ hour per day training regiments) then this would be horrible for the foreign scene. Think of Brood War: the Koreans could afford to send no-namer low A teamers and B teamers that nobody has ever heard of and completely obliterate the competition.
Anyways, I'm hopeful that it won't ever reach that point. I hope that Top gets through so I can see him play some more, but single elimination is dangerous for any player so its very possible that he could be eliminated during qualifiers.
i am kindof surprised they didnt send ensnare. Showing by his perfermance he has done better than these two players. Maybe there is something else going on
On November 23 2010 10:49 GobIin wrote: i am kindof surprised they didnt send ensnare. Showing by his perfermance he has done better than these two players. Maybe there is something else going on
Haha, it's funny to see this news now because earlier today someone was arguing that it is better to be on Team Liquid than oGs because oGs players can't participate in foreign tournaments.
Regardless, this is great news, the more international exchanges the better I say. I hope their experience is going to be a pleasant first one of many!
On November 23 2010 11:14 Scodia wrote: I believe Inca is A at the moment, Top is S due to top 8 finish I think. Calling it now tho, Demuslim vs Inca and demuslim says " GL HF INCY <3"
:D
You have it reversed. Inca is Code S, Top has only ever been in GSL1 with a Ro16 losing to Fruit. He still will probably be S depending on the results of GSL3.
On November 23 2010 10:49 GobIin wrote: i am kindof surprised they didnt send ensnare. Showing by his perfermance he has done better than these two players. Maybe there is something else going on
I'm glad to see some Koreans going to foreign events. E-sports should be global. GSL has helped limit the spectator sport to Korea. Everyone should be competing where ever they please.
This will give many foreign players to prove to sponsors that they can compete to the level of Koreans who dominate the GSL currently. Not many of them are able to make the trip to the GSL to prove it there so this will give them ample chance.
Koreans....coming to the west for tournaments!? DREAMS DO COME TRUE!
EDIT: To make this post have SOME merith. If Koreans do come to compete the level of play in the west will increase, this can never be a bad thing. Don't forget that we also have pro-gaming teams now ( I think TL, EG...and Root? are on salaries). It will force our boys to play better, and they can do it.
On November 23 2010 09:40 HwangjaeTerran wrote: " Woot DreamHack! I've trained months for this and only this, time to roll some noobs face in. So who is my first opponent?" - oGsTOP - ..........
This is frakkin great. Too bad I couldn't make it, sucks to be on the wrong side of the Gulf of Bothnia.
Haha this post was brilliant, can see before me how some little nerds dream crumbles before his eyes.
nice nice, getting more interesting. Also got some balls to come over to play the BYOC tourney, good luck to him with that. Tyler is going, right? Hope to see 5 of Top 8 liquid/OGS again
On November 23 2010 17:25 shannn wrote: Am I reading it right that if TOP wins the qualifier he'll be placed in Huk's/Tarson's group?
Where did you find the info on which BYOC qualifer number the signed up players were placed in? I only saw empty brackets.
On the dreamhack site itself. Here is the link (Source).
I don't know how the qualifier spots are set up.
Ah I understand now how the qualifiers are. There are 8 more qualifiers for the tournament. Each winner of each qualifier will be seeded depending on which qualifier they won.
In this case I mistook #1 for rank 1 of qualifier but it is in fact winner of qualifier 1. So anyone who wins qualifier 1 will be placed into Tarson's and Huk's group if I'm not mistaken now.
At first I was a lil disappointed to hear that HuK would leave Korea and interrupt his training. But after reading the weekly and this thread im so hyped! Glad to see HuK's high goals and motivation and its gonna be a lot of fun seeing how the servers and levels of experience play against each other, and to go there with so many friends must be really fun, too!
On November 23 2010 06:34 Xeris wrote: it would be funny if they lost in qualifiers
Hah, I hope one of the oGs players wins the tournament, there would be so much fun raging going on :D It's really to bad about the VISA issue for brat_ok though, but its not like its the first time >_<
On November 23 2010 20:27 mKw wrote: Quick question about Dreamhack? do you have to have a ticket to go watch games and such? or can u just come and watch?
On November 23 2010 20:27 mKw wrote: Quick question about Dreamhack? do you have to have a ticket to go watch games and such? or can u just come and watch?
This just in: Stork will also be participating in Dreamhack! Protoss sweep the podium!
Seriously though, this is great, and the beginning of a more global StarCraft 2. As the scene around the world grows, Koreans will begin travelling for foreigner tournaments, not only the other way around.
It sure is a bummer that IdrA can't come. I thought i had heard that he had planned it out so he could compete in both the GSL and Dreamhack, that he would fly out to Sweden and be back for the next round in the GSL.
On November 23 2010 05:42 bokeevboke wrote: BratOK 3-0'd ret recently ----> Ret qualified for GSL -----> BratOK capable of beating koreans
If you remember Morrow went instead of him last time and ended up winning tournament.
keyword
ret "qualified" and i doubt that hes going far,in fact prob will lose in the first round if he already didnt. so your theory is a no go
I'm as much of a korean fanboy as the next guy, but this post is incredibly retarded and I assume that the poster is ignorant of Ret's history in BW. Stop dissing people if you dont know anything about them.
On November 23 2010 05:43 rift wrote: If Korean players start regularly attending foreigner events in any great number it will kill the scene.
absolutely not true. in fact homogenization of the regions would be incredibly beneficial. how is what your saying any different from foreigners showing up to korea will kill the scene.
On November 24 2010 00:32 Incanus wrote: This just in: Stork will also be participating in Dreamhack! Protoss sweep the podium!
Seriously though, this is great, and the beginning of a more global StarCraft 2. As the scene around the world grows, Koreans will begin travelling for foreigner tournaments, not only the other way around.
On November 23 2010 05:42 bokeevboke wrote: BratOK 3-0'd ret recently ----> Ret qualified for GSL -----> BratOK capable of beating koreans
If you remember Morrow went instead of him last time and ended up winning tournament.
keyword
ret "qualified" and i doubt that hes going far,in fact prob will lose in the first round if he already didnt. so your theory is a no go
dont feed the troll bratOK has been playing since february, ret has been playing for about 3 months? Hes getting better exponentially faster than anybody else and give ret about 3 more months and then we'll discuss results and who can/can't beat ret (i'm also positive ret is MUCH better than when he lost to bratok. and its not like anybody is saying "masq beat idra twice on ladder a long time ago... ----> masq is now the best foreigner") the transitive property can't be applied to any competitive rankings
On November 23 2010 05:43 rift wrote: If Korean players start regularly attending foreigner events in any great number it will kill the scene.
I don't think so. I honestly think if you had 50/50 Korean to Foreigner ratios in most tournies you'd only have a small Korean ratio of dominance. There are alot of really good westerners in SC2. we've got 4 guys in the GSL out of 5 who qualified, if they win 5 games in between them all they've performed better than the Korean pros on average. I'm pretty sure we'll get that. We're already up 1. A couple of our guys are even a legitimate threat to win it.
On November 23 2010 05:43 rift wrote: If Korean players start regularly attending foreigner events in any great number it will kill the scene.
I don't think so. I honestly think if you had 50/50 Korean to Foreigner ratios in most tournies you'd only have a small Korean ratio of dominance. There are alot of really good westerners in SC2. we've got 4 guys in the GSL out of 5 who qualified, if they win 5 games in between them all they've performed better than the Korean pros on average. I'm pretty sure we'll get that. We're already up 1. A couple of our guys are even a legitimate threat to win it.
Wouldn't actually be small, I think it would be like 80:20 korean:foreign wins.
On November 23 2010 05:42 bokeevboke wrote: BratOK 3-0'd ret recently ----> Ret qualified for GSL -----> BratOK capable of beating koreans
If you remember Morrow went instead of him last time and ended up winning tournament.
keyword
ret "qualified" and i doubt that hes going far,in fact prob will lose in the first round if he already didnt. so your theory is a no go
I'm as much of a korean fanboy as the next guy, but this post is incredibly retarded and I assume that the poster is ignorant of Ret's history in BW. Stop dissing people if you dont know anything about them.
Ret already thumped his opponent's butt in the first round of the GSL. Also, Ret has improved very quickly. He honestly hasn't been able to play much prior to the MLG Dallas. That said, pretty disappointed that BratOK can't make it and he's a great player.
On November 25 2010 04:17 Neverplay wrote: would be funny if a korean wins :D
Very unlikely, they are very good, but so are many of the other guys here. In this case, the two oGs members stand equal to many others at this event.
Very sad about Brat_OK, he is such a talented player.
And the Protoss players as talented as Inca at Dreamhack would be? Naniwa? Socke? Tyler? HuK? They're good players, but they'd still struggle to get round of 64 in GSL. Inca is an S class Korean, he just ate Goody alive even without scouting the proxy rax.
On November 24 2010 14:41 ShyRamen wrote: it's ridiculous that you need a visa to enter european countries as russian c'mon :/ poor bratOK
brat-ok couldnt enter sweeden because of other reasons than his citizenship, i think it was something connected to past problems
anyway it's not ridiculous, it's very normal to have visa outside the EU for any countries, granted that getting a visa is just filling out some paperwork if you're from a developed country
On November 25 2010 04:17 Neverplay wrote: would be funny if a korean wins :D
Very unlikely, they are very good, but so are many of the other guys here. In this case, the two oGs members stand equal to many others at this event.
Very sad about Brat_OK, he is such a talented player.
And the Protoss players as talented as Inca at Dreamhack would be? Naniwa? Socke? Tyler? HuK? They're good players, but they'd still struggle to get round of 64 in GSL. Inca is an S class Korean, he just ate Goody alive even without scouting the proxy rax.
So, did anybody do an interview with TOP and Inca? Would love to hear how they liked the atmosphere at a foreign tournament, the practice on EU-ladder, what they think about the different style, general level of skill and such
I was surprised to see a non-korean winner, to be really honest. But at the same time, this could also indicate the reason why these two didn't qualify for GSL.
Nevertheless, it's unlucky that they had to face each other. Wanted to see Inca vs others, especially.
As for the DreamHack players being on the level of the best players. Well, it is very difficult to argue that without head to head competition and matches. Either top koreans have to attend, or these ones have to go and participate in GSL. My personal feeling is that, they are still fairly behind.
On November 29 2010 02:29 Xxavi wrote: As for the DreamHack players being on the level of the best players. Well, it is very difficult to argue that without head to head competition and matches. Either top koreans have to attend, or these ones have to go and participate in GSL. My personal feeling is that, they are still fairly behind.
Are you sure about that? I don't like SC2 and usually just watch matches out of boredom when no BW is on but let me tell you this: Grand Final of Dreamhack between Mana and Naama has topped everything I've ever seen in SC2 (and I've seen everything there was from GSL for example). Game 3 and 4 had me on my toes, heart pounding, almost crying from the sheer awesomeness pouring at me from the screen...
They are not behind, just Korea is too far for most of them to go there.
On November 29 2010 02:29 Xxavi wrote: As for the DreamHack players being on the level of the best players. Well, it is very difficult to argue that without head to head competition and matches. Either top koreans have to attend, or these ones have to go and participate in GSL. My personal feeling is that, they are still fairly behind.
Are you sure about that? I don't like SC2 and usually just watch matches out of boredom when no BW is on but let me tell you this: Grand Final of Dreamhack between Mana and Naama has topped everything I've ever seen in SC2 (and I've seen everything there was from GSL for example). Game 3 and 4 had me on my toes, heart pounding, almost crying from the sheer awesomeness pouring at me from the screen...
They are not behind, just Korea is too far for most of them to go there.
from an entertainment point game 3 and 4 were definitely awesome. From a skill point i've seen far far better -.-
On November 29 2010 02:29 Xxavi wrote: As for the DreamHack players being on the level of the best players. Well, it is very difficult to argue that without head to head competition and matches. Either top koreans have to attend, or these ones have to go and participate in GSL. My personal feeling is that, they are still fairly behind.
Are you sure about that? I don't like SC2 and usually just watch matches out of boredom when no BW is on but let me tell you this: Grand Final of Dreamhack between Mana and Naama has topped everything I've ever seen in SC2 (and I've seen everything there was from GSL for example). Game 3 and 4 had me on my toes, heart pounding, almost crying from the sheer awesomeness pouring at me from the screen...
They are not behind, just Korea is too far for most of them to go there.
See, they are behind in key moments. I watched Mana's games (isn't he the one that is P?), the protoss player's game very closely.
What I realized from these matches, and not only his, but also some of the other matches is that, in GSL, 9/10 times they won't let protoss live until he gets a huge army. They will be harassed so much or they will be behind Zerg macro so much that, they won't have the same scary army. In this tournament, that guy had a big army time after time.
In GSL, Terrans do harass and timing pushes to stop protoss early on. Zerg expand everywhere, and then start denying protoss expansion. I didn't see that in here. I can literally count 1-2 games where I saw Genius or Tester get big army. They were rushed or cheesed or all-inn'd literally every freaking round. Or had to survive timing pushes. The only one, in fact, that I can remember Tester with a big army is a game against Nada (1st game), and that's only because Nada's timing push failed, and later, his contain failed. They know the strength of protoss. In Dreamhack, it seems players know this, but have absolutely no clue how to deal with it.
As for the matches, yes, they were indeed more entertaining than some GSL matches. But that's only because players let each other play long macro games. In GSL, it's all about timing pushes, which many in these tournament cannot execute as well, I felt. Entertaining to watch, but definitely lower level, IMO.
There is obviously no large skill gap between top players in America, Europe and Korea. We've had quite a few torunaments pitting korea against the rest of the world. The recent ones are DreamHack and GSL, others are: Razer King of the Beta, Altitude TL Invitational, 17173 Starcraft 2 World Cup and Global Gamers SC2 Invitational Qualifiers. Although the koreans did suprisingly bad in GGI, it should be noted that lag could be a contributing factor.
There is admittedly a higher density of top players in Korea compared to Europe and the US in turn. Now Korea has established team practise houses while the western countries has not, better practise conditions will of course result in better play over the long run.
Im not by anymeans a good player or anything, but in the dreamhack finals both players were at 3K minerals lots of times, dont see happening as much in GSL
On November 23 2010 19:04 TheAntZ wrote: Wow they are just gonna plow through everyone
It makes me giggle how ridiculously wrong I was :D
Yep. SUP KOREA?
I don't think it's time to say that until foreigners go and win GSL. What's the big deal if two Korean guys didn't place top in a non-Korean tournament? And the game hasn't even been out a year. I wouldn't get excited just yet... It's not like GSL winners and SC1 legends came over here and got smashed.
Im not by anymeans a good player or anything, but in the dreamhack finals both players were at 3K minerals lots of times, dont see happening as much in GSL
Actually I think that happens more than you'd think, it's just that a lot of GSL games haven't been going into the late game, which is when you start to stockpile minerals. At DreamHack though, as people have noted, a lot more games went into the late game.
For an example of a GSL game where someone stockpiled minerals, just look at July's latest games against AlivefOu. I recall at one point he had 6k. He could've used some of those to throw down extra hatches so he could stockpile larva but he didn't, and despite having such vast resources he never got upgrades, though that could be due to lack of gas, as I can't recall how much gas he had. Still, once you hit 200/200 there's not much to spend your money.
Im not by anymeans a good player or anything, but in the dreamhack finals both players were at 3K minerals lots of times, dont see happening as much in GSL
Actually I think that happens more than you'd think, it's just that a lot of GSL games haven't been going into the late game, which is when you start to stockpile minerals. At DreamHack though, as people have noted, a lot more games went into the late game.
For an example of a GSL game where someone stockpiled minerals, just look at July's latest games against AlivefOu. I recall at one point he had 6k. He could've used some of those to throw down extra hatches so he could stockpile larva but he didn't, and despite having such vast resources he never got upgrades, though that could be due to lack of gas, as I can't recall how much gas he had. Still, once you hit 200/200 there's not much to spend your money.
That's a pretty unfair example because like you said, July was already maxed, but on top of that, he was maxed for a very long time without having to replenish units due to the nature of the positioning dance that was going on in the middle. Situations like that are pretty rare in SC:BW just because of the unwieldy nature of 12max ctrl groups, but in SC2 players will stalemate for prolonged periods of time, plus July spent money on everything he could've possibly needed. He made upwards of 30 spinecrawlers, had enough macrohatches for essentially infinite larva, 4 bases, and broodlord tech.
There's nothing you can criticize about julys play, it was flawless. On the otherhand, I have seen macro slips from other players both in the GSL, and in european tournaments, under circumstances where the player wasn't maxed, or could have benefited from spending the money.
On November 29 2010 02:29 Xxavi wrote: As for the DreamHack players being on the level of the best players. Well, it is very difficult to argue that without head to head competition and matches. Either top koreans have to attend, or these ones have to go and participate in GSL. My personal feeling is that, they are still fairly behind.
Are you sure about that? I don't like SC2 and usually just watch matches out of boredom when no BW is on but let me tell you this: Grand Final of Dreamhack between Mana and Naama has topped everything I've ever seen in SC2 (and I've seen everything there was from GSL for example). Game 3 and 4 had me on my toes, heart pounding, almost crying from the sheer awesomeness pouring at me from the screen...
They are not behind, just Korea is too far for most of them to go there.
See, they are behind in key moments. I watched Mana's games (isn't he the one that is P?), the protoss player's game very closely.
What I realized from these matches, and not only his, but also some of the other matches is that, in GSL, 9/10 times they won't let protoss live until he gets a huge army. They will be harassed so much or they will be behind Zerg macro so much that, they won't have the same scary army. In this tournament, that guy had a big army time after time.
In GSL, Terrans do harass and timing pushes to stop protoss early on. Zerg expand everywhere, and then start denying protoss expansion. I didn't see that in here. I can literally count 1-2 games where I saw Genius or Tester get big army. They were rushed or cheesed or all-inn'd literally every freaking round. Or had to survive timing pushes. The only one, in fact, that I can remember Tester with a big army is a game against Nada (1st game), and that's only because Nada's timing push failed, and later, his contain failed. They know the strength of protoss. In Dreamhack, it seems players know this, but have absolutely no clue how to deal with it.
As for the matches, yes, they were indeed more entertaining than some GSL matches. But that's only because players let each other play long macro games. In GSL, it's all about timing pushes, which many in these tournament cannot execute as well, I felt. Entertaining to watch, but definitely lower level, IMO.
What I realized from watching all the GSL3 matches thus far and basically all the Dreamhack-matches is that the difference is not as much level as it is a difference of styles.
I see you have a prejudice that says korean > foreigner and you see things from a perspective where that already is true. But if SC is anything like you describe in your "In GSL"-parapgraph it would be just about the most one-dimensional and boring RTS in the history of the world. Thank God it's not.
If GSL was indeed a global competition and all the best players in the world competed it would definately not be 59 korean vs 5 foreigners. After smoothening out the odds a bit and also not give the koreans home field advantage every time we might even see a foreigner win it. Why not? There is no way of knowing without trying. SC2 is not SC1. There is no proven difference of level in SC2. There is only speculation.
oGsTop beat Polt.Prime in a tvt in GSL1, Naama and Fenix both beat oGsTop in tvt. Jinro is a foreigner so logically speaking how would it be impossible to reach for instance RO8 for a foreigner even in this GSL? GSL3? Naama himself stated in an interview @ DH he would have had no chance vs Demuslim. Also he got through the group stage with the help of a coin flip. Naama and Fenix have both proven they can beat a korean GSL-player, and they are not unique by any means, there are lots lots more players in the foreigner bag.
oGsTop also beat oGsInca who has both a ro8 and ro16 under his belt in GSL, neither of these are suddenly terrible player just because of 1 loss in GSL.
EPT
), looks like Dreamhack is getting more and more insane
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