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Korea (South)131 Posts
On October 24 2010 22:20 frucisky wrote:
Q. Are there any plans to buff terran in the next patch?
A. We are looking at PvT and High Templar's Psionic Storm. It's only been a week after patch, so we are still analyzing how it is affecting gameplay.
That's a funny Q and A. He asks about buffing terran and he replies about nerfing protoss :O
yeah... i have a feeling some of it was put out of context, because of how non sequitur some responses are..
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On October 24 2010 22:06 oZii wrote:
This is pretty good thanks.
There is no problem with Psionic Storm terran has the counter which is ghosts but for some reason they dont use that often.
I like when people think they know how to balance game better than Blizzard. Example:
Immortals beat roaches, therefore it's imba
Stalkers can blink, therefore it's imba
Marauders are too good, therefore it's imba
Ghosts can EMP HTS, therefore t's imba
That's not how it works
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Korea (South)131 Posts
On October 24 2010 22:11 Boundless wrote:
What makes me angry is that he says "There were a lot of strategies that Terrans could go before the patch. The reaper became problematic in team games, so we adjusted the balance with a focus on reapers. In the case of barracks before depot, there were a lot of games that ended before it was even scouted. It didn't happen very often on the pro level, but it was becoming a problem in lower tier play. The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments."
If your main focus is the PRO level, and you make adjustments based on LOW level data, then they will create new imbalances when they propagate up to the PRO level. Does anyone else see this huge glaring problem with their balance philosophy, or is it just me?
Honestly, if your input on the supply depot before barracks issue comes from random bronze league noobs playing 4v4's and saying "OMG LETS BUILD MASS VOIDRAYS LOLOLOL KTHXBAI", you're clearly going to get bad balance when professionals play your changes.
"The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments."
read the OP carefully.
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On October 24 2010 22:13 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 22:11 Boundless wrote:
What makes me angry is that he says "There were a lot of strategies that Terrans could go before the patch. The reaper became problematic in team games, so we adjusted the balance with a focus on reapers. In the case of barracks before depot, there were a lot of games that ended before it was even scouted. It didn't happen very often on the pro level, but it was becoming a problem in lower tier play. The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments."
If your main focus is the PRO level, and you make adjustments based on LOW level data, then they will create new imbalances when they propagate up to the PRO level. Does anyone else see this huge glaring problem with their balance philosophy, or is it just me?
Honestly, if your input on the supply depot before barracks issue comes from random bronze league noobs playing 4v4's and saying "OMG LETS BUILD MASS VOIDRAYS LOLOLOL KTHXBAI", you're clearly going to get bad balance when professionals play your changes. I have a feeling an order came from the top to do this, and even though David Kim did not like it, he was forced to go along with it.
That's very possible. I just think it's fundamentally wrong to implement balance changes based on the games of DERP HERP BANELING players when there are professionals playing your game for prizes of 100 000 000 KRW, which is about 87 000 USD.
To me, balance changes for bad players should be in a separate system. For example, if you are playing in the Bronze - Gold Leagues, maybe units have different statistics. Sure, you can argue consistency and implementation all you want, but at some point they're going to have to do this to balance the game at all levels of play. Some people are better, and thus require different balance.
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David Kim is the guy who made this game into a fairly balanced and interesting one. Good job man..
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Nice answers but I dont like the one were he said that they made it supply barracks just because noobs couldnt handle it in the lower levels. Thats just not the right way to do it. Kinda gives a huge advantage to those that are good at defending early barracks(They dont have to worry about it at all, while terran still has to worry about proxy gateways etc)
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On October 24 2010 22:11 Boundless wrote:
What makes me angry is that he says "There were a lot of strategies that Terrans could go before the patch. The reaper became problematic in team games, so we adjusted the balance with a focus on reapers. In the case of barracks before depot, there were a lot of games that ended before it was even scouted. It didn't happen very often on the pro level, but it was becoming a problem in lower tier play. The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments."
If your main focus is the PRO level, and you make adjustments based on LOW level data, then they will create new imbalances when they propagate up to the PRO level. Does anyone else see this huge glaring problem with their balance philosophy, or is it just me?
Honestly, if your input on the supply depot before barracks issue comes from random bronze league noobs playing 4v4's and saying "OMG LETS BUILD MASS VOIDRAYS LOLOLOL KTHXBAI", you're clearly going to get bad balance when professionals play your changes.
They have already said they balance the game first and foremost from top tier players. But if there is an issue in low level play, they need to look into it and possibly fix it because yes, low level tiers have still BOUGHT the game and Blizzard needs to satisfy ALL customers. The important thing is that they will not do anything that will directly imbalance the game for top tier players. They took out Barracks first builds to stop imbalances in the low level play, but at the same time, it doesn't severely affect top level play. In some ways, it helps balance as the mentioned, due to limiting the insane amount of Terran openings there are before the other races can scout them.
I don't think they should nerf High Templar anymore. It's already pretty nerfed. If they nerf it more, the whole mechanic of it will be lost. Even Dustin Browder said in a panel that all the races should have "overpowered" mechanics, that balance each other out. They should try to find some other way.
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Interesting, do they think psyonic storm is too strong or too weak..?
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Were tournament maps used as ladder maps in SC1? It seems a little awkward in practice to separate the two because a lot of pros still ladder a ton right now, and if there were separate tourny maps from laddder maps, then they would all be forced into custom games for any meaningful practice.
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On October 24 2010 22:25 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 22:06 oZii wrote:
This is pretty good thanks.
There is no problem with Psionic Storm terran has the counter which is ghosts but for some reason they dont use that often. I like when people think they know how to balance game better than Blizzard. Example: Immortals beat roaches, therefore it's imba Stalkers can blink, therefore it's imba Marauders are too good, therefore it's imba Ghosts can EMP HTS, therefore t's imba That's not how it works
I wasn't saying it was This beats that exactly. Im saying its a option and a underused one which many of the problems have come in the first place. Phoenix sux, Liquid Tyler lifts mineral lines oh phoenix are pretty good. I didn't say Ghosts beat HTS either because they can get fried by storm just like marines. Its a option and that has to be looked at also what options does the race have to stop this before going in and tinkering I know its not as simple as this beats that. Ignoring the fact that Ghosts with emp which has no costs to upgrade to get is kind of a bad way to look at it. Funny how you point out my post even though many ppl don't agree with them balancing for lower leagues or 2v2 and I said nothing about that at all. I also didnt say Ghosts are IMBA just that they have a counter to HTS. We aren't talking about units that go head to head because 1 ghosts beats 200 HT's in a straight up fight. Now thats IMBA lol
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Sounds about right. Especially about PvT issues.
Don't really understand how he downplayed the roach buff as if it was a minor thing. It was a huge (over the top IMO) buff.
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Korea (South)131 Posts
On October 24 2010 22:36 Tachion wrote:
Were tournament maps used as ladder maps in SC1? It seems a little awkward in practice to separate the two because a lot of pros still ladder a ton right now, and if there were separate tourny maps from laddder maps, then they would all be forced into custom games for any meaningful practice.
None of Blizzard SC1 maps were used in tournaments except for The Lost Temple, I'm pretty sure. If others ever were, it was before sc1 got big or weren't used very much. The tourneys happen on the ladder maps in SC2 because this time, they're actually good lolol. I agree with what you are saying though, and what with the announcements for the leagues above diamond, I'm fairly certain Blizzard will try and keep the pros on the ladder, which they'll probably do by continuing to release new and interesting ladder maps.
That's my take on it 
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On October 24 2010 22:31 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2010 22:11 Boundless wrote:
What makes me angry is that he says "There were a lot of strategies that Terrans could go before the patch. The reaper became problematic in team games, so we adjusted the balance with a focus on reapers. In the case of barracks before depot, there were a lot of games that ended before it was even scouted. It didn't happen very often on the pro level, but it was becoming a problem in lower tier play. The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments."
If your main focus is the PRO level, and you make adjustments based on LOW level data, then they will create new imbalances when they propagate up to the PRO level. Does anyone else see this huge glaring problem with their balance philosophy, or is it just me?
Honestly, if your input on the supply depot before barracks issue comes from random bronze league noobs playing 4v4's and saying "OMG LETS BUILD MASS VOIDRAYS LOLOLOL KTHXBAI", you're clearly going to get bad balance when professionals play your changes. They have already said they balance the game first and foremost from top tier players. But if there is an issue in low level play, they need to look into it and possibly fix it because yes, low level tiers have still BOUGHT the game and Blizzard needs to satisfy ALL customers. The important thing is that they will not do anything that will directly imbalance the game for top tier players. They took out Barracks first builds to stop imbalances in the low level play, but at the same time, it doesn't severely affect top level play. In some ways, it helps balance as the mentioned, due to limiting the insane amount of Terran openings there are before the other races can scout them. I don't think they should nerf High Templar anymore. It's already pretty nerfed. If they nerf it more, the whole mechanic of it will be lost. Even Dustin Browder said in a panel that all the races should have "overpowered" mechanics, that balance each other out. They should try to find some other way.
This is exactly the problem. Blizzard is making balance changes based on low level data and imposing the same restrictions on professionals. I have no problem with trying to make the game balanced at all levels, but if you are going to hit something with the nerf bat because bronze league noobs can't handle it, at least attempt to realize the effects this will have at the professional level. Imagine changing the offside rule in football to make amateur leagues more fun and exciting, but also making the Premiership play under the same rules. There would be riots in England.
I honestly believe that if you give it a year or so, there will be separate balance conditions for Korean pros. These separate leagues or ladders didn't exist in BW, because there wasn't an amateur market to make the development of such infrastructure profitable. However, SC2 is growing so rapidly and the professional scene is becoming so huge that I think having separate conditions would be very lucrative.
Now you can nerf Reapers all you want in the Bronze 2v2 ladder, without having to impose contrived and silly restrictions like Supply Depot before Barracks onto professional players.
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I don't get the Roach hate currently. To me they feel like marauders or stalkers now and not just a unit you get if you can be bothered. They increased the range. They have similar HP to stalkers and mauraders, smaller range, do a little more damage. Seems like a good balance between the 3 units.. mauraders can still kite them with concuss or stim.. and mauraders do + to armoured.
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Lol - another P nerf, really??? Screwing up the SC2 templars further is just so wrong...
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On October 24 2010 22:52 citi.zen wrote:
Lol - another P nerf, really??? Screwing up the SC2 templars further is just so wrong...
Oh come on, don't post like this is you aren't going to at least voice out WHY you think Protoss should have instant storms. Right now P can pretty much dial a storm and they're already so cost effective against bioball, a nerf is going to help terran a little in the lategame.
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I don't get the whining about lower level balance. You know, some people actually play the game, instead of just watching GSL. A strategy being removed is unfortunate and not desirable, but when team games are broken and borderline one-dimensional it might be a small price to pay.
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5th question from bottom that would be so lame on blizzards part terran have a awsome counter which is ghost's emp, emp has range 9+2 splash which outranges feedback/storm and has an added benefit of of instagibbing most toss units as it takes away 100 shield as well.
Ghost is a tier 1.5 unit while HT is tier 3 so wtf blizzard if u nerf storm u ought to nerf ghost/emp big time to. + to this ghosts to can insta emp with +ene upgrade researched but it seems that people seem to forget HTs need both storm+amulet researched and cant insta storm without amulet.
edit in addition to this the no of things that could be feedbacked was reduced in last patch by 2 so HTs have already recieved a nerf.
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On October 24 2010 22:11 Boundless wrote:
What makes me angry is that he says "There were a lot of strategies that Terrans could go before the patch. The reaper became problematic in team games, so we adjusted the balance with a focus on reapers. In the case of barracks before depot, there were a lot of games that ended before it was even scouted. It didn't happen very often on the pro level, but it was becoming a problem in lower tier play. The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments."
If your main focus is the PRO level, and you make adjustments based on LOW level data, then they will create new imbalances when they propagate up to the PRO level. Does anyone else see this huge glaring problem with their balance philosophy, or is it just me?
Honestly, if your input on the supply depot before barracks issue comes from random bronze league noobs playing 4v4's and saying "OMG LETS BUILD MASS VOIDRAYS LOLOLOL KTHXBAI", you're clearly going to get bad balance when professionals play your changes.
Speedlings/Speedreapers in 2v2 was broken to the point that any other race/unit combo was just not an option, it was horrible.
Regardless of what your design philosophy is - you can't just completely ignore the broken aspects of the game that doesn't align with your ultimate goal.
I'm sure they had many ways of nerfing the speedlings/reaper combo and this was the one the impacted the pro game the least.
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No mention of ZvT where Zerg plays too defensively and Terran cannot keep with Zerg macro ? Ugh .. alright.
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EPT
