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Whether you like cartoonish or not, imo this doesn't look as if you wouldn't play it or give it a try because of the graphics (unlike WC3 Remaster e. g...). Building design looks kinda solid imo despite not realistic, we'll see.
There are so many more things that go into a well rounded RTS, sound, unit-controlability, unit-types, race-design, resource-management, map-features etc. If they get all that stuff into a good package that feels well rounded like BW or WC3 then I assume many people would get over it if the graphics don't fit their taste 100%.
I'd hope that it doesn't end up too generic. BW and WC3 were so unique, but I wonder if anything can feel not generic today given how much's already out there(?).
And I hope they aim for something like complexity in simplicity: not too many different buildings/units/abilities. BW got it just right; WC3-TFT almost overloaded it for me personally; and I didn't want to keep playing SC2 after WoL because they shoved too much in it imo.
PS: Have they announced anything concerning a yes/no-decision on hero-units or WC-style-heroes yet?
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the art style is mildly cartoonish, but the wave of people falling over each other to compare it to fortnite and proclaim that they're very big mature boys who want everything to look like a decaying hellscape designed by the heath ledger joker is super funny
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On June 04 2023 20:02 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2023 05:05 Jae Zedong wrote:
Starcraft went 3D. Brood War from the 90s is still the most popular. Well, BW is much less popular than SC2 everywhere but Korea. If we exclude specifically Korean e-sport scene, SC2 trumps BW popularity easily. Which is expected from a game that was released 12 years later and has more user-friendly UI.
Yeah, it's a bit biased.
You have to define popularity first. Is popularity people actively playing day-to-day or is popularity something you try and beat?
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If the ratio of campaign vs 1v1 players is comparable to other RTS titles, then the look and feel of the game plays a major part in its success. SC1/BW and WC3 had pretty decent stories and a unique art style at the time of their creation. SC2 had a weak story but still a great art style and the cutscenes were way above most of the other games, especially in the same genre.
The Stormgate buildings look good enough, and I love that the art makes units stand out from the background and each other. Watching SC2 mirrors on some of the maps that include low saturation filters isn't enjoyable. The building rotation is one of the features I'd wish both Starcraft games would have.
But there is a huge audience that will look at the current design and trailer and decide within a second that this game doesn't look interesting. With just the hardcore 1v1 crowd, Stormgate probably cannot succeed. So, in the interest of the hardcore 1v1 crowd, we should raise the topic of the generic art style until the team comes up with something better. They have the financial backing to overhaul the art at this point.
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Northern Ireland25035 Posts
On June 04 2023 23:17 moonsjde wrote:
the art style is mildly cartoonish, but the wave of people falling over each other to compare it to fortnite and proclaim that they're very big mature boys who want everything to look like a decaying hellscape designed by the heath ledger joker is super funny
Games have a lot to learn from Fortnite to be fair. For whatever reason gamers, especially older ones are very sniffy about it, don’t really get why
Tons of new content and mechanics refreshed a lot. A big engine overhaul, more player custom maps and modes than I’ve seen since the days of WC3, and that’s only going to improve now Epic have integrated the Unreal editor into the mix.
Especially with the vibrant custom scene where you can take a break from Battle Royale, or hell some just play those kind of maps, which is the kind of thing I think any new RTS needs to nail. Even people who love queuing ladder 1v1 can get burned out, never mind newcomers who get stomped a few times and decide the game’s not for them if there’s not much else to do.
Sorry, bit off topic but it often irks me :p
On June 05 2023 04:27 Hildegard wrote:
If the ratio of campaign vs 1v1 players is comparable to other RTS titles, then the look and feel of the game plays a major part in its success. SC1/BW and WC3 had pretty decent stories and a unique art style at the time of their creation. SC2 had a weak story but still a great art style and the cutscenes were way above most of the other games, especially in the same genre.
The Stormgate buildings look good enough, and I love that the art makes units stand out from the background and each other. Watching SC2 mirrors on some of the maps that include low saturation filters isn't enjoyable. The building rotation is one of the features I'd wish both Starcraft games would have.
But there is a huge audience that will look at the current design and trailer and decide within a second that this game doesn't look interesting. With just the hardcore 1v1 crowd, Stormgate probably cannot succeed. So, in the interest of the hardcore 1v1 crowd, we should raise the topic of the generic art style until the team comes up with something better. They have the financial backing to overhaul the art at this point.
If the game is good enough, they will come. You’re getting your veterans almost as a lock, but yes branching out further will be the litmus test of this game.
Art styles will be naturally quite divisive, but I think truly great games can just punch through that. Can only speak for myself but I’ve definitely seen screens or video of a game and thought ‘nah’ only to hear word of mouth that the game is fantastic, gave it a shot and loved it.
Hell I’m still on the fence, I need to see how everything actually looks and blends in motion. My main RTS art design gripe is when units don’t pop out, aren’t immediately recognisable etc and if nothing else at least that doesn’t look to be the case here.
End of the day Frost Giant have two big things going for them.
1. Captive audience of people desperate for a new game of a certain style.
2. A relatively unique product on the market for anyone potentially interested in getting into RTS.
It’s a rough market for RTS in general, but on the flipside there’s a lot to be gained for the devs that do knock it out of the park.
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the art style is mildly cartoonish, but the wave of people falling over each other to compare it to fortnite and proclaim that they're very big mature boys who want everything to look like a decaying hellscape designed by the heath ledger joker is super funny
It's the alpha art, so can't really judge it too much.By the time they add in more detail it'll probably look pretty good i think.
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On June 04 2023 23:17 moonsjde wrote:
the art style is mildly cartoonish, but the wave of people falling over each other to compare it to fortnite and proclaim that they're very big mature boys who want everything to look like a decaying hellscape designed by the heath ledger joker is super funny
Yeah thats certainly a consideration. Making a game with art that appeals to us the old guard/fans, but we still need new players so it has to appeal to the young-uns too.
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On June 04 2023 22:30 Highgamer wrote:I hope that it doesn't end up too generic. BW and WC3 were so unique, but I wonder if anything can feel not generic today given how much's already out there(?).
The semi-realistic isometric style of BW is a visual identity that has been virtually unexplored for over 20 years. Releasing a game today following that tradition would be a very bold and fresh move compared to the current style of Stormgate, which has been seen countless times over the last years.
And it wouldn’t have to be a BW clone at all, which I agree would be pointless. Red Alert 2 had a somewhat similar style to BW but played wildly differently. Luring in the retrogamers with a few modern Quality of Life improvements would at least fill a niche in the market space.
As it stands I’m honestly not sure who is supposed to play Stormgate. I don’t think the SC2 crowd will be pulled by a game that looks extremely similar, just a bit more cartoonish. For that to happen, it would have to have absolutely insane revolutionary gameplay that isn’t just a gimmick.
I honestly don’t see it happening. It will have a minor hype period for a few weeks where a few streamers try it out, then it will be forgotten.
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Northern Ireland25035 Posts
On June 05 2023 17:39 Jae Zedong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2023 22:30 Highgamer wrote:I hope that it doesn't end up too generic. BW and WC3 were so unique, but I wonder if anything can feel not generic today given how much's already out there(?). The semi-realistic isometric style of BW is a visual identity that has been virtually unexplored for over 20 years. Releasing a game today following that tradition would be a very bold and fresh move compared to the current style of Stormgate, which has been seen countless times over the last years. And it wouldn’t have to be a BW clone at all, which I agree would be pointless. Red Alert 2 had a somewhat similar style to BW but played wildly differently. Luring in the retrogamers with a few modern Quality of Life improvements would at least fill a niche in the market space. As it stands I’m honestly not sure who is supposed to play Stormgate. I don’t think the SC2 crowd will be pulled by a game that looks extremely similar, just a bit more cartoonish. For that to happen, it would have to have absolutely insane revolutionary gameplay that isn’t just a gimmick. I honestly don’t see it happening. It will have a minor hype period for a few weeks where a few streamers try it out, then it will be forgotten.
There have been far more RTS games shooting for semi realistic art styles (big emphasis on the semi) than something more stylised and exaggerated/cartoonish over the years.
It’s like saying the next Zelda game should adopt a more realistic art style in order to make it stand out from other open world adventure games, unless I’m not picking you up right?
It’s got an obvious primary niche, BW/WC3/SC2 fans who are bored/burned out from playing the same games for 10/15/20 years. Or folks who want a new game to play with new things to figure out and new metas. And don’t underestimate the work a player say, only familiar with SC2 has to put in just to vaguely know the metas and intricacies of those games, all the while playing with mostly veterans of them. Quake Champions made some missteps as well, 100% but another reason it didn’t revitalise the arena shooter (along with RTS my favourite genre), is down to newcomers to the genre being boxed into competitive modes in a game most populated by a ton of absolute veterans.
Especially after Blizz botched Warcraft Reforged so badly, a game I know people who first came to RTS with SC2 and were eager for a fresh game to tackle, our Irish SC group had a bunch wanting to all give it a crack, then it launches without even a ladder and basic shit so people didn’t.
I don’t think it’s the only niche, there are others to reap but that’s the big obvious one. And I don’t think the wheel needs to be revolutionised, or for Stormgate to top those games on quality for it to successfully plough that furrow.
If the core gameplay is to pick an arbitrary value, 80% as good with a few innovations, plus some QoL changes and I think crucially, fun stuff to do that isn’t competitive and it’ll do fine
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Cartoonish can work if it stands out. Darkest Dungeon or Slay the Spire are examples from other genres. The character portraits and the trailer just look too generic and don't work for the younger audience or the older ones. Zerg, Protoss or Orcs and Trolls or the Scourge were archetypes. Human Resistance and Demons again sound generic.
Let's hope the gameplay shines.
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On June 05 2023 18:55 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 17:39 Jae Zedong wrote:On June 04 2023 22:30 Highgamer wrote:I hope that it doesn't end up too generic. BW and WC3 were so unique, but I wonder if anything can feel not generic today given how much's already out there(?). The semi-realistic isometric style of BW is a visual identity that has been virtually unexplored for over 20 years. Releasing a game today following that tradition would be a very bold and fresh move compared to the current style of Stormgate, which has been seen countless times over the last years. And it wouldn’t have to be a BW clone at all, which I agree would be pointless. Red Alert 2 had a somewhat similar style to BW but played wildly differently. Luring in the retrogamers with a few modern Quality of Life improvements would at least fill a niche in the market space. As it stands I’m honestly not sure who is supposed to play Stormgate. I don’t think the SC2 crowd will be pulled by a game that looks extremely similar, just a bit more cartoonish. For that to happen, it would have to have absolutely insane revolutionary gameplay that isn’t just a gimmick. I honestly don’t see it happening. It will have a minor hype period for a few weeks where a few streamers try it out, then it will be forgotten. There have been far more RTS games shooting for semi realistic art styles (big emphasis on the semi) than something more stylised and exaggerated/cartoonish over the years. It’s like saying the next Zelda game should adopt a more realistic art style in order to make it stand out from other open world adventure games, unless I’m not picking you up right? It’s got an obvious primary niche, BW/WC3/SC2 fans who are bored/burned out from playing the same games for 10/15/20 years. Or folks who want a new game to play with new things to figure out and new metas. And don’t underestimate the work a player say, only familiar with SC2 has to put in just to vaguely know the metas and intricacies of those games, all the while playing with mostly veterans of them. Quake Champions made some missteps as well, 100% but another reason it didn’t revitalise the arena shooter (along with RTS my favourite genre), is down to newcomers to the genre being boxed into competitive modes in a game most populated by a ton of absolute veterans. Especially after Blizz botched Warcraft Reforged so badly, a game I know people who first came to RTS with SC2 and were eager for a fresh game to tackle, our Irish SC group had a bunch wanting to all give it a crack, then it launches without even a ladder and basic shit so people didn’t. I don’t think it’s the only niche, there are others to reap but that’s the big obvious one. And I don’t think the wheel needs to be revolutionised, or for Stormgate to top those games on quality for it to successfully plough that furrow. If the core gameplay is to pick an arbitrary value, 80% as good with a few innovations, plus some QoL changes and I think crucially, fun stuff to do that isn’t competitive and it’ll do fine
You don’t have to re-invent the wheel, but you can’t just release a vaguely SC2 looking game with ”solid” fundamentals (because SC2 already has that) plus a few cute things like rotating buildings and call it a day. That game may have become a huge hit if SC2 didn’t exist but since it does, you need a fairly distinct USP if you want to enter the RTS space in earnest and not be forgotten in a few weeks once people move back to SC2/BW. The RTS genre is notoriously settled and the players would need darn good reasons to abandon their entrenched favorites.
And I don’t have a problem with the cartoony style at all, if anything I think it looks too much like SC2. But I do think a 2D isometric game that’s not a BW clone would have a better shot at standing out in today’s landscape.
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Northern Ireland25035 Posts
On June 05 2023 20:43 Jae Zedong wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 18:55 WombaT wrote:On June 05 2023 17:39 Jae Zedong wrote:On June 04 2023 22:30 Highgamer wrote:I hope that it doesn't end up too generic. BW and WC3 were so unique, but I wonder if anything can feel not generic today given how much's already out there(?). The semi-realistic isometric style of BW is a visual identity that has been virtually unexplored for over 20 years. Releasing a game today following that tradition would be a very bold and fresh move compared to the current style of Stormgate, which has been seen countless times over the last years. And it wouldn’t have to be a BW clone at all, which I agree would be pointless. Red Alert 2 had a somewhat similar style to BW but played wildly differently. Luring in the retrogamers with a few modern Quality of Life improvements would at least fill a niche in the market space. As it stands I’m honestly not sure who is supposed to play Stormgate. I don’t think the SC2 crowd will be pulled by a game that looks extremely similar, just a bit more cartoonish. For that to happen, it would have to have absolutely insane revolutionary gameplay that isn’t just a gimmick. I honestly don’t see it happening. It will have a minor hype period for a few weeks where a few streamers try it out, then it will be forgotten. There have been far more RTS games shooting for semi realistic art styles (big emphasis on the semi) than something more stylised and exaggerated/cartoonish over the years. It’s like saying the next Zelda game should adopt a more realistic art style in order to make it stand out from other open world adventure games, unless I’m not picking you up right? It’s got an obvious primary niche, BW/WC3/SC2 fans who are bored/burned out from playing the same games for 10/15/20 years. Or folks who want a new game to play with new things to figure out and new metas. And don’t underestimate the work a player say, only familiar with SC2 has to put in just to vaguely know the metas and intricacies of those games, all the while playing with mostly veterans of them. Quake Champions made some missteps as well, 100% but another reason it didn’t revitalise the arena shooter (along with RTS my favourite genre), is down to newcomers to the genre being boxed into competitive modes in a game most populated by a ton of absolute veterans. Especially after Blizz botched Warcraft Reforged so badly, a game I know people who first came to RTS with SC2 and were eager for a fresh game to tackle, our Irish SC group had a bunch wanting to all give it a crack, then it launches without even a ladder and basic shit so people didn’t. I don’t think it’s the only niche, there are others to reap but that’s the big obvious one. And I don’t think the wheel needs to be revolutionised, or for Stormgate to top those games on quality for it to successfully plough that furrow. If the core gameplay is to pick an arbitrary value, 80% as good with a few innovations, plus some QoL changes and I think crucially, fun stuff to do that isn’t competitive and it’ll do fine You don’t have to re-invent the wheel, but you can’t just release a vaguely SC2 looking game with ”solid” fundamentals (because SC2 already has that) plus a few cute things like rotating buildings and call it a day. That game may have become a huge hit if SC2 didn’t exist but since it does, you need a fairly distinct UPS if you want to enter the RTS space in earnest and not be forgotten in a few weeks once people move back to SC2/BW. The RTS genre is notoriously settled and the players would need darn good reasons to abandon their entrenched favorites. And I don’t have a problem with the cartoony style at all, if anything I think it looks too much like SC2. But I do think a 2D isometric game that’s not a BW clone would have a better shot at being unique in today’s landscape.
It would be pretty limiting at the same time.
You can’t really do a lot of things like cutscenes in the game engine, or funky camera angle shifts for mini-cutscenes without having a full 3D engine. It’ll also limit the potential for creative mods and maps as there’s innate limitations to building a game that’s 2D isometric.
Whatever UPS this game will have or end up lacking, it’ll be in the gameplay sphere. If that’s not there you’re not succeeding. People won’t drop a compelling game because it’s in 3D and that’s passé, neither will they persist in a game that isn’t because of the relative novelty of being a 2D isometric game
I’d still play a 2D isometric RTS nonetheless but it feels like the kind of project that would be trading mostly on nostalgia and an indie level of scope, not a game with ambitions of being the new player in a AAA space.
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On June 05 2023 21:25 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 20:43 Jae Zedong wrote:On June 05 2023 18:55 WombaT wrote:On June 05 2023 17:39 Jae Zedong wrote:On June 04 2023 22:30 Highgamer wrote:I hope that it doesn't end up too generic. BW and WC3 were so unique, but I wonder if anything can feel not generic today given how much's already out there(?). The semi-realistic isometric style of BW is a visual identity that has been virtually unexplored for over 20 years. Releasing a game today following that tradition would be a very bold and fresh move compared to the current style of Stormgate, which has been seen countless times over the last years. And it wouldn’t have to be a BW clone at all, which I agree would be pointless. Red Alert 2 had a somewhat similar style to BW but played wildly differently. Luring in the retrogamers with a few modern Quality of Life improvements would at least fill a niche in the market space. As it stands I’m honestly not sure who is supposed to play Stormgate. I don’t think the SC2 crowd will be pulled by a game that looks extremely similar, just a bit more cartoonish. For that to happen, it would have to have absolutely insane revolutionary gameplay that isn’t just a gimmick. I honestly don’t see it happening. It will have a minor hype period for a few weeks where a few streamers try it out, then it will be forgotten. There have been far more RTS games shooting for semi realistic art styles (big emphasis on the semi) than something more stylised and exaggerated/cartoonish over the years. It’s like saying the next Zelda game should adopt a more realistic art style in order to make it stand out from other open world adventure games, unless I’m not picking you up right? It’s got an obvious primary niche, BW/WC3/SC2 fans who are bored/burned out from playing the same games for 10/15/20 years. Or folks who want a new game to play with new things to figure out and new metas. And don’t underestimate the work a player say, only familiar with SC2 has to put in just to vaguely know the metas and intricacies of those games, all the while playing with mostly veterans of them. Quake Champions made some missteps as well, 100% but another reason it didn’t revitalise the arena shooter (along with RTS my favourite genre), is down to newcomers to the genre being boxed into competitive modes in a game most populated by a ton of absolute veterans. Especially after Blizz botched Warcraft Reforged so badly, a game I know people who first came to RTS with SC2 and were eager for a fresh game to tackle, our Irish SC group had a bunch wanting to all give it a crack, then it launches without even a ladder and basic shit so people didn’t. I don’t think it’s the only niche, there are others to reap but that’s the big obvious one. And I don’t think the wheel needs to be revolutionised, or for Stormgate to top those games on quality for it to successfully plough that furrow. If the core gameplay is to pick an arbitrary value, 80% as good with a few innovations, plus some QoL changes and I think crucially, fun stuff to do that isn’t competitive and it’ll do fine You don’t have to re-invent the wheel, but you can’t just release a vaguely SC2 looking game with ”solid” fundamentals (because SC2 already has that) plus a few cute things like rotating buildings and call it a day. That game may have become a huge hit if SC2 didn’t exist but since it does, you need a fairly distinct UPS if you want to enter the RTS space in earnest and not be forgotten in a few weeks once people move back to SC2/BW. The RTS genre is notoriously settled and the players would need darn good reasons to abandon their entrenched favorites. And I don’t have a problem with the cartoony style at all, if anything I think it looks too much like SC2. But I do think a 2D isometric game that’s not a BW clone would have a better shot at being unique in today’s landscape. It would be pretty limiting at the same time. You can’t really do a lot of things like cutscenes in the game engine, or funky camera angle shifts for mini-cutscenes without having a full 3D engine. It’ll also limit the potential for creative mods and maps as there’s innate limitations to building a game that’s 2D isometric. Whatever UPS this game will have or end up lacking, it’ll be in the gameplay sphere. If that’s not there you’re not succeeding. People won’t drop a compelling game because it’s in 3D and that’s passé, neither will they persist in a game that isn’t because of the relative novelty of being a 2D isometric game I’d still play a 2D isometric RTS nonetheless but it feels like the kind of project that would be trading mostly on nostalgia and an indie level of scope, not a game with ambitions of being the new player in a AAA space.
Yes, we are essentially in agreement then that the gameplay will be key. I just don’t think you can go too vanilla there considering the existing options. And nailing something ground breaking also seems unlikely.
Where we differ is that I think 2D isometric is an inherent advantage in these types of games (RTS and turn based) that puts 3D at a disadvantage from the start when it comes to sustained interest years after release. Countless 3D chess variants have been released, but people still prefer 2D chess for maximum clarity and crispness.
It’s quite astounding how many 2D games from the late 90’s truly stand the test of time and still rival or surpass all their 3D sequels released over the last 25 years.
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Bisutopia19229 Posts
I'm good with cartoonish, because I play BW exclusively with carbot skins.
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Northern Ireland25035 Posts
On June 08 2023 00:01 BisuDagger wrote:
I'm good with cartoonish, because I play BW exclusively with carbot skins.
You mean there’s another way to play? :O
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Curious what they will do about latency issues. Hopefully there won’t be a region lock.
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Minimap needs to be able to be in a corner, if rts creators dont understand that by now then there is no hope
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On June 08 2023 04:23 Kare wrote:
Minimap needs to be able to be in a corner, if rts creators dont understand that by now then there is no hope
I agree, but looking at those screens I'm wondering if that's not actually their intention. Those UIs look to me like maybe they're a one-size-fits-all solution to allow testing on 4:3 monitors during development.
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Graphics literally are the least of my concerns. Give me a game with a pace in between SC2 and Brood War. That has modern UI and I don't have to fight against the game to play (looking at you dragoons...) and I'll move over from SC2 in a second.
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On June 08 2023 05:05 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2023 04:23 Kare wrote:
Minimap needs to be able to be in a corner, if rts creators dont understand that by now then there is no hope I agree, but looking at those screens I'm wondering if that's not actually their intention. Those UIs look to me like maybe they're a one-size-fits-all solution to allow testing on 4:3 monitors during development.
Those screenshots don't even have game graphics in them, they look very much like a mockup to show what you can expect in terms of layout and feel, not that every single detail is what you can expect at launch. It's honestly kind of silly to think that anything we're looking at right now is 100% indicative of the final game.
That said, yeah, having to look past the UI to see what might be going on in that corner would suck ass. If the game ships like that with no option to change it they will get grilled for it.
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EPT
