EPTRogue and Dark.
Who are the last Code S winners?
Rogue and Dark.
It's really not that hard to see why people are mentioning Rogue and Dark especially since they both are in the region while Serral is not.
Why do Korean pros underrate Serral? - Page 2
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Rogue and Dark. Who are the last Code S winners? Rogue and Dark. It's really not that hard to see why people are mentioning Rogue and Dark especially since they both are in the region while Serral is not. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7029 Posts
On April 30 2020 11:21 StuDToSs wrote: It was interesting to watch the group ceremony of the ro16 and get their thoughts on certain players: there was a segment where a category was given and other players were supposed to mention who they thought fit that category. There was one category which was "unrivaled Zerg" and almost everyone mentioned Dark or Rogue as the top two. Only Stats I believe mentioned Serral's name. It's as if they won't fully acknowledge Serral until he wins GSL Code S or something. Well, Rogue bombed a lot recently and Dark is the #1 seed in GSL. And none of these have played much if any against Serral. So I'd expected the answers > 80% Dark | ||
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Jealous
10260 Posts
On April 30 2020 14:45 tigon_ridge wrote: Serral would already have at least 4 GSL wins under his belt by now, and that's if he were unlucky.  | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2020 15:25 tigon_ridge wrote: ??? Never said that they should. A defacto region lock is a region lock nevertheless. They have theirs, it's fair the world has its own. Regardless, the main point you missed is that Serral would've collected GSL trophies, if it were worth his time to try. Would also have been fun to count the number of times he would make it into the Ro4. .... How many Blizzcon titles does he have? 1. IEM titles? 0 That's from what, 3 Blizzcons and 5 IEMs? Why do you think he would have won so many when nothing points towards it? At best his history shows he would be reaching RO4s. Nothjing shows he would be winning consistently against the very best as his history shows. In the meantime Rogue won Blizzcon and 2 IEMs. Edit> eh, wrong post to quote, but w/e, | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On April 30 2020 17:38 deacon.frost wrote: How many Blizzcon titles does he have? 1. IEM titles? 0 That's from what, 3 Blizzcons and 5 IEMs? Why do you think he would have won so many when nothing points towards it? At best his history shows he would be reaching RO4s. Nothjing shows he would be winning consistently against the very best as his history shows. In the meantime Rogue won Blizzcon and 2 IEMs. Edit> eh, wrong post to quote, but w/e, The likes of you keep saying the same thing every time like a broken record, and each time I gave you the same multi-paragraph lecture about statistics and probability, that you never understood. Each time you reveal your ignorance of the volatility of these tournaments, and each time you willfully ignore your favorite players' losses and failure. Wins have to be weighed against fails when evaluating players' overall ability, yet you always state the same one-dimensional argument, only counting tourney wins and ignoring those abject fails your favorite GSL players made. Serral had made it far into almost every tournament he hadn't won. He consistently ranks #1 in his groups, and has never failed to make it out. You cannot say the same for any of your favorite Koreans. He also has an overwhelmingly positive w/l record against just about every Korean, except Maru, and especially if you start from 2018 onward, yet you say, "nothing shows he would be winning consistently against the very best." It's not funny anymore. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2020 18:05 tigon_ridge wrote: The likes of you keep saying the same thing every time like a broken record, and each time I gave you the same multi-paragraph lecture about statistics and probability, that you never understood. Each time you reveal your ignorance of the volatility of these tournaments, and each time you willfully ignore your favorite players' losses and failure. Wins have to be weighed against fails when evaluating players' overall ability, yet you always state the same one-dimensional argument, only counting tourney wins and ignoring those abject fails your favorite GSL players made. Serral had made it far into almost every tournament he hadn't won. He consistently ranks #1 in his groups, and has never failed to make it out. You cannot say the same for any of your favorite Koreans. He also has an overwhelmingly positive w/l record against just about every Korean, except Maru, and especially if you start from 2018 onward, yet you say, "nothing shows he would be winning consistently against the very best." It's not funny anymore. I'm not denying he would go far, I'm denyin he would won multiple titles. As nothing from the top tournaments show this. Edit> Please discuss what I write not what you think I am thinking because obviously you don't know that. To be precise, i was discussing this utter bullshit Serral would already have at least 4 GSL wins under his belt by now, | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1849 Posts
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parksonsc
175 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Winning IEM and BlizzCon doesn't lead to winning Code S titles and the opposite isn't necessarily true, just look at how many World Championships Maru has under his belt. Serral would have entered any Code S as the favourite since he became godlike mid 2018; we will never know if and how many he would have won(I think at least one when he was unbeatable at his peak and the one Rogue won, imagine Serral playing ZvZ in a Reynorless environment). Korean pros have given all the due respect to Serral after he won BlizzCon, as Wax says he was held in high regard in the interviews at last Katowice(rightfully so); maybe the players were focused on the GSL environment. | ||
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ThxSub~
17 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2020 19:54 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you guys bored? Winning IEM and BlizzCon doesn't lead to winning Code S titles and the opposite isn't necessarily true, just look at how many World Championships Maru has under his belt. Serral would have entered any Code S as the favourite since he became godlike mid 2018; we will never know if and how many he would have won(I think at least one when he was unbeatable at his peak and the one Rogue won, imagine Serral playing ZvZ in a Reynorless environment). Korean pros have given all the due respect to Serral after he won BlizzCon, as Wax says he was held in high regard in the interviews at last Katowice(rightfully so); maybe the players were focused on the GSL environment. i'm actually really bored right now so why the hack no nobody says he's not good. READ. IT. AGAIN. ALL. What we're saying is - he's not winning enough top tier tournaments to say he would have won 4 GLSs (unless it was meant that Serral would have won 4 BO3 in the last year which is the underrating we're talking about) - he's getting far - there are other Zergs who are participating in KOrea more thus dominating Koreans more - namely Dark and Rogue. (so when you ask Koreans about the undoubtful dominatrix of Zerg you get Dark and Rogue, specially when Dark won Blizzcon, Rogue IEM and Dark was playing godtier Zerg in the ST) | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 30 2020 18:05 tigon_ridge wrote: The likes of you keep saying the same thing every time like a broken record, and each time I gave you the same multi-paragraph lecture about statistics and probability, that you never understood. Each time you reveal your ignorance of the volatility of these tournaments, and each time you willfully ignore your favorite players' losses and failure. Wins have to be weighed against fails when evaluating players' overall ability, yet you always state the same one-dimensional argument, only counting tourney wins and ignoring those abject fails your favorite GSL players made. Serral had made it far into almost every tournament he hadn't won. He consistently ranks #1 in his groups, and has never failed to make it out. You cannot say the same for any of your favorite Koreans. He also has an overwhelmingly positive w/l record against just about every Korean, except Maru, and especially if you start from 2018 onward, yet you say, "nothing shows he would be winning consistently against the very best." It's not funny anymore. We are all like broken records, because we have different sets of criteria and different methods of interpreting the statistics. While yours and Xain0n methods are blatantly wrong and ridiculous, ours have merit. That is the difference between us and that is why no matter how many times you try to promote your dumb arguments, they will never be accepted here. To put it as simple as possible for lesser minds incapable of processing information the correct way, Serral is not playing with the top dogs for most of the year. That is why he seems so dominant. He always reaches the top no matter what. But on the top, he is no more dominant that any top Korean. Statistics prove that. He has won 1 from 7 WC tournaments. There really is no argument in the world you can use to diminish this fact. GSL would be no different. Yes, he is the most consistent player in the world for a couple of years now, and absolutely one of the best. And yes, we might assume he would consistently make top 8 in GSL. But would he be winning it? There is absolutely no way we can say that unless he tries and wins at least one. And from what we have seen (1 from 7), the probability he would win is quite small. Rogue and Dark have achieved much more than Serral and proven themselves against top competition time and time again. Its only natural that the top dogs have them in higher regard, although as we have seen on IEM interviews, they hold Serral really high as well. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 30 2020 20:31 deacon.frost wrote: i'm actually really bored right now so why the hack no nobody says he's not good. READ. IT. AGAIN. ALL. What we're saying is - he's not winning enough top tier tournaments to say he would have won 4 GLSs (unless it was meant that Serral would have won 4 BO3 in the last year which is the underrating we're talking about) - he's getting far - there are other Zergs who are participating in KOrea more thus dominating Koreans more - namely Dark and Rogue. (so when you ask Koreans about the undoubtful dominatrix of Zerg you get Dark and Rogue, specially when Dark won Blizzcon, Rogue IEM and Dark was playing godtier Zerg in the ST) You are overreacting. I did not mention nor imply anyone said Serral is not good; in fact, I think korean pros definitely do not underrate Serral, unlike the op was saying. Any number of Code S Serral would or wouldn't have won is fictitious; since mid 2018 there have been 5, I am doubtful myself he would have won 4. In any of case, this is just pure speculation so it's a completely irrelevant subject. On April 30 2020 20:50 MarianoSC2 wrote: We are all like broken records, because we have different sets of criteria and different methods of interpreting the statistics. While yours and Xanion methods are blatantly wrong and ridiculous, ours have merit. That is the difference between us and that is why no matter how many times you try to promote your dumb arguments, they will never be accepted here. To put it as simple as possible for lesser minds incapable of processing information the correct way, Serral is not playing with the top dogs for most of the year. That is why he seems so dominant. He always reaches the top no matter what. But on the top, he is no more dominant that any top Korean. Statistics prove that. He has won 1 from 7 WC tournaments. There really is no argument in the world you can use to diminish this fact. GSL would be no different. Yes, he is the most consistent player in the world for a couple of years now, and absolutely one of the best. And yes, we might assume he would consistently make top 8 in GSL. But would he be winning it? There is absolutely no way we can say that unless he tries and wins at least one. And from what we have seen (1 from 7), the probability he would win is quite small. Rogue and Dark have achieved much more than Serral and proven themselves against top competition time and time again. Its only natural that the top dogs have them in higher regard, although as we have seen on IEM interviews, they hold Serral really high as well. You, instead, are delirating. In two years, Serral has played more series against koreans than Dark did in 2019 alone, against higher rated opponents on average and with a higher win ratio; he plays often enough against top dogs to conclude that he looks dominant because he effectively is, there is no illusion. So, if Code S and World Championships are no different, how comes Maru has never won one in his whole career(and he was reaching ro4 of BlizzCon as early as 2013...) and that Rogue won a single Code S in a moment when balance heavily favored Zerg? Also, 1/7 is a very misleading number, Serral wasn't a Championship contender at the very top level in 2017. Yes, we can't say for sure that Serral would have won a Code S but stating that "the probability he would win is quite small" is laughable; it would be roughly the best a single player could have right now, and it would have been higher in the past when he was more dominant. No way Dark and Rogue have achieved much more than Serral but that's another pointless discussion since our criteria are very different; trophies won and money earned would say otherwise, at least How much the holy korean GSL is better than the filthy foreigner circuit is a theological discussion at this point. Korean players, interviewed during GSL, should better fear Dark and Rogue; Serral is not competing(technically, Rogue isn't too). | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7029 Posts
Obviously both Serral fans and Serral haters will have statements prepared for every case this will end. If Serral wins, it was just a "holiday cup", online, jet lag, no top dogs ( Dark and Maru haven't tried qualifiers yet), ... If Serral doesn't at least reach semis, it was illness, fatigue, lost vs eventual winner, .... Can't wait  | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19300 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On April 30 2020 22:45 BisuDagger wrote: Serral feels like a top 5 player right now, not a top 2 player. In his finals Red Bull series versus Clem, Clem did a reverse sweep. A year and a half ago, winning 3 games versus Serral seemed like an impossible feat. Now the other best of the best players are starting to catch up to him making it much harder for him to claim top 1 or 2 in the world. He does seem to be on a very slow but steady fall since his world championship and after a pretty insane balance for zerg last year, these last few months have been pretty good for terran and the next patch will hurt zerg a lot. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4958 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19300 Posts
On April 30 2020 23:08 Nakajin wrote: He does seem to be on a very slow but steady fall since his world championship and after a pretty insane balance for zerg last year, these last few months have been pretty good for terran and the next patch will hurt zerg a lot. Yeah. I'd argue that the patch for 2019 helped top (non)Serral Zergs catch up to Serral's level and that the patch for 2020 helped top non-Zergs catch up to Serral's level. So if anything, Serral was at a point in 2018 that he was so good he superseded any help that the 2019 patch gave his race, but now with the patches and time, other players have been able to catch up. | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
On April 30 2020 12:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote: A while back didn't they ask a bunch of the pros who they thought the best player in the world was, and a number of the Koreans answered Serral? They aren't biased against Serral--they simply just don't think he's the best zerg at the moment (especially since he hasn't played much recently). And the whole "Serral can't be the best as long as he doesn't play in GSL" is just projection from the community. You can think that Dark is better than him without going into that nonsense. edit: Ah yeah at IEM: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/fady85/pro_players_asked_who_they_think_the_best_player/ I don't entirely agree with the projection part. While I do agree that its possible to be the best player in the world without being in GSL you can't really "prove" it unless you compete at the highest level. Which Serral does do occasionally, but not enough. WCS isn't the highest level, neither is HSC. Arguably neither is WCS global finals (though its getting closer than previous years). Highest level is GSL and GSL Super Tournament. I do think that Serral was the best in the world for a period last year, its everything but clear since he chickens out of actual GSL. | ||
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