EPTThere was one category which was "unrivaled Zerg" and almost everyone mentioned Dark or Rogue as the top two. Only Stats I believe mentioned Serral's name.
It's as if they won't fully acknowledge Serral until he wins GSL Code S or something.
Why do Korean pros underrate Serral?
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StuDToSs
116 Posts
There was one category which was "unrivaled Zerg" and almost everyone mentioned Dark or Rogue as the top two. Only Stats I believe mentioned Serral's name. It's as if they won't fully acknowledge Serral until he wins GSL Code S or something. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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ssg
United States1773 Posts
Regardless, I'm sure gsl players think gsl is the the best sc2 competition in the world. He will always have that what if about his career unless he shows up to Korea for a real gsl. Not saying he should or shouldnt do that. Probably not worth the resources to him to actually do it, in fact. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On April 30 2020 11:21 StuDToSs wrote: It was interesting to watch the group ceremony of the ro16 and get their thoughts on certain players: there was a segment where a category was given and other players were supposed to mention who they thought fit that category. There was one category which was "unrivaled Zerg" and almost everyone mentioned Dark or Rogue as the top two. Only Stats I believe mentioned Serral's name. It's as if they won't fully acknowledge Serral until he wins GSL Code S or something. You've gotta keep in mind that they have much, much more interaction with Dark and Rogue than Serral, and those two Koreans do kick their butts a lot: on ladder, private practice sessions, and Korean tournaments. Naturally, if you can't seem to a beat a guy, you're inclined to think that probably he's the best of his category. To say that Serral is the best, their minds would have to make a couple leaps of abstraction, to consider all the statistics belonging to Serral, and so it's much less of an intuitive, natural response. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
Of course, that's why it's call recency bias because it's not necessarily logical | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On April 30 2020 11:53 Bagration wrote: There's also potential recency bias at play here - Serral technically hasn't won a Premier tournament since last November, while Rogue won IEM Katowice in March, and Dark got 2nd in the March GSL Super Tournament (though Serral did finish top 4 at Katowice). Moreover, the last 2 Premier tournaments that Serral won were the Homestory Cup XX and WCS Fall, which took place outside Korea, so it might be further out-of-mind for Korean players. Of course, that's why it's call recency bias because it's not necessarily logical Rating people based on their recent performance is very logical, given that they were being asked about present form. | ||
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eScaper-tsunami
Canada313 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
They aren't biased against Serral--they simply just don't think he's the best zerg at the moment (especially since he hasn't played much recently). And the whole "Serral can't be the best as long as he doesn't play in GSL" is just projection from the community. You can think that Dark is better than him without going into that nonsense. edit: Ah yeah at IEM: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/fady85/pro_players_asked_who_they_think_the_best_player/ | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On April 30 2020 12:06 QOGQOG wrote: Rating people based on their recent performance is very logical, given that they were being asked about present form. True, but it's less that Serral hasn't played well recently (though he hasn't been unbeatable this year like his legendary 2018 run), and more that Serral hasn't been as visible recently in terms of hoisting trophies. For example, he outperformed Dark at IEM Katowice. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
I Don t think any Korean is underestimating him, they were just referring to GSL. The Argument "he wasn t that good recently" brought up before is probably not realy the reason. Serral had a better Result than Dark at IEM and Rogue just flopped out of Super Tournament 1 and GSL | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
Rogue and Dark both won Code S last year while Serral did not even participate. It's easy, for me, to see why GSL players wouldn't place Serral above Dark and Rogue right now. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On April 30 2020 14:34 FFW_Rude wrote: Remove region lock and you'll get why. Tell that to the GSL organizers. No one should have to stay in your country for months, unless your prize pool is at least double its current amount. Unless they remove their defacto region lock, foreigners should hang onto theirs. Serral would already have at least 4 GSL wins under his belt by now, and that's if he were unlucky. He would also leave his groups first place more often than any other GSLer. | ||
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parksonsc
175 Posts
On April 30 2020 14:45 tigon_ridge wrote: Tell that to the GSL organizers. No one should have to stay in your country for months, unless your prize pool is at least double its current amount. Unless they remove their defacto region lock, foreigners should hang onto theirs. Serral would already have at least 4 GSL wins under his belt by now, and that's if he were unlucky. He would also leave his groups first place more often than any other GSLer. ??? GSL is a long-run tournament, if you can't stay in Korea then don't play it. Why should they change the format to make it easier for foreigners to join in? | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On April 30 2020 15:05 parksonsc wrote: ??? GSL is a long-run tournament, if you can't stay in Korea then don't play it. Why should they change the format to make it easier for foreigners to join in? GSL is a soft-locked Tournament, where you can only participate, if you live in Seol over an extendet period of time. So it would make kind of sense, to remove the soft lock, when you re removing the hard region lock from the foreign tourneys as well. I personally like the different formats, both weekenders, where you have to adapt on the fly and preperation heavy long running tournaments. That s why I think hos suggestion is bad, but I at least see where he s coming from.. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On April 30 2020 15:05 parksonsc wrote: ??? GSL is a long-run tournament, if you can't stay in Korea then don't play it. Why should they change the format to make it easier for foreigners to join in? ??? Never said that they should. A defacto region lock is a region lock nevertheless. They have theirs, it's fair the world has its own. Regardless, the main point you missed is that Serral would've collected GSL trophies, if it were worth his time to try. Would also have been fun to count the number of times he would make it into the Ro4. EDIT: I can see how my prior comment came off as saying GSL is unfair in its format. I meant to say, it isn't worth most players' time to stay in a foreign country, whose language and culture are very different, for an extended period, just to try at winning $25k. I don't think Serral really cares all that much about the prestige of the GSL either, since he's already proven he can (and is likely to) beat the best of the Koreans. | ||
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shadow4723
87 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33387 Posts
On April 30 2020 11:21 StuDToSs wrote: It was interesting to watch the group ceremony of the ro16 and get their thoughts on certain players: there was a segment where a category was given and other players were supposed to mention who they thought fit that category. There was one category which was "unrivaled Zerg" and almost everyone mentioned Dark or Rogue as the top two. Only Stats I believe mentioned Serral's name. It's as if they won't fully acknowledge Serral until he wins GSL Code S or something. I wouldn't read too deeply into it. At Katowice they did a similar rapid-fire questions kind of video and most of the players answered Serral. It's a fairly open ended question anyway (I think it was better translated as "best" Zerg). Stats interpreted it as weighing total career accomplishments and thought about Dark, Rogue, and Serral for a second. Other players gave faster answers without thinking about it too much. It's a for-fun segment, not some definitive, irrevocable declaration of opinion. Don't think about it too hard; I doubt many of the progamers did  | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Rogue and Dark. Who are the last Code S winners? Rogue and Dark. It's really not that hard to see why people are mentioning Rogue and Dark especially since they both are in the region while Serral is not. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6924 Posts
On April 30 2020 11:21 StuDToSs wrote: It was interesting to watch the group ceremony of the ro16 and get their thoughts on certain players: there was a segment where a category was given and other players were supposed to mention who they thought fit that category. There was one category which was "unrivaled Zerg" and almost everyone mentioned Dark or Rogue as the top two. Only Stats I believe mentioned Serral's name. It's as if they won't fully acknowledge Serral until he wins GSL Code S or something. Well, Rogue bombed a lot recently and Dark is the #1 seed in GSL. And none of these have played much if any against Serral. So I'd expected the answers > 80% Dark | ||
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Jealous
10146 Posts
On April 30 2020 14:45 tigon_ridge wrote: Serral would already have at least 4 GSL wins under his belt by now, and that's if he were unlucky.  | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2020 15:25 tigon_ridge wrote: ??? Never said that they should. A defacto region lock is a region lock nevertheless. They have theirs, it's fair the world has its own. Regardless, the main point you missed is that Serral would've collected GSL trophies, if it were worth his time to try. Would also have been fun to count the number of times he would make it into the Ro4. .... How many Blizzcon titles does he have? 1. IEM titles? 0 That's from what, 3 Blizzcons and 5 IEMs? Why do you think he would have won so many when nothing points towards it? At best his history shows he would be reaching RO4s. Nothjing shows he would be winning consistently against the very best as his history shows. In the meantime Rogue won Blizzcon and 2 IEMs. Edit> eh, wrong post to quote, but w/e, | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On April 30 2020 17:38 deacon.frost wrote: How many Blizzcon titles does he have? 1. IEM titles? 0 That's from what, 3 Blizzcons and 5 IEMs? Why do you think he would have won so many when nothing points towards it? At best his history shows he would be reaching RO4s. Nothjing shows he would be winning consistently against the very best as his history shows. In the meantime Rogue won Blizzcon and 2 IEMs. Edit> eh, wrong post to quote, but w/e, The likes of you keep saying the same thing every time like a broken record, and each time I gave you the same multi-paragraph lecture about statistics and probability, that you never understood. Each time you reveal your ignorance of the volatility of these tournaments, and each time you willfully ignore your favorite players' losses and failure. Wins have to be weighed against fails when evaluating players' overall ability, yet you always state the same one-dimensional argument, only counting tourney wins and ignoring those abject fails your favorite GSL players made. Serral had made it far into almost every tournament he hadn't won. He consistently ranks #1 in his groups, and has never failed to make it out. You cannot say the same for any of your favorite Koreans. He also has an overwhelmingly positive w/l record against just about every Korean, except Maru, and especially if you start from 2018 onward, yet you say, "nothing shows he would be winning consistently against the very best." It's not funny anymore. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2020 18:05 tigon_ridge wrote: The likes of you keep saying the same thing every time like a broken record, and each time I gave you the same multi-paragraph lecture about statistics and probability, that you never understood. Each time you reveal your ignorance of the volatility of these tournaments, and each time you willfully ignore your favorite players' losses and failure. Wins have to be weighed against fails when evaluating players' overall ability, yet you always state the same one-dimensional argument, only counting tourney wins and ignoring those abject fails your favorite GSL players made. Serral had made it far into almost every tournament he hadn't won. He consistently ranks #1 in his groups, and has never failed to make it out. You cannot say the same for any of your favorite Koreans. He also has an overwhelmingly positive w/l record against just about every Korean, except Maru, and especially if you start from 2018 onward, yet you say, "nothing shows he would be winning consistently against the very best." It's not funny anymore. I'm not denying he would go far, I'm denyin he would won multiple titles. As nothing from the top tournaments show this. Edit> Please discuss what I write not what you think I am thinking because obviously you don't know that. To be precise, i was discussing this utter bullshit Serral would already have at least 4 GSL wins under his belt by now, | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1704 Posts
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parksonsc
175 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Winning IEM and BlizzCon doesn't lead to winning Code S titles and the opposite isn't necessarily true, just look at how many World Championships Maru has under his belt. Serral would have entered any Code S as the favourite since he became godlike mid 2018; we will never know if and how many he would have won(I think at least one when he was unbeatable at his peak and the one Rogue won, imagine Serral playing ZvZ in a Reynorless environment). Korean pros have given all the due respect to Serral after he won BlizzCon, as Wax says he was held in high regard in the interviews at last Katowice(rightfully so); maybe the players were focused on the GSL environment. | ||
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ThxSub~
17 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2020 19:54 Xain0n wrote: Aren't you guys bored? Winning IEM and BlizzCon doesn't lead to winning Code S titles and the opposite isn't necessarily true, just look at how many World Championships Maru has under his belt. Serral would have entered any Code S as the favourite since he became godlike mid 2018; we will never know if and how many he would have won(I think at least one when he was unbeatable at his peak and the one Rogue won, imagine Serral playing ZvZ in a Reynorless environment). Korean pros have given all the due respect to Serral after he won BlizzCon, as Wax says he was held in high regard in the interviews at last Katowice(rightfully so); maybe the players were focused on the GSL environment. i'm actually really bored right now so why the hack no nobody says he's not good. READ. IT. AGAIN. ALL. What we're saying is - he's not winning enough top tier tournaments to say he would have won 4 GLSs (unless it was meant that Serral would have won 4 BO3 in the last year which is the underrating we're talking about) - he's getting far - there are other Zergs who are participating in KOrea more thus dominating Koreans more - namely Dark and Rogue. (so when you ask Koreans about the undoubtful dominatrix of Zerg you get Dark and Rogue, specially when Dark won Blizzcon, Rogue IEM and Dark was playing godtier Zerg in the ST) | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 30 2020 18:05 tigon_ridge wrote: The likes of you keep saying the same thing every time like a broken record, and each time I gave you the same multi-paragraph lecture about statistics and probability, that you never understood. Each time you reveal your ignorance of the volatility of these tournaments, and each time you willfully ignore your favorite players' losses and failure. Wins have to be weighed against fails when evaluating players' overall ability, yet you always state the same one-dimensional argument, only counting tourney wins and ignoring those abject fails your favorite GSL players made. Serral had made it far into almost every tournament he hadn't won. He consistently ranks #1 in his groups, and has never failed to make it out. You cannot say the same for any of your favorite Koreans. He also has an overwhelmingly positive w/l record against just about every Korean, except Maru, and especially if you start from 2018 onward, yet you say, "nothing shows he would be winning consistently against the very best." It's not funny anymore. We are all like broken records, because we have different sets of criteria and different methods of interpreting the statistics. While yours and Xain0n methods are blatantly wrong and ridiculous, ours have merit. That is the difference between us and that is why no matter how many times you try to promote your dumb arguments, they will never be accepted here. To put it as simple as possible for lesser minds incapable of processing information the correct way, Serral is not playing with the top dogs for most of the year. That is why he seems so dominant. He always reaches the top no matter what. But on the top, he is no more dominant that any top Korean. Statistics prove that. He has won 1 from 7 WC tournaments. There really is no argument in the world you can use to diminish this fact. GSL would be no different. Yes, he is the most consistent player in the world for a couple of years now, and absolutely one of the best. And yes, we might assume he would consistently make top 8 in GSL. But would he be winning it? There is absolutely no way we can say that unless he tries and wins at least one. And from what we have seen (1 from 7), the probability he would win is quite small. Rogue and Dark have achieved much more than Serral and proven themselves against top competition time and time again. Its only natural that the top dogs have them in higher regard, although as we have seen on IEM interviews, they hold Serral really high as well. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 30 2020 20:31 deacon.frost wrote: i'm actually really bored right now so why the hack no nobody says he's not good. READ. IT. AGAIN. ALL. What we're saying is - he's not winning enough top tier tournaments to say he would have won 4 GLSs (unless it was meant that Serral would have won 4 BO3 in the last year which is the underrating we're talking about) - he's getting far - there are other Zergs who are participating in KOrea more thus dominating Koreans more - namely Dark and Rogue. (so when you ask Koreans about the undoubtful dominatrix of Zerg you get Dark and Rogue, specially when Dark won Blizzcon, Rogue IEM and Dark was playing godtier Zerg in the ST) You are overreacting. I did not mention nor imply anyone said Serral is not good; in fact, I think korean pros definitely do not underrate Serral, unlike the op was saying. Any number of Code S Serral would or wouldn't have won is fictitious; since mid 2018 there have been 5, I am doubtful myself he would have won 4. In any of case, this is just pure speculation so it's a completely irrelevant subject. On April 30 2020 20:50 MarianoSC2 wrote: We are all like broken records, because we have different sets of criteria and different methods of interpreting the statistics. While yours and Xanion methods are blatantly wrong and ridiculous, ours have merit. That is the difference between us and that is why no matter how many times you try to promote your dumb arguments, they will never be accepted here. To put it as simple as possible for lesser minds incapable of processing information the correct way, Serral is not playing with the top dogs for most of the year. That is why he seems so dominant. He always reaches the top no matter what. But on the top, he is no more dominant that any top Korean. Statistics prove that. He has won 1 from 7 WC tournaments. There really is no argument in the world you can use to diminish this fact. GSL would be no different. Yes, he is the most consistent player in the world for a couple of years now, and absolutely one of the best. And yes, we might assume he would consistently make top 8 in GSL. But would he be winning it? There is absolutely no way we can say that unless he tries and wins at least one. And from what we have seen (1 from 7), the probability he would win is quite small. Rogue and Dark have achieved much more than Serral and proven themselves against top competition time and time again. Its only natural that the top dogs have them in higher regard, although as we have seen on IEM interviews, they hold Serral really high as well. You, instead, are delirating. In two years, Serral has played more series against koreans than Dark did in 2019 alone, against higher rated opponents on average and with a higher win ratio; he plays often enough against top dogs to conclude that he looks dominant because he effectively is, there is no illusion. So, if Code S and World Championships are no different, how comes Maru has never won one in his whole career(and he was reaching ro4 of BlizzCon as early as 2013...) and that Rogue won a single Code S in a moment when balance heavily favored Zerg? Also, 1/7 is a very misleading number, Serral wasn't a Championship contender at the very top level in 2017. Yes, we can't say for sure that Serral would have won a Code S but stating that "the probability he would win is quite small" is laughable; it would be roughly the best a single player could have right now, and it would have been higher in the past when he was more dominant. No way Dark and Rogue have achieved much more than Serral but that's another pointless discussion since our criteria are very different; trophies won and money earned would say otherwise, at least How much the holy korean GSL is better than the filthy foreigner circuit is a theological discussion at this point. Korean players, interviewed during GSL, should better fear Dark and Rogue; Serral is not competing(technically, Rogue isn't too). | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6924 Posts
Obviously both Serral fans and Serral haters will have statements prepared for every case this will end. If Serral wins, it was just a "holiday cup", online, jet lag, no top dogs ( Dark and Maru haven't tried qualifiers yet), ... If Serral doesn't at least reach semis, it was illness, fatigue, lost vs eventual winner, .... Can't wait  | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19234 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On April 30 2020 22:45 BisuDagger wrote: Serral feels like a top 5 player right now, not a top 2 player. In his finals Red Bull series versus Clem, Clem did a reverse sweep. A year and a half ago, winning 3 games versus Serral seemed like an impossible feat. Now the other best of the best players are starting to catch up to him making it much harder for him to claim top 1 or 2 in the world. He does seem to be on a very slow but steady fall since his world championship and after a pretty insane balance for zerg last year, these last few months have been pretty good for terran and the next patch will hurt zerg a lot. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4937 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19234 Posts
On April 30 2020 23:08 Nakajin wrote: He does seem to be on a very slow but steady fall since his world championship and after a pretty insane balance for zerg last year, these last few months have been pretty good for terran and the next patch will hurt zerg a lot. Yeah. I'd argue that the patch for 2019 helped top (non)Serral Zergs catch up to Serral's level and that the patch for 2020 helped top non-Zergs catch up to Serral's level. So if anything, Serral was at a point in 2018 that he was so good he superseded any help that the 2019 patch gave his race, but now with the patches and time, other players have been able to catch up. | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
On April 30 2020 12:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote: A while back didn't they ask a bunch of the pros who they thought the best player in the world was, and a number of the Koreans answered Serral? They aren't biased against Serral--they simply just don't think he's the best zerg at the moment (especially since he hasn't played much recently). And the whole "Serral can't be the best as long as he doesn't play in GSL" is just projection from the community. You can think that Dark is better than him without going into that nonsense. edit: Ah yeah at IEM: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/fady85/pro_players_asked_who_they_think_the_best_player/ I don't entirely agree with the projection part. While I do agree that its possible to be the best player in the world without being in GSL you can't really "prove" it unless you compete at the highest level. Which Serral does do occasionally, but not enough. WCS isn't the highest level, neither is HSC. Arguably neither is WCS global finals (though its getting closer than previous years). Highest level is GSL and GSL Super Tournament. I do think that Serral was the best in the world for a period last year, its everything but clear since he chickens out of actual GSL. | ||
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a7xEnsiferum
7 Posts
The truth is, since the beginning of WoL, and maybe sc1 (didnt follow that game), koreans only really cared about 2 things: GSL, and Proleague. Even Blizzcon was significantly less important. I have been watching since WoL, went to Korea 3 times and even married 1 korean whos family are really big on sc2 so I know a decent amount. So yeah, until Serral plays in GSL, he can win every other tournament, korean pros wont rate him as high as some unqualified Serral fanboys do here. | ||
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HeroSandro
530 Posts
On May 01 2020 00:00 a7xEnsiferum wrote: A lot of you here seems to have been around since only the last 2 years or so. The truth is, since the beginning of WoL, and maybe sc1 (didnt follow that game), koreans only really cared about 2 things: GSL, and Proleague. Even Blizzcon was significantly less important. I have been watching since WoL, went to Korea 3 times and even married 1 korean whos family are really big on sc2 so I know a decent amount. So yeah, until Serral plays in GSL, he can win every other tournament, korean pros wont rate him as high as some unqualified Serral fanboys do here. Can you please inform us all, what are the qualifications to be a "qualified" Serral fanboy? I do love how the level of discussion is deteriorating page by page... | ||
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seanranklin
9 Posts
Koreans have a lot of respect for Serral. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
As early as march/april 2018 classic already called serral the best or one of the top 3 players in the world. They might even overestimate him as they are not that used to be contested by white guys. (I got the same feeling with Stephano despite the fact I am a big fan of the pink power) Now, you came in the wrong website with many "purists" who want to be more pro koreans than the korean will ever be like the bw elitists were in their time. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 01 2020 00:37 stilt wrote: As pointed out, Serral is really respected by the koreans, countless of their statements exactly contradict the majority of the "experts" who responded to you. As early as march/april 2018 classic already called serral the best or one of the top 3 players in the world. They might even overestimate him as they are not that used to be contested by white guys. (I got the same feeling with Stephano despite the fact I am a big fan of the pink power) Now, you came in the wrong website with many "purists" who want to be more pro koreans than the korean will ever be like the bw elitists were in their time. Almost everyone responded with - they respect him, there are currently bigger zergs at the scene, especially at the Korean scene. So who are the majority you write about? Or the purists? Many contradict only Serral being the GOAT or the best, not his playing qualities, so, uh. Quote them posts, plx. | ||
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Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
I imagine these threads will become rampant once the patch hits. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On April 30 2020 18:41 deacon.frost wrote: I'm not denying he would go far, I'm denyin he would won multiple titles. As nothing from the top tournaments show this. They show plenty that he would. The top tournaments also shows Maru bombs out of groupstages occasionally; Dark gets his clock cleaned by Rogue consistently, and occasionally by much worse zergs like Elazer, Ragnarok, etc.; and Rogue suffers some combination of both, except with even more vT and vP losses sprinkled in. The top tournaments shows Serral manhandling consistently every Korean player except the guy who seems forbidden by the RNG deity from facing him. Maybe...you're just willfully ignorant? On April 30 2020 20:50 MarianoSC2 wrote: We are all like broken records, because we have different sets of criteria and different methods of interpreting the statistics. While yours and Xain0n methods are blatantly wrong and ridiculous, ours have merit. That is the difference between us and that is why no matter how many times you try to promote your dumb arguments, they will never be accepted here. To put it as simple as possible for lesser minds incapable of processing information the correct way, Serral is not playing with the top dogs for most of the year. That is why he seems so dominant. He always reaches the top no matter what. But on the top, he is no more dominant that any top Korean. Statistics prove that. He has won 1 from 7 WC tournaments. There really is no argument in the world you can use to diminish this fact. GSL would be no different. Yes, he is the most consistent player in the world for a couple of years now, and absolutely one of the best. And yes, we might assume he would consistently make top 8 in GSL. But would he be winning it? There is absolutely no way we can say that unless he tries and wins at least one. And from what we have seen (1 from 7), the probability he would win is quite small. Rogue and Dark have achieved much more than Serral and proven themselves against top competition time and time again. Its only natural that the top dogs have them in higher regard, although as we have seen on IEM interviews, they hold Serral really high as well. Not the top dogs this year? Wow, you've just insulted Innovation, Dream, Cure, soO, and Solar. And why stop at just this year? Why not include a bit of 2019 at least? Number of tournament wins is not a fucking statistic! The sample size you're talking about is literally a single digit—that's not how statistics works! Good god, what are they teaching kids in school? You must consider bullshitting a competitive sport. You'd win a gold medal for sure. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nMpasLF.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/S8Hecv3.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/GBrcX2K.jpg) It's not even close. Important to note: Serral's mantel doesn't even include the heads of low-to-mid-tier Koreans. If he played against them, you could probably up his vs-Korean percentages by another couple points. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3380 Posts
On April 30 2020 18:52 parksonsc wrote: In Serral's entire career he only won 3 major titles which had Korean participated: GSL vs the World is an invitational tournaments while Blizzcon is a half Invitational one as well, basically 6 of the foreigners were free wins. The most competitive one are GSL and IEM, he won none of those, take it fanboys. and how many did he participate in that he didn't win? | ||
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 01 2020 22:10 tigon_ridge wrote: They show plenty that he would. The top tournaments also shows Maru bombs out of groupstages occasionally; Dark gets his clock cleaned by Rogue consistently, and occasionally by much worse zergs like Elazer, Ragnarok, etc.; and Rogue suffers some combination of both, except with even more vT and vP losses sprinkled in. The top tournaments shows Serral manhandling consistently every Korean player except the guy who seems forbidden by the RNG deity from facing him. Maybe...you're just willfully ignorant? Not the top dogs this year? Wow, you've just insulted Innovation, Dream, Cure, soO, and Solar. And why stop at just this year? Why not include a bit of 2019 at least? Number of tournament wins is not a fucking statistic! The sample size you're talking about is literally a single digit—that's not how statistics works! Good god, what are they teaching kids in school? You must consider bullshitting a competitive sport. You'd win a gold medal for sure. It's not even close. Important to note: Serral's mantel doesn't even include the heads of low-to-mid-tier Koreans. If he played against them, you could probably up his vs-Korean percentages by another couple points. Why does this Aligulac god flop at every single opportunity since his big achievement in Blizzcon 2018? TeamLiquid's favorite patchzerg, Rogue vastly outclasses Serral with his results, and he's not even considered as good as Dark or Maru. Fact is: No one gives a shit about who is the bonjwa of WCS welfare circuit and Serral fans are mad people don't acknowledge how he would win 4 GSLs in a row if only he left Finland to play some Starcraft. We are lucky a humble man such as Serral leaves the 500.000 USD he could easily win every year to lesser opponents like Dark and Maru, the guys who bitchslap Serral's italian Nemesis everytime they meet. Yet somehow the GOAT god of Zerg can barely break even with the underaged italian guy after a full year of Zerg welfare circuit. | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 02 2020 18:23 Elentos wrote: Can we just close this thread now? Too much? | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 02 2020 18:30 Elentos wrote: The only reason to keep this thread open is if mods want to let natural selection take its course. God forbid people go into the only remaining Starcraft forum to talk about Starcraft players. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 02 2020 18:42 Morbidius wrote: God forbid people go into the only remaining Starcraft forum to talk about Starcraft players. If only people were passionate enough to spend this much time debating literally anything other than if Serral is the best player. There's only so many times you can see the same people presenting the same stupid arguments in favour of the same player before you should really just give up. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On May 02 2020 18:17 Morbidius wrote: Why does this Aligulac god flop at every single opportunity since his big achievement in Blizzcon 2018? TeamLiquid's favorite patchzerg, Rogue vastly outclasses Serral with his results, and he's not even considered as good as Dark or Maru. Fact is: No one gives a shit about who is the bonjwa of WCS welfare circuit and Serral fans are mad people don't acknowledge how he would win 4 GSLs in a row if only he left Finland to play some Starcraft. We are lucky a humble man such as Serral leaves the 500.000 USD he could easily win every year to lesser opponents like Dark and Maru, the guys who bitchslap Serral's italian Nemesis everytime they meet. Yet somehow the GOAT god of Zerg can barely break even with the underaged italian guy after a full year of Zerg welfare circuit. Slow clap. That's an impressive amount of clowning compressed into one paragraph. Rogue's results, compared to Serral's, has been awful, getting run over by so many players: Innovation, Scarlett, some guy named dynamite, Parting, Cure, and sOs—all either consumed by Serral, or not even worthy of being on his dinner plate. Serral v Reynor is 18-7 since 08-2019, and 46-23 overall. "Barely break even." Thanks for the amusement. More, please. Can I also get an animal balloon? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On May 02 2020 18:54 Fango wrote: If only people were passionate enough to spend this much time debating literally anything other than if Serral is the best player. There's only so many times you can see the same people presenting the same stupid arguments against the same player before you should really just give up. Fixed it for you. Good observation. I'm right with you. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Just an FYI, no one cares if you lose to some random playes when you're winning world championships. No one cares about aligulac when you're winning GSL. It's a much more valued position than consistently getting ro8/ro4 in the world championships, skipping the most competitive leagues, and frequently winning lower tier events. That's what people have been trying to tell you. No pro player plays for aligulac points, they play for either money or to try and win the big tournaments (or both). At least in 2018 there was a legitimate (and correct) argument for him being the best zerg in the latter half of the year. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria818 Posts
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On May 02 2020 19:46 SC-Shield wrote: Does Serral participate in TSL5? He's listed as an invitee. Only downside to being invited, as opposed to qualified, is we don't get to see more Serral games (albeit, most of them would be boring one-sided stomps anyway). | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 02 2020 19:46 Fango wrote: I dunno man, Serral winning only one significant/global level event in the last 18 months, and three in his entire career. While other players of the same race (Rogue and Dark) have picked up multiple world championships and several other events of the same or greater level? If that seems like a stupid argument to you then I'd really wonder what doesn't. Just an FYI, no one cares if you lose to some random playes when you're winning world championships. No one cares about aligulac when you're winning GSL. It's a much more valued position than consistently getting ro8/ro4 in the world championships, skipping the most competitive leagues, and frequently winning lower tier events. That's what people have been trying to tell you. No pro player plays for aligulac points, they play for either money or to try and win the big tournaments (or both). At least in 2018 there was a legitimate (and correct) argument for him being the best zerg in the latter half of the year. A legitimate argument for Serral being the best zerg in the latter half in 2018? More like Serral's was the best year in the history of Sc2 regardless of race and only Maru's perfect Code S sweep could hope to be compared to his performance. GSL Zerg were totally irrelevant compared to Serral in that period, yours is such an understatement that it's approaching mendacity. In the last 18 months, Dark and Rogue have won one World Championship each(definitely not multiple) and one Code S each(definitely not several other equal of greater events). Rogue, especially, has managed to collect two ro32 eliminations in Code S, two ro16 exits in Super Tournament and a groupstage elimination in Katowice; he won big and performed poorly in a significant number of relevant tournaments he had to play. Dark, on the other hand, has won a Super Tournament more than Rogue in the meanwhile and has been the best rated GSL player in 2019, collecting a nice amount of deep runs. That's why he was elected best player of the last year, a reasonable decision after all. In the last 18 months, Serral has won more tournaments than Dark(BlizzCon, GSL vs the World, 4 HSC events, 2 WCS, Nation Wars), despite his being less prestigious on average and has been more consistent with relevant placements in international tournaments. Korean pros do not underrate Serral, there is no reason for you haters on TL to; he is not the dominating god he was at his apex but he's still an S tier player, possibly the best(hard to say at the moment). | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On April 30 2020 14:45 tigon_ridge wrote: Tell that to the GSL organizers. No one should have to stay in your country for months, unless your prize pool is at least double its current amount. Unless they remove their defacto region lock, foreigners should hang onto theirs. Serral would already have at least 4 GSL wins under his belt by now, and that's if he were unlucky. He would also leave his groups first place more often than any other GSLer. Oh trust me he wouldn't. Serral's good. But he is also really good because koreans don't have a lot of practice against him. While it's true the other way around, he would face off a lot of player they know very well. It would be a lot harder to win when everyone can analyze you live and talk to each other. So a lot easier to analyze and counter him by having to play him more frequently and also on ladder. Not saying he would not win anything. But he would not win everything | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On May 02 2020 20:34 Xain0n wrote: A legitimate argument for Serral being the best zerg in the latter half in 2018? More like Serral's was the best year in the history of Sc2 regardless of race and only Maru's perfect Code S sweep could hope to be compared to his performance. GSL Zerg were totally irrelevant compared to Serral in that period, yours is such an understatement that it's approaching mendacity. In the last 18 months, Dark and Rogue have won one World Championship each(definitely not multiple) and one Code S each(definitely not several other equal of greater events). Rogue, especially, has managed to collect two ro32 eliminations in Code S, two ro16 exits in Super Tournament and a groupstage elimination in Katowice; he won big and performed poorly in a significant number of relevant tournaments he had to play. Dark, on the other hand, has won a Super Tournament more than Rogue in the meanwhile and has been the best rated GSL player in 2019, collecting a nice amount of deep runs. That's why he was elected best player of the last year, a reasonable decision after all. In the last 18 months, Serral has won more tournaments than Dark(BlizzCon, GSL vs the World, 4 HSC events, 2 WCS, Nation Wars), despite his being less prestigious on average and has been more consistent with relevant placements in international tournaments. Korean pros do not underrate Serral, there is no reason for you haters on TL to; he is not the dominating god he was at his apex but he's still an S tier player, possibly the best(hard to say at the moment). Marus 2018 was still better then Serrals, so yes, he was the best Zerg of the year, but not clearly the best player, as his medals compared to Marus were not as great. The rest of your post is yet again irrelevant, just the same BS over and over again. As everyone said by now, no-one cares about eliminations. If two players compete and in the same time period... One of them wins a single S-tier tournament and the other one wins 4, then there really is no comparison to be made between them. No amount of HSC or foreigner fests could compensate for that. Its that simple, yet you Serral fanboys will never understand, you are too far deluded to acknowledge the truth. | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 02 2020 23:33 MarianoSC2 wrote: Marus 2018 was still better then Serrals, so yes, he was the best Zerg of the year, but not clearly the best player, as his medals compared to Marus were not as great. The rest of your post is yet again irrelevant, just the same BS over and over again. As everyone said by now, no-one cares about eliminations. If two players compete and in the same time period... One of them wins a single S-tier tournament and the other one wins 4, then there really is no comparison to be made between them. No amount of HSC or foreigner fests could compensate for that. Its that simple, yet you Serral fanboys will never understand, you are too far deluded to acknowledge the truth. Interesting that you speak of delusion! Serral won the TL.net Player of the Year 2018 award but you say Maru's year was better so it must be so; Serral wins tournaments, but you declare they are worth nothing, you must be right. No discussion can exist upon these premises, here we agree for real. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 03 2020 02:53 Xain0n wrote: Interesting that you speak of delusion! Serral won the TL.net Player of the Year 2018 award but you say Maru's year was better so it must be so; Serral wins tournaments, but you declare they are worth nothing, you must be right. No discussion can exist upon these premises, here we agree for real. Ah yes. TL's player of the year award, irrefutable proof right here. Remeber when they said Rogue is a patch Zerg who would never win shit again after Blizzcon? That claim had more backing to it than calling WCS welfare queen the player of the year. | ||
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Kertorak
125 Posts
On April 30 2020 12:33 eScaper-tsunami wrote: Because Serral refuses to play in the GSL Umm, sounds arrogant, please stop. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On May 03 2020 00:14 tskarzyn wrote: think it was implied that the interviewer wanted to know who in that studio the players were afraid of. I don’t think this is the case. One or two players said Serral iirc Fact of the matter is that serral has t done anything of note lately (imo and it seems in the opinion of Korea’s finest) that make him the most feared anymore | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On May 01 2020 22:10 tigon_ridge wrote: They show plenty that he would. The top tournaments also shows Maru bombs out of groupstages occasionally; Dark gets his clock cleaned by Rogue consistently, and occasionally by much worse zergs like Elazer, Ragnarok, etc.; and Rogue suffers some combination of both, except with even more vT and vP losses sprinkled in. The top tournaments shows Serral manhandling consistently every Korean player except the guy who seems forbidden by the RNG deity from facing him. Maybe...you're just willfully ignorant? Not the top dogs this year? Wow, you've just insulted Innovation, Dream, Cure, soO, and Solar. And why stop at just this year? Why not include a bit of 2019 at least? Number of tournament wins is not a fucking statistic! The sample size you're talking about is literally a single digit—that's not how statistics works! Good god, what are they teaching kids in school? You must consider bullshitting a competitive sport. You'd win a gold medal for sure. It's not even close. Important to note: Serral's mantel doesn't even include the heads of low-to-mid-tier Koreans. If he played against them, you could probably up his vs-Korean percentages by another couple points. You should look at mainly offline vs korean winrate because that is the highest level of competition and offline performance is a lot more important than online importance. obviously games against non-Korean people like Reynor should be counted too but if there isn't enough time, then use offline vs korean winrate. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 03 2020 05:10 Anc13nt wrote: You should look at mainly offline vs korean winrate because that is the highest level of competition and offline performance is a lot more important than online importance. obviously games against non-Korean people like Reynor should be counted too but if there isn't enough time, then use offline vs korean winrate. Don't bother, Serral fanboys actually think Serral and other players value aligulac higher than actual tournament wins. Xainon even said Serral's consistency in IEM groupstage is worth more than Rogue's 2 wins. When Serral stops winning tournaments, tournaments become irrelevant and ''not even a statistic''. | ||
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Rubicant1
115 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44316 Posts
On May 03 2020 04:38 Kertorak wrote: Umm, sounds arrogant, please stop. Serral is wise to not travel now. Just as wise as he is in sc2. The GSL predates coronavirus. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On May 03 2020 06:44 Rubicant1 wrote: Honestly, Serral opening himself to a ton of criticism by simply throwing (at least somewhat) that series against Reynor at Blizzcon, and then not figuring out the proper response to Zest's hatch block into adept pressures. He's easily got the best current ZvZ (not sure how this is debatable), so he would have had probably a 60%+ chance of winning both those Premiers. He wins either of those, and a lot of this tired debate wouldn't be happening. Alas. He was pretty close to figuring out Zest, remember the 4 lings against 8 adepts? lol | ||
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Rubicant1
115 Posts
On May 03 2020 06:56 Morbidius wrote: He was pretty close to figuring out Zest, remember the 4 lings against 8 adepts? lol Yes, welcome to Starcraft, where people sometimes lose games because they didn't do the right thing. lol | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
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