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On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him.
Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo
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On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo
Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed.
There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive.
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On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo
Yea Bernie shouldn't give up yet. I think he did the best in the recent debates and might regain his momentum if Biden messes something up, e.g. focuses his attacks on silly stuff like "Russians want Bernie to win" or "three houses".
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On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive.
Weird you like Biden chewing out and threatening a voter that asked him a pretty fair question but think Bernie's press secretary making a very placid comment about Biden's policy unnecessarily aggressive, bitter and unproductive.
I take the opposite view on those interactions.
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On March 12 2020 02:59 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Yea Bernie shouldn't give up yet. I think he did the best in the recent debates and might regain his momentum if Biden messes something up, e.g. focuses his attacks on silly stuff like "Russians want Bernie to win" or "three houses".
I doubt even Biden can commit a gaffe big enough to lose the 30+ points in the polls necessary for Sanders to win 65% of the vote in the remaining states (which are generally unfavorable to him) to win the nomination.
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Yes, at this point it looks like Bernie is out. I can't even imagine what would have to happen for Biden to drop out of the race or be voted out. People who look at him and don't see the start of mental decline won't be swayed by anything short of serious life threatening illness. And even then, if the moderates can show that Bernie lost against moderate candidates, it would be quite the argument to then hand the nomination to sanders and not to a moderate endorsed by Biden.
Sadly, Americans are not ready for a more socially fair society.
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On March 12 2020 03:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive. Weird you like Biden chewing out and threatening a voter that asked him a pretty fair question but think Bernie's press secretary making a very placid comment about Biden's policy unnecessarily aggressive, bitter and unproductive. I take the opposite view on those interactions.
I want a candidate that is aggressive towards bad ideas because it is a good fit for our current position in cultural development.
I want a democratic primary that is self-aware. I don't want someone with an extreme disadvantage to be waging war against the clear winner. Bernie can focus entirely on why his policies are a great direction for the country without directly attacking Biden.
In my eyes, it makes sense to attack someone when you are trying to overtake them. Since I am comfortable saying Bernie can't overtake Biden in almost any situation (other than something big that has nothing to do with Bernie), it follows that direct attacks no longer have a benefit. Keep in mind I was totally comfortable with Bernie unleashing on Biden and everyone else just a couple months ago. Early in the primary is when it makes sense for everyone to basically show up to every debate guns blazing. But that's not where we are. The primary has now crystallized. Black People have chosen Biden and young people have chosen not to vote. That's GG.
I totally understand if you disagree and I understand that if you don't think it is over, everything you are saying is fair. But I see it as very over, so all of my thoughts on what comes next are based on the idea that Bernie will not overtake Biden for any Bernie-specific reason. Anything that would actually take down Biden would take him down regardless of what Bernie does. But I won't discourage you from acting as you wish. Everyone has the right to be politically active in whatever way speaks to them.
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On March 12 2020 04:01 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 03:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive. Weird you like Biden chewing out and threatening a voter that asked him a pretty fair question but think Bernie's press secretary making a very placid comment about Biden's policy unnecessarily aggressive, bitter and unproductive. I take the opposite view on those interactions. I want a candidate that is aggressive towards bad ideas because it is a good fit for our current position in cultural development. I want a democratic primary that is self-aware. I don't want someone with an extreme disadvantage to be waging war against the clear winner. Bernie can focus entirely on why his policies are a great direction for the country without directly attacking Biden. In my eyes, it makes sense to attack someone when you are trying to overtake them. Since I am comfortable saying Bernie can't overtake Biden in almost any situation (other than something big that has nothing to do with Bernie), it follows that direct attacks no longer have a benefit. Keep in mind I was totally comfortable with Bernie unleashing on Biden and everyone else just a couple months ago. Early in the primary is when it makes sense for everyone to basically show up to every debate guns blazing. But that's not where we are. The primary has now crystallized. Black People have chosen Biden and young people have chosen not to vote. That's GG. I totally understand if you disagree and I understand that if you don't think it is over, everything you are saying is fair. But I see it as very over, so all of my thoughts on what comes next are based on the idea that Bernie will not overtake Biden for any Bernie-specific reason. Anything that would actually take down Biden would take him down regardless of what Bernie does. But I won't discourage you from acting as you wish. Everyone has the right to be politically active in whatever way speaks to them.
I'd just say if Bernie is the nominee he'd have weathered much worse from other Dems (Biden included even if he was leading right now) than anything he'll throw at Biden and nothing he does will be a fraction as threatening as Trump.
I think if Biden can't handle Bernie's worst (which the comment from his press sec. isn't close to bad imo) he'll get ripped to shreds by Trump.
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Northern Ireland23825 Posts
On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive.
Why does Bernie not really resonate much with black Americans anyway? Suppose I could do some googling and reading but prefer to throw questions in here.
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On March 12 2020 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 04:01 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 03:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive. Weird you like Biden chewing out and threatening a voter that asked him a pretty fair question but think Bernie's press secretary making a very placid comment about Biden's policy unnecessarily aggressive, bitter and unproductive. I take the opposite view on those interactions. I want a candidate that is aggressive towards bad ideas because it is a good fit for our current position in cultural development. I want a democratic primary that is self-aware. I don't want someone with an extreme disadvantage to be waging war against the clear winner. Bernie can focus entirely on why his policies are a great direction for the country without directly attacking Biden. In my eyes, it makes sense to attack someone when you are trying to overtake them. Since I am comfortable saying Bernie can't overtake Biden in almost any situation (other than something big that has nothing to do with Bernie), it follows that direct attacks no longer have a benefit. Keep in mind I was totally comfortable with Bernie unleashing on Biden and everyone else just a couple months ago. Early in the primary is when it makes sense for everyone to basically show up to every debate guns blazing. But that's not where we are. The primary has now crystallized. Black People have chosen Biden and young people have chosen not to vote. That's GG. I totally understand if you disagree and I understand that if you don't think it is over, everything you are saying is fair. But I see it as very over, so all of my thoughts on what comes next are based on the idea that Bernie will not overtake Biden for any Bernie-specific reason. Anything that would actually take down Biden would take him down regardless of what Bernie does. But I won't discourage you from acting as you wish. Everyone has the right to be politically active in whatever way speaks to them. I'd just say if Bernie was the nominee he'd have weathered much worse from other Dems than anything he'll throw at Biden and nothing he does will be a fraction as threatening as Trump. I think if Biden can't handle Bernie's worst (which the comment from his press sec. isn't close to bad imo) he'll get ripped to shreds by Trump.
You're right that Bernie would be treated worse. But that doesn't really change anything. Its just something to note. We don't need to treat people the way they would treat us. We can be better. Bernie certainly is and I admire that about him. He doesn't believe in stuff like eye for an eye.
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On March 12 2020 04:30 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive. Why does Bernie not really resonate much with black Americans anyway? Suppose I could do some googling and reading but prefer to throw questions in here.
I haven't been following super closely so I'd also like to hear what others think. My impression is that he tends to discuss the grievances of black Americans as structural and systemic. Essentially he casts a wide net that catches the racial problem but doesn't clearly articulate it as such. I think his campaign is often failing to frame the racial issue in a way that is personable.
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On March 12 2020 04:38 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 04:01 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 03:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive. Weird you like Biden chewing out and threatening a voter that asked him a pretty fair question but think Bernie's press secretary making a very placid comment about Biden's policy unnecessarily aggressive, bitter and unproductive. I take the opposite view on those interactions. I want a candidate that is aggressive towards bad ideas because it is a good fit for our current position in cultural development. I want a democratic primary that is self-aware. I don't want someone with an extreme disadvantage to be waging war against the clear winner. Bernie can focus entirely on why his policies are a great direction for the country without directly attacking Biden. In my eyes, it makes sense to attack someone when you are trying to overtake them. Since I am comfortable saying Bernie can't overtake Biden in almost any situation (other than something big that has nothing to do with Bernie), it follows that direct attacks no longer have a benefit. Keep in mind I was totally comfortable with Bernie unleashing on Biden and everyone else just a couple months ago. Early in the primary is when it makes sense for everyone to basically show up to every debate guns blazing. But that's not where we are. The primary has now crystallized. Black People have chosen Biden and young people have chosen not to vote. That's GG. I totally understand if you disagree and I understand that if you don't think it is over, everything you are saying is fair. But I see it as very over, so all of my thoughts on what comes next are based on the idea that Bernie will not overtake Biden for any Bernie-specific reason. Anything that would actually take down Biden would take him down regardless of what Bernie does. But I won't discourage you from acting as you wish. Everyone has the right to be politically active in whatever way speaks to them. I'd just say if Bernie was the nominee he'd have weathered much worse from other Dems than anything he'll throw at Biden and nothing he does will be a fraction as threatening as Trump. I think if Biden can't handle Bernie's worst (which the comment from his press sec. isn't close to bad imo) he'll get ripped to shreds by Trump. You're right that Bernie would be treated worse. But that doesn't really change anything. Its just something to note. We don't need to treat people the way they would treat us. We can be better. Bernie certainly is and I admire that about him. He doesn't believe in stuff like eye for an eye.
My point is that it isn't bad and that Trump will be worse so if it is an electoral thing, he needs to endure it and if it isn't, it isn't a substantial reason for Bernie not to be critical of his policy. Not that Bernie had it worse or should engage in some sort of an eye for eye effort.
On March 12 2020 04:30 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive. Why does Bernie not really resonate much with black Americans anyway? Suppose I could do some googling and reading but prefer to throw questions in here.
It's complicated, but basically based on polling of his policy in the party, favorability, and interviews it is largely a voter-pundit electability thing and Biden's tenure under Obama. M4A had majority support in every primary and Biden said he would veto it for example.
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One thing I've read, so take it with a grain of salt: For an old white guy to be the right hand man of a young black guy for 8 years shows a level of respect that Black People are not used to seeing. Biden represents proof of respect whereas Black People have every reason to assume anything else is hot air. It is very common for promises made to people of color to simply not happen. Biden was Obama's dude for 8 years. They feel like they can trust Biden. Basically can't trust anyone else whatsoever.
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On March 12 2020 03:57 Broetchenholer wrote:
Yes, at this point it looks like Bernie is out. I can't even imagine what would have to happen for Biden to drop out of the race or be voted out. People who look at him and don't see the start of mental decline won't be swayed by anything short of serious life threatening illness. And even then, if the moderates can show that Bernie lost against moderate candidates, it would be quite the argument to then hand the nomination to sanders and not to a moderate endorsed by Biden.
Sadly, Americans are not ready for a more socially fair society.
There were a lot of similar posts about Trump in 2 0 1 6 and 2017. Those armchair diagnoses about Biden's mental problems are as unconvincing as those targeted at Trump were. It's impossible to tell someone's showing early signs of dementia from 20 second clips on Twitter.
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Canada8988 Posts
Clinton also crushed Sanders among black voters, she even did a bit better or even in 08 vs Obama than he has done in the past two election cycle from what I can see.
Ethnic minority in the west have a long history of votting more to the center on economic issue and be a bit weary of more radical/revolutionnary politics. Maybe there's something similar among african-american?
Altought I guess they have quite a history of radical politics.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On March 12 2020 04:30 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive. Why does Bernie not really resonate much with black Americans anyway? Suppose I could do some googling and reading but prefer to throw questions in here.
A heavy tendency towards tribal voting, and a resounding endorsement of Biden by the folks most highly respected by the demographic (e.g. Clyburn). Biden’s ties to Obama are very positively regarded here.
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On March 12 2020 04:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 04:38 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 04:01 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 03:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive. Weird you like Biden chewing out and threatening a voter that asked him a pretty fair question but think Bernie's press secretary making a very placid comment about Biden's policy unnecessarily aggressive, bitter and unproductive. I take the opposite view on those interactions. I want a candidate that is aggressive towards bad ideas because it is a good fit for our current position in cultural development. I want a democratic primary that is self-aware. I don't want someone with an extreme disadvantage to be waging war against the clear winner. Bernie can focus entirely on why his policies are a great direction for the country without directly attacking Biden. In my eyes, it makes sense to attack someone when you are trying to overtake them. Since I am comfortable saying Bernie can't overtake Biden in almost any situation (other than something big that has nothing to do with Bernie), it follows that direct attacks no longer have a benefit. Keep in mind I was totally comfortable with Bernie unleashing on Biden and everyone else just a couple months ago. Early in the primary is when it makes sense for everyone to basically show up to every debate guns blazing. But that's not where we are. The primary has now crystallized. Black People have chosen Biden and young people have chosen not to vote. That's GG. I totally understand if you disagree and I understand that if you don't think it is over, everything you are saying is fair. But I see it as very over, so all of my thoughts on what comes next are based on the idea that Bernie will not overtake Biden for any Bernie-specific reason. Anything that would actually take down Biden would take him down regardless of what Bernie does. But I won't discourage you from acting as you wish. Everyone has the right to be politically active in whatever way speaks to them. I'd just say if Bernie was the nominee he'd have weathered much worse from other Dems than anything he'll throw at Biden and nothing he does will be a fraction as threatening as Trump. I think if Biden can't handle Bernie's worst (which the comment from his press sec. isn't close to bad imo) he'll get ripped to shreds by Trump. You're right that Bernie would be treated worse. But that doesn't really change anything. Its just something to note. We don't need to treat people the way they would treat us. We can be better. Bernie certainly is and I admire that about him. He doesn't believe in stuff like eye for an eye. My point is that it isn't bad and that Trump will be worse so if it is an electoral thing, he needs to endure it and if it isn't, it isn't a substantial reason for Bernie not to be critical of his policy. Not that Bernie had it worse or should engage in some sort of an eye for eye effort. Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 04:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive. Why does Bernie not really resonate much with black Americans anyway? Suppose I could do some googling and reading but prefer to throw questions in here. It's complicated, but basically based on polling of his policy in the party, favorability, and interviews it is largely a voter-pundit electability thing and Biden's tenure under Obama. M4A had majority support in every primary and Biden said he would veto it for example.
How religious are you GreenHorizons? That's the major factor I've seen cited elsewhere.
The reality is that "black liberalism" has historically existed hand-in-hand with religious belief, whereas "white liberalism" often exists in opposition to it. In black America, the church is widely perceived as a liberating force - the seed from which the Civil Rights Movement grew. White democrats tend to see it as a source of oppression, particularly during the past decade's fight for LGBT rights. The "alliance" between socially liberal whites and culturally conservative minorities continues to exist, because minorities are not as politically invested in the social issues that have defined the culture war over the last three decades. So while black Americans as a group are actually fairly religious and socially conservative, we differ from white liberals and white conservatives in that these culture-war issues are less likely to influence how we vote.
So in this case at least, it's helpful to think about the other question: not "why don't black democrats find Bernie appealing?" but rather, "why do white democrats like him so much?" My impression has been that for many of Bernie's (mostly young, largely white) voters, Bernie's social liberalism (including his irreligiosity) is a big part of his appeal. He has reaped the benefits of staking out positions on the liberal side of the culture war. But culture war issues don't pay as many dividends in a heavily Protestant black electorate (or a heavily Catholic brown electorate).
Please understand: I'm not saying that that social issues have helped Hillary and harmed Bernie's standing among black voters. I'm saying that they have helped Bernie among white voters but have done him no good among black voters. It just doesn't factor that heavily in the political calculus.
first comment
Your focus is on economic policy, but do people vote on economic policy or social issues?
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Canada5565 Posts
On March 12 2020 04:30 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2020 02:56 Mohdoo wrote:On March 12 2020 02:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 12 2020 02:40 Mohdoo wrote:
The Bernie subreddit has entered that weird stage where all the people who see the writing on the wall are leaving and only the weirdly defiant ones have stuck around. Time to unsub. I really, really hope Bernie doesn't get weird again. He got weird against Clinton towards the end, though he did end up endorsing her.
He isn't winning over Black People, young people aren't voting and Biden is legitimately getting the old folks excited. We are seeing very clearly that "never Clinton" folks were a big part of Bernie's 2016.
Look at Biden's platform and compare it to Clinton's. You can see Bernie's influence all over it. We've made progress. Bernie has impacted the party and it is better because of him. Then Biden does a Biden on the debate stage and his campaign is over again. The only responsible thing for Bernie to do is stay in imo Bernie doesn't need to stay in for him to still be the clear guy to give the nom to if Biden has a stroke or something. I am fine with Bernie continuing to campaign and whatnot, but Bernie's press secretary saying "America finally gets to see Biden defend his ideas, or lack there of, on Sunday", I can't help but roll my eyes. Don't start getting aggressive when you're losing. It's the same thing as 2016. The point when the writing is on the wall, they just get super pissed off and feel robbed. There are a lot of DNC-related things that made me salty this year. But they aren't the reason Black People and young people aren't voting for Bernie. There are all sort of butterfly-effect thought experiments to do, but it doesn't change the situation. I am comfortable with him continuing his campaign so long as he is not directly attack Biden in the way his press secretary is. It is bitter and unproductive. Why does Bernie not really resonate much with black Americans anyway? Suppose I could do some googling and reading but prefer to throw questions in here. It's difficult to pin down but we have data that may help form an explanation:
Black and Asian Democrats and liberals are significantly more supportive of restrictive immigration policies and less positive toward racial/ethnic diversity than their white counterparts. They are also more likely to part ways when it comes to contemporary social and gender-identity issues, including views of the #MeToo movement. They have the highest mean in-group bias by race/ethnicity (while white liberals, for example, have a pro-outgroup bias) Source. Three-quarters of black adults say being black is extremely (52%) or very (22%) important to how they think of themselves Source.
2018 FBI statistics report an over-representation of black people among known hate crime offenders at 24%, while 57.8% of all religious bias crimes (1,550) were anti-Jewish Source. The same year in New York, black people represented 71% of perpetrators arrested for all hate crimes, while anti-Jewish hate crimes increased 78.3% from the previous year to 246. Since the beginning of 2017, black people comprised 56% (61 of 108) of those arrested for anti-LGBT hate crimes Source.
Since its creation in 2015, the National African American Gun Association group has seen rapid growth with roughly 30,000 members and 75 chapters nationwide. Leaders expect another 25 chapters by next year. 24% of African Americans say they personally own a gun. Organizers say it is a civil rights organization that aims to build community and promote self-protection Source. African American support for gun control has fallen 14% from 1993-2015, when it stood at 74%. During that same period, the number of blacks prioritizing gun rights over stricter gun controls nearly doubled from 18% to 34% Source.
The data lead me to believe that black people, broadly speaking, are less in favor of Bernie's so-called progressive policies than white liberals assume and may be less inclined to vote for a Jewish candidate (and more inclined to vote for a black one). There is also a growing black conservative movement led by CJ Pearson, Candace Owens, Kanye, and others. I'm missing a ton of data and would be very interested to see what others post.
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On March 12 2020 07:13 Xxio wrote:
It's difficult to pin down but we have data that may help form an explanation:
Black and Asian Democrats ....
....
...
a growing black conservative movement led by CJ Pearson, Candace Owens, Kanye, and others. I'm missing a ton of data and would be very interested to see what others post.
Sorry for the conspiracy theory guys.. but this is what I see happening with crime and how new statistics definitions can twist the reality of crime problems in NA. I spoilered it so any one can just ignore it.
Crime Statistics and Police Budgets
+ Show Spoiler +All these stats can sound ominous, however, they can be a big part of a rigged game. Violence in Toronto is way, way down compared to 25 years ago. Its been steadily declining since I was 10. I am now almost 33. Me and my entire peer group can feel the difference. So the powers that be now decide to designate randome arm movements or hand gestures or illegible chalk scrawls on school walls as "hate crimes". Yep, because when I was 10 and did that kind of petty vandalism its because our big tough gang of public school tough guys was set to overthrow the western world with our new "nWo" ideology. Be afraid and stay afraid. The 10 year olds are coming to take over. Gimme a break. "Hate Crime" is another artificial layer of BS that allows the ultra rich elite to keep everyone else squabbling with each other. A suspected hate crime like some poor sap holding his hands the wrong way allows the police to strip the average citizen of his basic rights. These rights are suspended while the police "investigate" these "dangerous" hand signals. It helps keep those police budgets sky high. The police can keep on cranking out nice big statistics to justify their ever ballooning budgets. Every time I'm playing basketball and we tie the game and I hold up my fist... that no longer indicates that the game is tied.. That is a "black power" fist. Someone on my team hits a 3 point shot. Well those 3 fingers I'm holding up to let my team mates know what happened... That is actually a white power hand sign. Talk about dumb. This allows the Police to crank out big statistics about suspected "hate crimes". It keeps the average family purchasing extravegent security monitoring services. it keeps people buying super sophisticated anti-theft devices on cars. Basically, keep people afraid and mistrustful of one another... and you create a nice big consumer market. Some weird fucked up loon claims her hijab was cut off by a white man where its dead obvious from day 1 she is lying. Well, let's keep that in the news cycle for 2 months so we can get everyone afraid of everyone else. WTF man? In Toronto the level of violence is way way down compared to 20+ years ago. However, the fear of even a simple fist fight.. is just through the roof compared to 20 years ago. Its just so sad. Everyone is so afraid of each other compared to 20+ years ago. And man.. walking through the worst neighbourhoods in Toronto is like walking thru Board Walk, Park Place, or Pacific Avenue when it comes to violence.
Its sad to see Toronto solve its violence problem while watching its citizens so afraid due to misinformation that positive facts don't matter. These unfounded fears of violent crimes that are not happening .... are a great way to keep police budgets sky high though.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-630-x/11-630-x2015001-eng.htm
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2014/09/02/whats_behind_the_trend_of_declining_crime_rate_in_toronto.html
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Northern Ireland23825 Posts
Cheers for all the responses to my query, interesting stuff to consider there.
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EPT
