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You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
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On October 07 2018 05:43 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 05:16 xDaunt wrote:On October 07 2018 05:06 IgnE wrote:
you know, i feel like your perception is more one-sided than normal on this particular issue. there are actually a lot of deep issues underlying this drama and it doesn't seem like you care much about trying to tease out what they are How can I not be partisan on this one? How can any "conservative" not be? You're an attorney. Though you don't litigate, you know how to look at facts and parse allegations. The Democrats just tried to torpedo a well-qualified judge with three sets of baseless of allegations. All three allegations had internal inconsistencies. None of the three allegations had one shred of independent, corroborative evidence. In fact, all of the independent evidence contradicted each of the allegations. You know as well as I do how to weigh this evidence, and that the only proper conclusion is that it is at least more likely than not that Kavanaugh is innocent of each allegation. Let's just stop here for a moment. How should conservatives respond? Should they abandon a very likely innocent guy to the political wolves? Should they let fundamental values of fairness and due process be eroded for the sake of the mob? Is that really what you're advocating? See I think you are fundamentally misinterpreting what the drama was even about. It was about believability regarding the kind of person Brett Kavanaugh is, and had little to nothing to do with legalistic weighing of evidence with regard to a specific and isolated charge. It had little to do with "qualifications." I don't know what happened back when Brett was in high school, but on balance I think that he was probably a hard-drinking, typically misogynistic jock and asshole. If I believe that much, regardless of whether he sexually assaulted Ford, is that enough to say that I don't think he should be the next supreme court justice? I think probably yes. As you know there are many brilliant lawyers in this country almost all of whom would drop everything at the chance to become a supreme court justice. As for how conservatives should have responded, my understanding is that they had a list of 25ish judges that were basically all equivalent in judicial terms. Perhaps they should have quickly torpedoed any candidate themselves that met any resistance and just put up another? You think the Dems could have brought unseemly allegations against all 25? So why him? Because the democrats played politics and tried to control the release of allegations from a woman who by all accounts firmly believes she was assaulted by Brett back in high school? Don't give me something like, "it's the principle of the thing." Sorry, but the prestige and legitimacy of the Court was and has been under fire since long before Kavanaugh. Any person worthy of being placed there would know that appearances matter. This whole drama has been a referendum on what kinds of people are allowed to be on the Supreme Court. You should read that with full understanding of the implicit tension inherent to it. What kinds of people are allowed on the Supreme Court? Who is actually nominated and confirmed? Who are these people deciding whether abortion is constitutionally protected? The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. I do think that there's a possible world in which Kavanaugh met this criticism and appropriately addressed it. That is not the one we are living in.
I'm not misinterpreting anything. I'm staying focused on the real problem -- what the Democrats did -- which you are downplaying. Let's just presume for a second that the charge you made above is grounds for objecting to the appointment. The reality is that pretty much no one cares about it, because the injection of the baseless rape allegations into the debate sucked up all of the oxygen. Wouldn't you have liked Kavanaugh's potential alcoholic behavior to have been better vetted or openly discussed? Thank the Democrats for throwing away that opportunity. But again, the real damage isn't the opportunity cost. The real damage is what has been done to the prestige of our institutions and the values that I described above. You certainly seem to understand that this stuff matters, so you should be openly condemning what the Democrats did. Likewise, your analysis of the conservative options misses the mark. Abandoning Kavanaugh and appointing someone else would only further degrade discourse and our institutions as Danglars pointed out. I'm sure that Trump could have put forward a different, "cleaner" nominee than Kavanaugh. But doing so would have done only done more damage than keeping him, if for no other reason than it would have further emboldened horrific political tactics and mob rule.
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It's not mob rule for senators to reject candidates that the people they represent reject for obvious character flaws.
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On October 07 2018 07:11 IgnE wrote:
It's not mob rule for senators to reject candidates that the people they represent reject for obvious character flaws.
It is mob rule when the decision is being made on and derived from baseless allegations of rape.
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On October 07 2018 07:31 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:11 IgnE wrote:
It's not mob rule for senators to reject candidates that the people they represent reject for obvious character flaws. It is mob rule when the decision is being made on and derived from baseless allegations of rape.
"baseless" is not the word you're looking for.
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On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry.
I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc.
Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion.
The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many.
This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool.
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On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. Show nested quote +The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool.
You know the guy was part of a frat notorious for the entitled, misogynistic jerks?
So it's more like assuming a gang member has a past that resembles other members of the gang.
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On October 07 2018 07:47 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:31 xDaunt wrote:On October 07 2018 07:11 IgnE wrote:
It's not mob rule for senators to reject candidates that the people they represent reject for obvious character flaws. It is mob rule when the decision is being made on and derived from baseless allegations of rape. "baseless" is not the word you're looking for.
When the allegations are made with internal inconsistencies and contradicted by all known independent evidence, baseless is the right word.
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On October 07 2018 07:55 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:47 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 07 2018 07:31 xDaunt wrote:On October 07 2018 07:11 IgnE wrote:
It's not mob rule for senators to reject candidates that the people they represent reject for obvious character flaws. It is mob rule when the decision is being made on and derived from baseless allegations of rape. "baseless" is not the word you're looking for. When the allegations are made with internal inconsistencies and contradicted by all known independent evidence, baseless is the right word.
Nah, if there weren't facts supporting that she did go to the school (that frequently interacted with BK's), that she knew the guy, etc. are all relevant facts moving it out from baseless.
Baseless would be how we should describe if someone with no connection or facts supporting they could have even interacted and so on. Like if I claimed Kavanaugh sexually assaulted me, that would be baseless.
As to the entitlement, I mean I know people who had their entire lives thrashed for MIP's. That Kavanaugh bragged about illegal activity in his high school yearbook and thinks he should be a SCJ screams entitled asshole to me.
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Sort of a technicality but as far as the record shows, without Manchin ("D"-WV), the vote fails today.
If Manchin does actually get kicked out of the party for this (probably not happening) that makes the whole Democratic party backing him in his primary a complete and total waste, well I guess not a waste so much as having prevented a progressive from gaining traction and ensuring WV was Republican no matter who won.
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On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. Show nested quote +The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool.
We got to look into his early life and see that, while he was not a rapist or sexually assaulting anyone, he was not a great person. He constantly had to make up shit excuses for what was obviously just plain old assholery in his yearbook. This isn't just bias; the hearing and investigations gave us an okay idea of what Brett Kavanaugh was like when he wasn't out of college, and it wasn't pretty. Yes, it wasn't illegal, but it's also not the kind of thing me and Igne want to see out of someone holding a life seat on the highest court in the country.
There are plenty of kids in preppy high school environments that manage to come out looking like some kind of golden child, and that's not really a good reason to hate someone, as you've made clear multiple times; those golden kids, even if you have a bias against them, are the kind of people you would reluctantly do a group project with. Young Brett Kavanaugh sounds like the kind of person who would flake out, get blackout drunk, and tell you that he was busy working on something with his family after you'd already heard all the stories about how wild that party was. The kind of person you'd try to get out of a group with, because at least the other kids will do their work. I don't want someone who I wouldn't trust to do a group project to decide controversial rulings for many people across the country.
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On October 07 2018 08:14 Howie_Dewitt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. We got to look into his early life and see that, while he was not a rapist or sexually assaulting anyone, he was not a great person. He constantly had to make up shit excuses for what was obviously just plain old assholery in his yearbook. This isn't just bias; the hearing and investigations gave us an okay idea of what Brett Kavanaugh was like when he wasn't out of college, and it wasn't pretty. Yes, it wasn't illegal, but it's also not the kind of thing me and Igne want to see out of someone holding a life seat on the highest court in the country. There are plenty of kids in preppy high school environments that manage to come out looking like some kind of golden child, and that's not really a good reason to hate someone, as you've made clear multiple times; those golden kids, even if you have a bias against them, are the kind of people you would reluctantly do a group project with. Young Brett Kavanaugh sounds like the kind of person who would flake out, get blackout drunk, and tell you that he was busy working on something with his family after you'd already heard all the stories about how wild that party was. The kind of person you'd try to get out of a group with, because at least the other kids will do their work. I don't want someone who I wouldn't trust to do a group project to decide controversial rulings for many people across the country.
What? You don’t want the guy who graduated at the top of his class and always had exemplary grades in your group? Are you sure you are describing the right person?
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On October 07 2018 08:25 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 08:14 Howie_Dewitt wrote:On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. We got to look into his early life and see that, while he was not a rapist or sexually assaulting anyone, he was not a great person. He constantly had to make up shit excuses for what was obviously just plain old assholery in his yearbook. This isn't just bias; the hearing and investigations gave us an okay idea of what Brett Kavanaugh was like when he wasn't out of college, and it wasn't pretty. Yes, it wasn't illegal, but it's also not the kind of thing me and Igne want to see out of someone holding a life seat on the highest court in the country. There are plenty of kids in preppy high school environments that manage to come out looking like some kind of golden child, and that's not really a good reason to hate someone, as you've made clear multiple times; those golden kids, even if you have a bias against them, are the kind of people you would reluctantly do a group project with. Young Brett Kavanaugh sounds like the kind of person who would flake out, get blackout drunk, and tell you that he was busy working on something with his family after you'd already heard all the stories about how wild that party was. The kind of person you'd try to get out of a group with, because at least the other kids will do their work. I don't want someone who I wouldn't trust to do a group project to decide controversial rulings for many people across the country. What? You don’t want the guy who graduated at the top of his class and always had exemplary grades in your group? Are you sure you are describing the right person?
If he was the athlete I've heard about and his teachers were anything like mine then definitely not. Did he even actually have exemplary grades? Or was that something people just heard and repeated?
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On October 07 2018 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. You know the guy was part of a frat notorious for the entitled, misogynistic jerks? So it's more like assuming a gang member has a past that resembles other members of the gang.
He's gone faster than a bullet if he was ever connected to these your allegations of notorious frat behavior. The reason the best weapon they could find was a barfight where he threw ice was because they tried and failed to put some frat smear onto him.
On October 07 2018 08:14 Howie_Dewitt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. We got to look into his early life and see that, while he was not a rapist or sexually assaulting anyone, he was not a great person. He constantly had to make up shit excuses for what was obviously just plain old assholery in his yearbook. This isn't just bias; the hearing and investigations gave us an okay idea of what Brett Kavanaugh was like when he wasn't out of college, and it wasn't pretty. Yes, it wasn't illegal, but it's also not the kind of thing me and Igne want to see out of someone holding a life seat on the highest court in the country. There are plenty of kids in preppy high school environments that manage to come out looking like some kind of golden child, and that's not really a good reason to hate someone, as you've made clear multiple times; those golden kids, even if you have a bias against them, are the kind of people you would reluctantly do a group project with. Young Brett Kavanaugh sounds like the kind of person who would flake out, get blackout drunk, and tell you that he was busy working on something with his family after you'd already heard all the stories about how wild that party was. The kind of person you'd try to get out of a group with, because at least the other kids will do their work. I don't want someone who I wouldn't trust to do a group project to decide controversial rulings for many people across the country.
Just a common guy regretful and embarassed that he drank so much at 18 and in his college years. I'm going to try and be more conciliatory here because he won and in the craziness I might've missed a news story or section of testimony (that happened during work for me). The best of the yearbooks was drinking games. Yearbooks and calendars were a typical teenage mess of in-jokes and fun. Again, maybe I missed something. I still saw the stereotype dragged out as a kind of banner under which nobody would look closer to see if he was a bad person in addition to being a partier.
I think you get my perspective pretty right. I haven't seen enough of a reason to hate the person because some other people hate the person's social class and upbringing.
If I was in high school, or a Freshman or Sophomore in College, I might stay away, based solely on the stereotype of jocks that like to drink. In that case, I would be a peer of him, also young, and stereotypes are useful at the basic level to protect yourself from wasted time and headaches. For a 53-year-old, I'd look to his career. All two or so decades of his career. I'd totally still look to see if he was arrested for drugs, property damage, assault and battery, and indecent exposure in his youth. What I wouldn't do is have a friend of a friend tell me that one story about what happened with a keg and a balcony, and be wondering if he's secretly a middle aged frat boy. It just really stinks of partisanship and factionalism, but I'm really trying to presume this is a genuine nonpartisan worry. My moral reckoning is you're responsible for your own actions, not the reputation other people think your Frat has achieved, not what people think about white jocks at elite private schools, just your actions. The race and class and social circle taint is not so overpowering of a smell to make individuals too problematic to trust.
Suit yourself if you're the boss and are thinking about hiring him onto your company. I'm not preaching that you have to abandon your stereotypes. I just need more evidence to be persuaded it's a good plan to fail to give him the benefit of the doubt. I've seen the flip side, how unfounded gossip has destroyed the character of good man, and behind it all was a person looking for advancement or a rejected date. I really seek to weigh the sides to not privilege the gossiper and rumor-spreader out of overcaution or playing it ridiculously safe. I'm also not willing to conclude he was "not a great person" based on what I've read and heard. I'm prepared to change that if he did routinely get blackout drunk instead of overdrink, or harassed women in his drunkenness, who have remained silent afterwards. If you hold to your standard of rumor and "kind of people" for the Supreme Court, I simply don't agree, and don't really fault you for holding to your beliefs at what kind of person you won't to serve as judge on that court.
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On October 07 2018 08:51 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. You know the guy was part of a frat notorious for the entitled, misogynistic jerks? So it's more like assuming a gang member has a past that resembles other members of the gang. He's gone faster than a bullet if he was ever connected to these your allegations of notorious frat behavior. The reason the best weapon they could find was a barfight where he threw ice was because they tried and failed to put some frat smear onto him. Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 08:14 Howie_Dewitt wrote:On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. We got to look into his early life and see that, while he was not a rapist or sexually assaulting anyone, he was not a great person. He constantly had to make up shit excuses for what was obviously just plain old assholery in his yearbook. This isn't just bias; the hearing and investigations gave us an okay idea of what Brett Kavanaugh was like when he wasn't out of college, and it wasn't pretty. Yes, it wasn't illegal, but it's also not the kind of thing me and Igne want to see out of someone holding a life seat on the highest court in the country. There are plenty of kids in preppy high school environments that manage to come out looking like some kind of golden child, and that's not really a good reason to hate someone, as you've made clear multiple times; those golden kids, even if you have a bias against them, are the kind of people you would reluctantly do a group project with. Young Brett Kavanaugh sounds like the kind of person who would flake out, get blackout drunk, and tell you that he was busy working on something with his family after you'd already heard all the stories about how wild that party was. The kind of person you'd try to get out of a group with, because at least the other kids will do their work. I don't want someone who I wouldn't trust to do a group project to decide controversial rulings for many people across the country. Just a common guy regretful and embarassed that he drank so much at 18 and in his college years. I'm going to try and be more conciliatory here because he won and in the craziness I might've missed a news story or section of testimony (that happened during work for me). The best of the yearbooks was drinking games. Yearbooks and calendars were a typical teenage mess of in-jokes and fun. Again, maybe I missed something. I still saw the stereotype dragged out as a kind of banner under which nobody would look closer to see if he was a bad person in addition to being a partier. I think you get my perspective pretty right. I haven't seen enough of a reason to hate the person because some other people hate the person's social class and upbringing. If I was in high school, or a Freshman or Sophomore in College, I might stay away, based solely on the stereotype of jocks that like to drink. In that case, I would be a peer of him, also young, and stereotypes are useful at the basic level to protect yourself from wasted time and headaches. For a 53-year-old, I'd look to his career. All two or so decades of his career. I'd totally still look to see if he was arrested for drugs, property damage, assault and battery, and indecent exposure in his youth. What I wouldn't do is have a friend of a friend tell me that one story about what happened with a keg and a balcony, and be wondering if he's secretly a middle aged frat boy. It just really stinks of partisanship and factionalism, but I'm really trying to presume this is a genuine nonpartisan worry. My moral reckoning is you're responsible for your own actions, not the reputation other people think your Frat has achieved, not what people think about white jocks at elite private schools, just your actions. The race and class and social circle taint is not so overpowering of a smell to make individuals too problematic to trust. Suit yourself if you're the boss and are thinking about hiring him onto your company. I'm not preaching that you have to abandon your stereotypes. I just need more evidence to be persuaded it's a good plan to fail to give him the benefit of the doubt. I've seen the flip side, how unfounded gossip has destroyed the character of good man, and behind it all was a person looking for advancement or a rejected date. I really seek to weigh the sides to not privilege the gossiper and rumor-spreader out of overcaution or playing it ridiculously safe. I'm also not willing to conclude he was "not a great person" based on what I've read and heard. I'm prepared to change that if he did routinely get blackout drunk instead of overdrink, or harassed women in his drunkenness, who have remained silent afterwards. If you hold to your standard of rumor and "kind of people" for the Supreme Court, I simply don't agree, and don't really fault you for holding to your beliefs at what kind of person you won't to serve as judge on that court.
You know him and David cop-a-feel were part of the same frat, then he went on to work for cop-a-feel's son. Judging by the reference Bush sr. used when he sexually assaults women it's not a new activity. Turning a blind eye to sexually abusing women isn't some aberration, it's definitively something they did for decades.
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On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. Show nested quote +The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool.
youre just off the range on this. you can be 1) entitled 2) privileged 3) get good grades and 4) work hard
this isnt bigotry. im not reasoning from group to individual, but the reverse. like GH says, this is like finding out someone is in the M13 gang and concluding that they are probably dangerous. you seem to think i think this way because brett is white. as if i were concluding that because he is from central america he was in M13. thats something trump does, but not me. i am concluding he was an asshole based on evidence of individual behavior that he did not (and could not) refute
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On October 07 2018 09:08 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 08:51 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. You know the guy was part of a frat notorious for the entitled, misogynistic jerks? So it's more like assuming a gang member has a past that resembles other members of the gang. He's gone faster than a bullet if he was ever connected to these your allegations of notorious frat behavior. The reason the best weapon they could find was a barfight where he threw ice was because they tried and failed to put some frat smear onto him. On October 07 2018 08:14 Howie_Dewitt wrote:On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. We got to look into his early life and see that, while he was not a rapist or sexually assaulting anyone, he was not a great person. He constantly had to make up shit excuses for what was obviously just plain old assholery in his yearbook. This isn't just bias; the hearing and investigations gave us an okay idea of what Brett Kavanaugh was like when he wasn't out of college, and it wasn't pretty. Yes, it wasn't illegal, but it's also not the kind of thing me and Igne want to see out of someone holding a life seat on the highest court in the country. There are plenty of kids in preppy high school environments that manage to come out looking like some kind of golden child, and that's not really a good reason to hate someone, as you've made clear multiple times; those golden kids, even if you have a bias against them, are the kind of people you would reluctantly do a group project with. Young Brett Kavanaugh sounds like the kind of person who would flake out, get blackout drunk, and tell you that he was busy working on something with his family after you'd already heard all the stories about how wild that party was. The kind of person you'd try to get out of a group with, because at least the other kids will do their work. I don't want someone who I wouldn't trust to do a group project to decide controversial rulings for many people across the country. Just a common guy regretful and embarassed that he drank so much at 18 and in his college years. I'm going to try and be more conciliatory here because he won and in the craziness I might've missed a news story or section of testimony (that happened during work for me). The best of the yearbooks was drinking games. Yearbooks and calendars were a typical teenage mess of in-jokes and fun. Again, maybe I missed something. I still saw the stereotype dragged out as a kind of banner under which nobody would look closer to see if he was a bad person in addition to being a partier. I think you get my perspective pretty right. I haven't seen enough of a reason to hate the person because some other people hate the person's social class and upbringing. If I was in high school, or a Freshman or Sophomore in College, I might stay away, based solely on the stereotype of jocks that like to drink. In that case, I would be a peer of him, also young, and stereotypes are useful at the basic level to protect yourself from wasted time and headaches. For a 53-year-old, I'd look to his career. All two or so decades of his career. I'd totally still look to see if he was arrested for drugs, property damage, assault and battery, and indecent exposure in his youth. What I wouldn't do is have a friend of a friend tell me that one story about what happened with a keg and a balcony, and be wondering if he's secretly a middle aged frat boy. It just really stinks of partisanship and factionalism, but I'm really trying to presume this is a genuine nonpartisan worry. My moral reckoning is you're responsible for your own actions, not the reputation other people think your Frat has achieved, not what people think about white jocks at elite private schools, just your actions. The race and class and social circle taint is not so overpowering of a smell to make individuals too problematic to trust. Suit yourself if you're the boss and are thinking about hiring him onto your company. I'm not preaching that you have to abandon your stereotypes. I just need more evidence to be persuaded it's a good plan to fail to give him the benefit of the doubt. I've seen the flip side, how unfounded gossip has destroyed the character of good man, and behind it all was a person looking for advancement or a rejected date. I really seek to weigh the sides to not privilege the gossiper and rumor-spreader out of overcaution or playing it ridiculously safe. I'm also not willing to conclude he was "not a great person" based on what I've read and heard. I'm prepared to change that if he did routinely get blackout drunk instead of overdrink, or harassed women in his drunkenness, who have remained silent afterwards. If you hold to your standard of rumor and "kind of people" for the Supreme Court, I simply don't agree, and don't really fault you for holding to your beliefs at what kind of person you won't to serve as judge on that court. You know him and David cop-a-feel were part of the same frat, then he went on to work for cop-a-feel's son. Judging by the reference Bush sr. used when he sexually assaults women it's not a new activity. Turning a blind eye to sexually abusing women isn't some aberration, it's definitively something they did for decades.
The George H. W. Bush connection is a conspiracy theory I hadn't really heard yet, but thanks for bringing it to my attention.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On October 07 2018 08:14 Howie_Dewitt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. We got to look into his early life and see that, while he was not a rapist or sexually assaulting anyone, he was not a great person. He constantly had to make up shit excuses for what was obviously just plain old assholery in his yearbook. This isn't just bias; the hearing and investigations gave us an okay idea of what Brett Kavanaugh was like when he wasn't out of college, and it wasn't pretty. Yes, it wasn't illegal, but it's also not the kind of thing me and Igne want to see out of someone holding a life seat on the highest court in the country.
Well if it isn't about something illegal and unforgivable in high school like rape... is there any thought about that maybe we should look at the deeds of the person who existed after high school? Perhaps look to his decades of experience as a judge to see how the rest of his life defines his character? Fuck, even I wouldn't want to be judged by the person I was in high school, because it would at the same time be embarrassing and irrelevant even if you couldn't point to something immediately wrong.
And there's the thing: maybe they should have done so, look at his tenure as a judge to determine his validity for the position on the highest court in the land. But instead, the Democrats threw their lot in with non-credible rape allegations, immediately negating the relevance of any of the other aspects of his qualification or lack thereof for this role, and when nothing came of that any of the other stuff just didn't matter. And now your best argument is "well yeah maybe the rape stuff was bunk but look at how he wasn't a golden child in high school!" No thanks.
Incidentally, that reminds me of a similar discussion about Obama and Romney in their high school/college years. Obama smoked weed (and possibly more than that?) and Romney dressed up as a police officer to fake arrest people. Want to hold that against them too, or should we have looked at the people they were in their working years instead?
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On October 07 2018 09:13 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2018 09:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 07 2018 08:51 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. You know the guy was part of a frat notorious for the entitled, misogynistic jerks? So it's more like assuming a gang member has a past that resembles other members of the gang. He's gone faster than a bullet if he was ever connected to these your allegations of notorious frat behavior. The reason the best weapon they could find was a barfight where he threw ice was because they tried and failed to put some frat smear onto him. On October 07 2018 08:14 Howie_Dewitt wrote:On October 07 2018 07:48 Danglars wrote:On October 07 2018 07:07 IgnE wrote:
You know it's not bigotry to dislike assholes right?
Presuming him to have been a "misogynistic jerk and asshole" absolutely is. You think he's white and entitled and probably a misogynistic jerk and asshole. It's not too different than seeing a black candidate for office, and presume he's a misogynistic rapper, gang-banger, and asshole. At least you aren't calling him entitled, but you think you know enough about him or his type to conclude he's an asshole on the balance. That's the very essence of prejudice and bigotry. I'd say the same to any KKK guy that says he dislikes blacks from inner cities based on them being assholes etc. Contrary to your point, your individual reliance on group stereotypes of jocks and heavy drinking absolutely gets down the principle of the matter. I totally expect people that call so and so an asshole to have something specific to that individual to make the conclusion. The whole thing has been a referendum on entitled white boys, born with a host of economic, educational, and social privileges, who acted like assholes for a significant portion of their lives and whether or not they should be the ones making decisions of such importance for so many. This is a hill I'm willing to die on. Group prejudice against whites, or some version of entitlement (He'll say he earned top of his class and captain of the various sports teams, so perhaps you're just lying to yourself about what entitlement means), is no reason to throw up your hands and say this is all just some referendum on "true" social prejudice. It's all about flatly rejecting bias against certain groups EVEN if it's culturally accepted that hatred towards DC preppies is totally cool. We got to look into his early life and see that, while he was not a rapist or sexually assaulting anyone, he was not a great person. He constantly had to make up shit excuses for what was obviously just plain old assholery in his yearbook. This isn't just bias; the hearing and investigations gave us an okay idea of what Brett Kavanaugh was like when he wasn't out of college, and it wasn't pretty. Yes, it wasn't illegal, but it's also not the kind of thing me and Igne want to see out of someone holding a life seat on the highest court in the country. There are plenty of kids in preppy high school environments that manage to come out looking like some kind of golden child, and that's not really a good reason to hate someone, as you've made clear multiple times; those golden kids, even if you have a bias against them, are the kind of people you would reluctantly do a group project with. Young Brett Kavanaugh sounds like the kind of person who would flake out, get blackout drunk, and tell you that he was busy working on something with his family after you'd already heard all the stories about how wild that party was. The kind of person you'd try to get out of a group with, because at least the other kids will do their work. I don't want someone who I wouldn't trust to do a group project to decide controversial rulings for many people across the country. Just a common guy regretful and embarassed that he drank so much at 18 and in his college years. I'm going to try and be more conciliatory here because he won and in the craziness I might've missed a news story or section of testimony (that happened during work for me). The best of the yearbooks was drinking games. Yearbooks and calendars were a typical teenage mess of in-jokes and fun. Again, maybe I missed something. I still saw the stereotype dragged out as a kind of banner under which nobody would look closer to see if he was a bad person in addition to being a partier. I think you get my perspective pretty right. I haven't seen enough of a reason to hate the person because some other people hate the person's social class and upbringing. If I was in high school, or a Freshman or Sophomore in College, I might stay away, based solely on the stereotype of jocks that like to drink. In that case, I would be a peer of him, also young, and stereotypes are useful at the basic level to protect yourself from wasted time and headaches. For a 53-year-old, I'd look to his career. All two or so decades of his career. I'd totally still look to see if he was arrested for drugs, property damage, assault and battery, and indecent exposure in his youth. What I wouldn't do is have a friend of a friend tell me that one story about what happened with a keg and a balcony, and be wondering if he's secretly a middle aged frat boy. It just really stinks of partisanship and factionalism, but I'm really trying to presume this is a genuine nonpartisan worry. My moral reckoning is you're responsible for your own actions, not the reputation other people think your Frat has achieved, not what people think about white jocks at elite private schools, just your actions. The race and class and social circle taint is not so overpowering of a smell to make individuals too problematic to trust. Suit yourself if you're the boss and are thinking about hiring him onto your company. I'm not preaching that you have to abandon your stereotypes. I just need more evidence to be persuaded it's a good plan to fail to give him the benefit of the doubt. I've seen the flip side, how unfounded gossip has destroyed the character of good man, and behind it all was a person looking for advancement or a rejected date. I really seek to weigh the sides to not privilege the gossiper and rumor-spreader out of overcaution or playing it ridiculously safe. I'm also not willing to conclude he was "not a great person" based on what I've read and heard. I'm prepared to change that if he did routinely get blackout drunk instead of overdrink, or harassed women in his drunkenness, who have remained silent afterwards. If you hold to your standard of rumor and "kind of people" for the Supreme Court, I simply don't agree, and don't really fault you for holding to your beliefs at what kind of person you won't to serve as judge on that court. You know him and David cop-a-feel were part of the same frat, then he went on to work for cop-a-feel's son. Judging by the reference Bush sr. used when he sexually assaults women it's not a new activity. Turning a blind eye to sexually abusing women isn't some aberration, it's definitively something they did for decades. The George H. W. Bush connection is a conspiracy theory I hadn't really heard yet, but thanks for bringing it to my attention.
No conspiracy theory, just that he's part of a group of assholes that abuse women and turn a blind eye when they see it done. He also lobbied to put him on the court.
Incidentally, that reminds me of a similar discussion about Obama and Romney in their high school/college years. Obama smoked weed (and possibly more than that?) and Romney dressed up as a police officer to fake arrest people. Want to hold that against them too, or should we have looked at the people they were in their working years instead?
To the general concept I agree, but then we should all be trying to restore voting rights for people convicted of stealing ~$300 worth of stuff in high school/college. Are we all in agreement on that?
Regardless, I take those things into consideration, just smoking cannabis and fake arresting people tell me very different things and I'd pick the weed smoker 100/100 times.
Also Brett Kavanaugh should pay for every minor's MIP tickets and serve any jail time they get for following their Supreme Court Justice role model's example.
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obama smoking weed made him more likable. what are you smoking?
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On October 07 2018 09:20 IgnE wrote:
obama smoking weed made him more likable. what are you smoking?
He said in his autobiography that he drank/partied heavily. I think he also may have done other stuff, but my recollection of such trivialities is a little fuzzy.
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EPT
