On May 15 2018 00:21 ggsimida wrote: Is there an option called "none"?
Seriously not one of the supposed top zerg players give me any hope for the race in the near future
JD is getting on with the age and his wrist is busted
Effort doesn't give a damn about offline tourneys ever since his vnsl win over bisu a few years back
Hero shown good form lately but nothing so far has persuade me that he is anything more than the "good in zvp mediocre in everything else" limited potential player hes always been. Plus hes leaving for army soon so byebye form!
Larva lul. A certified Flash punching bag does not automatically make you a title contender
Soulkey slow player. Feel like if he had JD/effort mechanics he would be top maybe.
On May 15 2018 00:14 Ty2 wrote: Why is no one talking about zelot?
I know every build of his and their nuances. Im a secret admirer of his come fite me
People being in denial about herO being a legitimate contender for the title of the best zerg at the moment, reminds me of the time when Kal won KeSPA Protoss of the Year Award in 2010. People were so depressed about the fact that the best performing protoss player didn't even come close to inspiring hope for the race, that they reminisced about the past while rejecting the notion that Kal was objectively speaking the best performing protoss player for that particular year.
It doesn't matter if the best isn't good enough. herO is currently the highest rated zerg player according to the ELO ranking based on online sponsored games results, as well as being the best performing zerg in the past five seasons of the AfreecaTV StarLeagues. People shouldn't ignore results just because the end narrative is dull and lifeless. Sometimes competition is dull and lifeless, but people definitely should stay away from trying to conjure up imaginary alternate universes where things are more volatile and exciting.
I just wish people stopped ignoring competitive results just because accepting that reality leads to uninspiring narratives.
yes statiscally speaking hero is the best zerg right now. its something anyone with access to a database can immediately say. but people have their own notion and vision of what kind of play and results a "best zerg" should display.
poeple reminisce the past not just for the sake of it, but it reminds them how certain players are able to push the boundaries of what a certain race is capable of. 08-09 JD is great example, not just a statistic bonjwa but a complete beast in every facet of his play. current hero is statistically "the best zerg today" but none of his play shows anything fanciful or remarkable that makes one go "wow" when you watch him play. You may not agree with this definition but at least show some respect for other BW fans who are emotionally invested in the game, rather than just constantly slating and trolling them for no good reason like you did with pauline.
What a "best zerg" "should" or "should not" display is highly subjective. Not to mention that, once again, focusing on past results still does not indicate who is the best "now". "Should" means something entirely subjective. The results, which you yourself have acknowledged indicate hero is the best zero now, are not subjective. The results actually matter.
because i think the whole point of this thread is to open up discussion on best zerg today subjective/objective based.
because going by statistics/results ALONE its obvious who the best zerg is today. There Mr. OptaBroodwar has showed us the statistics, everyone can just shut up and leave, mods can just close this thread already. theres no place for one's opinions even in threads like this, really??
how boring.
On May 15 2018 11:25 Letmelose wrote: Respect goes both ways. Slating a bullshit derogatory comment towards a player by using statistics may seem meaningless to you, but I'd much rather face facts than discussing our feelings towards various players with complete disregard for their actual results.
its not about respect for hero here, its respect for other posters. all i see from your post to pauline is "fuck your emotional attachment to effort, muh winrates is the only thing that matters (even if hero juest 3 hatch hydra all his games)"
also noone is showing disregard for actual results, people have their own opinion of who their "best zerg" even knowing about actual results. you say broodwar is merely about competition, well i disagree, it has fine art aspect to it that goes beyond mere winning and losing. otherwise you will only see every BW fans support Flash, but in reality they don't.
When a poster bases his entire argument to support his outlandish claims (with derogatory comments towards a player) on past subjective impressions from a time-frame that isn't even relevant to the discussion, yes, I would say that is having complete disregard for competitive results.
Brood War isn't just about results, but when you ignore results entirely, that becomes a problem. What are we discussing here? How watching EffOrt's online games from 2017 makes people swoon? Or the best zerg today? I thought we were discussing the latter.
his love for effort may have made him a little blind to hero's recent development (i mean if you are a diehard effort fan you would be watching his stream almost all of the time, not hero's) but im pretty sure pauline is well aware of hero's results. just that in his eyes he sees effort as his very own "best zerg player" thats all.
title of this thread is "best zerg today". if the title is "best zerg today by winrate/results" or even "best peforming zerg today" then yes, you win this thread. but now with an ambiguous title there are certainly many kind of viewpoints you can take for "best", no?
On May 15 2018 12:45 Alpha-NP- wrote: Letmelose are other players not allowed to have an opinion if it differs from yours?
I'm all for good discussion involving intangible metrics too. Like how EffOrt was heavily influenced by herO's non-starting position expansion into hydralisk focused play, and how EffOrt himself said that he bench-marked herO's style of zerg-versus-protoss to get better at the match-up. EffOrt used to prefer hive-based starting position expansion play, but modified his play-style after watching herO.
There is a subtle art to how herO plays the zerg-versus-protoss match-up. He takes advantage of the fact that most protoss players go for corsairs, and has some of the most abusive builds and knows better than any zergs when to power drones at the appropriate timings, and when to stop. If EffOrt is a virtuoso at the zerg-versus-terran match-up, herO is a virtuoso at the zerg-versus-protoss match-up, and has heavily influenced the way the match-up was played in the streaming era of Brood War.
One of the finer arts of Brood War is optimizing worker count. Flash has that down to a science. BeSt has that down to a science. herO is currently the master of that particular art-form for the zerg race, and his talents can be best seen in his famed zerg-versus-protoss match-up (since worker optimization is relatively less important for the other two match-ups). It is also the major reasons why herO has adapted better to the 1-1-1 strategy better than EffOrt, who was vastly superior at the match-up when facing a more conventional play-style.
If anyone wondered why these kind of players have so much units. It is not because they click on gateways or larvas any faster. JangBi was way better at producing units from gateways in a sweeping manner than BeSt ever was, but in terms of having the correct macro-management set-up, BeSt was head and shoulders above him. I don't know why people want to paint herO as some mindless hydralisk spammer when he has one of the most scientific approaches to the match-up.
I just don't like inane conversations discussing which players made you swoon the most. Especially if such base way of thinking is used to disparage successful players who worked hard to reach that goal.
On May 14 2018 00:58 Letmelose wrote: We already know who has the best results in tournaments. It is hero. He also happens to have the highest ELO rating out of any zergs in online sponsored matches (although it changes quite often) as of today.
Who performed the best online during the past year (May 2017) versus the very top end players?
Who performed the best versus Bisu (those who played more than 30 online matches against him during the past year), the undisputed king of PvZ?
1. EffOrt: 54.3% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 2. Jaedong: 44.1% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 3. Larva: 43.1% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 4. herO: 40.0% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 5. Soulkey: 38.2% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017
Who performed the best versus Flash (those who played more than 30 online matches against him during the past year), the undisputed king of the current Brood War scene?
1. Soulkey: 34.8% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 2. EffOrt: 31.9% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 3. herO: 28.9% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 4. Larva: 26.8% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 5. Jaedong: 17.6% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017
Who performed the best versus Jaedong (those who played more than 20 online matches against him during the past year), who still is probably the best mirror match-up player?
1. EffOrt: 47.7% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017 2. herO: 44.7% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017 3. Larva: 42.9% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017 4. Soulkey: 32.4% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017
I don't know why people extrapolate Soulkey's tremendous zerg-versus-terran abilities as if it was representative of his overall strengths as a player. Soulkey has been a zerg-versus-terran specialists since his professional years, and is a sheer natural at the match-up. However, he is not a grinder like herO or Larva, and I suspect will remain relatively unchanged in the future also.
EffOrt, before his recent slump in recent months, was probably the best performing zerg player in online sponsored matches, but could never translate that into a decent ASL performance.
To be quite frank, there is no satisfying answer. The throne for the title of the best zerg on the planet has been pretty much vacant ever since Jaedong started to suffer from injuries towards the very end of his professional career. Sure you can argue for some of the more prominent names, but I don't think any one zerg player is head and shoulders above the rest like Jaedong once was.
Thanks for the extremely informative post. Where do you find those kind of statistics?
The numbers are from a Korean site run by a guy who does statistical analysis of every recorded online sponsored match played since May 2017. If you can read Korean, you can use various cut-off points to see who performed the best versus Flash (or any other player of your liking), say May 2017 to December 2017, for example.
Thanks! Yeah I can read a little Korean. I have a hard time remembering most of their real names though.
On May 15 2018 12:45 Alpha-NP- wrote: Letmelose are other players not allowed to have an opinion if it differs from yours?
I'm all for good discussion involving intangible metrics too. Like how EffOrt was heavily influenced by herO's non-starting position expansion into hydralisk focused play, and how EffOrt himself said that he bench-marked herO's style of zerg-versus-protoss to get better at the match-up. EffOrt used to prefer hive-based starting position expansion play, but modified his play-style after watching herO.
There is a subtle art to how herO plays the zerg-versus-protoss match-up. He takes advantage of the fact that most protoss players go for corsairs, and has some of the most abusive builds and knows better than any zergs when to power drones at the appropriate timings, and when to stop. If EffOrt is a virtuoso at the zerg-versus-terran match-up, herO is a virtuoso at the zerg-versus-protoss match-up, and has heavily influenced the way the match-up was played in the streaming era of Brood War.
One of the finer arts of Brood War is optimizing worker count. Flash has that down to a science. BeSt has that down to a science. herO is currently the master of that particular art-form for the zerg race, and his talents can be best seen in his famed zerg-versus-protoss match-up (since worker optimization is relatively less important for the other two match-ups). It is also the major reasons why herO has adapted better to the 1-1-1 strategy better than EffOrt, who was vastly superior at the match-up when facing a more conventional play-style.
If anyone wondered why these kind of players have so much units. It is not because they click on gateways or larvas any faster. JangBi was way better at producing units from gateways in a sweeping manner than BeSt ever was, but in terms of having the correct macro-management set-up, BeSt was head and shoulders above him. I don't know why people want to paint herO as some mindless hydralisk spammer when he has one of the most scientific approaches to the match-up.
I just don't like inane conversations discussing which players made you swoon the most. Especially if such base way of thinking is used to disparage successful players who worked hard to reach that goal.
funny how you call pauline's posts "inane" when pauline as a player very likely has a better innate understanding of the ingame concepts than you do.
On May 15 2018 12:45 Alpha-NP- wrote: Letmelose are other players not allowed to have an opinion if it differs from yours?
I'm all for good discussion involving intangible metrics too. Like how EffOrt was heavily influenced by herO's non-starting position expansion into hydralisk focused play, and how EffOrt himself said that he bench-marked herO's style of zerg-versus-protoss to get better at the match-up. EffOrt used to prefer hive-based starting position expansion play, but modified his play-style after watching herO.
There is a subtle art to how herO plays the zerg-versus-protoss match-up. He takes advantage of the fact that most protoss players go for corsairs, and has some of the most abusive builds and knows better than any zergs when to power drones at the appropriate timings, and when to stop. If EffOrt is a virtuoso at the zerg-versus-terran match-up, herO is a virtuoso at the zerg-versus-protoss match-up, and has heavily influenced the way the match-up was played in the streaming era of Brood War.
One of the finer arts of Brood War is optimizing worker count. Flash has that down to a science. BeSt has that down to a science. herO is currently the master of that particular art-form for the zerg race, and his talents can be best seen in his famed zerg-versus-protoss match-up (since worker optimization is relatively less important for the other two match-ups). It is also the major reasons why herO has adapted better to the 1-1-1 strategy better than EffOrt, who was vastly superior at the match-up when facing a more conventional play-style.
If anyone wondered why these kind of players have so much units. It is not because they click on gateways or larvas any faster. JangBi was way better at producing units from gateways in a sweeping manner than BeSt ever was, but in terms of having the correct macro-management set-up, BeSt was head and shoulders above him. I don't know why people want to paint herO as some mindless hydralisk spammer when he has one of the most scientific approaches to the match-up.
I just don't like inane conversations discussing which players made you swoon the most. Especially if such base way of thinking is used to disparage successful players who worked hard to reach that goal.
funny how you call pauline's posts "inane" when pauline as a player very likely has a better innate understanding of the ingame concepts than you do.
still don't want to show manners i see.
I form my opinions after listening to people with immense understanding of the game. If he had good arguments, I would have incorporated his opinions into my own line of thinking. So far I got the message that he likes EffOrt, and watches his streams. Not exactly the most persuasive argument in the universe.
On May 15 2018 00:21 ggsimida wrote: Is there an option called "none"?
Seriously not one of the supposed top zerg players give me any hope for the race in the near future
JD is getting on with the age and his wrist is busted
Effort doesn't give a damn about offline tourneys ever since his vnsl win over bisu a few years back
Hero shown good form lately but nothing so far has persuade me that he is anything more than the "good in zvp mediocre in everything else" limited potential player hes always been. Plus hes leaving for army soon so byebye form!
Larva lul. A certified Flash punching bag does not automatically make you a title contender
Soulkey slow player. Feel like if he had JD/effort mechanics he would be top maybe.
On May 15 2018 00:14 Ty2 wrote: Why is no one talking about zelot?
I know every build of his and their nuances. Im a secret admirer of his come fite me
People being in denial about herO being a legitimate contender for the title of the best zerg at the moment, reminds me of the time when Kal won KeSPA Protoss of the Year Award in 2010. People were so depressed about the fact that the best performing protoss player didn't even come close to inspiring hope for the race, that they reminisced about the past while rejecting the notion that Kal was objectively speaking the best performing protoss player for that particular year.
It doesn't matter if the best isn't good enough. herO is currently the highest rated zerg player according to the ELO ranking based on online sponsored games results, as well as being the best performing zerg in the past five seasons of the AfreecaTV StarLeagues. People shouldn't ignore results just because the end narrative is dull and lifeless. Sometimes competition is dull and lifeless, but people definitely should stay away from trying to conjure up imaginary alternate universes where things are more volatile and exciting.
I just wish people stopped ignoring competitive results just because accepting that reality leads to uninspiring narratives.
yes statiscally speaking hero is the best zerg right now. its something anyone with access to a database can immediately say. but people have their own notion and vision of what kind of play and results a "best zerg" should display.
poeple reminisce the past not just for the sake of it, but it reminds them how certain players are able to push the boundaries of what a certain race is capable of. 08-09 JD is great example, not just a statistic bonjwa but a complete beast in every facet of his play. current hero is statistically "the best zerg today" but none of his play shows anything fanciful or remarkable that makes one go "wow" when you watch him play. You may not agree with this definition but at least show some respect for other BW fans who are emotionally invested in the game, rather than just constantly slating and trolling them for no good reason like you did with pauline.
What a "best zerg" "should" or "should not" display is highly subjective. Not to mention that, once again, focusing on past results still does not indicate who is the best "now". "Should" means something entirely subjective. The results, which you yourself have acknowledged indicate hero is the best zero now, are not subjective. The results actually matter.
because i think the whole point of this thread is to open up discussion on best zerg today subjective/objective based.
because going by statistics/results ALONE its obvious who the best zerg is today. There Mr. OptaBroodwar has showed us the statistics, everyone can just shut up and leave, mods can just close this thread already. theres no place for one's opinions even in threads like this, really??
how boring.
On May 15 2018 11:25 Letmelose wrote: Respect goes both ways. Slating a bullshit derogatory comment towards a player by using statistics may seem meaningless to you, but I'd much rather face facts than discussing our feelings towards various players with complete disregard for their actual results.
its not about respect for hero here, its respect for other posters. all i see from your post to pauline is "fuck your emotional attachment to effort, muh winrates is the only thing that matters (even if hero juest 3 hatch hydra all his games)"
also noone is showing disregard for actual results, people have their own opinion of who their "best zerg" even knowing about actual results. you say broodwar is merely about competition, well i disagree, it has fine art aspect to it that goes beyond mere winning and losing. otherwise you will only see every BW fans support Flash, but in reality they don't.
When a poster bases his entire argument to support his outlandish claims (with derogatory comments towards a player) on past subjective impressions from a time-frame that isn't even relevant to the discussion, yes, I would say that is having complete disregard for competitive results.
Brood War isn't just about results, but when you ignore results entirely, that becomes a problem. What are we discussing here? How watching EffOrt's online games from 2017 makes people swoon? Or the best zerg today? I thought we were discussing the latter.
his love for effort may have made him a little blind to hero's recent development (i mean if you are a diehard effort fan you would be watching his stream almost all of the time, not hero's) but im pretty sure pauline is well aware of hero's results. just that in his eyes he sees effort as his very own "best zerg player" thats all.
title of this thread is "best zerg today". if the title is "best zerg today by winrate/results" or even "best peforming zerg today" then yes, you win this thread. but now with an ambiguous title there are certainly many kind of viewpoints you can take for "best", no?
But isn't the real discussion then "Who do you LIKE the most?", rather than "Who is best?". Letmelose seems to present who the best zerg is, whereas f.ex. Pauline talks about who he likes the most. I'm sure he'll point out "no, the best", but frankly it seems more about liking than ackowledging current skill standings.
do you have the impression hero is the best zerg?compared to jd soulkey larva effort?in term of ASL results you can say yes,u dont need to discuss it,but now when you re watching heros play do you think he is far ahead of his zerg competitors? No.obviously is extremely hard to keep yourself in good shape each time you play tournaments,and i think hero excell at,always a solid player +- ,and im a big heros fan,his zvp is truly inspirational,and his zvz is also great,now when it comes to zvt do you have the feeling that he is always in danger,and i guess this the reason people tend to underate him,cuz before the 1-1-1 larva soulkry and effort were the direct competition to Flash,so for many people it means they ate a much better player,but you can call hero what flash is for terran,just a very solid player in every aspect,that doesnt need crazy micro macro but everything combined,+ unique styles of play,most of them less atractive but giving results.
On May 15 2018 17:10 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: do you have the impression hero is the best zerg?compared to jd soulkey larva effort?in term of ASL results you can say yes,u dont need to discuss it,but now when you re watching heros play do you think he is far ahead of his zerg competitors? No.obviously is extremely hard to keep yourself in good shape each time you play tournaments,and i think hero excell at,always a solid player +- ,and im a big heros fan,his zvp is truly inspirational,and his zvz is also great,now when it comes to zvt do you have the feeling that he is always in danger,and i guess this the reason people tend to underate him,cuz before the 1-1-1 larva soulkry and effort were the direct competition to Flash,so for many people it means they ate a much better player,but you can call hero what flash is for terran,just a very solid player in every aspect,that doesnt need crazy micro macro but everything combined,+ unique styles of play,most of them less atractive but giving results.
If we lived in a universe where the 1-1-1 build didn't exist, nothing but the zerg-versus-terran match-up mattered, I would totally agree that EffOrt is quite clearly a level above herO.
However, that is simply not the case. Ever since Flash started to heavily employ the 1-1-1 build into his arsenal (roughly around December 2017), this is how the two fared versus Flash:
EffOrt: 9-52 (14.75%) herO: 38-74 (33.93%)
herO has been spearheading the charge against the 1-1-1 build, and it has much to do with his ability to optimize build orders in a meticulous manner. EffOrt cannot be said to be definitively better than herO in what used to be the biggest disparity between the two.
I really don't understand why there's the need to put so many caveats to put EffOrt above herO when the discussion is clearly discussing what is happening right now.
I stylistically prefer EffOrt over herO, and admired him very much for his fine online form during 2017, but pretending herO is much worse than EffOrt (to the point where comparing the two is an insult, as asserted by one poster) right now is nothing short of delusional behaviour. This isn't figure skating. This is competitive Brood War. Results always matter over style. Results may not be everything, but once you start to prioritize aesthetics over results, you might as well not pay any attention to Brood War tournaments, since all that matters apparently are visually pleasing FPVODs.
I tend to side with letmelose here simply because the only objective measurement of a player's ability is results (and trends in them). We can all argue who's smarter or more technically accomplished or aesthetically pleasing (this is especially subjective) and end up nowhere. I, for one, prefer herO's playstyle over every other contemporary zerg from an aesthetic perspective. This does not make him a better player. I loathed Barcelona's tiki-taka for the very same reasons, and they were godlike. Moreover, playstyles are not omnipotent, they are adapted to the current meta to a certain degree and a player that looks dominant being his usual self may struggle in a few months, never being a lesser microer, macroer, strategist, tactician or entertainer, assuming consistent practice. Maybe I'm just repeating what letmelose said, but I'm trying to make it even less inflammatory in case someone feels these thoughts are an insult to his/her favourite player.
I mean, Effort is my favorite player, but simply put: he just hasn't been doing well in these last few months, doesn't seem very motivated and he failed to advance in every ASL season. Hero and Soulkey are objectively above him right now
On May 15 2018 17:10 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: do you have the impression hero is the best zerg?compared to jd soulkey larva effort?in term of ASL results you can say yes,u dont need to discuss it,but now when you re watching heros play do you think he is far ahead of his zerg competitors? No.obviously is extremely hard to keep yourself in good shape each time you play tournaments,and i think hero excell at,always a solid player +- ,and im a big heros fan,his zvp is truly inspirational,and his zvz is also great,now when it comes to zvt do you have the feeling that he is always in danger,and i guess this the reason people tend to underate him,cuz before the 1-1-1 larva soulkry and effort were the direct competition to Flash,so for many people it means they ate a much better player,but you can call hero what flash is for terran,just a very solid player in every aspect,that doesnt need crazy micro macro but everything combined,+ unique styles of play,most of them less atractive but giving results.
I think this is the most relevant part of your post. everything before that is subjective and seems to intentionally obfuscate the question at hand. i feel like a lot of people are getting horse racing confused with horse dancing.
EPT
