• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:49
CEST 15:49
KST 22:49
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles5[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?14FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
i aint gon lie to u bruh... BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Summer Games Done Quick 2024!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 638 users

What wrecked SC2? - Page 28

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 26 27 28 29 30 36 Next All
ortseam
Profile Joined April 2015
996 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-02 20:57:25
August 02 2017 20:57 GMT
#541
Probably some conspiracy theory again. Here is the LR (goes on for some pages), probably all the posters were BW elitists/secret agents as well
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10127 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-02 21:06:09
August 02 2017 21:01 GMT
#542
On August 03 2017 04:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:
So is this a case of the mandela effect or not :thinking: (i actually do not know btw)

Would definitely fit the narrative some posters in this thread are pushing! Unfortunately for them, in the live report thread, there are plenty of people's reactions to the travesty that was that PR stunt, so no collective false memories here.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/357247-osl-tving-osl-grand-final?page=94#1872
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
August 02 2017 21:12 GMT
#543
Ok sure fair enough, a shame that there apparently are no videos left of it though because the exact wording would be interesting.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
nighcol
Profile Joined January 2012
298 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-02 21:19:02
August 02 2017 21:18 GMT
#544
On August 03 2017 01:39 RealityIsKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2017 23:10 nighcol wrote:
On August 02 2017 22:45 Letmelose wrote:
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.


I'm definitely not disputing that in terms of size of audience SC2 failed hard in Korea and Blizzard obviously did some things that hurt BW. I'm just curious about this claim that I see sometimes: is there some kind of real proof that the SC2 transition was somehow forced by Blizzard or is it just conjecture? I've understood the legal dispute to have been settled for quite a while at that point so that doesn't seem to be it.


@Letmelose: is there anyway where we can recover the interview with Blizzard employees saying that it is now time to switch to SC2 in the Tving OSL?

I remember very vividly those statements.


I watched that OSL, saw the interview and thought it was very poor taste like everyone else... . Not sure why you think it's all that relevant.
ortseam
Profile Joined April 2015
996 Posts
August 02 2017 21:28 GMT
#545
The answer to you initial question is: No. There is no "real" proof, if you have read all of Letmelose's posts and are still having doubts about what happened.
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1913 Posts
August 02 2017 22:09 GMT
#546
I am out of here, but I just want to make some final points.

I firmly believe there were 2 main reasons why SC2 is not bigger than it is today, and that the 2 expansions were moderately successful:
1: Outdated genre.
2: Outdated businessmodel.

Minor issues about unit design etc, would make a very little difference to the big picture IMO. I would also like to add that for being an RTS released in 2010, the game did and does exceptionally well. Also, gamerkids born in the 2000s are not stupid, they are just different, and play minecraft on their Ipads.

Play and watch the game you like
*peace*
Buff the siegetank
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-03 00:46:31
August 03 2017 00:26 GMT
#547
On August 03 2017 06:18 nighcol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2017 01:39 RealityIsKing wrote:
On August 02 2017 23:10 nighcol wrote:
On August 02 2017 22:45 Letmelose wrote:
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.


I'm definitely not disputing that in terms of size of audience SC2 failed hard in Korea and Blizzard obviously did some things that hurt BW. I'm just curious about this claim that I see sometimes: is there some kind of real proof that the SC2 transition was somehow forced by Blizzard or is it just conjecture? I've understood the legal dispute to have been settled for quite a while at that point so that doesn't seem to be it.


@Letmelose: is there anyway where we can recover the interview with Blizzard employees saying that it is now time to switch to SC2 in the Tving OSL?

I remember very vividly those statements.


I watched that OSL, saw the interview and thought it was very poor taste like everyone else... . Not sure why you think it's all that relevant.


After going against Blizzard in a costly legal battle, the consequence of which was MBC Game shutting down mid-way through would have been the last ever MSL, KeSPA, who had released official statements with their intentions to "grow Brood War" and wanting Blizzard's help in that, instead of hefty fees for intellectual rights, suddenly released a new statement that "Starcraft 2 is the future of Korean e-Sports", just after they had come to an agreement with Blizzard about how they would settle their legal disputes.

Mike Morhaime, the co-founder of Blizzard, appears on television to inform us that "Starcraft 2 is the future", while Korean commentators were literally crying broadcasting their last ever Brood War tournament. Ongamenet, the last stronghold for Brood War on television, the guys who defied the world trend to hold on to their most prized tournament, had invited a Blizzard representative to tell us on their behalf that Ongamenet too had independently arrived to the conclusion that Starcraft 2 was the future.

If that is the reality of the situation in your eyes until Blizzard literally admits their part in the demise of Brood War, then there's nothing changing that.

Just like nobody can say sAviOr lost games for money, because the Korean legal system failed to prove that, and sAviOr denied all charges. All we know is that sAviOr was a great player during practice, but had incredibly poor performances in numerous televised games, one of which had sAviOr attacking his own units whenever it looked like he would secure his incredible lead multiple times throughout the game. We still don't know for a fact whether he did that for money though, and I saw those games live, and thought it was in poor taste like everyone else... . Not sure why people think it's all that relevant.
TL+ Member
JohnSmithII
Profile Joined August 2017
3 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-03 02:49:22
August 03 2017 02:38 GMT
#548
The main reasons SC2 never stood a chance had little to do with outside factors. A lot of what was posted here were consequences. But they had roots. Cause and effect...

BW was a coincidence, the way it worked out so great. But the foundation of why BW became this good of a game was because of a lot of random factors. That said, the bulk of that foundation can be attributed to one designer working on the game. Only one, but he happened to be one of the best, if not the best, brilliant game design minds: Rob Pardo. He had another very smart guy in Allen Adham to bounce ideas off of, forming a duo of balance designers - unheard of at that time. And though they would never imagine how far BW would go, they built an incredibly smart, solid base for it to happen. They built something revolutionary.

SC2 had two people in charge of average intelligence, little relevant experience and none of that brilliance. Both happened to be headstrong and completely ignorant of BW's success. They skimmed through BW, took some simple notions from it, but never figured out the game well enough to understand what made it appealing and great in the first place.

The first one, Dustin Browder, was a game design veteran who worked on multiple strategy games. Unfortunately, that was a big part of the problem, because he didn't understand the true differences between C&C and StarCraft. And there is a huge, fundamental difference: one franchise is much less detailed, more chaotic, strategic and volatile, the other is significantly more complex, more mechanics based and features micro and macro as its main features. And being an experienced game designer made him arrogant and blind to what was needed in order to make a sequel to BW truly deliver. What he did eventually concede was that he didn't get the game he was in charge of on a competitive level, and being that intricate balance wasn't really part of C&C, he hired balance designers.

And that's where David Kim came in, coming from Dawn of War with little game design experience, but with some basic BW background. Being the only guy at Blizzard who knew BW at even a basic competitive level, he quickly rose up and became the sole expert. But both of them combined knew less about competitive BW than just about any good player in the community. They knew nothing about how maps balanced BW, what stages of mapmaking the game went through over the 12 years of its life up to that point. They didn't understand what made a good map, what made a bad map. What made a good unit interaction, what made a bad unit interaction. They didn't get that Zerg needed a unit that would give them even a little board control in order to allow for actual strategy. They didn't get that Protoss units were supposed to be strong enough to work on their own, not to rely solely on Force Fields, one of many spells and units that were volatile and backed game design into a corner. I could write a book about this specifically, so I'll stop at that. They didn't get what BW micro truly worked like (muta micro, marine micro, vulture micro, corsair micro, goon micro, etc.) and every unit that was introduced was a cheap substitute that would control nothing like what BW microed like. They were also strongly against adding useful and necessary BW units like a Lurker or a Defiler, because they believed their designs were straight up superior and it was beneath them to simply settle, if they could do it better. So we got a hundred awful incarnations of the Infestor and Swarm Host instead... That stubbornness, inability and ignorance was the downfall of SC2 development.

Ultimately, SC2 was more similar to a C&C game than BW in terms of unit types and control. And there is a reason why C&C never really worked as competitive multiplayer games. And the two people making just about all important decisions were both incompetent and arrogant. They deemed smart and experienced members of the community to be idiots. They saw community mapmakers as amateurish morons who never made a decent map in their lives, even when anyone with understanding of SC could see that just about any recognized community map was better than the crap they kept releasing. The abovementioned shitty unit control was something that could be easily fixed, there were people in the community who made these units micro better just by adjusting some numbers in the editor, but they were ignored. Partially, because Browder and Kim didn't understand what they even meant and why it was important, partially, because they wouldn't admit a mistake. They believed in their ability so strongly that they ignored just about anything the community said or did for the first 3 years.

And the only reason why they eventually opened up was due to PR issues, not because they suddenly saw light. When the community finally had enough and started bombarding Blizzard execs with direct complaints in 2012-13, people like Mike Morhaime finally realized something was wrong and that things needed adjusting, as maintaining a good PR image is very important to Blizzard, because that's what generates a lot of hype for their games.

What didn't change was that at that point David Kim was still mostly in charge while Dustin Browder went to lead Heroes of the Storm. And Kim was still years behind community leaders in terms of understanding SC on all fronts. He'd finally take the time to at least acknowledge that the community existed, somewhat understand some complaints against the game and agree to adjust things people knew were broken on day 1. But at that point there were 3 years and a ton of issues to catch up to and it went on and on, always ten steps behind, coupled with the fact that he wasn't capable of solving these problems properly anyway. Watch the BlizzCon panels the first few years, read their website updates, look at all these proposed and implemented design and balance changes, it was so terribly misguided and clueless. And what's worse, he'd never stop tinkering with the game, even if he was doing it a disservice, because he needed to appear to his bosses like he was hard at work and to continue to convince them to keep him working on the project he had a great deal of control of. Why go work on something else where his shortcomings could surface, when he was left to his own devices for years, getting money and spotlight, because no one else with influence at Blizzard got the game at all and he was seen as the expert? He was a loose equivalent to Barney Stinson, if you know what I mean. And as no one could truly understand the true results of that work, A for effort is what he got for years.

Let's also not forget that Blizzard didn't understand one bit the potential SC2 carried as an eSports title that would bring WC3 and BW players together during the times where eSports was itching for a great, modern game to propel it and RTS fans waited for 8 years for a new competitive game to sink their teeth in. They were too busy managing WoW, putting no people to work on SC2 outside the small dev team. There were no people anywhere working solely on SC2, no plans of any kind. It was so clearly visible that they didn't give a damn. If SC2 got any interest, it was only out of necessity for important milestones like BlizzCon or an expansion. They just left SC2 eSports be for years, only meddling with tournament licenses which was a pain in the ass for organizers and added 0 value. And when Riot and Valve aggressively pursued eSports for their games, they sat on their asses. Eventually, WCS was conceived, but it was still a minor project only a few people worked on. It lacked developer support (there was nothing eSports-related in the game), it lacked the appeal and professionalism the LCS and International had, and it continued like that. Those who say SC2 wasn't going to work due to being a 1v1 game have short memories or didn't experience the 2010-12 frenzy. Before SC2 ESL was mainly an online ladder provider with little real success and while IEM already existed, it got nowhere near the level of interest and growth it got from SC2. DH was mainly a LAN, SC2 propelled their tournaments and broadcasts. A lot of big offline events happened because of SC2, organizations rose and fell. The quality of broadcasts was nothing like what evolved under SC2. The success of several organizations stemmed from SC2. Being a commentator or a host wasn't a viable job before SC2. It was the base of what we have now. Sure, LoL and Dota2 carried it forward, but in my opinion mainly because their respective companies handled it better and invested in it, while Blizzard didn't. SC2 got left behind.

Really, in this day and age of gaming, the way it was handled SC2 never stood a chance to deliver on its potential. It wasn't considered a project worth backing and pursuing at Blizzard and Blizzard wasn't equipped to support the game. It was a cinderella to WoW. There was no understanding of SC and no interest in hiring people who gave a damn. It's kind of like a 200M budget movie getting a great director, star cast and personnel, a ton of marketing and support, while a lower budget movie won't even be played in the cinemas. It was full neglect, incompetence and inability to understand the potential.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10127 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-03 04:00:20
August 03 2017 04:00 GMT
#549
^ As much as that makes a great story, that's all it really seems like. A story you wove with little to no evidence and a lot of biased conjecture. I don't know that much about the design process of SC2 besides what was proposed for each expansion and some of the more major drama/stagnant periods, so I understand that some of that is partially true but when you start making inferences about the intelligence of various people I almost lol'd.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Arrinao
Profile Joined September 2013
21 Posts
August 03 2017 04:53 GMT
#550
Yeah I have a very mixed feelings about that post. The intelligence remarks were pretty dumb. Also the two guys "in charge". Just because they were the ones interacting doesn't mean there weren't other behind the curtain. That DBro because he was the only one who could understand the game at competitive level... umm I doubt that. Ultimately though the whole idea of the "balance designer" is funny to me, at least in the sense of an RTS. Fiddling around with knobs is worthless if you have a bad base. Lead designer should be the one doing balance since he is also the one to remake something from the ground up if it doesn't fill the scheme. Why Dbro relegated that to something else, shows pretty much again that he wasn't the right man up there. The rest of the post... well I can actually put my stamp over that. Especially at the fact that it was a cinderella to WoW. Pretty much the reason SC2 as a project was even conceived, I believe, was purely because of esports and the licensing fees tied to them, as a means of long term income, similar to WoW subscriptions, or later microtransactions from their newer games. When the esports failed to "deliver" as the scene was dragged by LoL and Dota, SC2 was slowly becoming a bastard child. I could feel that at the LoTV release... there was not even half as much hype surrounding it as it used to be for Heart of the swarm. The campaign felt like it completely gave up on all the side stories and just rushed to finish the main one with the simple good and evil bullshit.


Tiberian Sun is one of my favourite games of all time. I loved the slower pacing and the atmosphere, and that units felt solid and powerful. It was a very good RTS for just chilling out. Then Red Alert 2 came and I never understood why everyone seemed to like it. Everything felt like it was made out of glass in that game.

Somehow Dustin Browder's footprint is very easy to 'feel' because what SC2 and RA2 have in common is that in their predecessors, units felt solid and believable, while the units of both RA2 and SC2 feel way too fragile, like everything is made out of glass.

I'm with you on the atmosphere. That was awesome. I somehow still keep in my mind the memory of one particular level, which I believe was from the expansion, where you had a mutant and two robot artilleries and went after tacitus or how the thing was called. The level was all green and blue and orange from the glowing tiberian fields and the graphics details were just a joy.
I have to say though, the game was pretty bad otherwise It seemed to me like Westwood didn't acknowledge a single problem of the original C&C. Especially in terms of unit AI - really... in 2000 after Total Annihilation, AoC and Starcraft that was inexcusable. Not being able to assign a second harvester a command to unload at refinery or combat unit to get repaired at the pod, just because you previously assigned another unit to do so and until it actually arrives there and unloads/gets repaired you won't be able to do it, is ridiculous. I'm not even mentioning the flying units that couldn't go to a fog of war, that was really lul from me back then. Also returning to harvesters: the game had probably the worse economy pacing of any RTS I ever played. I mean C&C original had incredibly slow harvesters that pretty much required you to sit on your ass doing nothing for a minute until it returned back. Tiberian Sun had them even slower. Pretty dumb, considering fucking Dune 2 had carryals which remedied this problem so elegantly. Not to mention Dune 2000 which also had the working repair pads and refineries with no queue problems. That is my favorite game from WW.
Starlightsun
Profile Blog Joined June 2016
United States1405 Posts
August 03 2017 05:13 GMT
#551
On August 03 2017 09:26 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2017 06:18 nighcol wrote:
On August 03 2017 01:39 RealityIsKing wrote:
On August 02 2017 23:10 nighcol wrote:
On August 02 2017 22:45 Letmelose wrote:
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.


I'm definitely not disputing that in terms of size of audience SC2 failed hard in Korea and Blizzard obviously did some things that hurt BW. I'm just curious about this claim that I see sometimes: is there some kind of real proof that the SC2 transition was somehow forced by Blizzard or is it just conjecture? I've understood the legal dispute to have been settled for quite a while at that point so that doesn't seem to be it.


@Letmelose: is there anyway where we can recover the interview with Blizzard employees saying that it is now time to switch to SC2 in the Tving OSL?

I remember very vividly those statements.


I watched that OSL, saw the interview and thought it was very poor taste like everyone else... . Not sure why you think it's all that relevant.


After going against Blizzard in a costly legal battle, the consequence of which was MBC Game shutting down mid-way through would have been the last ever MSL, KeSPA, who had released official statements with their intentions to "grow Brood War" and wanting Blizzard's help in that, instead of hefty fees for intellectual rights, suddenly released a new statement that "Starcraft 2 is the future of Korean e-Sports", just after they had come to an agreement with Blizzard about how they would settle their legal disputes.

Mike Morhaime, the co-founder of Blizzard, appears on television to inform us that "Starcraft 2 is the future", while Korean commentators were literally crying broadcasting their last ever Brood War tournament. Ongamenet, the last stronghold for Brood War on television, the guys who defied the world trend to hold on to their most prized tournament, had invited a Blizzard representative to tell us on their behalf that Ongamenet too had independently arrived to the conclusion that Starcraft 2 was the future.

If that is the reality of the situation in your eyes until Blizzard literally admits their part in the demise of Brood War, then there's nothing changing that.

Just like nobody can say sAviOr lost games for money, because the Korean legal system failed to prove that, and sAviOr denied all charges. All we know is that sAviOr was a great player during practice, but had incredibly poor performances in numerous televised games, one of which had sAviOr attacking his own units whenever it looked like he would secure his incredible lead multiple times throughout the game. We still don't know for a fact whether he did that for money though, and I saw those games live, and thought it was in poor taste like everyone else... . Not sure why people think it's all that relevant.


Thank you for that excellent summary. Sick of people misrepresenting this shit.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-03 05:16:38
August 03 2017 05:14 GMT
#552
In brood war the most valuable resource was time. It was impossible to do everything. SC2 had to add artificial things to do in order to compensate for the addition time players had. Those didn't add to the game play because they were simply repetitive time sinks. That ruins the fun of a game. Also sc2 , even with its flashy graphics missed the beauty of bws simple graphics. It was easy to see, even at first glance exactly what was going on. There was no wall of lasers blocking your view. Also the way units respond in broodwar, despite being less realistic or "smooth" is actually a lot more fun.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
tub74557
Profile Joined November 2014
China25 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-03 05:50:48
August 03 2017 05:49 GMT
#553
On August 01 2017 04:10 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2017 02:33 Fango wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:22 gumballdead wrote:
The reason why SC2 failed is simple: its not as fun of a game to play as BW. It is not fun to build up for 10 minutes and get your whole army crushed because you looked away for two seconds. Brood War was much more mechanically challenging but battles lasted longer and you had a a plethora of UMS games to play if you didn't want to melee. Arcade wasn't added for 2 years and melee in SC2 is just the same cookie cutter builds every game. Don't even get me started on LotV's loss of early game tactics, there was a whole article written here about the lack of strategic depth in SC2.

Blizzard has failed to address damage over and over again, instead they added units like widow mines to the game.

Another HIGHLY competitive 1v1 game that's very difficult is Street Fighter. If you make a mistake and your opponent punishes you with a Critical Art there is always a chance to come back with smart play, because you get V-Trigger or Bar built up. In SC2 you eat the ultra and then immediately lose the game.. It is unforgiving and not fun, no wonder its a dead game.



As I said in the other post, SC2 is more successful than BW in the west. You're literally saying a game is dead, because it isn't like a game that is twice as dead.

I guess BW elitists forget they don't live in Korea


We're not living in an alternative reality where Korea doesn't exist. Professional Brood War may be dead because Blizzard killed it, but Brood War as a game is in no way shape or form twice as dead as Starcraft 2 in the current climate, one nation's passion for the game prevents that from being a true statement. The love Korea has for Brood War has allowed the scene to prosper without any support from Blizzard, and has in fact convinced Blizzard to take an active involvement with all the business about the remastered version of Brood War.

https://www.fuzic.nl/events/?order_by=start&order=desc

From a quick search, it seems that in the year of 2017, the only Starcraft 2 tournament that had over 50,000 peak concurrent viewership on Twitch was the semi-finals and finals for IEM.

Just a month or so earlier to IEM, the semi-finals of the ASL had over 200,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV (Korea's streaming platform of choice) alone, and had over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

http://news20.busan.com/controller/newsController.jsp?newsId=20170117000394

http://bbs.afreecatv.com/app/index.php?board=now_report&pageNo=5&b_no=1418&control=view

The most recent Brood War show-matches that happened a couple of days ago had around 90,000 peak concurrent viewership on NAVER, around 100,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV, and had well over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

https://nbamania.com/g2/bbs/board.php?bo_table=freetalk&wr_id=3048631

Just as it annoys you when people here spread misinformation about your game of choice, it annoys me when people like you spread misinformation about my game of choice. Go defend your game, but be accurate with your statements if you want to drag Brood War down in this shitfest of a thread.


So...this is so-called "passion"?
https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/152-starcraft-brood-war/events

$134k prize pool, seriously?
Or you are saying Koreans are so cheap and mean, thus they don't want to invest their money in their "passion" game?
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-03 06:22:13
August 03 2017 06:12 GMT
#554
On August 03 2017 14:49 tub74557 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2017 04:10 Letmelose wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:33 Fango wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:22 gumballdead wrote:
The reason why SC2 failed is simple: its not as fun of a game to play as BW. It is not fun to build up for 10 minutes and get your whole army crushed because you looked away for two seconds. Brood War was much more mechanically challenging but battles lasted longer and you had a a plethora of UMS games to play if you didn't want to melee. Arcade wasn't added for 2 years and melee in SC2 is just the same cookie cutter builds every game. Don't even get me started on LotV's loss of early game tactics, there was a whole article written here about the lack of strategic depth in SC2.

Blizzard has failed to address damage over and over again, instead they added units like widow mines to the game.

Another HIGHLY competitive 1v1 game that's very difficult is Street Fighter. If you make a mistake and your opponent punishes you with a Critical Art there is always a chance to come back with smart play, because you get V-Trigger or Bar built up. In SC2 you eat the ultra and then immediately lose the game.. It is unforgiving and not fun, no wonder its a dead game.



As I said in the other post, SC2 is more successful than BW in the west. You're literally saying a game is dead, because it isn't like a game that is twice as dead.

I guess BW elitists forget they don't live in Korea


We're not living in an alternative reality where Korea doesn't exist. Professional Brood War may be dead because Blizzard killed it, but Brood War as a game is in no way shape or form twice as dead as Starcraft 2 in the current climate, one nation's passion for the game prevents that from being a true statement. The love Korea has for Brood War has allowed the scene to prosper without any support from Blizzard, and has in fact convinced Blizzard to take an active involvement with all the business about the remastered version of Brood War.

https://www.fuzic.nl/events/?order_by=start&order=desc

From a quick search, it seems that in the year of 2017, the only Starcraft 2 tournament that had over 50,000 peak concurrent viewership on Twitch was the semi-finals and finals for IEM.

Just a month or so earlier to IEM, the semi-finals of the ASL had over 200,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV (Korea's streaming platform of choice) alone, and had over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

http://news20.busan.com/controller/newsController.jsp?newsId=20170117000394

http://bbs.afreecatv.com/app/index.php?board=now_report&pageNo=5&b_no=1418&control=view

The most recent Brood War show-matches that happened a couple of days ago had around 90,000 peak concurrent viewership on NAVER, around 100,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV, and had well over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

https://nbamania.com/g2/bbs/board.php?bo_table=freetalk&wr_id=3048631

Just as it annoys you when people here spread misinformation about your game of choice, it annoys me when people like you spread misinformation about my game of choice. Go defend your game, but be accurate with your statements if you want to drag Brood War down in this shitfest of a thread.


So...this is so-called "passion"?
https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/152-starcraft-brood-war/events

$134k prize pool, seriously?
Or you are saying Koreans are so cheap and mean, thus they don't want to invest their money in their "passion" game?


Which part of professional Brood War being dead did you not get? There are no professional Brood War players anymore. Only streamers. If you are interested in the revenue of these streamers, please be my guest and find out for yourself exactly how cheap Koreans are.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/466030-afreeca-feed?page=84#1664

By your logic United States of America must be more passionate about their sports than the rest of the world combined. I personally think football (soccer) is the most loved sports in the world, but I guess you don't see any value in passion from those who you regard to be cheap. What a way to view the world. Good luck with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue
TL+ Member
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
August 03 2017 06:15 GMT
#555
On August 03 2017 13:00 Jealous wrote:
^ As much as that makes a great story, that's all it really seems like. A story you wove with little to no evidence and a lot of biased conjecture. I don't know that much about the design process of SC2 besides what was proposed for each expansion and some of the more major drama/stagnant periods, so I understand that some of that is partially true but when you start making inferences about the intelligence of various people I almost lol'd.

Well, i know that sometimes post sc2 release, in an interview one of the blizz staff said that they didnt know what made a good RTS game, "wish we knew", dont remember who it was.
We also know that when they did their "PR" community feedback, david kim have said that he doesnt understand why force field remove micro.
Or maybe he answered that in an Q/A thingy.


If we look at how they implement stuff into sc2, such as reaper grenades. It shows me atleast they they really have no clue about RTS games.
So the post has some merit atleast imo.
duke91
Profile Joined April 2014
Germany1458 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-03 07:31:09
August 03 2017 07:27 GMT
#556
On August 03 2017 14:49 tub74557 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2017 04:10 Letmelose wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:33 Fango wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:22 gumballdead wrote:
The reason why SC2 failed is simple: its not as fun of a game to play as BW. It is not fun to build up for 10 minutes and get your whole army crushed because you looked away for two seconds. Brood War was much more mechanically challenging but battles lasted longer and you had a a plethora of UMS games to play if you didn't want to melee. Arcade wasn't added for 2 years and melee in SC2 is just the same cookie cutter builds every game. Don't even get me started on LotV's loss of early game tactics, there was a whole article written here about the lack of strategic depth in SC2.

Blizzard has failed to address damage over and over again, instead they added units like widow mines to the game.

Another HIGHLY competitive 1v1 game that's very difficult is Street Fighter. If you make a mistake and your opponent punishes you with a Critical Art there is always a chance to come back with smart play, because you get V-Trigger or Bar built up. In SC2 you eat the ultra and then immediately lose the game.. It is unforgiving and not fun, no wonder its a dead game.



As I said in the other post, SC2 is more successful than BW in the west. You're literally saying a game is dead, because it isn't like a game that is twice as dead.

I guess BW elitists forget they don't live in Korea


We're not living in an alternative reality where Korea doesn't exist. Professional Brood War may be dead because Blizzard killed it, but Brood War as a game is in no way shape or form twice as dead as Starcraft 2 in the current climate, one nation's passion for the game prevents that from being a true statement. The love Korea has for Brood War has allowed the scene to prosper without any support from Blizzard, and has in fact convinced Blizzard to take an active involvement with all the business about the remastered version of Brood War.

https://www.fuzic.nl/events/?order_by=start&order=desc

From a quick search, it seems that in the year of 2017, the only Starcraft 2 tournament that had over 50,000 peak concurrent viewership on Twitch was the semi-finals and finals for IEM.

Just a month or so earlier to IEM, the semi-finals of the ASL had over 200,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV (Korea's streaming platform of choice) alone, and had over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

http://news20.busan.com/controller/newsController.jsp?newsId=20170117000394

http://bbs.afreecatv.com/app/index.php?board=now_report&pageNo=5&b_no=1418&control=view

The most recent Brood War show-matches that happened a couple of days ago had around 90,000 peak concurrent viewership on NAVER, around 100,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV, and had well over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

https://nbamania.com/g2/bbs/board.php?bo_table=freetalk&wr_id=3048631

Just as it annoys you when people here spread misinformation about your game of choice, it annoys me when people like you spread misinformation about my game of choice. Go defend your game, but be accurate with your statements if you want to drag Brood War down in this shitfest of a thread.


So...this is so-called "passion"?
https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/152-starcraft-brood-war/events

$134k prize pool, seriously?
Or you are saying Koreans are so cheap and mean, thus they don't want to invest their money in their "passion" game?


Without blizzard funding, SC2 prizepool would be similar to that. 99% of SC2 funding comes from blizzard. 100% of BW funding comes from sponsors or fans. Also you forget that even the least popular streamer has a high income from streaming.

What is more driven by passion? BW is the only game in the world which can do that.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)STYLE START SBENU( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
tub74557
Profile Joined November 2014
China25 Posts
August 03 2017 08:29 GMT
#557
On August 03 2017 16:27 duke91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2017 14:49 tub74557 wrote:
On August 01 2017 04:10 Letmelose wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:33 Fango wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:22 gumballdead wrote:
The reason why SC2 failed is simple: its not as fun of a game to play as BW. It is not fun to build up for 10 minutes and get your whole army crushed because you looked away for two seconds. Brood War was much more mechanically challenging but battles lasted longer and you had a a plethora of UMS games to play if you didn't want to melee. Arcade wasn't added for 2 years and melee in SC2 is just the same cookie cutter builds every game. Don't even get me started on LotV's loss of early game tactics, there was a whole article written here about the lack of strategic depth in SC2.

Blizzard has failed to address damage over and over again, instead they added units like widow mines to the game.

Another HIGHLY competitive 1v1 game that's very difficult is Street Fighter. If you make a mistake and your opponent punishes you with a Critical Art there is always a chance to come back with smart play, because you get V-Trigger or Bar built up. In SC2 you eat the ultra and then immediately lose the game.. It is unforgiving and not fun, no wonder its a dead game.



As I said in the other post, SC2 is more successful than BW in the west. You're literally saying a game is dead, because it isn't like a game that is twice as dead.

I guess BW elitists forget they don't live in Korea


We're not living in an alternative reality where Korea doesn't exist. Professional Brood War may be dead because Blizzard killed it, but Brood War as a game is in no way shape or form twice as dead as Starcraft 2 in the current climate, one nation's passion for the game prevents that from being a true statement. The love Korea has for Brood War has allowed the scene to prosper without any support from Blizzard, and has in fact convinced Blizzard to take an active involvement with all the business about the remastered version of Brood War.

https://www.fuzic.nl/events/?order_by=start&order=desc

From a quick search, it seems that in the year of 2017, the only Starcraft 2 tournament that had over 50,000 peak concurrent viewership on Twitch was the semi-finals and finals for IEM.

Just a month or so earlier to IEM, the semi-finals of the ASL had over 200,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV (Korea's streaming platform of choice) alone, and had over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

http://news20.busan.com/controller/newsController.jsp?newsId=20170117000394

http://bbs.afreecatv.com/app/index.php?board=now_report&pageNo=5&b_no=1418&control=view

The most recent Brood War show-matches that happened a couple of days ago had around 90,000 peak concurrent viewership on NAVER, around 100,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV, and had well over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

https://nbamania.com/g2/bbs/board.php?bo_table=freetalk&wr_id=3048631

Just as it annoys you when people here spread misinformation about your game of choice, it annoys me when people like you spread misinformation about my game of choice. Go defend your game, but be accurate with your statements if you want to drag Brood War down in this shitfest of a thread.


So...this is so-called "passion"?
https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/152-starcraft-brood-war/events

$134k prize pool, seriously?
Or you are saying Koreans are so cheap and mean, thus they don't want to invest their money in their "passion" game?


Without blizzard funding, SC2 prizepool would be similar to that. 99% of SC2 funding comes from blizzard. 100% of BW funding comes from sponsors or fans. Also you forget that even the least popular streamer has a high income from streaming.

What is more driven by passion? BW is the only game in the world which can do that.


Really?!
Then what is that?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/World_Electronic_Sports_Games_2016
$402,000.00 in your face.
tub74557
Profile Joined November 2014
China25 Posts
August 03 2017 08:42 GMT
#558
On August 03 2017 15:12 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2017 14:49 tub74557 wrote:
On August 01 2017 04:10 Letmelose wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:33 Fango wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:22 gumballdead wrote:
The reason why SC2 failed is simple: its not as fun of a game to play as BW. It is not fun to build up for 10 minutes and get your whole army crushed because you looked away for two seconds. Brood War was much more mechanically challenging but battles lasted longer and you had a a plethora of UMS games to play if you didn't want to melee. Arcade wasn't added for 2 years and melee in SC2 is just the same cookie cutter builds every game. Don't even get me started on LotV's loss of early game tactics, there was a whole article written here about the lack of strategic depth in SC2.

Blizzard has failed to address damage over and over again, instead they added units like widow mines to the game.

Another HIGHLY competitive 1v1 game that's very difficult is Street Fighter. If you make a mistake and your opponent punishes you with a Critical Art there is always a chance to come back with smart play, because you get V-Trigger or Bar built up. In SC2 you eat the ultra and then immediately lose the game.. It is unforgiving and not fun, no wonder its a dead game.



As I said in the other post, SC2 is more successful than BW in the west. You're literally saying a game is dead, because it isn't like a game that is twice as dead.

I guess BW elitists forget they don't live in Korea


We're not living in an alternative reality where Korea doesn't exist. Professional Brood War may be dead because Blizzard killed it, but Brood War as a game is in no way shape or form twice as dead as Starcraft 2 in the current climate, one nation's passion for the game prevents that from being a true statement. The love Korea has for Brood War has allowed the scene to prosper without any support from Blizzard, and has in fact convinced Blizzard to take an active involvement with all the business about the remastered version of Brood War.

https://www.fuzic.nl/events/?order_by=start&order=desc

From a quick search, it seems that in the year of 2017, the only Starcraft 2 tournament that had over 50,000 peak concurrent viewership on Twitch was the semi-finals and finals for IEM.

Just a month or so earlier to IEM, the semi-finals of the ASL had over 200,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV (Korea's streaming platform of choice) alone, and had over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

http://news20.busan.com/controller/newsController.jsp?newsId=20170117000394

http://bbs.afreecatv.com/app/index.php?board=now_report&pageNo=5&b_no=1418&control=view

The most recent Brood War show-matches that happened a couple of days ago had around 90,000 peak concurrent viewership on NAVER, around 100,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV, and had well over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

https://nbamania.com/g2/bbs/board.php?bo_table=freetalk&wr_id=3048631

Just as it annoys you when people here spread misinformation about your game of choice, it annoys me when people like you spread misinformation about my game of choice. Go defend your game, but be accurate with your statements if you want to drag Brood War down in this shitfest of a thread.


So...this is so-called "passion"?
https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/152-starcraft-brood-war/events

$134k prize pool, seriously?
Or you are saying Koreans are so cheap and mean, thus they don't want to invest their money in their "passion" game?


Which part of professional Brood War being dead did you not get? There are no professional Brood War players anymore. Only streamers. If you are interested in the revenue of these streamers, please be my guest and find out for yourself exactly how cheap Koreans are.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/466030-afreeca-feed?page=84#1664

By your logic United States of America must be more passionate about their sports than the rest of the world combined. I personally think football (soccer) is the most loved sports in the world, but I guess you don't see any value in passion from those who you regard to be cheap. What a way to view the world. Good luck with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue


So you mean streamers cannot attend tournament? Then what is ASL?
So why ASL's sponsor invest so little money in it?
And why no other third party entities invest more money to create more tournament?

And don't you know revenue =/= investment value?
The investment in soccer world cup is around $200 billion, which means judging by investment, soccer is the most loved sports in the world.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/14/qatar-world-cup-200-billion-dollar-gamble

neptunusfisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
2286 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-03 08:57:18
August 03 2017 08:52 GMT
#559
On August 03 2017 17:42 tub74557 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2017 15:12 Letmelose wrote:
On August 03 2017 14:49 tub74557 wrote:
On August 01 2017 04:10 Letmelose wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:33 Fango wrote:
On August 01 2017 02:22 gumballdead wrote:
The reason why SC2 failed is simple: its not as fun of a game to play as BW. It is not fun to build up for 10 minutes and get your whole army crushed because you looked away for two seconds. Brood War was much more mechanically challenging but battles lasted longer and you had a a plethora of UMS games to play if you didn't want to melee. Arcade wasn't added for 2 years and melee in SC2 is just the same cookie cutter builds every game. Don't even get me started on LotV's loss of early game tactics, there was a whole article written here about the lack of strategic depth in SC2.

Blizzard has failed to address damage over and over again, instead they added units like widow mines to the game.

Another HIGHLY competitive 1v1 game that's very difficult is Street Fighter. If you make a mistake and your opponent punishes you with a Critical Art there is always a chance to come back with smart play, because you get V-Trigger or Bar built up. In SC2 you eat the ultra and then immediately lose the game.. It is unforgiving and not fun, no wonder its a dead game.



As I said in the other post, SC2 is more successful than BW in the west. You're literally saying a game is dead, because it isn't like a game that is twice as dead.

I guess BW elitists forget they don't live in Korea


We're not living in an alternative reality where Korea doesn't exist. Professional Brood War may be dead because Blizzard killed it, but Brood War as a game is in no way shape or form twice as dead as Starcraft 2 in the current climate, one nation's passion for the game prevents that from being a true statement. The love Korea has for Brood War has allowed the scene to prosper without any support from Blizzard, and has in fact convinced Blizzard to take an active involvement with all the business about the remastered version of Brood War.

https://www.fuzic.nl/events/?order_by=start&order=desc

From a quick search, it seems that in the year of 2017, the only Starcraft 2 tournament that had over 50,000 peak concurrent viewership on Twitch was the semi-finals and finals for IEM.

Just a month or so earlier to IEM, the semi-finals of the ASL had over 200,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV (Korea's streaming platform of choice) alone, and had over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

http://news20.busan.com/controller/newsController.jsp?newsId=20170117000394

http://bbs.afreecatv.com/app/index.php?board=now_report&pageNo=5&b_no=1418&control=view

The most recent Brood War show-matches that happened a couple of days ago had around 90,000 peak concurrent viewership on NAVER, around 100,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV, and had well over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world.

https://nbamania.com/g2/bbs/board.php?bo_table=freetalk&wr_id=3048631

Just as it annoys you when people here spread misinformation about your game of choice, it annoys me when people like you spread misinformation about my game of choice. Go defend your game, but be accurate with your statements if you want to drag Brood War down in this shitfest of a thread.


So...this is so-called "passion"?
https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/152-starcraft-brood-war/events

$134k prize pool, seriously?
Or you are saying Koreans are so cheap and mean, thus they don't want to invest their money in their "passion" game?


Which part of professional Brood War being dead did you not get? There are no professional Brood War players anymore. Only streamers. If you are interested in the revenue of these streamers, please be my guest and find out for yourself exactly how cheap Koreans are.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/466030-afreeca-feed?page=84#1664

By your logic United States of America must be more passionate about their sports than the rest of the world combined. I personally think football (soccer) is the most loved sports in the world, but I guess you don't see any value in passion from those who you regard to be cheap. What a way to view the world. Good luck with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue


So you mean streamers cannot attend tournament? Then what is ASL?


They meant that they aren't professionals in the sense that they have a salary, personal sponsors, managers, teams... but of course they are at least partly funding their continued existence by playing the game, mostly from stream donations, but that is completely different from what "professional" used to mean back in 2010

On August 03 2017 17:42 tub74557 wrote:
And don't you know revenue =/= investment value?
The investment in soccer world cup is around $200 billion, which means judging by investment, soccer is the most loved sports in the world.


What are you trying to prove? Football (or soccer, if you will) is well-known to be the biggest sport in every category.


On August 03 2017 17:29 tub74557 wrote:
Really?!
Then what is that?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/World_Electronic_Sports_Games_2016
$402,000.00 in your face.


Some superrich Chinese guy throwing 5 million dollars on one event for a wide array of different games, and SC2 happens to get some money as well? That clearly is the rule more than an exception....

maru G5L pls
JungleTerrain
Profile Joined January 2012
Chile799 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-03 09:16:20
August 03 2017 09:00 GMT
#560
You guys realize that BW streamers make a ton of money every month right? Adding them all together I'm sure it's over $100k a month.

www.teamliquid.net

Edit: after some math: In Feb 2017 BW streamers made around 342,000,000 Korean Won, which is more than $300,000 USD. This is only balloons from afreeca, which does not include YouTube or other sources of revenue. This is also only the top 15 streamers, I don't think the remaining streamers make as much. I wonder what it is now?
www.broodwarmaps.net
Prev 1 26 27 28 29 30 36 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 11m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Harstem 481
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 2105
firebathero 999
EffOrt 989
Shuttle 988
Hyuk 943
GuemChi 701
Larva 558
PianO 474
Mini 398
Snow 203
[ Show more ]
ToSsGirL 174
Soulkey 154
Pusan 147
Mind 136
Rush 125
Soma 111
Hyun 80
Barracks 75
Sea.KH 63
Sharp 58
Aegong 42
HiyA 40
Movie 34
JYJ32
yabsab 28
Sacsri 25
JulyZerg 24
soO 21
Free 19
GoRush 17
Terrorterran 16
Bale 12
Yoon 12
IntoTheRainbow 10
ivOry 3
Dota 2
Gorgc12017
qojqva1929
XcaliburYe269
syndereN125
League of Legends
singsing2378
Dendi1242
Counter-Strike
byalli366
flusha217
kRYSTAL_19
Other Games
tarik_tv22453
gofns19446
B2W.Neo1716
hiko761
shahzam624
DeMusliM526
crisheroes362
Lowko331
Liquid`RaSZi323
Pyrionflax129
ArmadaUGS98
Mew2King75
QueenE33
Rex15
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick35855
StarCraft 2
angryscii 40
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV367
League of Legends
• Nemesis5217
Upcoming Events
WardiTV European League
2h 11m
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
10h 11m
The PondCast
20h 11m
WardiTV European League
22h 11m
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 2h
Replay Cast
1d 10h
RSL Revival
1d 20h
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
FEL
4 days
CSO Cup
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.