EPTWhat wrecked SC2? - Page 28
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Jealous
10098 Posts
On August 03 2017 04:52 The_Red_Viper wrote: So is this a case of the mandela effect or not :thinking: (i actually do not know btw) Would definitely fit the narrative some posters in this thread are pushing! Unfortunately for them, in the live report thread, there are plenty of people's reactions to the travesty that was that PR stunt, so no collective false memories here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/357247-osl-tving-osl-grand-final?page=94#1872 | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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nighcol
298 Posts
On August 03 2017 01:39 RealityIsKing wrote: @Letmelose: is there anyway where we can recover the interview with Blizzard employees saying that it is now time to switch to SC2 in the Tving OSL? I remember very vividly those statements. I watched that OSL, saw the interview and thought it was very poor taste like everyone else... . Not sure why you think it's all that relevant. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Slydie
1899 Posts
I firmly believe there were 2 main reasons why SC2 is not bigger than it is today, and that the 2 expansions were moderately successful: 1: Outdated genre. 2: Outdated businessmodel. Minor issues about unit design etc, would make a very little difference to the big picture IMO. I would also like to add that for being an RTS released in 2010, the game did and does exceptionally well. Also, gamerkids born in the 2000s are not stupid, they are just different, and play minecraft on their Ipads. Play and watch the game you like *peace* | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On August 03 2017 06:18 nighcol wrote: I watched that OSL, saw the interview and thought it was very poor taste like everyone else... . Not sure why you think it's all that relevant. After going against Blizzard in a costly legal battle, the consequence of which was MBC Game shutting down mid-way through would have been the last ever MSL, KeSPA, who had released official statements with their intentions to "grow Brood War" and wanting Blizzard's help in that, instead of hefty fees for intellectual rights, suddenly released a new statement that "Starcraft 2 is the future of Korean e-Sports", just after they had come to an agreement with Blizzard about how they would settle their legal disputes. Mike Morhaime, the co-founder of Blizzard, appears on television to inform us that "Starcraft 2 is the future", while Korean commentators were literally crying broadcasting their last ever Brood War tournament. Ongamenet, the last stronghold for Brood War on television, the guys who defied the world trend to hold on to their most prized tournament, had invited a Blizzard representative to tell us on their behalf that Ongamenet too had independently arrived to the conclusion that Starcraft 2 was the future. If that is the reality of the situation in your eyes until Blizzard literally admits their part in the demise of Brood War, then there's nothing changing that. Just like nobody can say sAviOr lost games for money, because the Korean legal system failed to prove that, and sAviOr denied all charges. All we know is that sAviOr was a great player during practice, but had incredibly poor performances in numerous televised games, one of which had sAviOr attacking his own units whenever it looked like he would secure his incredible lead multiple times throughout the game. We still don't know for a fact whether he did that for money though, and I saw those games live, and thought it was in poor taste like everyone else... . Not sure why people think it's all that relevant. | ||
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JohnSmithII
3 Posts
BW was a coincidence, the way it worked out so great. But the foundation of why BW became this good of a game was because of a lot of random factors. That said, the bulk of that foundation can be attributed to one designer working on the game. Only one, but he happened to be one of the best, if not the best, brilliant game design minds: Rob Pardo. He had another very smart guy in Allen Adham to bounce ideas off of, forming a duo of balance designers - unheard of at that time. And though they would never imagine how far BW would go, they built an incredibly smart, solid base for it to happen. They built something revolutionary. SC2 had two people in charge of average intelligence, little relevant experience and none of that brilliance. Both happened to be headstrong and completely ignorant of BW's success. They skimmed through BW, took some simple notions from it, but never figured out the game well enough to understand what made it appealing and great in the first place. The first one, Dustin Browder, was a game design veteran who worked on multiple strategy games. Unfortunately, that was a big part of the problem, because he didn't understand the true differences between C&C and StarCraft. And there is a huge, fundamental difference: one franchise is much less detailed, more chaotic, strategic and volatile, the other is significantly more complex, more mechanics based and features micro and macro as its main features. And being an experienced game designer made him arrogant and blind to what was needed in order to make a sequel to BW truly deliver. What he did eventually concede was that he didn't get the game he was in charge of on a competitive level, and being that intricate balance wasn't really part of C&C, he hired balance designers. And that's where David Kim came in, coming from Dawn of War with little game design experience, but with some basic BW background. Being the only guy at Blizzard who knew BW at even a basic competitive level, he quickly rose up and became the sole expert. But both of them combined knew less about competitive BW than just about any good player in the community. They knew nothing about how maps balanced BW, what stages of mapmaking the game went through over the 12 years of its life up to that point. They didn't understand what made a good map, what made a bad map. What made a good unit interaction, what made a bad unit interaction. They didn't get that Zerg needed a unit that would give them even a little board control in order to allow for actual strategy. They didn't get that Protoss units were supposed to be strong enough to work on their own, not to rely solely on Force Fields, one of many spells and units that were volatile and backed game design into a corner. I could write a book about this specifically, so I'll stop at that. They didn't get what BW micro truly worked like (muta micro, marine micro, vulture micro, corsair micro, goon micro, etc.) and every unit that was introduced was a cheap substitute that would control nothing like what BW microed like. They were also strongly against adding useful and necessary BW units like a Lurker or a Defiler, because they believed their designs were straight up superior and it was beneath them to simply settle, if they could do it better. So we got a hundred awful incarnations of the Infestor and Swarm Host instead... That stubbornness, inability and ignorance was the downfall of SC2 development. Ultimately, SC2 was more similar to a C&C game than BW in terms of unit types and control. And there is a reason why C&C never really worked as competitive multiplayer games. And the two people making just about all important decisions were both incompetent and arrogant. They deemed smart and experienced members of the community to be idiots. They saw community mapmakers as amateurish morons who never made a decent map in their lives, even when anyone with understanding of SC could see that just about any recognized community map was better than the crap they kept releasing. The abovementioned shitty unit control was something that could be easily fixed, there were people in the community who made these units micro better just by adjusting some numbers in the editor, but they were ignored. Partially, because Browder and Kim didn't understand what they even meant and why it was important, partially, because they wouldn't admit a mistake. They believed in their ability so strongly that they ignored just about anything the community said or did for the first 3 years. And the only reason why they eventually opened up was due to PR issues, not because they suddenly saw light. When the community finally had enough and started bombarding Blizzard execs with direct complaints in 2012-13, people like Mike Morhaime finally realized something was wrong and that things needed adjusting, as maintaining a good PR image is very important to Blizzard, because that's what generates a lot of hype for their games. What didn't change was that at that point David Kim was still mostly in charge while Dustin Browder went to lead Heroes of the Storm. And Kim was still years behind community leaders in terms of understanding SC on all fronts. He'd finally take the time to at least acknowledge that the community existed, somewhat understand some complaints against the game and agree to adjust things people knew were broken on day 1. But at that point there were 3 years and a ton of issues to catch up to and it went on and on, always ten steps behind, coupled with the fact that he wasn't capable of solving these problems properly anyway. Watch the BlizzCon panels the first few years, read their website updates, look at all these proposed and implemented design and balance changes, it was so terribly misguided and clueless. And what's worse, he'd never stop tinkering with the game, even if he was doing it a disservice, because he needed to appear to his bosses like he was hard at work and to continue to convince them to keep him working on the project he had a great deal of control of. Why go work on something else where his shortcomings could surface, when he was left to his own devices for years, getting money and spotlight, because no one else with influence at Blizzard got the game at all and he was seen as the expert? He was a loose equivalent to Barney Stinson, if you know what I mean. And as no one could truly understand the true results of that work, A for effort is what he got for years. Let's also not forget that Blizzard didn't understand one bit the potential SC2 carried as an eSports title that would bring WC3 and BW players together during the times where eSports was itching for a great, modern game to propel it and RTS fans waited for 8 years for a new competitive game to sink their teeth in. They were too busy managing WoW, putting no people to work on SC2 outside the small dev team. There were no people anywhere working solely on SC2, no plans of any kind. It was so clearly visible that they didn't give a damn. If SC2 got any interest, it was only out of necessity for important milestones like BlizzCon or an expansion. They just left SC2 eSports be for years, only meddling with tournament licenses which was a pain in the ass for organizers and added 0 value. And when Riot and Valve aggressively pursued eSports for their games, they sat on their asses. Eventually, WCS was conceived, but it was still a minor project only a few people worked on. It lacked developer support (there was nothing eSports-related in the game), it lacked the appeal and professionalism the LCS and International had, and it continued like that. Those who say SC2 wasn't going to work due to being a 1v1 game have short memories or didn't experience the 2010-12 frenzy. Before SC2 ESL was mainly an online ladder provider with little real success and while IEM already existed, it got nowhere near the level of interest and growth it got from SC2. DH was mainly a LAN, SC2 propelled their tournaments and broadcasts. A lot of big offline events happened because of SC2, organizations rose and fell. The quality of broadcasts was nothing like what evolved under SC2. The success of several organizations stemmed from SC2. Being a commentator or a host wasn't a viable job before SC2. It was the base of what we have now. Sure, LoL and Dota2 carried it forward, but in my opinion mainly because their respective companies handled it better and invested in it, while Blizzard didn't. SC2 got left behind. Really, in this day and age of gaming, the way it was handled SC2 never stood a chance to deliver on its potential. It wasn't considered a project worth backing and pursuing at Blizzard and Blizzard wasn't equipped to support the game. It was a cinderella to WoW. There was no understanding of SC and no interest in hiring people who gave a damn. It's kind of like a 200M budget movie getting a great director, star cast and personnel, a ton of marketing and support, while a lower budget movie won't even be played in the cinemas. It was full neglect, incompetence and inability to understand the potential. | ||
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Jealous
10098 Posts
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Arrinao
21 Posts
Tiberian Sun is one of my favourite games of all time. I loved the slower pacing and the atmosphere, and that units felt solid and powerful. It was a very good RTS for just chilling out. Then Red Alert 2 came and I never understood why everyone seemed to like it. Everything felt like it was made out of glass in that game. Somehow Dustin Browder's footprint is very easy to 'feel' because what SC2 and RA2 have in common is that in their predecessors, units felt solid and believable, while the units of both RA2 and SC2 feel way too fragile, like everything is made out of glass. I'm with you on the atmosphere. That was awesome. I somehow still keep in my mind the memory of one particular level, which I believe was from the expansion, where you had a mutant and two robot artilleries and went after tacitus or how the thing was called. The level was all green and blue and orange from the glowing tiberian fields and the graphics details were just a joy. I have to say though, the game was pretty bad otherwise  It seemed to me like Westwood didn't acknowledge a single problem of the original C&C. Especially in terms of unit AI - really... in 2000 after Total Annihilation, AoC and Starcraft that was inexcusable. Not being able to assign a second harvester a command to unload at refinery or combat unit to get repaired at the pod, just because you previously assigned another unit to do so and until it actually arrives there and unloads/gets repaired you won't be able to do it, is ridiculous. I'm not even mentioning the flying units that couldn't go to a fog of war, that was really lul from me back then. Also returning to harvesters: the game had probably the worse economy pacing of any RTS I ever played. I mean C&C original had incredibly slow harvesters that pretty much required you to sit on your ass doing nothing for a minute until it returned back. Tiberian Sun had them even slower. Pretty dumb, considering fucking Dune 2 had carryals which remedied this problem so elegantly. Not to mention Dune 2000 which also had the working repair pads and refineries with no queue problems. That is my favorite game from WW. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On August 03 2017 09:26 Letmelose wrote: After going against Blizzard in a costly legal battle, the consequence of which was MBC Game shutting down mid-way through would have been the last ever MSL, KeSPA, who had released official statements with their intentions to "grow Brood War" and wanting Blizzard's help in that, instead of hefty fees for intellectual rights, suddenly released a new statement that "Starcraft 2 is the future of Korean e-Sports", just after they had come to an agreement with Blizzard about how they would settle their legal disputes. Mike Morhaime, the co-founder of Blizzard, appears on television to inform us that "Starcraft 2 is the future", while Korean commentators were literally crying broadcasting their last ever Brood War tournament. Ongamenet, the last stronghold for Brood War on television, the guys who defied the world trend to hold on to their most prized tournament, had invited a Blizzard representative to tell us on their behalf that Ongamenet too had independently arrived to the conclusion that Starcraft 2 was the future. If that is the reality of the situation in your eyes until Blizzard literally admits their part in the demise of Brood War, then there's nothing changing that. Just like nobody can say sAviOr lost games for money, because the Korean legal system failed to prove that, and sAviOr denied all charges. All we know is that sAviOr was a great player during practice, but had incredibly poor performances in numerous televised games, one of which had sAviOr attacking his own units whenever it looked like he would secure his incredible lead multiple times throughout the game. We still don't know for a fact whether he did that for money though, and I saw those games live, and thought it was in poor taste like everyone else... . Not sure why people think it's all that relevant. Thank you for that excellent summary. Sick of people misrepresenting this shit. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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tub74557
China25 Posts
On August 01 2017 04:10 Letmelose wrote: We're not living in an alternative reality where Korea doesn't exist. Professional Brood War may be dead because Blizzard killed it, but Brood War as a game is in no way shape or form twice as dead as Starcraft 2 in the current climate, one nation's passion for the game prevents that from being a true statement. The love Korea has for Brood War has allowed the scene to prosper without any support from Blizzard, and has in fact convinced Blizzard to take an active involvement with all the business about the remastered version of Brood War. https://www.fuzic.nl/events/?order_by=start&order=desc From a quick search, it seems that in the year of 2017, the only Starcraft 2 tournament that had over 50,000 peak concurrent viewership on Twitch was the semi-finals and finals for IEM. Just a month or so earlier to IEM, the semi-finals of the ASL had over 200,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV (Korea's streaming platform of choice) alone, and had over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world. http://news20.busan.com/controller/newsController.jsp?newsId=20170117000394 http://bbs.afreecatv.com/app/index.php?board=now_report&pageNo=5&b_no=1418&control=view The most recent Brood War show-matches that happened a couple of days ago had around 90,000 peak concurrent viewership on NAVER, around 100,000 peak concurrent viewership on AfreecaTV, and had well over 300,000 peak concurrent viewership if you include all streaming platforms around the world. https://nbamania.com/g2/bbs/board.php?bo_table=freetalk&wr_id=3048631 Just as it annoys you when people here spread misinformation about your game of choice, it annoys me when people like you spread misinformation about my game of choice. Go defend your game, but be accurate with your statements if you want to drag Brood War down in this shitfest of a thread. So...this is so-called "passion"? https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/152-starcraft-brood-war/events $134k prize pool, seriously? Or you are saying Koreans are so cheap and mean, thus they don't want to invest their money in their "passion" game? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On August 03 2017 14:49 tub74557 wrote: So...this is so-called "passion"? https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/152-starcraft-brood-war/events $134k prize pool, seriously? Or you are saying Koreans are so cheap and mean, thus they don't want to invest their money in their "passion" game? Which part of professional Brood War being dead did you not get? There are no professional Brood War players anymore. Only streamers. If you are interested in the revenue of these streamers, please be my guest and find out for yourself exactly how cheap Koreans are. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/466030-afreeca-feed?page=84#1664 By your logic United States of America must be more passionate about their sports than the rest of the world combined. I personally think football (soccer) is the most loved sports in the world, but I guess you don't see any value in passion from those who you regard to be cheap. What a way to view the world. Good luck with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 03 2017 13:00 Jealous wrote: ^ As much as that makes a great story, that's all it really seems like. A story you wove with little to no evidence and a lot of biased conjecture. I don't know that much about the design process of SC2 besides what was proposed for each expansion and some of the more major drama/stagnant periods, so I understand that some of that is partially true but when you start making inferences about the intelligence of various people I almost lol'd. Well, i know that sometimes post sc2 release, in an interview one of the blizz staff said that they didnt know what made a good RTS game, "wish we knew", dont remember who it was. We also know that when they did their "PR" community feedback, david kim have said that he doesnt understand why force field remove micro. Or maybe he answered that in an Q/A thingy. If we look at how they implement stuff into sc2, such as reaper grenades. It shows me atleast they they really have no clue about RTS games. So the post has some merit atleast imo. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On August 03 2017 14:49 tub74557 wrote: So...this is so-called "passion"? https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/152-starcraft-brood-war/events $134k prize pool, seriously? Or you are saying Koreans are so cheap and mean, thus they don't want to invest their money in their "passion" game? Without blizzard funding, SC2 prizepool would be similar to that. 99% of SC2 funding comes from blizzard. 100% of BW funding comes from sponsors or fans. Also you forget that even the least popular streamer has a high income from streaming. What is more driven by passion? BW is the only game in the world which can do that. | ||
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tub74557
China25 Posts
On August 03 2017 16:27 duke91 wrote: Without blizzard funding, SC2 prizepool would be similar to that. 99% of SC2 funding comes from blizzard. 100% of BW funding comes from sponsors or fans. Also you forget that even the least popular streamer has a high income from streaming. What is more driven by passion? BW is the only game in the world which can do that. Really?! Then what is that? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/World_Electronic_Sports_Games_2016 $402,000.00 in your face. | ||
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tub74557
China25 Posts
On August 03 2017 15:12 Letmelose wrote: Which part of professional Brood War being dead did you not get? There are no professional Brood War players anymore. Only streamers. If you are interested in the revenue of these streamers, please be my guest and find out for yourself exactly how cheap Koreans are. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/466030-afreeca-feed?page=84#1664 By your logic United States of America must be more passionate about their sports than the rest of the world combined. I personally think football (soccer) is the most loved sports in the world, but I guess you don't see any value in passion from those who you regard to be cheap. What a way to view the world. Good luck with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue So you mean streamers cannot attend tournament? Then what is ASL? So why ASL's sponsor invest so little money in it? And why no other third party entities invest more money to create more tournament? And don't you know revenue =/= investment value? The investment in soccer world cup is around $200 billion, which means judging by investment, soccer is the most loved sports in the world. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/14/qatar-world-cup-200-billion-dollar-gamble | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On August 03 2017 17:42 tub74557 wrote: So you mean streamers cannot attend tournament? Then what is ASL? They meant that they aren't professionals in the sense that they have a salary, personal sponsors, managers, teams... but of course they are at least partly funding their continued existence by playing the game, mostly from stream donations, but that is completely different from what "professional" used to mean back in 2010 On August 03 2017 17:42 tub74557 wrote: And don't you know revenue =/= investment value? The investment in soccer world cup is around $200 billion, which means judging by investment, soccer is the most loved sports in the world. What are you trying to prove? Football (or soccer, if you will) is well-known to be the biggest sport in every category. On August 03 2017 17:29 tub74557 wrote: Really?! Then what is that? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/World_Electronic_Sports_Games_2016 $402,000.00 in your face. Some superrich Chinese guy throwing 5 million dollars on one event for a wide array of different games, and SC2 happens to get some money as well? That clearly is the rule more than an exception.... | ||
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
www.teamliquid.net Edit: after some math: In Feb 2017 BW streamers made around 342,000,000 Korean Won, which is more than $300,000 USD. This is only balloons from afreeca, which does not include YouTube or other sources of revenue. This is also only the top 15 streamers, I don't think the remaining streamers make as much. I wonder what it is now? | ||
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