|
On August 02 2017 19:12 opisska wrote:
@Jealous: please go back to your post and check the 7-point list of reasons why are you so salty about SC2. Most of them boil to "people I don't like say things I don't like on the internet". The points about the wrong kind of kids infesting the "starcraft" brand is particularly absurd. Also, if you want to resort to such terms, I would like to note that to me, the statement about anything being "forced down your throat" sounds stupid too. Did Blizzard come to your house and physically restrain you from playing BW and force you to buy SC2? I don't think so. Are you really such a sheep that the your life is decided by marketing? Do you have an iPhone, too?
Anyway, I think it was pretty stupid from Blizzard to force SC2 in Korea into PL the way they did, but how much do we actually know about what would have happened otherwise? Are you even sure that PL would continue wiuth BW without Blizzard's interference? From what I have heard, the sponsors were getting quite reluctant already before SC2 came out. Sure, if SC2 was to your liking, it could have really helped rebuild the scene, but was it actually worse than status quo?
You're being disingenuous. It took until 2017 for Blizzard to make a BW client that runs well on modern OSs. And that is only a small part.
So yes, the fact that Blizzard abandoned and actually intentionally undermined BW matters to BW players.
Of course, that is not properly an argument that SC2 is bad, but SC2 is the ultimate cause of that issue.
|
On August 02 2017 12:42 Carminedust wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 12:17 DanceSC wrote:
Just my opinion on SC2 and BW... and this applies to almost every esport game out there... I believe games should grow into esport games, not be born into them. You should never take a game and force promote it from birth to become something great without first letting the community grow a competitive scene around it first. You have to let the players find the imbalances, and you have to fix them correctly, and then when it has gone through many years of growth and assistance, then promote it into the esport scene. This is why LoL pisses me off so much, it surprised me that minecraft wasn't right next to league as an "esport" game.
I think it was really dumb how the "pro scene" first started, it felt like everyone was jumping on board to milk money from it and I personally feel that was what ruined it. Lets charge people to watch starcraft, promote selling replays for profit, and over hyping a pro-scene for a game that was not yet ready for the competitive scene. this right here is what i have been preaching to my friends and everyone i know every multiplayer game out there now everyone is going THIS NEEDS TO BE AN ESPORT and do everything to make it happen instead of letting it grow and test the waters to see if it possible. That is what to me made sc2 fade away from my interest of watching and playing was after 2014 everything just seemed forced and not normal all the patches and tournaments felt like WE HAVE TO DO THIS TO SAVE THE ESPORT and the community and personalities felt the same way to me were everything was just forced and kinda hear it in their voices were two very good players faced each other and gave us a good match the commentators be like THIS IS A RIVALRY NOW LOOK HOW MUCH THEY DISLIKE EACH OTHER when in reality it really wasn't that heated between the two. compared to flash and parting where every time parting beat flash he showboat and you could see flash was annoyed by it. The story lines were all forced as well and it just turned into this mentality where everyone is trying to force all this to be like SEE SEE sc2 IS NOT DEAD (not saying it is) at any given moment to try to prove something. as the game sc2 and bw i liked playing them equally each game has it flaws some bigger than others *cough cough broodlord infestor cough cough and pluses and i have great memories playing and watching the esports and i cant really pick one over the other since they have both been part of my life for so long.
I disagree, LoL was designed to be an e-sport ,more casual at first during beta yes, but it was designed around matchmaking, and the goal was clearly to have an esport scene.
|
I'm disappointed that there are 27 pages to this.
|
Had it chime in an idea i had:
Is it possible that RTS as a genre was losing traction/interest because of the spread of internet? My thought is that an RTS starts out shrouded in mystery and the fun part is getting better, inventing build orders etc.
With buildorders/tutorials all available, it just becomes a game of who read which build order. SC2 is a game where its easy to execute a build order. Along with bad balancing the mystery left the game. Thoughts?
|
@Osteriet sure that's probably a factor. I remember some ppl said they liked the era where there were no replays for this reason, people played more creatively. Imo this isn't a fatality if a game is developped that has very vast possibilities from the very early game, enhanced creativity. Imagine that from the very first decisions you make, for each there are already over 10 viable decisions and variations, and as the game goes on there are many variations that you can do based on what you did early and your opponent. I think that's possible, the game of go has something like this. It just takes some next level balancing and designing.
|
@ProMe: Yes i agree. I stopped SC2 pretty fast after queenbuff as they, in my opinion, balanced in a way that forced creativity out of the game. I want to play a creative game and you cant do that when some guy just go his 2base all-in that he found on a forum, cause hes gonna win 9/10.
A game like you mention would be epic, but difficult to make, since you either have to balance a lot or make bland units.
|
On August 02 2017 21:46 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
@Osteriet sure that's probably a factor. I remember some ppl said they liked the era where there were no replays for this reason, people played more creatively. Imo this isn't a fatality if a game is developped that has very vast possibilities from the very early game, enhanced creativity. Imagine that from the very first decisions you make, for each there are already over 10 viable decisions and variations, and as the game goes on there are many variations that you can do based on what you did early and your opponent. I think that's possible, the game of go has something like this. It just takes some next level balancing and designing.
I remmember that times before replays and that was a times of neverending rushes, The Hunters 3v3 with hydralisk-marines, blind drops on mineral lines, MnM's against protoss, sauron zegs, shity micro, shity macro, shity tactics, carrier deathballs, cruiser deathballs and cheese strats that was never ever saw after that.
|
On August 02 2017 21:55 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 21:46 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
@Osteriet sure that's probably a factor. I remember some ppl said they liked the era where there were no replays for this reason, people played more creatively. Imo this isn't a fatality if a game is developped that has very vast possibilities from the very early game, enhanced creativity. Imagine that from the very first decisions you make, for each there are already over 10 viable decisions and variations, and as the game goes on there are many variations that you can do based on what you did early and your opponent. I think that's possible, the game of go has something like this. It just takes some next level balancing and designing. I remmember that times before replays and that was a times of neverending rushes, The Hunters 3v3 with hydralisk-marines, blind drops on mineral lines, MnM's against protoss, sauron zegs, shity micro, shity macro, shity tactics, carrier deathballs, cruiser deathballs and cheese strats that was never ever saw after that.
Sounds like a wonderful time to me actually 
I like that kind of crazyness.
|
On August 02 2017 19:12 opisska wrote:
@Jealous: please go back to your post and check the 7-point list of reasons why are you so salty about SC2. Most of them boil to "people I don't like say things I don't like on the internet". The points about the wrong kind of kids infesting the "starcraft" brand is particularly absurd. Also, if you want to resort to such terms, I would like to note that to me, the statement about anything being "forced down your throat" sounds stupid too. Did Blizzard come to your house and physically restrain you from playing BW and force you to buy SC2? I don't think so. Are you really such a sheep that the your life is decided by marketing? Do you have an iPhone, too?
Anyway, I think it was pretty stupid from Blizzard to force SC2 in Korea into PL the way they did, but how much do we actually know about what would have happened otherwise? Are you even sure that PL would continue wiuth BW without Blizzard's interference? From what I have heard, the sponsors were getting quite reluctant already before SC2 came out. Sure, if SC2 was to your liking, it could have really helped rebuild the scene, but was it actually worse than status quo?
http://www.dailyesports.com/view.php?ud=49054
http://newscj.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=92928
The above are the links to the first ProLeague that had its schedule begin after the match-fixing scandals began, Blizzard engaging in a lawsuit against both Ongamenet, and MBC Game for broadcasting Brood War without their consent. If you can read Korean, you will see that it was the most watched show on cable-network television at the time. 21% of all teenage boys watching television at the time was watching Brood War.
http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=146776&site=esports
https://greenvolt.co.kr/news/view/462?page=21
SPOTV hosted Starcraft 2 content after Ongamenet abandoned Starcraft 2 altogether for League of Legends (after the terrible ratings that the first Starcraft 2 OGN StarLeague had, in contrast to the last ever OGN StarLeague for Brood War having a great viewership). It's true that SPOTV never enjoyed the success Ongamenet had as a cable-network television station, but they have managed to hit the number one spot with other e-Sports titles. The first article is about how the League of Legends allowed it to hit the number one spot amongst cable-network television stations at the time for the target audience.
Because there wasn't any articles to be found about the Starcraft 2 ratings, I had to manually search for the dates of the ProLeague finals for Starcraft 2, and SPOTV was no where to be found in the top ten cable-network television stations, nevermind the number one spot.
The second article is about how SSL hit the number one spot for its target audience. That's right, a match between two Brood War players five years after the professional scene got shut down managed what any Starcraft 2 tournament failed to do with the Korean audience as far as I know. Can you help me find any articles or statistics about Starcraft 2 tournaments allowing SPOTV to have great viewership? It took me a minute or so to find the figures for League of Legends and Brood War, but I can't seem to find any articles about the great viewership Starcraft 2 had in Korea despite searching for it again and again.
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.
If you want to defend your game, do it without smearing your ignorance and carefree attitude about the demise of the professional Brood War scene. It is the least you can do in a Brood War forum. At least your game of choice has the option of fading away into obscurity.
|
On August 02 2017 22:45 Letmelose wrote:
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.
I'm definitely not disputing that in terms of size of audience SC2 failed hard in Korea and Blizzard obviously did some things that hurt BW. I'm just curious about this claim that I see sometimes: is there some kind of real proof that the SC2 transition was somehow forced by Blizzard or is it just conjecture? I've understood the legal dispute to have been settled for quite a while at that point so that doesn't seem to be it.
|
On August 02 2017 23:10 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 22:45 Letmelose wrote:
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.
I'm definitely not disputing that in terms of size of audience SC2 failed hard in Korea and Blizzard obviously did some things that hurt BW. I'm just curious about this claim that I see sometimes: is there some kind of real proof that the SC2 transition was somehow forced by Blizzard or is it just conjecture? I've understood the legal dispute to have been settled for quite a while at that point so that doesn't seem to be it.
I'm tired of repeating the same old story over and over again.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/524372-why-isnt-matchmaking-free-anymore?page=13#246
The nature of what exactly happened between KeSPA and Blizzard is clouded by NDAs. We can draw conclusions from the circumstances at the time, and their official statements. I've made up my mind years ago, and after you read my post, you can make yours.
|
On August 02 2017 23:20 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 23:10 nighcol wrote:On August 02 2017 22:45 Letmelose wrote:
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.
I'm definitely not disputing that in terms of size of audience SC2 failed hard in Korea and Blizzard obviously did some things that hurt BW. I'm just curious about this claim that I see sometimes: is there some kind of real proof that the SC2 transition was somehow forced by Blizzard or is it just conjecture? I've understood the legal dispute to have been settled for quite a while at that point so that doesn't seem to be it. I'm tired of repeating the same old story over and over again. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/524372-why-isnt-matchmaking-free-anymore?page=13#246The nature of what exactly happened between KeSPA and Blizzard is clouded by NDAs. We can draw conclusions from the circumstances at the time, and their official statements. I've made up my mind years ago, and after you read my post, you can make yours.
Ah of course I should've already read your previous post buried on page 13 of a previous thread about matchmaking instead of asking about it... Well now I have and like you seem to admit it's still conjecture even if you stated it like it's a known fact...
|
On August 02 2017 23:36 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 23:20 Letmelose wrote:On August 02 2017 23:10 nighcol wrote:On August 02 2017 22:45 Letmelose wrote:
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.
I'm definitely not disputing that in terms of size of audience SC2 failed hard in Korea and Blizzard obviously did some things that hurt BW. I'm just curious about this claim that I see sometimes: is there some kind of real proof that the SC2 transition was somehow forced by Blizzard or is it just conjecture? I've understood the legal dispute to have been settled for quite a while at that point so that doesn't seem to be it. I'm tired of repeating the same old story over and over again. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/524372-why-isnt-matchmaking-free-anymore?page=13#246The nature of what exactly happened between KeSPA and Blizzard is clouded by NDAs. We can draw conclusions from the circumstances at the time, and their official statements. I've made up my mind years ago, and after you read my post, you can make yours. Ah of course I should've already read your previous post buried on page 13 of a previous thread instead of asking about it... Well now I have and like you seem to admit it's still conjecture even if you stated it like it's a known fact...
Everything in this life is a conjecture. There is nothing in this world that is a known fact, and your perception of reality does not actually match with how things really are. If you believe Blizzard to be a complete non-factor from KeSPA's sudden change of stance within a space of a year, then that is reality as you perceive it. Nothing can change that, not even the disclosure of those NDAs.
I guess you think it's wrong to say sAviOr lost games for money like it is a fact, because there was no actual legal proof of him fixing his own matches, although there are VODs of sAviOr losing an extremely one sided game by "accidently" attacking his own units.
|
On August 02 2017 23:43 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 23:36 nighcol wrote:On August 02 2017 23:20 Letmelose wrote:On August 02 2017 23:10 nighcol wrote:On August 02 2017 22:45 Letmelose wrote:
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.
I'm definitely not disputing that in terms of size of audience SC2 failed hard in Korea and Blizzard obviously did some things that hurt BW. I'm just curious about this claim that I see sometimes: is there some kind of real proof that the SC2 transition was somehow forced by Blizzard or is it just conjecture? I've understood the legal dispute to have been settled for quite a while at that point so that doesn't seem to be it. I'm tired of repeating the same old story over and over again. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/524372-why-isnt-matchmaking-free-anymore?page=13#246The nature of what exactly happened between KeSPA and Blizzard is clouded by NDAs. We can draw conclusions from the circumstances at the time, and their official statements. I've made up my mind years ago, and after you read my post, you can make yours. Ah of course I should've already read your previous post buried on page 13 of a previous thread instead of asking about it... Well now I have and like you seem to admit it's still conjecture even if you stated it like it's a known fact... Everything in this life is a conjecture. There is nothing in this world that is a known fact, and your perception of reality does not actually match with how things really are. If you believe Blizzard to be a complete non-factor from KeSPA's sudden change of stance within a space of a year, then that is reality as you perceive it. Nothing can change that, not even the disclosure of those NDAs.
Fact that more Koreans like Brood War over StarCraft II is not a conjecture though, isn't it. Same with Sudden Attack over Brood War if I'm not mistaken
|
On August 02 2017 19:12 opisska wrote:
@Jealous: please go back to your post and check the 7-point list of reasons why are you so salty about SC2. Most of them boil to "people I don't like say things I don't like on the internet". The points about the wrong kind of kids infesting the "starcraft" brand is particularly absurd. Also, if you want to resort to such terms, I would like to note that to me, the statement about anything being "forced down your throat" sounds stupid too. Did Blizzard come to your house and physically restrain you from playing BW and force you to buy SC2? I don't think so. Are you really such a sheep that the your life is decided by marketing? Do you have an iPhone, too?
Anyway, I think it was pretty stupid from Blizzard to force SC2 in Korea into PL the way they did, but how much do we actually know about what would have happened otherwise? Are you even sure that PL would continue wiuth BW without Blizzard's interference? From what I have heard, the sponsors were getting quite reluctant already before SC2 came out. Sure, if SC2 was to your liking, it could have really helped rebuild the scene, but was it actually worse than status quo?
Again, the 7 point summary had a point 3, which was:
3. It failed to live up to my expectations.
Which included all of the things I listed in the first paragraph, which included many more reasons why I didn't like SC2 itself. The remaining 7 points in the list were mostly about how it affected the community, and BW's availability in the public sphere. So saying that it brought the wrong kinds of people makes a lot of sense in that context. I even pointed out that the fault is not entirely in them or SC2, but in me: " It brought with itself a surge of new users I couldn't relate with." That's an "I" statement. So, given the fact that you asked us for our honest reasoning, I think I was more than open about it. I was mostly referring to the first wave of hypebeasts who diluted a once tightly-knit community that had a different feel to it, different posting standards, and made TL go full corporate, trying to ride the wave of SC2's popularity (and doing so quite well, to be honest). It was like your old boy's club who liked to get together for cigars and scotch at a club being forced to espouse an army of 18-year-old ravers in the same venue. Many of the forum veterans moved into quiet circles where these people cannot be found, and have since not reappeared on the main TL forums. These were people who contributed, who were part of the active community, who had the same feelings as I did and as a result abandoned the open forums. Now that the hype surrounding SC2 has cooled off tremendously, it has also filtered out a lot of the immature and idiotic people who got banned, lost interest, or never really cared in the first place.
Anyway, saying my reasons are stupid just means you don't understand/empathize with them, or don't know the backstory as Letmelose pointed out, because these things aren't imagined to me. I was actually here when these things happened, whereas I don't think you were, which I thought was the entire point of you asking that question in the first place.
|
On August 02 2017 21:55 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 21:46 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
@Osteriet sure that's probably a factor. I remember some ppl said they liked the era where there were no replays for this reason, people played more creatively. Imo this isn't a fatality if a game is developped that has very vast possibilities from the very early game, enhanced creativity. Imagine that from the very first decisions you make, for each there are already over 10 viable decisions and variations, and as the game goes on there are many variations that you can do based on what you did early and your opponent. I think that's possible, the game of go has something like this. It just takes some next level balancing and designing. I remmember that times before replays and that was a times of neverending rushes, The Hunters 3v3 with hydralisk-marines, blind drops on mineral lines, MnM's against protoss, sauron zegs, shity micro, shity macro, shity tactics, carrier deathballs, cruiser deathballs and cheese strats that was never ever saw after that.
This is exactly what i want in a RTS! Full blown chaos with improvisation and adaptation. So long story short, SC2 was just flat out the wrong game for me.
|
On August 02 2017 23:10 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 22:45 Letmelose wrote:
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.
I'm definitely not disputing that in terms of size of audience SC2 failed hard in Korea and Blizzard obviously did some things that hurt BW. I'm just curious about this claim that I see sometimes: is there some kind of real proof that the SC2 transition was somehow forced by Blizzard or is it just conjecture? I've understood the legal dispute to have been settled for quite a while at that point so that doesn't seem to be it.
@Letmelose: is there anyway where we can recover the interview with Blizzard employees saying that it is now time to switch to SC2 in the Tving OSL?
I remember very vividly those statements.
|
On August 03 2017 01:39 RealityIsKing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 23:10 nighcol wrote:On August 02 2017 22:45 Letmelose wrote:
Just because you have zero information about the Korean e-Sports scene doesn't allow you to freely make assumptions about Brood War, and how replaceable it was. Yes, professional Brood War was on the decline in Korea, and the prime time slots would have been taken away by League of Legends anyhow, but without the legal disputes and the heavy pressure Blizzard forced onto the Korean e-Sports scene to switch to Starcraft 2 against their will, I think it is a likely possibility that professional Brood War would have at least done better than the pitiful domestic scene that Starcraft 2 had in Korea.
I'm definitely not disputing that in terms of size of audience SC2 failed hard in Korea and Blizzard obviously did some things that hurt BW. I'm just curious about this claim that I see sometimes: is there some kind of real proof that the SC2 transition was somehow forced by Blizzard or is it just conjecture? I've understood the legal dispute to have been settled for quite a while at that point so that doesn't seem to be it. @Letmelose: is there anyway where we can recover the interview with Blizzard employees saying that it is now time to switch to SC2 in the Tving OSL? I remember very vividly those statements.
The VODs on YouTube have cut those interviews out, and I have found no other videos online after searching one night not too long ago.
|
On August 03 2017 04:48 Jealous wrote:
The VODs on YouTube have cut those interviews out, and I have found no other videos online after searching one night not too long ago.
That's unfortunate. I never saw those interviews, would be nice to see.
|
So is this a case of the mandela effect or not :thinking: (i actually do not know btw)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
