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Making this thread because i thought someone else would make it by now, but no one has, and the imbalance i'm going to describe is one reason why Protoss currently is currently so oppressive versus T with fast 3 nexus and even vs Z as well.
I guess i suffered from bystander effect in this case. lol.
The LOTV balance designers massively overlooked one of the macro mechanics, chronoboost, when they changed all of the macro mechanics in LOTV.
In WOL/HOTS, Protoss DOES NOT START THE GAME WITH CHRONOBOOST AVAILABLE, NOR DOES IT INFINITELY STAY ON BUILDINGS. (chrono required a build up of 25 energy that was then used and lasted only a short while).
Why is this an issue of imbalance?
Everyone knows economy is the most important thing in a game of SC2 that can snowball games from start to finish.
Protoss in LOTV for some reason (balance designer oversight it seems) is starting every single game with chronoboost enabled.
This means Protoss economy is at a place in LOTV where it is not supposed to be at compared to the other two races. It is why in every single PvT right now Protoss is ahead 30-40 supply, and on 4 bases versus a Terran that just landed their 3rd and can't even fight a non-splash damage gateway army of pure mass adepts/blink stalkers.
Zerg and Terran both unlock their macro mechanics with a queen, and with an orbital, which require both a spawning pool and a barracks respectively to unlock.
Protoss is starting every single game with chronoboost enabled on their nexus. This is creating an imbalance in economy in favor of Protoss players that should not exist.
WOL/HOTS required not only 25 energy before a Protoss was able to begin using chronoboost, but the chronoboost was not infinitely available to chrono probes 100% of the time, nor would a Protoss player ever 100% be using chrono on probes in the first place because you had to manually decide to use it on production, probes, or on your upgrades.
Or a Protoss player would simply FORGET to chrono anything and have built up 100 chrono on their nexus in which case they were not getting boosted probe production.
I do not think it's healthy for Protoss to have infinite chronoboost on their worker production that disallows any human error in forgetting to chrono things, and not to mention is available from the very first probe production of the game which is spiralling Protoss economy out of control in every match-up.
Perhaps chronoboost should be unlocked after completion of a gateway. For people that do not think this is all a big deal - it is. If you're able to have 4-5 more workers in the early stages of a game that you normally would not have...that's another 400-500 minerals per minute that is a huge fucking deal and creates imbalances in the game that should not exist.
In the case of PvT, those extra minerals are exactly why the match-up is so fucked up right now for Protoss being able to go triple nexus - those few extra minerals allow for the 3rd nexus with almost no drawback in any other category of the game.
Discussion on this would be great, thanks.
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I think the old Chrono was 50% boost speed for 20s and now it's only something like 15% boost but always activated so ya... I agree it's too easy to use and almost all Protoss are using it the same way. I would like to see it back to casting it for 25 energy cost, maybe not for 50% speed boost but something like 30%...
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yea I'd like to see chronoboost reverted
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Even if what you say is true, the game is balanced around the new chronoboost so there's no problem with that.
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Not to mention mules got a slight nerf in lotv, 5 minerals less.
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yea I'd like to see chronoboost reverted
Or even better: all macro mechanics removed...
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At least link the thread on bnet (us.battle.net) and or include the calculations from that thread that show the new chrono being a buff for probe production but a nerf for upgrades and units. Also, there is still room for human error by having chrono being active on a building that's not producing or researching anything.
Your threads would be much better received if they were actually written and presented properly.
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So, this must be the reason why protoss is by far underrepresented in every league above silver? To a terran/zerg ladder hero this protoss state must be crushing experience!
Maybe nerf protoss some more so those P players left can move on to some other game? Or go to silver and bronze where majority of protoss ranked ladder players already are.
Source: http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2
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There are design merits to reverting chronoboost, but avilo's "balance" reasons are nothing but whining.
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Sadly, chronoboost is the least of LotV's problems...
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Canada8157 Posts
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wow never saw a guy who cry about chronoboost, i think avilo trolls only
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The game is oriented heavily towards killing workers ATM. Bravo almost shoved classic (fucking classic) out code S by simply killing the most workers he could. Ignore the army, go for workers, all the time. He used each and every single one of his liberators, a unit that's supposed to be a strong positional area control unit, to siege mineral lines.
Adjustements to chronoboost, overcharge, liberators, zerg T3 and other areas of the game would tone down the ridiculously high importance of "MUST KILL WORKERS" bullshit.
But that's never gonna happen because DK is still convinced that "omg worker kills so cool"
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Italy12246 Posts
Uh, i didn't know that 15% and 50% are in fact the same number. Or that stacking chrono and having it always active but in a weaker version makes the two comparable. You learn something new every day.
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On June 16 2016 06:14 MaxTa wrote:Or even better: all macro mechanics removed...
+1, good idea.
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On June 16 2016 06:47 NutriaKaiN wrote:
wow never saw a guy who cry about chronoboost, i think avilo trolls only
i was crying about this too. Gotta agree with Avilo here,
When i look up a pro ZvP game, or when i am watching my own replays. I see that every single time protoss is going same worker count as zerg till ~60 workers (In a standart macro game where initial adepts & lings don't do any damage) which was never the case before lotv. So basically you always start behind vs Protoss simply because their units are superior, if i don't have eco advantage, how can i afford to trade my thrash units and what is the point of being swarm?
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On June 16 2016 07:16 Ape_Island wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 06:14 MaxTa wrote:yea I'd like to see chronoboost reverted Or even better: all macro mechanics removed... +1, good idea.
Back in beta, when there weren't macro boosters. I had the most fun with the game.
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On June 16 2016 07:19 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 07:16 Ape_Island wrote:On June 16 2016 06:14 MaxTa wrote:yea I'd like to see chronoboost reverted Or even better: all macro mechanics removed... +1, good idea. Back in beta, when there weren't macro boosters. I had the most fun with the game.
I support this - If blizzard's reading
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Wow I didn't even know about this. That's a pretty big macro imbalance right there.
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The way i see the game is perfectly balanced.
Mass gateway units = Terran 2.0
Mech = Protoss 2.0
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Avilo is right, but for the wrong reasons 
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We've been through this with the macro boosters already during beta, haven't we? Some people liked them removed, some not, this is not going to change at this point.
However, after first reading, I'm pretty sure this post is wrong on multiple levels and comes to a wrong conclusion. The overall effectiveness of Chrono was nerfed heavily in LotV, and even the advantages at the start of the game (if any) don't change this fact.
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On June 16 2016 07:03 Teoita wrote:
Uh, i didn't know that 15% and 50% are in fact the same number. Or that stacking chrono and having it always active but in a weaker version makes the two comparable. You learn something new every day.
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On June 16 2016 07:19 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 07:16 Ape_Island wrote:On June 16 2016 06:14 MaxTa wrote:yea I'd like to see chronoboost reverted Or even better: all macro mechanics removed... +1, good idea. Back in beta, when there weren't macro boosters. I had the most fun with the game.
Please no, Terran was really shit to play without them.
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I would remove macro boosters for all race and only tweak the larva spawning rate on hatcheries to be slightly faster than currently with maybe a max of something like 9 or 10 larvae per hatch. This change would also be targeting the current Zerg issue that, according to Koreans, something is wrong with larva inject...
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I don't see that huge supply different in pro game but i guess it only happens when protoss successfully prevents terran'3rd.
And new chrono might take responsibility for that early game timing.
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On June 16 2016 07:19 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Show nested quote +
Back in beta, when there weren't macro boosters. I had the most fun with the game.
Please no, Terran was really shit to play without them.
Well, Terran would have way more scans available during game so they should be able to prepare ahead and defend...
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On June 16 2016 05:57 avilo wrote:
It is why in every single PvT right now Protoss is ahead 30-40 supply, and on 4 bases versus a Terran that just landed their 3rd and can't even fight a non-splash damage gateway army of pure mass adepts/blink stalkers.
It's really difficult to take you seriously when you use hyperbole like this.
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It's just as much the maps as balance.
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The real problem to be honest, is the amount of tools for early game pressure the protoss have in his arsenal compared to the terran.
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The real problem to be honest, is the amount of tools for early game pressure the protoss have in his arsenal compared to the terran.
Not really, it's always been like that since BW. Terran was always supposed to identify what kind of agression was coming and defend accordingly...
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Well, not agreeing on Avilo's thougths about LotV and even less now that terran marauder strats are still very prestent.
However I agree in 2 things that have been around for:
- Proto's free default access to macroboosters, since even alpha, forced unpleasant design/balance decision:
- Free Chrono >Zealot rush being to strong (WoL)/Gateway production made slow to compensate.
> Early game vulnerability
> Forced early warptgate to compensate (all in-timing problems for ages). AND MOTHERSHIP CORE
- Also Adept rush-and-blink killing probes for free to easy to pull off, nice strength vs MMM, Adept-Stalker basically the new all-in mode for protoss. Not a really polished unit but still working pretty well.
If any day it really feels like terran is having problem with Adepts, the solution is simple: remove ligth armor tag from Hellions (but not from Hellbats), maybe with a very small HP reduction. The only real unit that would be affected apart from Adepts are Banelings and they aren't realistically used vs hellions because of the speed.
We have to admit that the change to Chronoboost on LotV was a kinda lazy one but it had the desired effect of nerfing mass warpgate allins or tech rushes, but the design of the Protoss macro & mothership core seem based on the fact that the timing kicked too early compared to other races, having a part of their early game slower as balance measures.
Avilo might be right at pointing that protoss macro is and has been kinda flawed because of being "not standard" and specially because free access from the start of the match had potential imbalances.
However in the actual state of the game chronoboost is potentially more balanced than it ever was.
The solution to that was also simple, just giving protoss access to a stronger chronoboost at 50energy and having the actual "purify" ability from the MSC to the nexus AFTER CYBERCORE. But blizz prefered to do other things. Both ideas taken from WoL and HotS alphas.
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On June 16 2016 08:02 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 07:19 404AlphaSquad wrote:On June 16 2016 07:16 Ape_Island wrote:On June 16 2016 06:14 MaxTa wrote:yea I'd like to see chronoboost reverted Or even better: all macro mechanics removed... +1, good idea. Back in beta, when there weren't macro boosters. I had the most fun with the game. Please no, Terran was really shit to play without them.
That's because they didn't try things like Techreactor, reactored marauders or lategame buffs to production capabilities to compensate for time and minerals.
Neither things like reducing ghost mineral cost or delivering a lategame rax unit. A big part of terran is balanced around the Mule and minerals, but they didn't test any really big compensatory shit for macromuling being removed (which is a huge change)
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Lets balance the game for avilo, yeah right. pfff
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All that being said, I think Chrono Boost been activated only after gateway or maybe even cybernetic core is an interesting idea. It would slow down initial probes count by 2-3 and probably is the reason why we see that abnormal fast 3rd nexus speed... And yes indeed, in Wol/Hots Protoss never benefited from chrono boost during the initial start, but only when gateway was starting...
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If Protoss had the option to swap the current Chrono for Mules, I would choose Mules.
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If Protoss had the option to swap the current Chrono for Mules, I would choose Mules
Mules have also been nerfed and aren't the Mules from Wol/Hots anymore... They used to be worth 4 scvs but now it's like 3.5... They could be nerfed more...
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On June 16 2016 08:33 MaxTa wrote:Show nested quote +The real problem to be honest, is the amount of tools for early game pressure the protoss have in his arsenal compared to the terran. Not really, it's always been like that since BW. Terran was always supposed to identify what kind of agression was coming and defend accordingly...
Now that sounds like shitty design.
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Said it before and I'll say it again. The best thing for starcraft 2 is to take anything avilo says and do the exact opposite, because the sooner he and his fanboys leave the better we'll all be
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So, is a Avilo saying that the old chronoboost is weaker? I'd love to have the old chronoboost back! You could hit some nice timings it that would probably make Avilo rage, and the new chronoboost is just weak.
The reason Protoss can go for a third right now is because of Pylon Overcharge. But I'm sure Terran will come up with some timings at some point that punish the quick third.
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How is this an oversight? They nerfed the strength of chrono to compensate.
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nah, i think things are fine.
i'm open to a complete overhaul of all macro-mechanics for all races as DK alluded they MIGHT revisit when they were really mucking around with the economy during the LotV beta.
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anyone looking for the next level of comedy, imagine he just lost a game to P and try reading the whole thing in his voice
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On June 16 2016 10:42 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
anyone looking for the next level of comedy, imagine he just lost a game to P and try reading the whole thing in his voice
i'm watching the OJ documentary thing...
i'm imagining David Kim in the white ford bronco with all of Avi-Nation tracking him down in Avi-Nation police vehicles and an Avilo-Copter overhead filiming the action as DK is fleeing....
and for audio Avilo himself is cross-examing DK's balance decisions via cell phone.
its all part of the most important documentary of SC2...
Avilo : Made In America
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On June 16 2016 08:15 _Darwin_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 05:57 avilo wrote:
It is why in every single PvT right now Protoss is ahead 30-40 supply, and on 4 bases versus a Terran that just landed their 3rd and can't even fight a non-splash damage gateway army of pure mass adepts/blink stalkers.
It's really difficult to take you seriously when you use hyperbole like this.
Avolis posts make a lot more sense if you replace "terran" with "me". Maybe we can have an auto-replace hardcoded into TL for him?
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Another balance qq thread from Avilo. Chrono is always up, but its a much lesser boost to production. You could easily argue that this is one of the biggest nerfs protoss early game got in WOL, as it delays warpgate a lot. I don't see a problem with it, due to its benefit being countered with a rather massive nerf. Put it back to a 50% build speed buff and Avilo will whine about the speed warp gate comes out at.
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On June 16 2016 09:07 Parcelleus wrote:
Lets balance the game for avilo, yeah right. pfff
How does Protoss having 400-500 extra minerals every game early game have anything to do with "balance for avilo?" lol
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@ the people wanting to remove macro mechanics altogether, it could cause some serious problems with regards to scans.. Any kind of banshee/DT/burrow plays would be completely dead because you have tons of scans available. Terran could be even lazier about scouting because there would be no drawback to scanning liberally whenever (even super early) to see what you need to see. Basically scan would have to be completely reworked.
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On June 16 2016 11:23 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 09:07 Parcelleus wrote:
Lets balance the game for avilo, yeah right. pfff How does Protoss having 400-500 extra minerals every game early game have anything to do with "balance for avilo?" lol
define early game, define the number of probes lotv-toss has over hots-toss, define how this effects the balance of the tvp matchup in your opinion. start here and maybe you can formulate an argument.
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Protoss can take an earlier 3rd because of Pylon Overcharge, not Chronoboost.
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I did think about this, but i also thought that Blizzard must have tested the shit out of it and they know what they are doing. After the Cyclone and mech debacle i guess anything is possible.
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On June 16 2016 11:40 Fatam wrote:
@ the people wanting to remove macro mechanics altogether, it could cause some serious problems with regards to scans.. Any kind of banshee/DT/burrow plays would be completely dead because you have tons of scans available. Terran could be even lazier about scouting because there would be no drawback to scanning liberally whenever (even super early) to see what you need to see. Basically scan would have to be completely reworked.
well people would not always skip making scvs to make orbital
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Just remove all macro mechanics. For those who are afraid of scan imba, just increase the energy cost for scan. Done.
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I didn't think this was possible. Protoss gets nerfed and terran actually have the nerve to whine about it. I guess it's just an automatic reaction for avilo.
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Totally agree! It's also absurd how Protoss is able to keep up in econ against Zerg so easily as well. But more importantly, the old chrono was way more flexible and allowed for some sick timings that just aren't possible with the new implementation. Now, the Protoss macro mechanic has been automated, but the other races haven't!
Avilo, I think your points are legit, but you post this knowing that you're going to get a ton of the usual shit...which sucks!
>> There's only one thing that the new chrono is really good at now, and that's boosting workers. But since it does that constantly from the beginning of the game, that means that Protoss is able to keep up in workers with the other two races (especially important in PvZ) all game long, which ends up accelerating everything else. I believe there was a thread on BNET a month or two ago that did some fancy math to show that it actually ends up doing this better than HOTS chrono.
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On June 16 2016 12:58 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 11:40 Fatam wrote:
@ the people wanting to remove macro mechanics altogether, it could cause some serious problems with regards to scans.. Any kind of banshee/DT/burrow plays would be completely dead because you have tons of scans available. Terran could be even lazier about scouting because there would be no drawback to scanning liberally whenever (even super early) to see what you need to see. Basically scan would have to be completely reworked. well people would not always skip making scvs to make orbital
By 'not always' it would be 'amost never'
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I actually saw the thread title and knew immediately, Avilo.
Well played, would read again, although it should be in blogs man.
Of course Protoss will always have their 3rd Nexus up before you in PvT because of the way you play, lol.
EDIT : Protoss does not have this fast 3rd Nexus advantage over Zerg really at this point, as well as I am pretty sure they don't vs Terran either. There are plenty of openings and styles as Terran that allow you to have your 3rd before Protoss in many situations, usually going Avilo style Mech is not one of them.
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Why dont we calculate it. We take the same timewindow for old and new and compare them. The old chrono was 20s active and used 45s to reload.
New chrono:
15*(20+45)*2/3 = 650
Old chrono:
50*20*2/3= 666.67
That shows that the old chrono was slightly better, which makes sense, because the old one was harder to use. The difference is very small. I suppose, the timing mistakes had a bigger impact.
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Avilo as always...whine whine whine  but no math dude....make calculations, etc, then go and write up billion words articles about things that based on more numbers than 5 more workers = 500 more minerals...1 mule = 788324792 more minerals, that compensate all terran losses (and they come from building structures, and making of orbital, not because chrono OP)
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On June 16 2016 06:14 MaxTa wrote:Or even better: all macro mechanics removed...
This. But i guess this will never happen.
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There is absolutely no reason for the economy of the three races to be the same, because they all require different buildings and their units do different amounts of damage for different costs. The whole argument of "he has more minerals, that's unfair" is completely empty.
Yes, imbalance can exist and should be investigated, but it exists only as a whole, not just in one aspect of the game, because the minerals are not shooting each at 1 dps. When you present a complete picture of how the game is unfair in PvT, then come back, but this is just empty whine.
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"Oversight" lol. Races be different. That's why terran has the best massable fighting unit (marine), protoss the best worker (probe) and zerg the best building (hatchery).
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when i read the original thread i tought that it was a crappy post... then i noticed that it Avilo posted it, everything makes sense now
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Canada8157 Posts
Why is it a bad thing that Protoss have a better start compared to HotS? I look at GSL and see pretty even race distribution. I look at SSL and see the same thing. Look over at Proleague, and PvT is sitting at 54%, which I see absolutely no problem with. Terrans seem to be just fine against Protoss even if they can get earlier expansions than us.
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On June 16 2016 13:40 Qwyn wrote:
Totally agree! It's also absurd how Protoss is able to keep up in econ against Zerg so easily as well. But more importantly, the old chrono was way more flexible and allowed for some sick timings that just aren't possible with the new implementation. Now, the Protoss macro mechanic has been automated, but the other races haven't!
Avilo, I think your points are legit, but you post this knowing that you're going to get a ton of the usual shit...which sucks!
>> There's only one thing that the new chrono is really good at now, and that's boosting workers. But since it does that constantly from the beginning of the game, that means that Protoss is able to keep up in workers with the other two races (especially important in PvZ) all game long, which ends up accelerating everything else. I believe there was a thread on BNET a month or two ago that did some fancy math to show that it actually ends up doing this better than HOTS chrono.
IIRC one of the reasons they went with the new chronoboost was because protoss timings were too hard to figure out for other players. Protoss used to be the race that could kill you in a thousand ways, but was a little weaker straight up as a result. That drew a lot of complaints, from all races. Blizzard opted to make the protoss core army a little stronger by adding the adept, buffing zealot charge, buffing warp prisms etc. That came at the cost of the strong timings of the old chrono boost.
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Oh, here we go again...
From the clickbait title, the name of the poster, to broad and sweeping statements without any substance like
every single PvT right now Protoss is ahead 30-40 supply, and on 4 bases versus a Terran that just landed their 3rd This thread has it all!
I wish we could stop replying to lazy threads like these.
Hell, even basic stuff like the minerals/min per worker is wrong in his post. Maybe that's the reason why he is having such a hard time...
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While I completely agree TvP is not balanced you're bringing up all the wrong reasons. Economy is not that big of a problem, in fact, Mules got nerfed from getting 240 minerals to 225, Chronoboost was nerfed to the grounds (50% efficiency to 15% continuous).
The truth is, if you're behind 30-40 supply then it's completely your fault. There are hardly many pro games where Protoss is significantly ahead of the Terran's supply, it's just that their units are better by default.
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I don't agree with a shit tonne of Avilo's complaints, but the guy's got a point here. When they started playing with the macro mechanics, this probably got overlooked.
Zerg has been the economy king since BW. That's the way the race works.
I'm just thinking if Terran got mules from the get go, how different would the game then become? Yes we would all adapt eventually because that what we do for the game we love and restrain from complaints.
It must be noted however that Chrono is not what it used to be. People don't even care about it anymore as much. Even in pro games you see buildings being chronoed that aren't building/researching anything. But so early on a 15% advantage in economy is quite that advantage.
Chrono unlocked after gateway or cyber core should probably solve the issue mentioned however.
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It's called asymmetrical design.
You could argue that Protoss is the wrong race to have a default-economy-boost, but I certainly don't see a huge balance issue here. It was nerfed in efficiency to compensate for the new mechanic.
@buchh:
If mules were available from the get-go, they'd obviously be nerfed as well. Like you said, it's not like they just put chronoboost into 24/7 mode without doing anything else.
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On June 16 2016 05:57 avilo wrote:
Making this thread because i thought someone else would make it by now, but no one has.
Yes no one has, and it's probably for a reason.
I saw your stream one day when you were "analysing" a replay on dusk towers showing how it was impossible for a terran to safely take a 3rd before the protoss neither to punish the protoss for taking an early 3rd.
And all I could think was "so, what?"
In HotS and WoL, zerg would take their 3rd first, and P and T had to accept this. The economy was still balanced.
Now, P taking their 3rd before the terran is just the same, it's a development of the meta that terran can totally cope with, we have mules, we make our 3rd in base and fly it to the spot when both the main and natural are saturated, or when first bio upgrades are done and we no longer fear a gateway push.
Is the game imbalanced for this? No
Can the Terran consistently win games after the Protoss takes his 3rd earlier than him? Yes, totally.
Would the game be imba if Terran could systematically take their 3rd first? probably, even if the mule are nerfed, they're still impacting the economy big time.
You're mixing up race specificity and balance. Protosses are not oppressing Terrans, or we wouldn't see Bravo forcing a game 5 from Classic.
Here, it's the same, the 3 or 4 larvae inject debated aside, the macro tools for each race are balanced, you don't see any systematic income difference between P and the other races atm, cause anyway protosses have to use the chrono on other building than nexi to get their tech fast enough. Meanwhile, the terrans, aside from a couple of scans, can still drop his mules consistently, the zerg won't miss an inject, except maybe the first tumor if he whishes so.
All in all, I think you're using the word "imbalance" just too much, just as you use the word "retard" too much when talking of your opponent, or the word "hacker" when you loose.
It's a pity cause you're a good player, and your stream could be watchable if it was not this constant frustration and bitterness bullshit and the constant blaming of other people (blizzard, hackers, stream snipers, the phase of the moon, ...) for your misplays.
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If winrates are ok everything is ok. You can't look at one aspect of the game seperately.
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This is my calculation so far in the difference between protoss hots and lotv economy.
In hots game time a probe would build in 17 game seconds where the chrono lasted for 20 game seconds
Old Chrono 50% boost for 20s, starts after 50s and is available once a minute until minute 6 where it is available twice for that minute. According to new lotv time old 20s is equivalent to 14.17 seconds.
New Chrono 15% boost infinite
Probe build time 12s
In Hots (Given continuous worker production & Nexus Chrono)
According to this the protoss builds:
minute 1: 5 probes
minute 2: 11.2 probes
minute 3: 17.3 probes
In Lotv
minute 1: 5.9 probes
minute 2: 11.8 probes
minute 3: 17.6 probes
There is a slight boost in economy but can someone calculate how much this affects the mineral income?
However if there is no chrono for the first minute now then the protoss would build
minute 1: 5 probes
minute 2: 10.9 probes
minute 3: 16.7 probes
This however would out protoss in a slight deficit from its previous expansion.
It may also be noted that since the mules mine a little less giving the the terran a slight economy disadvantage in comparison to their previous expansion, and protoss now have an slightly boosted economy.
The eco difference between terran and protoss from Hots to Lotv is significant.
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Canada8157 Posts
Sholip, we need you! What's the income difference for protoss between hots and lotv in relation to chronoboost?
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Finland931 Posts
On June 16 2016 18:10 Nezgar wrote:Oh, here we go again... From the clickbait title, the name of the poster, to broad and sweeping statements without any substance like Show nested quote +every single PvT right now Protoss is ahead 30-40 supply, and on 4 bases versus a Terran that just landed their 3rd This thread has it all! I wish we could stop replying to lazy threads like these. Hell, even basic stuff like the minerals/min per worker is wrong in his post. Maybe that's the reason why he is having such a hard time...
This is the most legendary thread on the forums.
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this thread is lol
Chrono was tweaked for months to be in this current state which is far less broken compared to other mechanics in the game.
why is this thread even permitted?
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On June 16 2016 05:57 avilo wrote:
Making this thread because i thought someone else would make it by now, but no one has, and the imbalance i'm going to describe is one reason why Protoss currently is currently so oppressive versus T with fast 3 nexus and even vs Z as well.
I guess i suffered from bystander effect in this case. lol.
The LOTV balance designers massively overlooked one of the macro mechanics, chronoboost, when they changed all of the macro mechanics in LOTV.
In WOL/HOTS, Protoss DOES NOT START THE GAME WITH CHRONOBOOST AVAILABLE, NOR DOES IT INFINITELY STAY ON BUILDINGS. (chrono required a build up of 25 energy that was then used and lasted only a short while).
Why is this an issue of imbalance?
Everyone knows economy is the most important thing in a game of SC2 that can snowball games from start to finish.
Protoss in LOTV for some reason (balance designer oversight it seems) is starting every single game with chronoboost enabled.
This means Protoss economy is at a place in LOTV where it is not supposed to be at compared to the other two races. It is why in every single PvT right now Protoss is ahead 30-40 supply, and on 4 bases versus a Terran that just landed their 3rd and can't even fight a non-splash damage gateway army of pure mass adepts/blink stalkers.
Zerg and Terran both unlock their macro mechanics with a queen, and with an orbital, which require both a spawning pool and a barracks respectively to unlock.
Protoss is starting every single game with chronoboost enabled on their nexus. This is creating an imbalance in economy in favor of Protoss players that should not exist.
WOL/HOTS required not only 25 energy before a Protoss was able to begin using chronoboost, but the chronoboost was not infinitely available to chrono probes 100% of the time, nor would a Protoss player ever 100% be using chrono on probes in the first place because you had to manually decide to use it on production, probes, or on your upgrades.
Or a Protoss player would simply FORGET to chrono anything and have built up 100 chrono on their nexus in which case they were not getting boosted probe production.
I do not think it's healthy for Protoss to have infinite chronoboost on their worker production that disallows any human error in forgetting to chrono things, and not to mention is available from the very first probe production of the game which is spiralling Protoss economy out of control in every match-up.
Perhaps chronoboost should be unlocked after completion of a gateway. For people that do not think this is all a big deal - it is. If you're able to have 4-5 more workers in the early stages of a game that you normally would not have...that's another 400-500 minerals per minute that is a huge fucking deal and creates imbalances in the game that should not exist.
In the case of PvT, those extra minerals are exactly why the match-up is so fucked up right now for Protoss being able to go triple nexus - those few extra minerals allow for the 3rd nexus with almost no drawback in any other category of the game.
Discussion on this would be great, thanks.
Now you're just looking for anything to whine about.
Chrono boost has been MASSIVELY overhauled. It's on all game because its effect has been nerfed tremendously. You would think things like that would be obvious to someone who plays the game as much as you...
You could argue that it's actually worse than it was in HOTS because you no longer have the flexibility to bank it up and pour all of it into one particular tech/unit.
Anyway, this is a silly balance whine post disguised as some sort of genius discovery.
Is there an option on this forum to hide all threads started by a particular user?
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah ok this thread has run its course, i'm closing it. I think we can live without any more pages of people mocking the OP or whining about balance.
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EPT
