EPTYes, imbalance can exist and should be investigated, but it exists only as a whole, not just in one aspect of the game, because the minerals are not shooting each at 1 dps. When you present a complete picture of how the game is unfair in PvT, then come back, but this is just empty whine.
LOTV macro imbalance oversight from blizzard - Page 4
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Yes, imbalance can exist and should be investigated, but it exists only as a whole, not just in one aspect of the game, because the minerals are not shooting each at 1 dps. When you present a complete picture of how the game is unfair in PvT, then come back, but this is just empty whine. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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HoZBlooddrop
Italy324 Posts
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Jer99
Canada8159 Posts
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MyrionSC
Denmark140 Posts
On June 16 2016 13:40 Qwyn wrote: Totally agree! It's also absurd how Protoss is able to keep up in econ against Zerg so easily as well. But more importantly, the old chrono was way more flexible and allowed for some sick timings that just aren't possible with the new implementation. Now, the Protoss macro mechanic has been automated, but the other races haven't! Avilo, I think your points are legit, but you post this knowing that you're going to get a ton of the usual shit...which sucks! >> There's only one thing that the new chrono is really good at now, and that's boosting workers. But since it does that constantly from the beginning of the game, that means that Protoss is able to keep up in workers with the other two races (especially important in PvZ) all game long, which ends up accelerating everything else. I believe there was a thread on BNET a month or two ago that did some fancy math to show that it actually ends up doing this better than HOTS chrono. IIRC one of the reasons they went with the new chronoboost was because protoss timings were too hard to figure out for other players. Protoss used to be the race that could kill you in a thousand ways, but was a little weaker straight up as a result. That drew a lot of complaints, from all races. Blizzard opted to make the protoss core army a little stronger by adding the adept, buffing zealot charge, buffing warp prisms etc. That came at the cost of the strong timings of the old chrono boost. | ||
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Nezgar
Germany535 Posts
From the clickbait title, the name of the poster, to broad and sweeping statements without any substance like every single PvT right now Protoss is ahead 30-40 supply, and on 4 bases versus a Terran that just landed their 3rd This thread has it all!I wish we could stop replying to lazy threads like these. Hell, even basic stuff like the minerals/min per worker is wrong in his post. Maybe that's the reason why he is having such a hard time... | ||
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ZerGJunO
Australia4 Posts
The truth is, if you're behind 30-40 supply then it's completely your fault. There are hardly many pro games where Protoss is significantly ahead of the Terran's supply, it's just that their units are better by default. | ||
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buchh
38 Posts
Zerg has been the economy king since BW. That's the way the race works. I'm just thinking if Terran got mules from the get go, how different would the game then become? Yes we would all adapt eventually because that what we do for the game we love and restrain from complaints. It must be noted however that Chrono is not what it used to be. People don't even care about it anymore as much. Even in pro games you see buildings being chronoed that aren't building/researching anything. But so early on a 15% advantage in economy is quite that advantage. Chrono unlocked after gateway or cyber core should probably solve the issue mentioned however. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
You could argue that Protoss is the wrong race to have a default-economy-boost, but I certainly don't see a huge balance issue here. It was nerfed in efficiency to compensate for the new mechanic. @buchh: If mules were available from the get-go, they'd obviously be nerfed as well. Like you said, it's not like they just put chronoboost into 24/7 mode without doing anything else. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On June 16 2016 05:57 avilo wrote: Making this thread because i thought someone else would make it by now, but no one has. Yes no one has, and it's probably for a reason. I saw your stream one day when you were "analysing" a replay on dusk towers showing how it was impossible for a terran to safely take a 3rd before the protoss neither to punish the protoss for taking an early 3rd. And all I could think was "so, what?" In HotS and WoL, zerg would take their 3rd first, and P and T had to accept this. The economy was still balanced. Now, P taking their 3rd before the terran is just the same, it's a development of the meta that terran can totally cope with, we have mules, we make our 3rd in base and fly it to the spot when both the main and natural are saturated, or when first bio upgrades are done and we no longer fear a gateway push. Is the game imbalanced for this? No Can the Terran consistently win games after the Protoss takes his 3rd earlier than him? Yes, totally. Would the game be imba if Terran could systematically take their 3rd first? probably, even if the mule are nerfed, they're still impacting the economy big time. You're mixing up race specificity and balance. Protosses are not oppressing Terrans, or we wouldn't see Bravo forcing a game 5 from Classic. Here, it's the same, the 3 or 4 larvae inject debated aside, the macro tools for each race are balanced, you don't see any systematic income difference between P and the other races atm, cause anyway protosses have to use the chrono on other building than nexi to get their tech fast enough. Meanwhile, the terrans, aside from a couple of scans, can still drop his mules consistently, the zerg won't miss an inject, except maybe the first tumor if he whishes so. All in all, I think you're using the word "imbalance" just too much, just as you use the word "retard" too much when talking of your opponent, or the word "hacker" when you loose. It's a pity cause you're a good player, and your stream could be watchable if it was not this constant frustration and bitterness bullshit and the constant blaming of other people (blizzard, hackers, stream snipers, the phase of the moon, ...) for your misplays. | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
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buchh
38 Posts
In hots game time a probe would build in 17 game seconds where the chrono lasted for 20 game seconds Old Chrono 50% boost for 20s, starts after 50s and is available once a minute until minute 6 where it is available twice for that minute. According to new lotv time old 20s is equivalent to 14.17 seconds. New Chrono 15% boost infinite Probe build time 12s In Hots (Given continuous worker production & Nexus Chrono) According to this the protoss builds: minute 1: 5 probes minute 2: 11.2 probes minute 3: 17.3 probes In Lotv minute 1: 5.9 probes minute 2: 11.8 probes minute 3: 17.6 probes There is a slight boost in economy but can someone calculate how much this affects the mineral income? However if there is no chrono for the first minute now then the protoss would build minute 1: 5 probes minute 2: 10.9 probes minute 3: 16.7 probes This however would out protoss in a slight deficit from its previous expansion. It may also be noted that since the mules mine a little less giving the the terran a slight economy disadvantage in comparison to their previous expansion, and protoss now have an slightly boosted economy. The eco difference between terran and protoss from Hots to Lotv is significant. | ||
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Jer99
Canada8159 Posts
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hexhaven
Finland963 Posts
On June 16 2016 18:10 Nezgar wrote: Oh, here we go again... From the clickbait title, the name of the poster, to broad and sweeping statements without any substance like This thread has it all! I wish we could stop replying to lazy threads like these. Hell, even basic stuff like the minerals/min per worker is wrong in his post. Maybe that's the reason why he is having such a hard time... This is the most legendary thread on the forums. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1171 Posts
Chrono was tweaked for months to be in this current state which is far less broken compared to other mechanics in the game. why is this thread even permitted? | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On June 16 2016 05:57 avilo wrote: Making this thread because i thought someone else would make it by now, but no one has, and the imbalance i'm going to describe is one reason why Protoss currently is currently so oppressive versus T with fast 3 nexus and even vs Z as well. I guess i suffered from bystander effect in this case. lol. The LOTV balance designers massively overlooked one of the macro mechanics, chronoboost, when they changed all of the macro mechanics in LOTV. In WOL/HOTS, Protoss DOES NOT START THE GAME WITH CHRONOBOOST AVAILABLE, NOR DOES IT INFINITELY STAY ON BUILDINGS. (chrono required a build up of 25 energy that was then used and lasted only a short while). Why is this an issue of imbalance? Everyone knows economy is the most important thing in a game of SC2 that can snowball games from start to finish. Protoss in LOTV for some reason (balance designer oversight it seems) is starting every single game with chronoboost enabled. This means Protoss economy is at a place in LOTV where it is not supposed to be at compared to the other two races. It is why in every single PvT right now Protoss is ahead 30-40 supply, and on 4 bases versus a Terran that just landed their 3rd and can't even fight a non-splash damage gateway army of pure mass adepts/blink stalkers. Zerg and Terran both unlock their macro mechanics with a queen, and with an orbital, which require both a spawning pool and a barracks respectively to unlock. Protoss is starting every single game with chronoboost enabled on their nexus. This is creating an imbalance in economy in favor of Protoss players that should not exist. WOL/HOTS required not only 25 energy before a Protoss was able to begin using chronoboost, but the chronoboost was not infinitely available to chrono probes 100% of the time, nor would a Protoss player ever 100% be using chrono on probes in the first place because you had to manually decide to use it on production, probes, or on your upgrades. Or a Protoss player would simply FORGET to chrono anything and have built up 100 chrono on their nexus in which case they were not getting boosted probe production. I do not think it's healthy for Protoss to have infinite chronoboost on their worker production that disallows any human error in forgetting to chrono things, and not to mention is available from the very first probe production of the game which is spiralling Protoss economy out of control in every match-up. Perhaps chronoboost should be unlocked after completion of a gateway. For people that do not think this is all a big deal - it is. If you're able to have 4-5 more workers in the early stages of a game that you normally would not have...that's another 400-500 minerals per minute that is a huge fucking deal and creates imbalances in the game that should not exist. In the case of PvT, those extra minerals are exactly why the match-up is so fucked up right now for Protoss being able to go triple nexus - those few extra minerals allow for the 3rd nexus with almost no drawback in any other category of the game. Discussion on this would be great, thanks. Now you're just looking for anything to whine about. Chrono boost has been MASSIVELY overhauled. It's on all game because its effect has been nerfed tremendously. You would think things like that would be obvious to someone who plays the game as much as you... You could argue that it's actually worse than it was in HOTS because you no longer have the flexibility to bank it up and pour all of it into one particular tech/unit. Anyway, this is a silly balance whine post disguised as some sort of genius discovery. Is there an option on this forum to hide all threads started by a particular user? | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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