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Blizz probably had whole teams of game designers thinking about this for a long time. So If they did not come up with something good I doubt we can on the fly.
On August 22 2016 23:28 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Well now that the game has had 3 classes added to it and all 3 are melee (even Mistweaver spec is basically melee if you pick certain talents) it kinda makes sense things are getting a little too melee heavy. They reworked holy paladins and survival hunters to be melee too this expansion
That is a good point though and indeed pretty confusing. Although I really like the idea of 1 hunter spec being melee to differentiate the specs from each other. I am not convinced of the holy pala concept though and have a feeling it will alienate many old holy pala mains.
For me personally it is good how crowded melee becomes because melee is the only thing I hate playing. 
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On August 22 2016 23:22 Tictock wrote:
Sorry but I'm not sure any of those quite fit with what it would take to be a new Class in WoW.
Naga Sea Witch and Nerubian Crypt fiend are too specific and imply a race as well. Plus Sea Witch isn't really that different from the current Mage or Shaman.
Alchemist, tinker, and Elemetal anything overlap too much with stuff that is currently in the game. Well maybe something kinda like an Alchemist or Tinker, like a Potion's Master or a Mecha-Mage is possible. Elemental anything is too well covered by Mage and ofc Elemental Shaman.
and Demon hunter is so much different from the other classes? I mean seriously. You can make that argument about anything in the game. Both Crypt Fiend's bug / minion swarm theme, and Sea witch having this water, thunder, bow theme are different enough that anyone remotely competent could make something that could be suitably different from their sister classes.
The Naga or nerubian race additions would be more welcome than Pandaren.
and I did say additional variants (a fourth specialization) might be more suitable.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
I think if anything we have too many specs, it's a large strain on design & balance.. the game is expected to be much tighter tuned than it was 5-10 years ago but we have a ton more specs as well
Per-class artifacts may have even been better than per-spec because of all of the switching drama and the large amount of artist time
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On August 22 2016 23:28 Cyro wrote:I've found the game very difficult to play as a melee with the 29 yard max camera zoom, they unbroke the command to max it up to 39 yards which is a lot better but don't seem to have added it back to the ingame slider yet. at 29 yards i couldn't even easily see which way iron reaver was facing because you're just staring at your character model between the feet of the boss ------ Show nested quote +Well now that the game has had 3 classes added to it and all 3 are melee (even Mistweaver spec is basically melee if you pick certain talents) it kinda makes sense things are getting a little too melee heavy. They reworked holy paladins and survival hunters to be melee too this expansion
They won't change the zoom slider in the settings.
Watcher explained the reasoning in the same interview with Slootbag that had the addon change announcement. The game is visually designed to be played from a certain distance. One where you can see detail and where the scale makes a certain sense. An example he mentioned is stairs where the steps come to your chest because they need to be identifiable as a stairs from max zoom.
If they let the slider go to the new max then that would become the 'default zoom' and that is something they do not want.
They mainly increased it again because of people having actual discomfort while playing rather then from a clutter standpoint for melee/tanks.
As for specs, I dont think WoW needed Demonhunters y. There is a point where you have to many specs each trying to be unique and it becomes hard to fit in something actually new. As for the ever present Tinker arguments, You won't get it while engineering as a profession exists. I can see the unique appeal of the idea and wouldn't mind it as a ranged class but I think you will be hard pressed to come up with more then 1 spec for it.
In case people didn't see the addon announcement. In 7.1 Blizzard is breaking some of the more advanced positional commands inside dungeons and raids so that addons can no longer direct you to spots in a room (like Mythic Kromrok or Archi) similar to when they broke AVR back in Wrath. Outside stuff like TomTom wont be affected.
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On August 22 2016 23:55 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2016 23:28 Cyro wrote:I've found the game very difficult to play as a melee with the 29 yard max camera zoom, they unbroke the command to max it up to 39 yards which is a lot better but don't seem to have added it back to the ingame slider yet. at 29 yards i couldn't even easily see which way iron reaver was facing because you're just staring at your character model between the feet of the boss ------ Well now that the game has had 3 classes added to it and all 3 are melee (even Mistweaver spec is basically melee if you pick certain talents) it kinda makes sense things are getting a little too melee heavy. They reworked holy paladins and survival hunters to be melee too this expansion They won't change the zoom slider in the settings. As for specs, I dont think WoW needed Demonhunters y. There is a point where you have to many specs each trying to be unique and it becomes hard to fit in something actually new. As for the ever present Tinker arguments, You won't get it while engineering as a profession exists. I can see the unique appeal of the idea and wouldn't mind it as a ranged class but I think you will be hard pressed to come up with more then 1 spec for it.
While I agree that WoW doesn't really need more classes / specs, it's pretty easy to come up with specs for a Tinker class which all would play in different ways yet all feel 'tinkery.' A caster spec using bombs / explosives / rockets; ranged dps using firearms; tank spec using shields / energy barriers or a variation of druid shapeshift mechanic with a mecha suit; melee dps with flamethrowers / saw blades etc. Lots of stuff you can put into it.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
They mainly increased it again because of people having actual discomfort
ofc, camera+fov is weird enough to feel physically uncomfortable when it's zoomed that close.
I think it's an odd choice not to add it back because those physical issues do exist - blizzard didn't do a pass to add FOV options, for example - and because current bosses are so obviously designed around high zoom.
There are oneshot mechanics that you can't see @29 yard zoom and i'm not entirely confident that blizzard will make every single Legion boss in 5-mans and raids small enough to comfortably see and react to though i have not seen many of them yet. Have they made everything like...Tyrant velhari size?
I quite strongly feel that the fix to these things should come before you remove the solution - blizzard has a history of doing that backwards, instantly removing the solution with vague attempt at fixing the problem in the future that may or may not be good. I'm not confident that they'll do this very well or that they will even particularly care about it
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ranged dps using firearms
Hunters always had guns, BM hunter artifact is a gun. For shields we kinda have blood shield design for DK tanks i think? Not played them since mastery was introduced
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On August 23 2016 00:04 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2016 23:55 Gorsameth wrote:On August 22 2016 23:28 Cyro wrote:I've found the game very difficult to play as a melee with the 29 yard max camera zoom, they unbroke the command to max it up to 39 yards which is a lot better but don't seem to have added it back to the ingame slider yet. at 29 yards i couldn't even easily see which way iron reaver was facing because you're just staring at your character model between the feet of the boss ------ Well now that the game has had 3 classes added to it and all 3 are melee (even Mistweaver spec is basically melee if you pick certain talents) it kinda makes sense things are getting a little too melee heavy. They reworked holy paladins and survival hunters to be melee too this expansion They won't change the zoom slider in the settings. As for specs, I dont think WoW needed Demonhunters y. There is a point where you have to many specs each trying to be unique and it becomes hard to fit in something actually new. As for the ever present Tinker arguments, You won't get it while engineering as a profession exists. I can see the unique appeal of the idea and wouldn't mind it as a ranged class but I think you will be hard pressed to come up with more then 1 spec for it. While I agree that WoW doesn't really need more classes / specs, it's pretty easy to come up with specs for a Tinker class which all would play in different ways yet all feel 'tinkery.' A caster spec using bombs / explosives / rockets; ranged dps using firearms; tank spec using shields / energy barriers or a variation of druid shapeshift mechanic with a mecha suit; melee dps with flamethrowers / saw blades etc. Lots of stuff you can put into it.
Sure you can make it visually different but mechanically your stepping on a lot of toes already.
Just a ranged gun spec is treading heavily on MM hunters so you need the bombs/turret stuff in there to differentiate it. As a tank your treading on warriors and you have to be careful with absorbs as Disc has shown. Mech suit as you say yourself starts treading on druids. You would most likely combine the two together but then your getting near Demonhunters and their metamorphasis.
There is of course a lot of this overlap already in the game but that is the whole point really. We already have so much similarities. What really is the mechanical difference between a mage and an elemental shaman?
I guess my biggest 'why not this' is with the Monk and instead of giving them a melee dps class they could have gone for a Chi caster. A sort of ranged rogue building and spending Chi. But the fans would probably kill you if you made a Monk class with a melee Bruce Lee dps spec.
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On August 23 2016 00:07 Cyro wrote:ofc, camera+fov is weird enough to feel physically uncomfortable when it's zoomed that close. I think it's an odd choice not to add it back because those physical issues do exist - blizzard didn't do a pass to add FOV options, for example - and because current bosses are so obviously designed around high zoom. There are oneshot mechanics that you can't see @29 yard zoom and i'm not entirely confident that blizzard will make every single Legion boss in 5-mans and raids small enough to comfortably see and react to though i have not seen many of them yet. Have they made everything like...Tyrant velhari size? I quite strongly feel that the fix to these things should come before you remove the solution - blizzard has a history of doing that backwards, instantly removing the solution with vague attempt at fixing the problem in the future that may or may not be good. ------------ >ranged dps using firearms Hunters always had guns, BM hunter artifact is a gun. For shields we kinda have blood shield design for DK tanks i think? Not played them since mastery was introduced
We could certainly do with less Iron Reaver size bosses I agree. Even more so when they have mechanics where you need to react to their direction ><
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Icing on the cake - reaver seems to be bugged right now and charging in directions that he's not looking anyway 
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On August 23 2016 00:21 Cyro wrote:Icing on the cake - reaver seems to be bugged right now and charging in directions that he's not looking anyway
Yep, that is fun on mythic when you can easily die if your hit, Wiped a few times to that the first night after the patch ><
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Demon hunter's been the only class I wanted added since DKs opened that door. I've got 0 interest in a tinker (but I remember some guy on the MMOC forums back in the day who absolutely insisted we would get a tinker before a demon hunter and the disappointment I imagine him feeling sustains me every day.)
For races I don't really care either, but I would like female goblins to be brought up to par with the revamped models. They're pretty wooden in comparison.
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I think a Tinker class could easily work. Naga Sea Witch is definitely a possibility as well.
I thought they'd never add demon hunter because they ended up giving Warlocks metamorphosis and was super bummed about that. I didn't think they'd add another agi-leather class right after adding Monks as well.
That problem was easily resolved enough, I'm sure they can adjust existing classes to make room for a new one without too much overlap.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
I've heard complaints of worgen too
Kinda weird right now - Blizzard added a short list of voice commands in 7.0 but it seems like they forgot to add them to demon hunters. They also have a lot of demon hunter specific voice lines but demon hunters can only speak those DH-lines and not many of the regular racial lines
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On August 23 2016 02:17 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I think a Tinker class could easily work. Naga Sea Witch is definitely a possibility as well.
I thought they'd never add demon hunter because they ended up giving Warlocks metamorphosis and was super bummed about that. I didn't think they'd add another agi-leather class right after adding Monks as well.
That problem was easily resolved enough, I'm sure they can adjust existing classes to make room for a new one without too much overlap.
Tinker seems like a strong possibly since it could easily draw from both the Tinker and Alchemist War3 heroes. It'd be a shoe-in for Gnomes and Goblins, and they could probably make enough excuses for Dwarves and Forsaken if they wanted more races available. However, I strongly suspect that we won't see any new classes for a while, and if anything new does get added it'll be in the form of new specs for existing classes.
The only way we'll ever see Naga Sea Witch is as a fourth spec for Shaman that's effectively Ranged Enhancement Hunter, and even then only in the exceedingly unlikely case that Naga become a playable race.
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I honestly can't think of any races that I think are a "shoe in" for playable at any point atm.
Classes really depend on whether they want to make something for the flavor or to expand the roster. I don't think there are any "holes" in the current set of specs that need to be filled - we have burst/DoT/sustained damage for each of ranged/squishy melee/tanky melee, and I don't feel like there's a tank or heal niche that needs to be filled unless they redesign the tank/healer specs again.
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if they want things to make sense size-wise, why do they keep making the bosses so big.
Doesnt make much sense that even humanoids just grow 30 times their size when they get powerful, then the animations end up being the big humanoid stabbing the air (look at demon invasions) and the heroes fighting a foot.
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On August 23 2016 03:25 LaNague wrote:
if they want things to make sense size-wise, why do they keep making the bosses so big.
Doesnt make much sense that even humanoids just grow 30 times their size when they get powerful, then the animations end up being the big humanoid stabbing the air (look at demon invasions) and the heroes fighting a foot.
This so much. Though BRF was decent with this, all orc NPCs were still twice as large as a regular orc.
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On August 23 2016 02:48 Requizen wrote:
I honestly can't think of any races that I think are a "shoe in" for playable at any point atm.
Classes really depend on whether they want to make something for the flavor or to expand the roster. I don't think there are any "holes" in the current set of specs that need to be filled - we have burst/DoT/sustained damage for each of ranged/squishy melee/tanky melee, and I don't feel like there's a tank or heal niche that needs to be filled unless they redesign the tank/healer specs again.
I think if the flavor is strong enough Blizzard will do it. We have Demon Hunters because they've been a fan favorite for more than a decade, people love that flavor, and while there's some overlap with Warlocks the melee/ranged split is big enough to allow for both.
So it wouldn't surprise me if we saw a couple new specs next expansion because of compelling flavors, despite the rabbit hole that'll open, and another new class the expansion after. While the design space gameplay-wise is shrinking, there's still room for differentiation.
On August 23 2016 03:25 LaNague wrote:
if they want things to make sense size-wise, why do they keep making the bosses so big.
Doesnt make much sense that even humanoids just grow 30 times their size when they get powerful, then the animations end up being the big humanoid stabbing the air (look at demon invasions) and the heroes fighting a foot.
Generally bosses are made bigger than players so that they're easier to target and observe. If you had player-sized bosses in a raid it'd be harder to track the boss' location, present actions, etc. Blizzard has often made bosses that are too big, but making them too small can be a problem as well (just not one that's happened in WoW much).
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cant believe some guys are implying that its hard to add more classes without overlapping with existing abilities. Come on now, there are literally 100 00 00 00 more abilities to be had.
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If you're talking flavor, then there's certainly plenty of room to spare at the moment as long as you're not trying to recycle concepts from Warcraft 3.
If you're talking gameplay then the primary concern isn't overlapping individual abilities, it's ending up with specs/classes that are too similar in how they play. That's not a trivial concern, though there's certainly still room in the design space for more than currently exists (as long as there's a good reason for it to exist).
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