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BfA Community Links: GP : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/KKMpKPSlgd?region=EU&faction=Horde TLEUH : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/v9x5bAF3jD?region=EU&faction=Horde TLEUA : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/ALwgJnC5Wo?region=EU&faction=Alliance TLNAH : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/vPrmjJxiVnJ?region=US&faction=Horde TLNAA : https://www.worldofwarcraft.com/invite/YeZj7P0SXLn?region=US&faction=Alliance Bnet: Bnet - https://blizzard.com/invite/amvLM0EubJv On November 03 2016 06:57 GTR wrote: I've created a Google Form/Spreadsheet for people to help add eachother. Hopefully this will makes things easier for us to find people for Mythic+ runs and what not as opposed to sifting through 150+ pages of discussion. Form Spreadsheet If a moderator could add this as a moderator note at the top it'd be appreciated. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
On June 01 2016 22:07 lestye wrote: ..Yeah the tomes aren't catchup they're current content, so that will take you a month or so? The average is a little over 5 weeks AFAIK (rolling into the 6'th) but some did it in 4 weeks and others have taken 8+ with bad luck | ||
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Hoon
Brazil891 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
Player Power and Gear How quickly player power increases with gear isn't a huge problem right now. >____________> You heard it here first, 250k DPS in legion first tier, 750k in second tier, 2.25 million DPS in third tier | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21343 Posts
Yeah i facepalmed hard at that one. They needed a squish at the start of WoD and they were considering another squish already for Legion but nope, power gain is fine.... So clueless. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
+50% means doing 100k DPS in first tier, 150k DPS in second tier and 225k DPS in third tier. With three, four difficulty levels this should be more than enough. | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On June 11 2016 03:40 Cyro wrote: This is the kind of thing that they do in the name of "casual players" that actually destroys the game. There's no need for tripling DPS between tiers just to "feel" a gear upgrade, +20-50% is massive already especially since it multiplies. +50% means doing 100k DPS in first tier, 150k DPS in second tier and 225k DPS in third tier. With three, four difficulty levels this should be more than enough. Activision-Blizzard has been destroying this game for years now buddy  | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
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sOvrn
United States678 Posts
sOvrn#1821 PST. | ||
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Fatmatt2000
United States159 Posts
On June 11 2016 03:40 Cyro wrote: This is the kind of thing that they do in the name of "casual players" that actually destroys the game. There's no need for tripling DPS between tiers just to "feel" a gear upgrade, +20-50% is massive already especially since it multiplies. +50% means doing 100k DPS in first tier, 150k DPS in second tier and 225k DPS in third tier. With three, four difficulty levels this should be more than enough. Yeah, the real culprit with the crazy high scaling is the 4 difficulty levels. Blizz wants people to progress from normal -> heroic and heroic - > mythic, so the start of heroic gear has to be meaningfully better than the end of normal. but at the same time they want those guilds that mostly clear normal and a few heroics to be getting noticeable upgrades at the start of normal the next tier. In practice what this means is gear wise there are really multiple tiers of gear per raid boss tier For each raid tier in blizz's mind: To clear end of normal + start heroics you need mostly normal gear -> to finish heroics/start mythics you need mostly heroic gear -> to finish mythic you need mostly mythic gear. Granted plenty of good guilds can skip right to heroics, but for less good players blizz still needs each set of gear to provide a meaningful upgrade so players can progress week to week, and with how bad a lot of the community is coupled with a mechanism to really push the hardcore guilds while allowing worse guilds to progress at a slower pace 50% just isnt a meaningfully enough difference to allow these three layers of progression within one tier. Im not saying there aren't solutions to this problem, this is just why gear scaled the way it did in WOD. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On June 11 2016 03:33 Cyro wrote: >____________> You heard it here first, 250k DPS in legion first tier, 750k in second tier, 2.25 million DPS in third tier Who cares as long as boss health goes up in a similar proportion? | ||
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Mysticesper
United States1183 Posts
Everything scales as needed, blizz has approximate lengths that boss encounters should last, and they will scale it for that. It trivializes older content faster, but I don't necessarily think that's a problem. I mean on low-mid-tier servers it doesnt change things: http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/connected-boulderfist (Revenant is my guild, a merger of Upper Echelon and The Only Ones left in November; Singularity merged into Euphoric, and there are guilds who arent more advanced than 7 month dead guilds) That progression level was the same all the old expansions, the only difference is that we dont have artificial gear and resistance checks that vanilla had, or the straight up gear walls that existed. Boss encounters are already much more dynamic than they were back in vanilla-bc-some of wrath just due to programming and technology and design. Imagine 11 years ago if Thogar existed, you couldn't do it. We had tank/spank encounters with mass dispelling, or some other mechanic like run out of the raid, avoid fire, etc. At least they are making normal->heroic more meaningful, with normal being basically lfr and heroic adding mechanics like mythic does. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
On June 11 2016 10:17 deth2munkies wrote: Who cares as long as boss health goes up in a similar proportion? It ruins previous and alternate content. World content, dungeon content, raid content that's not the current raid. Basically anything that's done outside of the typical 8-hours-a-week raid login time. Nobody did highmaul after BRF released (and i put in a lot of effort to do that! You would get laughed out of a guild app if you ask if they're running a highmaul raid day..) even though they're both t17; the gap to the next tier was far, far wider. ------ If you're increasing the health of everything relevant by 5x then why are you giving players 5x more damage? Time-to-kill won't change. This gear change won't actually increase your effectiveness at all. The answer is that player damage is increasing by 5x but they're not going to blanket buff all of the relevant stuff by the same amount, of course. Most of it will get dramatically (trivially) easy in no time. The time in the games lifespan where world content, dungeons, leveling etc were actually good was a time where 95% of players didn't hope to increase their DPS by 3x in the entire expansion, yet now we plan to increase it 25x. I'm even more sad that the side effects of this (stat squish) have ruined content under level 90 due to absolutely terrible re-scaling, as well. This is not the plight of the 1%, either - the moment i hit level 100 i was one-shotting regular mobs in the highest level zone on the content with crits from an instant cast ability on a short cooldown. Numbers are everything | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On June 11 2016 13:47 Cyro wrote: It ruins previous and alternate content. World content, dungeon content, raid content that's not the current raid. Basically anything that's done outside of the typical 8-hours-a-week raid login time. Nobody did highmaul after BRF released (and i put in a lot of effort to do that! You would get laughed out of a guild app if you ask if they're running a highmaul raid day..) even though they're both t17; the gap to the next tier was far, far wider. ------ If you're increasing the health of everything relevant by 5x then why are you giving players 5x more damage? Time-to-kill won't change. This gear change won't actually increase your effectiveness at all. The answer is that player damage is increasing by 5x but they're not going to blanket buff all of the relevant stuff by the same amount, of course. Most of it will get dramatically (trivially) easy in no time. The time in the games lifespan where world content, dungeons, leveling etc were actually good was a time where 95% of players didn't hope to increase their DPS by 3x in the entire expansion, yet now we plan to increase it 25x. I'm even more sad that the side effects of this (stat squish) have ruined content under level 90 due to absolutely terrible re-scaling, as well. This is not the plight of the 1%, either - the moment i hit level 100 i was one-shotting regular mobs in the highest level zone on the content with crits from an instant cast ability on a short cooldown. Numbers are everything Old content has been irrelevant for a long time. With the rise of transmog, do you really want old raids and dungeons to no longer be soloable? As far as in-expansion content, I'm not adverse to the old gear up path of Heroic Dungeons -> Normal Raid -> Heroic Raid -> Mythic Raid coming back and being relevant, but I'm not going to pretend Heroic Dungeons are going to matter in a year and a half when the last raid tier of Legion is out. It's never been that way. If you were still running Heroic Shadow Labs and trying to use that to gear up for Black Temple, you were doing it wrong. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
13 years ago, there was a single raid difficulty, and the bosses were the gates. However, that is decidedly less content. Players might only be able to clear 4 bosses, and then just have to repeatedly farm that. Now, they can clear all 10+ bosses, and then can choose to repeat it on increasing difficulties. So gear inflation goes hand in hand with this way of generating "more" content. The consequence is that there needs to be a stat squish every few expansions. | ||
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3467 Posts
On June 11 2016 17:02 architecture wrote: Like others have said, the gear inflation comes from the goal of having 4 difficulties, and having gear as a way to naturally reduce difficulty. 13 years ago, there was a single raid difficulty, and the bosses were the gates. However, that is decidedly less content. Players might only be able to clear 4 bosses, and then just have to repeatedly farm that. Now, they can clear all 10+ bosses, and then can choose to repeat it on increasing difficulties. So gear inflation goes hand in hand with this way of generating "more" content. The consequence is that there needs to be a stat squish every few expansions. While in reality it is less content, not more. All it does is allow people to 'beat' the game, at least in their minds. Because killing the final boss on normal or heroic is in fact not beating the game. There was a ton more content back then because as Cyro said, crafted gear, heroic gear, random world boss gear and even gear from up to 2 previous tiers remained valid for the current raid tiers. So now, instead of having this huge ammount of dungeons and raids and bosses to kill each week, all you have is one tier of bosses, one set of items, just with a different level. Oh and smart as blizzard are, now they also removes weapon drops. | ||
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
Old content has been irrelevant for a long time. By "previous and alternate content", as well as the world/leveling stuff etc i meant dungeons and raid tiers of the current expansion; from entry level stuff for freshly dinged people to the tier behind the current one for achievement and/or gear. It's never been that way. If you were still running Heroic Shadow Labs and trying to use that to gear up for Black Temple, you were doing it wrong. The crowd running black temple was like 3% of the population so it was fine from a game design point of view to have more content become obsolete to them. Practically everybody runs Hellfire Citadel by design, so this is not acceptable any more. Classic dungeons were relevant to an enormous percentage of the population right up to TBC dropping, TBC dungeons were right up until WOTLK dropped. The original WOTLK dungeons were not very challenging later in the expansion (though still relevant for gear), but they added a dungeon in 3.2 and three more in 3.3 in an attempt to improve that. WOD by comparison was a joke, giving some 50%+ of players the gear to trivialize everything outside of a bonus difficulty inside of one instance when they were 1/3'rd of the way into the expansion u guys played alpha / beta? Nop, it's still closed beta | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On June 12 2016 04:51 Cyro wrote: By "previous and alternate content", as well as the world/leveling stuff etc i meant dungeons and raid tiers of the current expansion; from entry level stuff for freshly dinged people to the tier behind the current one for achievement and/or gear. The crowd running black temple was like 3% of the population so it was fine from a game design point of view to have more content become obsolete to them. Practically everybody runs Hellfire Citadel by design, so this is not acceptable any more. Increasing accessibility to endgame content does not limit enjoyment of the content you had to go through to get there. It's not like you can even walk into LFR as a fresh max level, you have to hit ilvl requirements from heroic dungeons. LFR and Mythic Dungeons are on about the same tier (currently, apparently they're harder in Legion), then Normal/Heroic/Mythic raiding. Once you get gear from those, you're gold and the previous stuff rightly shouldn't matter. The problem I think you're getting at and I agree might be an issue is that there's no longer progression between raids. To use the BT example: you really needed gear from at least SSC/TK (and Hyjal) to compete in BT. To get the gear for SSC/TK, you had to run Gruul, Karazhan, or get badge gear. So if you really wanted to experience endgame content, you had to go through ALL that came before it. This ended effectively in WotLK with badge gear scaling with each new raid coming out to a much greater degree than BC, and Pandaria and WoD offered alternative methods (Timeless and Tanaan) to quickly gear up characters and skip over all but the final raid tier. This is great for alts and new players, but utterly devalues the previous raid tiers. Similarly, LFR BRF let people largely skip Highmaul entirely once it came out, which is a problem. It's not, however, inherent in the gear/dps growth. It's a design issue of where the tiers are placed. You could have massive DPS inflation over the course of the expansion, but gate it behind higher dps and ilvl reqs and still be fine. It's just not. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
Increasing accessibility to endgame content does not limit enjoyment of the content you had to go through to get there That's exactly the problem, it was all left as "content you had to go through to get there" only most people are at that last bit now (unlike the first half of the game's lifespan) so everything previous is irrelevant So if you really wanted to experience endgame content, you had to go through ALL that came before it I don't particularly want a system like that, i can see why some people don't like it. I think that having more crossover (perhaps doing 4 on hard, 5 on normal and 6 on easy) is a much better system than neccesarily progressing 1-2-3-4-5-6 or having "6" effectively delete every previous bit of content. In WOD specifically, tier 18 normal was so much better than tier 17 heroic/mythic that there was just no point of doing anything else - the rewards would be bad for a new character and there would be no challenge at all for characters going back even one tier. And once again, we were on this raid instance that trivialized everything else for ~15 out of ~21 months of the expansion.. HFC will define WOD, not any of the other raids, dungeons or world content. It's not, however, inherent in the gear/dps growth. It's a design issue of where the tiers are placed. It's hard or even impossible to place stuff correctly when you're scaling so hard in the middle of old and new content so regularly (like between tiers instead of once every 2 years) - I don't think that you can account for such massive changes in player power.. at least blizzard has not shown any kind of system to reduce the massive negative impacts of such scaling. I don't know where to start | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
On June 11 2016 03:33 Cyro wrote: >____________> You heard it here first, 250k DPS in legion first tier, 750k in second tier, 2.25 million DPS in third tier "good" news maybe for you they confirmed another stat squish in the expansion after legion. | ||
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