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Ok here are the problems with threat, in addition to what Seuss said. This is all about m+ obviously, as in raids it will be 100% irrelevant still.
Its worse for melee than for ranges. Melees need only 110% threat to pull, ranges need 130% and then you dont die immediately as range and can easily kite most mobs.
I know they are nerfing cooldowns a bit, but this makes burst oriented classes worse then say warlocks or shadows. Just imagine its skittish week every week. You have no fun as warrior or monk.
I just cant wrap my head around how one can be so elitist and say its better when you have to watch out for aggro as dps. Yay i cant press buttons. Such idletime. Very fun. Wow.
That said, Im glad they are killing the kiting meta with that. Those ridiculous pulls in brh hov and nelth with a massgrip into stun and then just kite and run away are so boring and its stupid that mobs dont do anything at all. But they could have fixed that another way, like dr on slows (which i think there is an affix coming for that anyway), continueing with their abilities, changing their threat target if tank is too far away etc.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
So make melee need 130% threat
They removed the burst aoe and most of the cleave + CC + self healing from my melee spec anyway - as they did for most of them
I just cant wrap my head around how one can be so elitist and say its better when you have to watch out for aggro as dps.
Why? That's so arbitrary. I could just as easily say "I just cant wrap my head around how one can be so elitist and say its better when you have to watch out for your health as a tank" with regards to the self healing that they now do. Tank mechanics exist to make tank gameplay - and interactions with tanks from both DPS and healers - interesting and fun.
That part of the game has fallen short since Cataclysm for me, both the tank gameplay and the interacting with tanks as a DPS and Healer. It's been bad enough to lock out two of the three trinity roles as serious competition for my main for three expansions in a row IMO.
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On May 30 2018 05:43 lestye wrote:
I don't necessarily think the latter is a bad thing. It's another element where people have to pay attention and use teamwork to get through content, instead of everyone doing their own thing and hoping for the best.
In ideal situations it isn't bad. In practice it's bad. There are reasons tanks in those days were significantly harder to come by, and this is the biggest one.
Threat got sidelined as a mechanic for good reasons. In theory it can be an engaging mechanic, and in cases where all the players in a group were of similar skill and gear levels it certainly was. In reality most groups aren't balanced like that.
All that said, the tanks in my guild have been disappointed in tanking mechanics for a couple expansions now, but reintroducing threat probably isn't the correct solution to that problem (at least for raids).
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
What ideas do you have for making it more engaging to interact with a tank as a DPS or Heal player? I think the model of tanks tanking everything effortlessly and taking care of their health pools entirely by themselves has been nothing short of a disaster for that whole chunk of the game.
Almost all of the theorycrafting for whole tank specs shifted towards how to do the most damage in a raid context, that's the last thing i'd want any tank to be thinking about. I'd enjoy it more if they did 1/10'th damage and 10x extra threat whenever they were zoned into raids.
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We have fundamentally different perspectives on this. I don't think the current levels of interaction between the roles are particularly deficient, and where they could be improved it's largely a matter of improved fight mechanics rather than fundamental mechanics (at least, without completely redoing the entire WoW engine).
Similarly, I don't see tanks optimizing for DPS as problematic. What is the benefit in forcing tanks to optimize for threat (an arbitrary number that only benefits tanks in raids/dungeons) separate from optimizing DPS (an arbitrary number that benefits tanks in raids/dungeons and the rest of the game)? It's not as though tanks stopped worrying or about or theorycrafting their survivability.
Where tanks are hurting right now is largely repetitive raid boss mechanics. It's tank swaps all the way down, with only the occasionally break from the monotony. The old threat system isn't going to fix that.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
I don't think the current levels of interaction between the roles are particularly deficient
1tank 4dps qualified for MIDI and we don't even take healers to our boost dungeons any more
If the highest ilvl reward stuff can be solo'd by a tank, why wouldn't a 3 man config including that tank be able to wreck it without a healer? More tanks, affli locks, havocs.. it's beyond stupid IMO that you can 3 man with this kind of config, boost 2 people and still get a 2 chest on the highest ilvl reward content.
If we were getting incentivized to time 20's instead of 15's it wouldn't be quite so bad because it would become difficult to play without a healer and the tank may die if they never get a heal or an external.
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On May 30 2018 09:44 Seuss wrote:
We have fundamentally different perspectives on this. I don't think the current levels of interaction between the roles are particularly deficient, and where they could be improved it's largely a matter of improved fight mechanics rather than fundamental mechanics (at least, without completely redoing the entire WoW engine).
Similarly, I don't see tanks optimizing for DPS as problematic. What is the benefit in forcing tanks to optimize for threat (an arbitrary number that only benefits tanks in raids/dungeons) separate from optimizing DPS (an arbitrary number that benefits tanks in raids/dungeons and the rest of the game)? It's not as though tanks stopped worrying or about or theorycrafting their survivability.
Where tanks are hurting right now is largely repetitive raid boss mechanics. It's tank swaps all the way down, with only the occasionally break from the monotony. The old threat system isn't going to fix that.
Optimizing for threat should be a skill to "unlock" the DPS imo.
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On May 30 2018 10:42 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think the current levels of interaction between the roles are particularly deficient 1tank 4dps qualified for MIDI and we don't even take healers to our boost dungeons any more If the highest ilvl reward stuff can be solo'd by a tank, why wouldn't a 3 man config including that tank be able to wreck it without a healer? More tanks, affli locks, havocs.. it's beyond stupid IMO that you can 3 man with this kind of config, boost 2 people and still get a 2 chest on the highest ilvl reward content. If we were getting incentivized to time 20's instead of 15's it wouldn't be quite so bad because it would become difficult to play without a healer and the tank may die if they never get a heal or an external.
That's a completely separate problem from threat, and has less to do with role interactions and everything to do with tuning. It's a problem that should be solved (say, by timing 20s instead of 15s!), but isn't something threat will help in any meaningful way.
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On May 30 2018 10:42 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think the current levels of interaction between the roles are particularly deficient 1tank 4dps qualified for MIDI and we don't even take healers to our boost dungeons any more If the highest ilvl reward stuff can be solo'd by a tank, why wouldn't a 3 man config including that tank be able to wreck it without a healer? More tanks, affli locks, havocs.. it's beyond stupid IMO that you can 3 man with this kind of config, boost 2 people and still get a 2 chest on the highest ilvl reward content. If we were getting incentivized to time 20's instead of 15's it wouldn't be quite so bad because it would become difficult to play without a healer and the tank may die if they never get a heal or an external. 1 tank 4 dps qualified for MDI because you had infinite tries and could keep going until you had the miracle runs.
During the actual event it was used once? and failed if I remember right.
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When does pre-expansion patch usually hit?
About a month from launch is normal for previous expansions right?
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Legion pre-patch was about 6 weeks
WoD and MoP were a month.
So somewhere between the start and halfway through July.
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On May 30 2018 10:42 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think the current levels of interaction between the roles are particularly deficient 1tank 4dps qualified for MIDI and we don't even take healers to our boost dungeons any more If the highest ilvl reward stuff can be solo'd by a tank, why wouldn't a 3 man config including that tank be able to wreck it without a healer? More tanks, affli locks, havocs.. it's beyond stupid IMO that you can 3 man with this kind of config, boost 2 people and still get a 2 chest on the highest ilvl reward content. If we were getting incentivized to time 20's instead of 15's it wouldn't be quite so bad because it would become difficult to play without a healer and the tank may die if they never get a heal or an external.
But you are way outgearing the highest ilvl reward content. You are effectively running normal difficulty raid in full mythic gear. Ofc its easy, thats not even worth mentioning man. With 970 gear you are supposed to do 25s, which are 2,5x the dmg and hp of a 15. So you are outgearing the content you are doing by that margin.
In general i agree though, tanks are a little bit too self sufficient, even in mythic raids, especially bdks. That doesnt seem to change in bfa from what ive heard though. And threat certainly doesnt change that either.
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Yeah, that's an important thing that needs to be addressed when you're talking about balance, the experience doing content the first day as progression content, and when you're doing it with full best in slot towards the lull at the end of the expansion.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
1 tank 4 dps qualified for MDI because you had infinite tries and could keep going until you had the miracle runs.
But you are way outgearing the highest ilvl reward content.
I think they're huge problems, not "not even worth mentioning". They show off failures in scaling, role interaction and tournament rules.
Clearing the maximum ilvl reward content in some of the most efficient ways possible is something that a ton of people are interested in for good reason, not a niche activity
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Yes, allowing infinite attempt during qualifying was a problem that allowed no healer teams to make it.
So what. They didn't feature in the actual MDI competition.
There was nothing efficient in no healer runs at high keys. 9 times out of 10 you end up slower because of a load of deaths.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
They didn't feature in the actual MDI competition.
Neither did people that didn't abuse those comps which is the problem. That makes it just as essential to the competition as if you could do it in the main event. You can imagine this as a starcraft competition where there are terrans and protoss in the quarterfinal but nobody qualified without playing zerg because of the rules in the qualifier, that's just ridiculous and i can't understand why anybody thinks that it's okay for an esport competition with a prize pool
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For the dungeon reward/playability thing: I can't control how important the roles are and if players are overgeared to the point where the most rewarding gameplay does not play in a sane way any more. Blizzard can. Calling out the problem will help it to get fixed, ignoring it won't. The game would've been a lot more fun for me over the last half year if mythic 20's gave 15 ilvl higher stuff than m15's.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Slight annoyance, since im maining a dying breed of class (Rogue, how the mighty have fallen in numbers lol) im going yo have trouble getting my mythic set going. For some reason my guild wants to "prepare" what its like to use personal loot, guess who is the only fucking rogue ever while we have 4 druids 2 mages and a dk that I would share tokens with rip.
I mean is all cool i dont care that much for loot but its slightly annoying.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Fury and MM are getting good iteration, still praying for havoc changes and communication this build
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
They just announced that BFA is launching simultaneously in all regions
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/FmlrXCs.png)
Same time as always here, lol
Good bit earlier for the americans? I can imagine a lot of people hating a 3pm release time TBH!
New beta build, char copy is live
MM is looking great on beta! It got a lot of iteration that it needed for flow, scaling across target counts and stat scaling. I might have to reroll back if they don't fix up havoc soon, their issues were similar to MM in some ways but are still like that and haven't been touched for half of the beta
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Personally I'm too old/responsible for midnight launches now, so 3PM PST is pretty sweet.
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EPT
