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Bitching and witch hunting is not the goal of this thread. If your comment has no substance and could poison the thread, don't comment.
I really want to cook up a thread for this because Reddit has nothing to do with this and only leads to toxicity, so here it is. Keep in mind this is not a witch hunt or bitch post, and I am not a writer by any means.
I want to review this post piece by piece, which has caused lots of heat on Reddit, Battlenet, Twitch, and even the StarCraft II general chat on NA server:
On October 02 2015 10:42 lichter wrote:
A Decision Regarding Winter's Probation
In March 2015, Team Liquid decided to defeature WinterStarcraft after revelations of viewbotting. Our original decision was made due to the fact that there was no way to establish Winter's actual viewership count and whether it would have qualified him for featured streams. There was a possibility that he acquired featured status solely because of the suspected bots, which aided in amassing more legitimate viewers. The original investigation showed that his stream was a target of botting, but there was no way to establish beyond reasonable doubt the person who was responsible for the botting.
Based on the evidence provided, we decided that the best course of action was to remove WinterStarcraft from our featured streams list and put him on a 6 month probation. At the same time, Winter promised to change his stream and attempt to clear the accusations. During this time, he remained a spotlighted Twitch streamer.
Now that his probation period has expired, we must revisit our decision and decide whether or not to refeature him. This has been a very high profile case, so we do not take this decision lightly. We have placed the burden of proof on Winter to show that his stream is clean and that the problem is past him.
Based on the evidence he provided, we have decided to refeature Winter. He was very cooperative during the probation period and the deliberation process, and he provided private information that shows his real streaming numbers (extrapolated from the data) are more than good enough to be featured. While we cannot divulge exactly what information he showed us or explain how that data supports his claims, it became evident even to the most skeptical among us that—based on what he showed us—he deserves to be refeatured. Coupled with the fact that Blizzard and Twitch continue to support him, we have no reason to keep him off the list.
We at Team Liquid believe in giving people second chances, and that people can change for the better. Winter's stream looks healthy and he's shown enough proof to convince us to refeature him. We hope that everyone has learned their lesson from this fiasco, and that everyone avoids such mischievous behavior in the future.
On October 02 2015 10:42 lichter wrote:
While we cannot divulge exactly what information he showed us or explain how that data supports his claims, it became evident even to the most skeptical among us that—based on what he showed us—he deserves to be refeatured.
Why not? This isn't linked to Twitch business numbers, this is solely about viewers. Streamers can't give data about things like that without having teeth in their ass for it, and if any evidence provided has such data involved, it is useless (i.e. sub to viewer ratio and whatnot). This is, again, the same thing you see big businesses say when they fucked up but don't want people to know.
I could just as easily say "The sky is green. While I can't provide any proof of this to the public, I can assure you my internal testing and review of the data collected confirms the sky is indeed green.
On October 02 2015 10:42 lichter wrote:
Coupled with the fact that Blizzard and Twitch continue to support him, we have no reason to keep him off the list.
Blizzard has never stated this. They made a single post addressing it and that was during the stream votes on the Battle.net forums, stating it was only data driven and without absolute evidence, he cannot be disqualified. This does not in any way state that Blizzard supports Winter. Feel free to check the post here, it's a paragraph and two bullet points.
As for Twitch, WIMPYWIMPYWIMPY has said Twitch dropped the investigation and never seriously looked into it. I don't know how to contact him outside of Twitch, so all I can suggest is message him. He also watches big StarCraft tournaments sometimes, whisper him in chat about it. Twitch employees show at the top of the list, you will see his name.
On October 02 2015 10:42 lichter wrote:
We at Team Liquid believe in giving people second chances, and that people can change for the better.
TeamLiquid's whole thing is not taking any bullshit. Look at Scan, because some Korean was a twat like ten years ago he's banned from TL and his wiki page is full of shit like saying he hacked in tournaments. The guy was an asshat at the time, but Team Liquid made sure he was shunned. Remember when he got top 16 GM in just a single month of playing SC2, and all the threads or mentions about it resulted in closed threads and warnings/temporary bans? Why should Winter be treated any differently?
If Team Liquid is going to feature Winter considering all the toxicity this has caused in the community, you people are doing nothing more but stirring the pot by not providing any evidence whatsoever. Your word consists of nothing more than "We couldn't determine if Winter was botting." Taking all the drama away, to bot at that level for such an extended period of time is extremely expensive. It requires a lot of resources and time to do such a thing. Without any evidence, this means next to nothing.
TL;DR: Without actual evidence to provide to the community, this only starts trouble and adds fuel to the fire.
Also, this:
Holy fuck. I'll start with that because I know all my comments are going to be instantly downvoted (I beg of you please not this one).
I haven't gone through in detail because obviously this is comprehensive as fuck. and I even don't fully grasp it.
I.... I don't want to believe it. I don't want to believe everyone was right all this time to an extent.
I have moved on past the accusations for months, almost years since people gave them any real credence. I have even begun to regard them in a completely joking manner.
I'm going to be cliche as fuck here. Real talk. I have thought about, I've gone so far as to even look up viewbotting sites (especially after being viewbotted blatantly before). I would never go as far as this.
I've had insane growth since I went full time thanks to just hundreds, not thousands of viewers. I've had the best year of my life probably. FUCK.
Is there a possibility of viewbots being automatically turned on whenever I turn on my channel. How many are there. Is it happening when I stream on NVIDIA too? I honestly would like more detail and want it public.
Can someone break down this in simple terms, as I am actually convinced. This hurts a lot.
EDIT: This post doesn't hurt as much as the validity of it.
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he is 60-70%+ of star2 stream number. that is reason lol...
and also why it is hard to believe that he is not cheater.
Holy fuck. I'll start with that because I know all my comments are going to be instantly downvoted (I beg of you please not this one).
I haven't gone through in detail because obviously this is comprehensive as fuck. and I even don't fully grasp it.
I.... I don't want to believe it. I don't want to believe everyone was right all this time to an extent.
I have moved on past the accusations for months, almost years since people gave them any real credence. I have even begun to regard them in a completely joking manner.
I'm going to be cliche as fuck here. Real talk. I have thought about, I've gone so far as to even look up viewbotting sites (especially after being viewbotted blatantly before). I would never go as far as this.
I've had insane growth since I went full time thanks to just hundreds, not thousands of viewers. I've had the best year of my life probably. FUCK.
Is there a possibility of viewbots being automatically turned on whenever I turn on my channel. How many are there. Is it happening when I stream on NVIDIA too? I honestly would like more detail and want it public.
Can someone break down this in simple terms, as I am actually convinced. This hurts a lot.
EDIT: This post doesn't hurt as much as the validity of it.
lol???... this is a calculated non-admission of guilt to draw sympathy. writing is not oral, it is formulated. and this is disgusting.
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tl really wish to follow principle, and devotedly follow principle that "beyond a reasonable doubt" evidence is required to make judgement.
even when it is obvious to most people, and more important majority of community do not wish to see him stain their community space, the staff of community ignores all of community and instead follow principle blindly
when proof is given they finally do a punishment but do not make punishment like they would for TSL ladder b/c they do not have "beyond a reasonable doubt" that it was him who did it for him, not other person...
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Here we go again. Winter going to be invited to next HomeStory Cup again because he is a prominent figure.
There are tangible benefits that top streamers get.
This guy knowingly view bots, lies about it, gets caught, and begs for his manipulation to continue.
I'm sure he has been begging TL for a very long time. And finally they gave in because "I didn't buy them for myself"
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I dont even know where a guy like him would be in the streamer list at all, he donated to himself to have something pop up on his stream to encourage others to donate as well.
What is wrong having him "only" on the nonfeatured list?
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Thou forgot the ten commandments: it's their house. They can do what they want and don't need to show any transparency. If they don't like you they can simply remove you from the forums.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Basically he was refeatured because he could prove that he had a legitimate viewership. We punished him for any prior instance viewbotting (as much as we could), for us it's no longer about what happened in the past and entirely about what's happening now. Proving a legitimate viewership can be tricky since it's all about showing supporting evidence to provide reasonable proof that the viewer count is legitimate. This could be through twitch subs, evidence of viewership/user base on other websites and/or services and so on. Some of those metrics are confidential and we can't release them publicly.
Winter showed us evidence of that nature, we checked it with the relevant sources and it was legitimate. We estimated his viewership based on these metrics and the numbers were more than sufficient to be featured. Since this is a statement about whether or not he is viewbotting today, we're satisfied that this is not happening at present.
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On October 02 2015 19:16 Plexa wrote:
Basically he was refeatured because he could prove that he had a legitimate viewership. We punished him for any prior instance viewbotting (as much as we could), for us it's no longer about what happened in the past and entirely about what's happening now. Proving a legitimate viewership can be tricky since it's all about showing supporting evidence to provide reasonable proof that the viewer count is legitimate. This could be through twitch subs, evidence of viewership/user base on other websites and/or services and so on. Some of those metrics are confidential and we can't release them publicly.
Winter showed us evidence of that nature, we checked it with the relevant sources and it was legitimate. We estimated his viewership based on these metrics and the numbers were more than sufficient to be featured. Since this is a statement about whether or not he is viewbotting today, we're satisfied that this is not happening at present.
The thing about all of this is that without anything to show the community whatsoever, you could be talking out of your ass for all we know. This is more of a request for actual proof of what is being stated than anything else.
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On October 02 2015 19:16 Plexa wrote:
Basically he was refeatured because he could prove that he had a legitimate viewership. We punished him for any prior instance viewbotting (as much as we could), for us it's no longer about what happened in the past and entirely about what's happening now. Proving a legitimate viewership can be tricky since it's all about showing supporting evidence to provide reasonable proof that the viewer count is legitimate. This could be through twitch subs, evidence of viewership/user base on other websites and/or services and so on. Some of those metrics are confidential and we can't release them publicly.
Winter showed us evidence of that nature, we checked it with the relevant sources and it was legitimate. We estimated his viewership based on these metrics and the numbers were more than sufficient to be featured. Since this is a statement about whether or not he is viewbotting today, we're satisfied that this is not happening at present.
So you have evidence that that a percentage of the viewers are legit, ok. But you don't deny the very likely possiblity that he is also heavily viewbotting on top of that?
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On October 02 2015 19:23 Dickbutt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 19:16 Plexa wrote:
Basically he was refeatured because he could prove that he had a legitimate viewership. We punished him for any prior instance viewbotting (as much as we could), for us it's no longer about what happened in the past and entirely about what's happening now. Proving a legitimate viewership can be tricky since it's all about showing supporting evidence to provide reasonable proof that the viewer count is legitimate. This could be through twitch subs, evidence of viewership/user base on other websites and/or services and so on. Some of those metrics are confidential and we can't release them publicly.
Winter showed us evidence of that nature, we checked it with the relevant sources and it was legitimate. We estimated his viewership based on these metrics and the numbers were more than sufficient to be featured. Since this is a statement about whether or not he is viewbotting today, we're satisfied that this is not happening at present. The thing about all of this is that without anything to show the community whatsoever, you could be talking out of your ass for all we know. This is more of a request for actual proof of what is being stated than anything else.
They don't have to prove shit to you. Why does this community have so much self-entitlement? ._.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Please read the follow up statement. As much as I would like to reveal the information and the rationale, Team Liquid will not break the trust of persons or organizations that gave the information because of public pressure.
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TL may feature him again. And that's their rightful decision. But as long as there is no proof I can see, I personally do not have a single reason to believe Winter's current innocence.
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Well if TL-Staff has been convinced by Data provided by Winter, about Winter, that Winter does not bot,
this might means people actually watch winter.
The fact he was caught donating to himself to manipulate viewers is no criteria for TL.
Is his toxic behaviour of mostly bashing low leaguers with smurfs a base to not feature him(Does he really do that though? What does he do, can't stand watching him for over a minute)? I'd say it is damaging for the community and people that want to get into SC2, could we argue that the savior ruling should apply to him?
Manifesto7
Profile Blog PM Joined November 2002
Osaka25551 Posts
November 15 2011 03:02 CET #1409
You can still stream savior and watch savior, just not on TL. TL is not going to give him any support in any way, which includes having his stream featured on the site. If you want to support a guy that damaged the game more than anyone else, ever, that is on you. Don't expect us to help you.
Was Sc2 damaged more by Winter than by anyone? Would Blizzard have reacted earlier to the broken game if Sc2 did not even manage to get the 1000 viewbots he provided?
If there is anyone on TL that actually watches Winter, what is it that makes his Stream more popular than the streams of TLO, Morrow, Incontrol, all those charismatic fellows?
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On October 02 2015 19:50 HaRuHi wrote:Well if TL-Staff has been convinced by Data provided by Winter, about Winter, that Winter does not bot, this might means people actually watch winter. The fact he was caught donating to himself to manipulate viewers is no criteria for TL. Is his toxic behaviour of mostly bashing low leaguers with smurfs a base to not feature him(Does he really do that though? What does he do, can't stand watching him for over a minute)? I'd say it is damaging for the community and people that want to get into SC2, could we argue that the savior ruling should apply to him? Show nested quote + Manifesto7
Profile Blog PM Joined November 2002
Osaka25551 Posts
November 15 2011 03:02 CET #1409
You can still stream savior and watch savior, just not on TL. TL is not going to give him any support in any way, which includes having his stream featured on the site. If you want to support a guy that damaged the game more than anyone else, ever, that is on you. Don't expect us to help you. Was Sc2 damaged more by Winter than by anyone? Would Blizzard have reacted earlier to the broken game if Sc2 did not even manage to get the 1000 viewbots he provided? If there is anyone on TL that actually watches Winter, what is it that makes his Stream more popular than the streams of TLO, Morrow, Incontrol, all those charismatic fellows?
Are you REALLY comparing Winter to SaviOr ? It's like comparing a DUI with Charlie Manson.
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On October 02 2015 19:50 HaRuHi wrote:Well if TL-Staff has been convinced by Data provided by Winter, about Winter, that Winter does not bot, this might means people actually watch winter. The fact he was caught donating to himself to manipulate viewers is no criteria for TL. Is his toxic behaviour of mostly bashing low leaguers with smurfs a base to not feature him(Does he really do that though? What does he do, can't stand watching him for over a minute)? I'd say it is damaging for the community and people that want to get into SC2, could we argue that the savior ruling should apply to him? Show nested quote + Manifesto7
Profile Blog PM Joined November 2002
Osaka25551 Posts
November 15 2011 03:02 CET #1409
You can still stream savior and watch savior, just not on TL. TL is not going to give him any support in any way, which includes having his stream featured on the site. If you want to support a guy that damaged the game more than anyone else, ever, that is on you. Don't expect us to help you. Was Sc2 damaged more by Winter than by anyone? Would Blizzard have reacted earlier to the broken game if Sc2 did not even manage to get the 1000 viewbots he provided? If there is anyone on TL that actually watches Winter, what is it that makes his Stream more popular than the streams of TLO, Morrow, Incontrol, all those charismatic fellows?
They aren't being fair, though. Team Liquid tends to side notable people or those that have heavily contributed to the community, but nobody actually likes Winter. He is hated.
Again, the Scan example. By far the most popular Brood War streamer on Twitch but because of idiocy many years ago he's beaten with a stick. If you're going to wait less than a year for somebody as hated as Winter who still very clearly bots (just look at the chat, man), at least be fair about it and unban/feature everybody else they stripped from TL.
Winter is not a community figure, he is notoriously hated. Even if he has a following, Team Liquid can't endorse something as controversial as this and do nothing to the dozens of figures they have banished from their site.
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You say you don't want a witch hunt but its exactly what you do.
Teamliquid gets no advantage from featuring winter. Most of winter fans log into his stream from twitch. Teamliquid doesn't get huge traffic.
There are many sc2 streamer who get 1000-2000 viewers (demuslim, stephano who is special but retired for the past 2-3 years, avilo, ...) . Winter is good for the community. His stream is informative, interesting and good for newcomer. If we get a witch hunt again its only because people are jealous of him.
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On October 02 2015 20:08 todespolka wrote:
You say you don't want a witch hunt but its exactly what you do.
Teamliquid gets no advantage from featuring winter. Most of winter fans log into his stream from twitch. Teamliquid doesn't get huge traffic.
There are many sc2 streamer who get 1000-2000 viewers (demuslim, stephano who is special but retired for the past 2-3 years, avilo, ...) . Winter is good for the community. His stream is informative, interesting and good for newcomer. If we get a witch hunt again its only because people are jealous of him.
It's not a witch hunt, it's fair play. It's clear I don't like him and I'm not trying to hide that, but we have absolutely no information other than "We have featured him again." It doesn't make sense considering what they do to other popular faces here.
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On October 02 2015 19:50 HaRuHi wrote:
If there is anyone on TL that actually watches Winter, what is it that makes his Stream more popular than the streams of TLO, Morrow, Incontrol, all those charismatic fellows?
The pro players you are listing here dont talk when they play. That makes them very boring to watch. Also I havent seen a stream of a pro player which was as informative as winters stream. He gives very clear instructions and explains what people have to scout and when to decide this and that. You should lay down your bias and watch his stream for once.
Why did people watch idra? He has left multiple tournaments without a reason. He had nothing achieved in the last two years of his carrier. To be honest he managed to win one or two major/premier at the start of wol and thats it. Was there anything else? Non the less he had allways the most viewers (4000-8000). How do you explain that? How was it possible that 1000 times better player had only a few hundreds when he had 6000 viewers?
People arent interested in pro players when they watch streams. They want entertainment first! Every other point is only secondary.
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On October 02 2015 20:09 Dickbutt wrote:
It's not a witch hunt, it's fair play. It's clear I don't like him and I'm not trying to hide that, but we have absolutely no information other than "We have featured him again." It doesn't make sense considering what they do to other popular faces here.
Dont you trust teamliquid? They get nothing out of this. They take even a big risk in featuring him again because of community backlash.
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On October 02 2015 20:20 todespolka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 19:50 HaRuHi wrote:
If there is anyone on TL that actually watches Winter, what is it that makes his Stream more popular than the streams of TLO, Morrow, Incontrol, all those charismatic fellows? The pro players you are listing here dont talk when they play. That makes them very boring to watch. Also I havent seen a stream of a pro player which was as informative as winters stream. He gives very clear instructions and explains what people have to scout and when to decide this and that. You should lay down your bias and watch his stream for once. Why did people watch idra? He has left multiple tournaments without a reason. He had nothing achieved in the last two years of his carrier. To be honest he managed to win one or two major/premier at the start of wol and thats it. Was there anything else? Non the less he had allways the most viewers (4000-8000). How do you explain that? How was it possible that 1000 times better player had only a few hundreds when he had 6000 viewers? People arent interested in pro players when they watch streams. They want entertainment first! Every other point is only secondary.
EDIT: Most of the community laughs at Winter's knowledge, as he pretends to know all this stuff about StarCraft but most of the time he's wrong. Back in late 2014 when people were hating on him for drone rushing people in Bronze league I turned on the stream and he was lecturing about how you can put 16 mules on a single base, which is wrong.
Most pro players that regularly stream aside from ForGG and MC (he speaks Korean mostly) are much more vibrant than Winter.
Last time I turned on Winter's stream he was beating on a Silver player in LotV massing changelings with a blank face and totally silent till the game lagged to unplayable levels. Morrow, Naniwa, Incontrol, Demuslim, the list goes on and on. There are even smaller streamers like Morn that only pull 20 viewers or so on a super busy day that still have better commentary than Winter.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:07 Dickbutt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 19:50 HaRuHi wrote:Well if TL-Staff has been convinced by Data provided by Winter, about Winter, that Winter does not bot, this might means people actually watch winter. The fact he was caught donating to himself to manipulate viewers is no criteria for TL. Is his toxic behaviour of mostly bashing low leaguers with smurfs a base to not feature him(Does he really do that though? What does he do, can't stand watching him for over a minute)? I'd say it is damaging for the community and people that want to get into SC2, could we argue that the savior ruling should apply to him? Manifesto7
Profile Blog PM Joined November 2002
Osaka25551 Posts
November 15 2011 03:02 CET #1409
You can still stream savior and watch savior, just not on TL. TL is not going to give him any support in any way, which includes having his stream featured on the site. If you want to support a guy that damaged the game more than anyone else, ever, that is on you. Don't expect us to help you. Was Sc2 damaged more by Winter than by anyone? Would Blizzard have reacted earlier to the broken game if Sc2 did not even manage to get the 1000 viewbots he provided? If there is anyone on TL that actually watches Winter, what is it that makes his Stream more popular than the streams of TLO, Morrow, Incontrol, all those charismatic fellows? They aren't being fair, though. Team Liquid tends to side notable people or those that have heavily contributed to the community, but nobody actually likes Winter. He is hated. Again, the Scan example. By far the most popular Brood War streamer on Twitch but because of idiocy many years ago he's beaten with a stick. If you're going to wait less than a year for somebody as hated as Winter who still very clearly bots (just look at the chat, man), at least be fair about it and unban/feature everybody else they stripped from TL. Winter is not a community figure, he is notoriously hated. Even if he has a following, Team Liquid can't endorse something as controversial as this and do nothing to the dozens of figures they have banished from their site.
If there are issues with other streamers/personalities then those issues can be discussed in another thread. Bring them up in website feedback and we'll have a proper discussion about those things. The only questions we should be concerned with are
1) Is Winter continuing to viewbot
2) Should viewbotting in the past disallow him from being featured today.
The answer to (1) is no, or not in any meaningful way. Any authoritative body that has looked into the situation has concluded that this is not continuing at present. Due to the nature of the evidence it's difficult for us to prove to the community that this is the case and so you do have to trust us (and Blizzard, and Twitch) that this is indeed the case. If there is someone in the community who carries respect who wants to validate the evidence then we can look into doing that if the community wishes (I mean I like to think that TL has played this role already but if you don't trust us...).
The answer to (2) in our eyes is that by defeaturing him for 6 months is our way of punishing him for any past actions and hence those past actions shouldn't be held against him today if he has truly reformed (which again, seems to be the case.)
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:24 Dickbutt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 20:20 todespolka wrote:On October 02 2015 19:50 HaRuHi wrote:
If there is anyone on TL that actually watches Winter, what is it that makes his Stream more popular than the streams of TLO, Morrow, Incontrol, all those charismatic fellows? The pro players you are listing here dont talk when they play. That makes them very boring to watch. Also I havent seen a stream of a pro player which was as informative as winters stream. He gives very clear instructions and explains what people have to scout and when to decide this and that. You should lay down your bias and watch his stream for once. Why did people watch idra? He has left multiple tournaments without a reason. He had nothing achieved in the last two years of his carrier. To be honest he managed to win one or two major/premier at the start of wol and thats it. Was there anything else? Non the less he had allways the most viewers (4000-8000). How do you explain that? How was it possible that 1000 times better player had only a few hundreds when he had 6000 viewers? People arent interested in pro players when they watch streams. They want entertainment first! Every other point is only secondary. EDIT: Most of the community laughs at Winter's knowledge, as he pretends to know all this stuff about StarCraft but most of the time he's wrong. Back in late 2014 when people were hating on him for drone rushing people in Bronze league I turned on the stream and he was lecturing about how you can put 16 mules on a single base, which is wrong. Most pro players that regularly stream aside from ForGG and MC (he speaks Korean mostly) are much more vibrant than Winter. Last time I turned on Winter's stream he was beating on a Silver player in LotV massing changelings with a blank face and totally silent till the game lagged to unplayable levels. Morrow, Naniwa, Incontrol, Demuslim, the list goes on and on. There are even smaller streamers like Morn that only pull 20 viewers or so on a super busy day that still have better commentary than Winter.
This is all either conjecture or poorly grounded opinions. You don't like Winter and do not want him featured on TL. I understand that. What you are currently doing is attempt people not to watch his stream because you dislike the streamer, and conjuring reasons as to why Winter's stream is bad. In featuring someone, we don't concern ourselves with why people watch. We have been provided satisfactory data to justify re-featuring Winter, and I, frankly, think it is ridiculous that you would think we are lying about the matter just so that we can have Winter featured. Wherein lies the gain in that?
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On October 02 2015 20:39 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 20:24 Dickbutt wrote:On October 02 2015 20:20 todespolka wrote:On October 02 2015 19:50 HaRuHi wrote:
If there is anyone on TL that actually watches Winter, what is it that makes his Stream more popular than the streams of TLO, Morrow, Incontrol, all those charismatic fellows? The pro players you are listing here dont talk when they play. That makes them very boring to watch. Also I havent seen a stream of a pro player which was as informative as winters stream. He gives very clear instructions and explains what people have to scout and when to decide this and that. You should lay down your bias and watch his stream for once. Why did people watch idra? He has left multiple tournaments without a reason. He had nothing achieved in the last two years of his carrier. To be honest he managed to win one or two major/premier at the start of wol and thats it. Was there anything else? Non the less he had allways the most viewers (4000-8000). How do you explain that? How was it possible that 1000 times better player had only a few hundreds when he had 6000 viewers? People arent interested in pro players when they watch streams. They want entertainment first! Every other point is only secondary. EDIT: Most of the community laughs at Winter's knowledge, as he pretends to know all this stuff about StarCraft but most of the time he's wrong. Back in late 2014 when people were hating on him for drone rushing people in Bronze league I turned on the stream and he was lecturing about how you can put 16 mules on a single base, which is wrong. Most pro players that regularly stream aside from ForGG and MC (he speaks Korean mostly) are much more vibrant than Winter. Last time I turned on Winter's stream he was beating on a Silver player in LotV massing changelings with a blank face and totally silent till the game lagged to unplayable levels. Morrow, Naniwa, Incontrol, Demuslim, the list goes on and on. There are even smaller streamers like Morn that only pull 20 viewers or so on a super busy day that still have better commentary than Winter. This is all either conjecture or poorly grounded opinions. You don't like Winter and do not want him featured on TL. I understand that. What you are currently doing is attempt people not to watch his stream because you dislike the streamer, and conjuring reasons as to why Winter's stream is bad. In featuring someone, we don't concern ourselves with why people watch. We have been provided satisfactory data to justify re-featuring Winter, and I, frankly, think it is ridiculous that you would think we are lying about the matter just so that we can have Winter featured. Wherein lies the gain in that?
Lol? When did I ever say my opinion on his gameplay had anything to do with Team Liquid featuring him again. We, as the public gaming community, have absolutely nothing that justifies the return of his name on the Team Liquid side bar other than a post that says he's most likely not botting.
We have no numbers, we have no data, we have nothing, and to be completely honest I believe that with guaranteed proof he has botted himself to where he is now is enough to keep him off the list. This, again, is not the goal of my post. The goal of my post is to at least get some information about this because it's close to an outrage to bring his name back to the top of the stream list for everybody to see without any explanation as to why.
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On October 02 2015 20:20 todespolka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 19:50 HaRuHi wrote:
If there is anyone on TL that actually watches Winter, what is it that makes his Stream more popular than the streams of TLO, Morrow, Incontrol, all those charismatic fellows? The pro players you are listing here dont talk when they play. That makes them very boring to watch. Also I havent seen a stream of a pro player which was as informative as winters stream. He gives very clear instructions and explains what people have to scout and when to decide this and that. You should lay down your bias and watch his stream for once. Why did people watch idra? He has left multiple tournaments without a reason. He had nothing achieved in the last two years of his carrier. To be honest he managed to win one or two major/premier at the start of wol and thats it. Was there anything else? Non the less he had allways the most viewers (4000-8000). How do you explain that? How was it possible that 1000 times better player had only a few hundreds when he had 6000 viewers? People arent interested in pro players when they watch streams. They want entertainment first! Every other point is only secondary.
Well TLO does not talk much, but Morrow constantly interacts with viewers, Incontrol is very outgoing aswell and they provide Pro-Level knowledge.
Idra actually was around before Sc2, he was the one of the best foreigners in BW(so his following transitioned to this new game with him) and he still was one of the best players during WoL, with a terrible mindset during that period.
It's true that people watch for entertainment, but why do you say Winter explains the game well and then go on a rant how it does not matter how bad people are, if the first point you bring up is that he is a good teacher?
I don't think there is anything I can learn from him, I haven't tuned into his stream since over a year, last time he was just smurfing silver league and bashing noobies, I don't find that fun, nor fun to watch.
I totally gonna tune in this week, maybe I see some of the things you mentioned. Thanks for your point of view on this topic.
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Don't want to witchhunt, but it's a bit dumb in my opinion to feature him because he also "has a legitimate viewership''. If I'd stream myself with 5000 viewbots or w/e the kid uses, it's only logical that I would also lure legitimate viewers to my stream.
I mean, the next stream can't even get 1000 viewers, someone that doesn't know the SC2 scene will surely tune into that guy that has by far the biggest stream. If you'd actually watch Winter it seems super fishy that he has so many viewers compared to the actual good streamers out there.
People use the argument "Winter is good at educating new players.'' Look at Lowko who can't even get 500 viewers while he streams during prime hours where people will actually be awake and have their leisure time. It all just seems too fishy.
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The answer to (1) is no, or not in any meaningful way
So almost all of his viewers are legit? Or how many did you check through?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 02 2015 21:32 Hider wrote:So almost all of his viewers are legit? Or how many did you check through?
We used external data to estimate his average viewer count, the numbers came out very close to what he actually gets.
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On October 02 2015 21:34 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 21:32 Hider wrote:The answer to (1) is no, or not in any meaningful way So almost all of his viewers are legit? Or how many did you check through? We used external data to estimate his average viewer count, the numbers came out very close to what he actually gets.
You know how people are sick of Blizzard saying "internal testing shows fuck you" and people suspect nothing actually goes on? That's what is happening here, kind of. Nothing but word of mouth and it could be some tin foil hat conspiracy for all we know, but TL can't even prove that wrong because it would be, again, just word of mouth.
Ninja edit: This will blow over eventually whether you do nothing or do everything about it, but it's gonna be a shit storm the first few months he's up there and if you guys don't want to listen to the community about it prepare to ban lots of angry people and watch Reddit do what they do best.
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On October 02 2015 21:34 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 21:32 Hider wrote:The answer to (1) is no, or not in any meaningful way So almost all of his viewers are legit? Or how many did you check through? We used external data to estimate his average viewer count, the numbers came out very close to what he actually gets.
Why can't you say what type of data it is then? I mean I understand you cant make the actual data public, but why can't you explain what type it is?
Because when I think of external data, I think of chat activtity, social media numbers where he is a huge outlier.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 02 2015 20:51 Dickbutt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 20:39 Zealously wrote:On October 02 2015 20:24 Dickbutt wrote:On October 02 2015 20:20 todespolka wrote:On October 02 2015 19:50 HaRuHi wrote:
If there is anyone on TL that actually watches Winter, what is it that makes his Stream more popular than the streams of TLO, Morrow, Incontrol, all those charismatic fellows? The pro players you are listing here dont talk when they play. That makes them very boring to watch. Also I havent seen a stream of a pro player which was as informative as winters stream. He gives very clear instructions and explains what people have to scout and when to decide this and that. You should lay down your bias and watch his stream for once. Why did people watch idra? He has left multiple tournaments without a reason. He had nothing achieved in the last two years of his carrier. To be honest he managed to win one or two major/premier at the start of wol and thats it. Was there anything else? Non the less he had allways the most viewers (4000-8000). How do you explain that? How was it possible that 1000 times better player had only a few hundreds when he had 6000 viewers? People arent interested in pro players when they watch streams. They want entertainment first! Every other point is only secondary. EDIT: Most of the community laughs at Winter's knowledge, as he pretends to know all this stuff about StarCraft but most of the time he's wrong. Back in late 2014 when people were hating on him for drone rushing people in Bronze league I turned on the stream and he was lecturing about how you can put 16 mules on a single base, which is wrong. Most pro players that regularly stream aside from ForGG and MC (he speaks Korean mostly) are much more vibrant than Winter. Last time I turned on Winter's stream he was beating on a Silver player in LotV massing changelings with a blank face and totally silent till the game lagged to unplayable levels. Morrow, Naniwa, Incontrol, Demuslim, the list goes on and on. There are even smaller streamers like Morn that only pull 20 viewers or so on a super busy day that still have better commentary than Winter. This is all either conjecture or poorly grounded opinions. You don't like Winter and do not want him featured on TL. I understand that. What you are currently doing is attempt people not to watch his stream because you dislike the streamer, and conjuring reasons as to why Winter's stream is bad. In featuring someone, we don't concern ourselves with why people watch. We have been provided satisfactory data to justify re-featuring Winter, and I, frankly, think it is ridiculous that you would think we are lying about the matter just so that we can have Winter featured. Wherein lies the gain in that? Lol? When did I ever say my opinion on his gameplay had anything to do with Team Liquid featuring him again. We, as the public gaming community, have absolutely nothing that justifies the return of his name on the Team Liquid side bar other than a post that says he's most likely not botting. We have no numbers, we have no data, we have nothing, and to be completely honest I believe that with guaranteed proof he has botted himself to where he is now is enough to keep him off the list. This, again, is not the goal of my post. The goal of my post is to at least get some information about this because it's close to an outrage to bring his name back to the top of the stream list for everybody to see without any explanation as to why.
You're trying to argue against positive opinions of Winter's stream, rather than. I quote:
EDIT: Most of the community laughs at Winter's knowledge, as he pretends to know all this stuff about StarCraft but most of the time he's wrong.
As shown in this thread and elsewhere, Winter does have an audience that appreciates his commentary. If you want to argue against the things he says on stream, by all means. It is not relevant to whether or not he is featured.
Most pro players that regularly stream aside from ForGG and MC (he speaks Korean mostly) are much more vibrant than Winter.
This, just as above, is a fairly subjective statement to make. I'm sure there are people in both camps. But with our policy for featuring/not featuring streamers, is it relevant?
Last time I turned on Winter's stream he was beating on a Silver player in LotV massing changelings with a blank face and totally silent till the game lagged to unplayable levels. Morrow, Naniwa, Incontrol, Demuslim, the list goes on and on. There are even smaller streamers like Morn that only pull 20 viewers or so on a super busy day that still have better commentary than Winter.
All of the above certainly make it seem as though you're attempting to argue that the people who enjoy Winter's stream or find the content educational shouldn't, because you think it isn't. It's entirely fine to hold a low opinion of Winter's stream and educational merit - I can certainly understand that - but you're bouncing between trying to persuade us into releasing data shared with us in confidence (and you are, again, free not to believe our word) to satisfy your personal suspicions.
Is it your opinion that every TL staff member involved in this decision is personally defending Winter, in order to keep his featured status, for one reason or another? I might entirely be misunderstanding what it is you're implying, but this is certainly a case of you having to take our word for it. If you could present some credible reasons for us to lie (your Blizzard analogy seems to lean in that direction) about the situation, that might provide you with better grounds for an argument. Presently, you seem to be doing precisely what you originally claimed you did not want to do.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On October 02 2015 21:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 21:34 Plexa wrote:On October 02 2015 21:32 Hider wrote:The answer to (1) is no, or not in any meaningful way So almost all of his viewers are legit? Or how many did you check through? We used external data to estimate his average viewer count, the numbers came out very close to what he actually gets. Why can't you say what type of data it is then? I mean I understand you cant make the actual data public, but why can't you explain what type it is? Because when I think of external data, I think of chat activtity, social media numbers where he is a huge outlier.
More substantial than chat activity or social media numbers. Actual numbers, not counted/observed/inferred. Again if the relevant parties want to divulge the specifics they are more than welcome to, but that isn't TL's choice.
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On October 02 2015 21:43 Dickbutt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 21:34 Plexa wrote:On October 02 2015 21:32 Hider wrote:The answer to (1) is no, or not in any meaningful way So almost all of his viewers are legit? Or how many did you check through? We used external data to estimate his average viewer count, the numbers came out very close to what he actually gets. You know how people are sick of Blizzard saying "internal testing shows fuck you" and people suspect nothing actually goes on? That's what is happening here, kind of. Nothing but word of mouth and it could be some tin foil hat conspiracy for all we know, but TL can't even prove that wrong because it would be, again, just word of mouth. Ninja edit: This will blow over eventually whether you do nothing or do everything about it, but it's gonna be a shit storm the first few months he's up there and if you guys don't want to listen to the community about it prepare to ban lots of angry people and watch Reddit do what they do best.
I bet in a few days most people will forget about it and move on with their lives. There won't be a shitstorm, just a few angry people like you who need someone to flame. I'd bet that most of these reddit threads in the next few months you talk about will come from you.
TL doesn't owe you anything, so don't act entitled. They obviously looked deeply into it and made their decision carefully. Don't like it? Feel free to leave TL. Your posting history is pretty garbage anyways.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 02 2015 21:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 21:34 Plexa wrote:On October 02 2015 21:32 Hider wrote:The answer to (1) is no, or not in any meaningful way So almost all of his viewers are legit? Or how many did you check through? We used external data to estimate his average viewer count, the numbers came out very close to what he actually gets. Why can't you say what type of data it is then? I mean I understand you cant make the actual data public, but why can't you explain what type it is? Because when I think of external data, I think of chat activtity, social media numbers where he is a huge outlier.
Stream analytics and merchandise among other things. We can't divulge more information than that, sorry.
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My god who cares bro. If he gets caught again I'm sure he will be rebanned, probably forever. For now he gets a second chance. You don't like his stream, I don't either, who cares, let's not watch it.
An "outrage" lol
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I recently watched winter's stream again and he had like 3,5k viewers with noone writing anything in chat etc, i still believe he viewbots and should not be featured on tl.
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If Winter is "good for the community" it's little wonder people think the community is dead, if his viewers are legit I'm actually Flash in disguise
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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EPT
