Benefits of removing macro mechanics for Z , T , P - Page 2

That can solve protoss production by reducing build times by 5s.

BW didnt have all this and it was more fun and better overall.

On August 17 2015 20:44 KelsierSC wrote:
"A lot of balance things will happen "

That is my point, they haven't thought the change through. They just did this because apparently some people found the game hard? That is a pathetic reason, it is supposed to be a difficult game that is why Korean pros have 300 apm.

If they said we want to make zerg feel more swarm by giving them some stronger units of low supply but not be able to re max. But no they are changing inject first for reasons and then balancing the game around it.

My personal opinion is starcraft is supposed to be a difficult game with a focus on macro, it isnot supposed to be wc3 or a moba. It feels like a big fuck you to loyal players by making the game more appealing to casuals and removing the things that we worked hard on.

On August 17 2015 21:43 Cazimirbzh wrote:
@-Archangel-

In what way that will help against scans??
And if queen produce 2 larva per inject you can skip a cycle for ez def creep.

On August 17 2015 21:43 Cazimirbzh wrote:
@-Archangel-

In what way that will help against scans??
And if queen produce 2 larva per inject you can skip a cycle for ez def creep.

@ZergLingShepherd1

Blizzard tried with adding specifics mechanics for each race. Didnt work (a bit sad). How long do you think it will take blizzard to complete regain sanity ? ( comsat requirement, no more creep and inject)

On August 17 2015 22:06 -Archangel- wrote:

or they know that a huge number of changes will be needed and many of those will only come up once the macro changes are implemented. No need to make huge lists now with beta still going on for 4-5 months.

On August 17 2015 22:59 Cazimirbzh wrote:
@-Archangel-
My point is that after the barrack, terran has a scan for only mineral cost (no requirement). or still in late game when the terran will have a unlimited amount of scans. Or even we can see where scans go in TvZ and PvZ.
If there is no limit to scan what's the point of invisible units ?
Creep in early game is very good for defense purpose. To be able to sacrifice only 2 larva for that kind of advantage is too much.
I am more concern about late game where we will still have the mass scan vs mass creep vs mass home.

On August 17 2015 22:59 Cazimirbzh wrote:
@-Archangel-
My point is that after the barrack, terran has a scan for only mineral cost (no requirement). or still in late game when the terran will have a unlimited amount of scans. Or even we can see where scans go in TvZ and PvZ.
If there is no limit to scan what's the point of invisible units ?
Creep in early game is very good for defense purpose. To be able to sacrifice only 2 larva for that kind of advantage is too much.
I am more concern about late game where we will still have the mass scan vs mass creep vs mass home.

On August 17 2015 22:21 KelsierSC wrote:


Well apparently they are doing this to make the game easier so they have no idea how to balance the game afterwards. If they had a vision of how they wanted the game to look they would have released a statement about it and this change would have Benn released at the start of beta. This is nothing more than a band aid solution to appease players who cant handle a difficult game.

On August 17 2015 20:44 KelsierSC wrote:
"A lot of balance things will happen "

That is my point, they haven't thought the change through. They just did this because apparently some people found the game hard? That is a pathetic reason, it is supposed to be a difficult game that is why Korean pros have 300 apm.

If they said we want to make zerg feel more swarm by giving them some stronger units of low supply but not be able to re max. But no they are changing inject first for reasons and then balancing the game around it.

My personal opinion is starcraft is supposed to be a difficult game with a focus on macro, it isnot supposed to be wc3 or a moba. It feels like a big fuck you to loyal players by making the game more appealing to casuals and removing the things that we worked hard on.

On August 17 2015 23:18 Cazimirbzh wrote:
@ZergLingShepherd1
It will.
Big maps + late game (no more need for supply drop, macro hatch) free map control ....
and that's why i dont understand this halfjob policy.

On August 17 2015 23:18 Cazimirbzh wrote:
@ZergLingShepherd1
It will.
Big maps + late game (no more need for supply drop, macro hatch) free map control ....
and that's why i dont understand this halfjob policy.

-Archangel-
scan or nuclear silo academy + gas requirement.
Dt in mid game to force scan so no mule = -250 minerals. Late game, vs PF, no limit to scan how can you try to take it ? :S But i agree that now "Each SCV kill will mean more."
PvZ We'll see about warp buff but chronoboost helped a lot to push before creep was ready

On August 17 2015 18:45 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I would like to remind people that there are some huge benefits design wise and balance wise for all races. This might change the minds of many people who still dont know if macro mechanics removal is good.



Protoss

Every upgarade, every timing has been nerfed for the sole reason of chrono boost, they had to balance everything in case protoss used chrono boost to prepare some powerful timings.

This didnt help the game at all, tho you could choose what upgrade you want to chrono boost and think you had some "chooice" , you where then very limited if you wanted to transition into another composition with some decent upgrades.

Not to mention most Chrono Boosts would go to workers.

Removing Chrono Boost would give more way for Protoss to transition, get more specific upgrades.
Basically more freedom of chooice.

Zerg

Inject Larva with 4 larvas is the worst thing that ever happened to the true nature of Zerg, the true swarm. Basically every unit was heavily nerfed in WoL Beta just because zerg had potential of huge remax that where totally IMBA

This lead to Zerg doing timings in most games, also having to remax over and over again to win a battle, but the big problem is that there is no REWARD for expanding alot in WoL and HotS, people would just stay on 3-4 bases and so the Zerg remax was not that beneficial in the most cases, not to mention alot of supply was in drones and queens, making the Zerg army look small.... with some units having alot of supply just to tone down the possiblity of insane remax.

This also lead to another terrible design to help Zerg... the "free units" concept that alot of people hate.

With larva inject being nerfed to 2, Zerg could get a 1 supply unit finally, we might get to be swarmy and maybe supply for other units could go down as well, Zerg units might get some buffs, to do remax being heavily nerfed in ealry and mid game.

Auto-Inject leads to less punishing macro, injects being to punishable, tho i would prefer a change to hatchery that could spawn larva at a higher rate, and a change for Queens to nurture like they do in Stabow and Spread Creep.

Terran

MULE was mostly put in the game to play catch up with the Zerg production, but over time it has turned into a very gimmick and sometime OP mechanic, mostly in late game when you dont even need SCV's and you kill them for a bigger army then your enemy. We also saw some very strong comebacks that could never be possible for a Protoss or a Zerg

Killing SCV's also sometime feels that is not rewarding for both Protoss and Zerg and even other Terrans.

The benefits to removing the MULE is that some Terran units might get cheaper, you will have more SCANS, and that means more map awarness, you could still get supply drops that are basically 120 free minerals.

I guess you might say Terran gets a little less rewards then Z and P but in truth Terran was way to forgiving from the start in my opinion.

On August 18 2015 00:18 TimeSpiral wrote:
I went back to read this post because several people were saying what a good and objective OP it was. I was really hoping it would be!



PROTOSS
It's a hard argument to make that not being able to intermittently dedicate double-speed production on anything you want is going to enhance freedom of choice. I think Protoss is getting hit really hard with this. Their play will become significantly more predictable. However, their timings will probably end up getting buffed, and will probably split the different between chrono and now. Overall, I think this will probably be a loss for Protoss.

ZERG
Why do you keep saying that Zerg doesn't have a 1-supply unit? Seriously: what are you talking about? The Zergling, bro. The Baneling, bro. Those are two staple, and incredibly good units. You have two 1-supply units--technically, they are half supply, which is even better. It's literally a BOGO unit. I'd be completely fine with a small buff to the ling/bane if you want them to become 1 supply each : )

And you get free units, dude. Zero supply, lol! Locusts, broodlings, but more notably, the Overseer. A tanky, supply-free flying spellcaster / detector with energy-scouting spells.

The only 1-supply units in the game--other than workers--are Marines and Zealots. Your half-supply units can completely wreck these units, unless they have substantial upgrade leads and high-tech support units in play.

Inject larva doesn't change the way larva works. You could always just build more hatches. It is the nature of larva itself that required the balance tweakings of the Zerg units. Even if inject was completely removed (like it probably should be), you'd still have access to insane tech switches and remaxes.

The Zerg nerf is going to end up being a buff. Just wait and see.

TERRAN
They are going to remove the MULE. Nothing will get cheaper, lol. Maybe we get some new unit abilities, or maybe call-down supply will enhance the HP of the depot, or something. It will feel like a gigantic nerf at first, until everyone has to find a way to deal with PF's at every natural, and cloaked openers become much weaker.

Terran will end up having the same amount, or less scans in the long run, because there will be less OC's built.

Hopefully they give detection to another unit, like the Reaper (hint, hint), to compensate for the diminished number of scans Terrans will have in the early and mid-game.