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I would like to remind people that there are some huge benefits design wise and balance wise for all races. This might change the minds of many people who still dont know if macro mechanics removal is good.
Protoss
Every upgarade, every timing has been nerfed for the sole reason of chrono boost, they had to balance everything in case protoss used chrono boost to prepare some powerful timings.
This didnt help the game at all, tho you could choose what upgrade you want to chrono boost and think you had some "chooice" , you where then very limited if you wanted to transition into another composition with some decent upgrades.
Not to mention most Chrono Boosts would go to workers.
Removing Chrono Boost would give more way for Protoss to transition, get more specific upgrades.
Basically more freedom of chooice.
Zerg
Inject Larva with 4 larvas is the worst thing that ever happened to the true nature of Zerg, the true swarm. Basically every unit was heavily nerfed in WoL Beta just because zerg had potential of huge remax that where totally IMBA
This lead to Zerg doing timings in most games, also having to remax over and over again to win a battle, but the big problem is that there is no REWARD for expanding alot in WoL and HotS, people would just stay on 3-4 bases and so the Zerg remax was not that beneficial in the most cases, not to mention alot of supply was in drones and queens, making the Zerg army look small.... with some units having alot of supply just to tone down the possiblity of insane remax.
This also lead to another terrible design to help Zerg... the "free units" concept that alot of people hate.
With larva inject being nerfed to 2, Zerg could get a 1 supply unit finally, we might get to be swarmy and maybe supply for other units could go down as well, Zerg units might get some buffs, to do remax being heavily nerfed in ealry and mid game.
Auto-Inject leads to less punishing macro, injects being to punishable, tho i would prefer a change to hatchery that could spawn larva at a higher rate, and a change for Queens to nurture like they do in Stabow and Spread Creep.
Terran
MULE was mostly put in the game to play catch up with the Zerg production, but over time it has turned into a very gimmick and sometime OP mechanic, mostly in late game when you dont even need SCV's and you kill them for a bigger army then your enemy. We also saw some very strong comebacks that could never be possible for a Protoss or a Zerg
Killing SCV's also sometime feels that is not rewarding for both Protoss and Zerg and even other Terrans.
The benefits to removing the MULE is that some Terran units might get cheaper, you will have more SCANS, and that means more map awarness, you could still get supply drops that are basically 120 free minerals.
I guess you might say Terran gets a little less rewards then Z and P but in truth Terran was way to forgiving from the start in my opinion.
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Do you guys think it will be a good idea to make inject a channel spell that decreases the time it takes for 1 larva to spawn and increasing the limit of larva to maybe 10?
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On August 17 2015 19:01 DragonFrend wrote:
Do you guys think it will be a good idea to make inject a channel spell that decreases the time it takes for 1 larva to spawn and increasing the limit of larva to maybe 10?
I think the best idea at the moment is to wait and see what happens with the next patch.
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Nice post. Agree with it 100%.
As long as blizzard buffs stuff accordingly this changes will only improve the game.
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On August 17 2015 19:01 DragonFrend wrote:
Do you guys think it will be a good idea to make inject a channel spell that decreases the time it takes for 1 larva to spawn and increasing the limit of larva to maybe 10?
It would counter what blizz does... removing them.
Tho yeah auto-inject is not the best solution, faster larva spawn at hatches, more larvas etc.
The queen could be a support unit and you could still spread creep, they would need to give another ability to remplace Inject larva i guess.
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On August 17 2015 19:01 DragonFrend wrote:
Do you guys think it will be a good idea to make inject a channel spell that decreases the time it takes for 1 larva to spawn and increasing the limit of larva to maybe 10?
That actually doesnt sound so bad.
As long as a queen is close to a hatchery the hatchery would spawn larva faster. This way you would still get one queen per hatchery but you can get additional queens for transfure and creep tumors.
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On August 17 2015 19:01 DragonFrend wrote:
Do you guys think it will be a good idea to make inject a channel spell that decreases the time it takes for 1 larva to spawn and increasing the limit of larva to maybe 10?
I think it wouldn't make much of a difference from the current implementation assuming numbers were tweaked to match each others larvae output.
although making larvae naturally spawn up to a limit of 10 (with a queen attending it)
is not the same as
queen-generated larvae stack up to 19
because in the first example the larvae from the hatchery itself will continue to spawn even past the initial 3, while in the second they would not, therefore it would be easier to collect larvae for remaxing in the first compared to the second, although the second has a higher max limit.
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bla bla bla macromechanics no good for balance bla bla bla
Thank you for this opinion which has been exposed in many topics since the strat of sc2.
bwt, chrono works also on buildings like robo and stargate it's really good to chrono oracle, for example, when u want to harass.
Queen has no changes (nerf inject only) so free creep, Same for terran (no more mule but still scan and supply) and protoss well....piouf...
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
It's weird because I never saw anyone complaining in huge numbers about inject or chrono boost before. Yet for some resson blizzard has decided to totally change them because. .. Yeh you have given some points but it isn't like blizzard voices these opinions or promised any other changes . have they given zerg a one supply unit or buffed other units? Or give an alternate mechanic.? No
If this change was so thought out with good ideas why wait this long and implement it so haphazardly. It just feels like a change they made because they can, not because it has any real benefits. This massive overhaul will need huge amounts of testing and there should be a clear design purpose in mind which I fail to see.
This comes down to "some pepole said inject is boring so let's change that , oh and that means chrono I'd boring so let's change that. Then see what happens "
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On August 17 2015 20:24 KelsierSC wrote:
It's weird because I never saw anyone complaining in huge numbers about inject or chrono boost before. Yet for some resson blizzard has decided to totally change them because. .. Yeh you have given some points but it isn't like blizzard voices these opinions or promised any other changes . have they given zerg a one supply unit or buffed other units? Or give an alternate mechanic.? No
If this change was so thought out with good ideas why wait this long and implement it so haphazardly. It just feels like a change they made because they can, not because it has any real benefits. This massive overhaul will need huge amounts of testing and there should be a clear design purpose in mind which I fail to see.
This comes down to "some pepole said inject is boring so let's change that , oh and that means chrono I'd boring so let's change that. Then see what happens "
People that where at Califoria summit have confirmed that Korean community had a very hot topic of LotV being way to hard.
So they want to make easier on macro side to balance it out with the excesive changes to micro side.
So they balance that ratio... by giving the player more focus on micro.
And like David kim said if this changes stick alot of balange things will happen... it wont be small changes.
And one thing was already said in the post... reducing the time on some portoss upgrades.
So they know what mainly they have to balance when they cut macro mechanics.
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On August 17 2015 20:36 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2015 20:24 KelsierSC wrote:
It's weird because I never saw anyone complaining in huge numbers about inject or chrono boost before. Yet for some resson blizzard has decided to totally change them because. .. Yeh you have given some points but it isn't like blizzard voices these opinions or promised any other changes . have they given zerg a one supply unit or buffed other units? Or give an alternate mechanic.? No
If this change was so thought out with good ideas why wait this long and implement it so haphazardly. It just feels like a change they made because they can, not because it has any real benefits. This massive overhaul will need huge amounts of testing and there should be a clear design purpose in mind which I fail to see.
This comes down to "some pepole said inject is boring so let's change that , oh and that means chrono I'd boring so let's change that. Then see what happens "
People that where at Califoria summit have confirmed that Korean community had a very hot topic of LotV being way to hard. So they want to make easier on macro side to balance it out with the excesive changes to micro side. So they balance that ratio... by giving the player more focus on micro. And like David kim said if this changes stick alot of balange things will happen... it wont be small changes. And one thing was already said in the post... reducing the time on some portoss upgrades. So they know what mainly they have to balance when they cut macro mechanics.
You literally were just in snute's chat,asked him his thoughts, and he literally said the opposite about macro mechanics. :/ Why do you even ask for progamers opinions if you just ignore them? I mean seriously what is wrong with you?
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On August 17 2015 20:13 Cazimirbzh wrote:
bla bla bla macromechanics no good for balance bla bla bla
Thank you for this opinion which has been exposed in many topics since the strat of sc2.
bwt, chrono works also on buildings like robo and stargate it's really good to chrono oracle, for example, when u want to harass.
Queen has no changes (nerf inject only) so free creep, Same for terran (no more mule but still scan and supply) and protoss well....piouf...
That can solve protoss production by reducing build times by 5s.
And queens will not be giving free creep since they will still be using their energy for now automated inject. And since it will be automated that one queen will never have extra energy.
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While for a lot of people this might seem sudden it's actually not. This forced macro mechanics weren't part of broodwar and were created to fill a role that no longer existed due to a better engine (not having to select all your building productions to make stuff).
Having said that u need not look any further than the HotS campaign which already has the Inject removed. They probably already felt it was not a mechanic worth keeping at the time and just left it in the game cause of the status quo.
The mule only makes part of the campaign as an after thought which u might not get if your distracted since it comes fairly late.
This macro mechanics were created to fill the role of going constantly bk to base present in Broodwar, instead they created many problems not only in terms of balance but also in terms of design which even tho they probably will never admit it are very real.
Just 2 examples of design problems.
With chrono in the game all protoss timings have to be made around the fact u rush to them with chrono so basically all the upgrades and unit creation has to be inherently slower. Essentially u're either using chrono boost or your slower than u should be. It's not a advantage as much as it is a system to not fall behind.
The inject is exactly the same, all the supply costs of the zerg have to be made around the fact that inject exists, unfortunately unlike the chrono if left unchecked the inject would make the race unbeatable in the early game since Zerg would essentially start with a massive advantage in production from the get go so guess what the roach got pushed to 2 supply so that ur forced to spend a lot of your minerals in the early game in overlords and be unable to overrun the opponent which then created a problem on the max army size making the roach a bad unit at max supply.
Essentially all this mechanics created a lot more problems then the advantages they brought imo and I'm glad their trying to remove them. Even if it doesn't stay I'm very happy with them for trying.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
"A lot of balance things will happen "
That is my point, they haven't thought the change through. They just did this because apparently some people found the game hard? That is a pathetic reason, it is supposed to be a difficult game that is why Korean pros have 300 apm.
If they said we want to make zerg feel more swarm by giving them some stronger units of low supply but not be able to re max. But no they are changing inject first for reasons and then balancing the game around it.
My personal opinion is starcraft is supposed to be a difficult game with a focus on macro, it isnot supposed to be wc3 or a moba. It feels like a big fuck you to loyal players by making the game more appealing to casuals and removing the things that we worked hard on.
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On August 17 2015 20:44 KelsierSC wrote:
"A lot of balance things will happen "
That is my point, they haven't thought the change through. They just did this because apparently some people found the game hard? That is a pathetic reason, it is supposed to be a difficult game that is why Korean pros have 300 apm.
If they said we want to make zerg feel more swarm by giving them some stronger units of low supply but not be able to re max. But no they are changing inject first for reasons and then balancing the game around it.
My personal opinion is starcraft is supposed to be a difficult game with a focus on macro, it isnot supposed to be wc3 or a moba. It feels like a big fuck you to loyal players by making the game more appealing to casuals and removing the things that we worked hard on.
BW didnt have all this and it was more fun and better overall.
This might be your opinion.... tho i suspect you're more angry that you had to sink in alot of time to get "perfect" injects or close to perfect.
But SC2 is not minecraft... and their not doing this change for the sake of change, if the community in korea who is hardcore tells you the game is to hard you kind have to balance somehow the game for all players.
Right now LotV is so focused on harass, micro and you can die to so many things if you dont pay 1 sec attention.... everyone loves how the game is faster but some things need to either be toned down a bit ( and they dont want that ) or they need to give players alot more freedom to focus on those things instead of macroing.
On August 17 2015 20:41 tokinho wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2015 20:36 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 17 2015 20:24 KelsierSC wrote:
It's weird because I never saw anyone complaining in huge numbers about inject or chrono boost before. Yet for some resson blizzard has decided to totally change them because. .. Yeh you have given some points but it isn't like blizzard voices these opinions or promised any other changes . have they given zerg a one supply unit or buffed other units? Or give an alternate mechanic.? No
If this change was so thought out with good ideas why wait this long and implement it so haphazardly. It just feels like a change they made because they can, not because it has any real benefits. This massive overhaul will need huge amounts of testing and there should be a clear design purpose in mind which I fail to see.
This comes down to "some pepole said inject is boring so let's change that , oh and that means chrono I'd boring so let's change that. Then see what happens "
People that where at Califoria summit have confirmed that Korean community had a very hot topic of LotV being way to hard. So they want to make easier on macro side to balance it out with the excesive changes to micro side. So they balance that ratio... by giving the player more focus on micro. And like David kim said if this changes stick alot of balange things will happen... it wont be small changes. And one thing was already said in the post... reducing the time on some portoss upgrades. So they know what mainly they have to balance when they cut macro mechanics. You literally were just in snute's chat,asked him his thoughts, and he literally said the opposite about macro mechanics. :/ Why do you even ask for progamers opinions if you just ignore them? I mean seriously what is wrong with you?
He said he has mix feelings, that his not sure. The fact that he likes chrono invalidates what i said ? how ?
I know he said he dosent like auto-inject cuz he likes the feeling of injects, but he also said that it would benefit him in pro screne.
Overall he doenst know yet.
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I've been saying this since the WOL beta.
The three mechanics (Larva inject, Mules, Chrono Boost) damaged the game. Everything was too fast, too extreme, too many units, just TOO MUCH EVERYTHING.
This and nothing else caused the MAX FIGHT -> REMAX FIGHT -> REMAX FIGHT cycle.
In LOTV they tried to fix it with way less ressources on the map. It's working fine, but as the OP stated, nerfing or removing these thre mechanics would have solved the issues in their core.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
I don't know why you keep making some shit analogy about minecraft.
In my opinion this change has not been thought through and the approach is wrong. They should not make a huge macro change and then balance around it with no goal in mind.
For me starcraft is a mechanical test with a focus on macro and players who can do that whilst controlling units, scouting etc are the best. Shifting the focus from macro to controlling my units meticulously moves away from the reasons I love starcraft and makes it similar to other games rather than something unique.
I'm sure some people love this change but to me it moves the game in the wrong direction for a bad reason and with little thought behind it whilst kicking the crotch of loyal players. If the change goes through I probably won't get lotv
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On August 17 2015 20:44 KelsierSC wrote:
"A lot of balance things will happen "
That is my point, they haven't thought the change through. They just did this because apparently some people found the game hard? That is a pathetic reason, it is supposed to be a difficult game that is why Korean pros have 300 apm.
If they said we want to make zerg feel more swarm by giving them some stronger units of low supply but not be able to re max. But no they are changing inject first for reasons and then balancing the game around it.
My personal opinion is starcraft is supposed to be a difficult game with a focus on macro, it isnot supposed to be wc3 or a moba. It feels like a big fuck you to loyal players by making the game more appealing to casuals and removing the things that we worked hard on.
I agree starcraft is a good mixture of macro and micro, these changes lessen multitasking.
But as snute just said. These items help to differentiate good and great players. The truth is just like you said in snute chat. "I just wanted to said to snute that scvs are too overpowered and they do a trash idea that never be in the game." Why don't you put your words in the post, Zerglingshepherd?? I know your english is aweful, but i'm tired of you insulting pros. You ask his opinion and he says that macro mechanics won't bring or remove players from the game and that they are good overall because they differentiate skill. After he disagrees with you, you make this post.
Say what you just said, you piece of trash, who is really complaining that mules are op. Go ahead and tell other pros that they're ideas are dumb too. You already are insulting beastyqt and snute. Who else do you want to be a dick to today? You were never a brood war player. You don't know anything about it. Don't even think of talking about brood war like you know about what makes a game better or worse.
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On August 17 2015 20:49 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2015 20:44 KelsierSC wrote:
"A lot of balance things will happen "
That is my point, they haven't thought the change through. They just did this because apparently some people found the game hard? That is a pathetic reason, it is supposed to be a difficult game that is why Korean pros have 300 apm.
If they said we want to make zerg feel more swarm by giving them some stronger units of low supply but not be able to re max. But no they are changing inject first for reasons and then balancing the game around it.
My personal opinion is starcraft is supposed to be a difficult game with a focus on macro, it isnot supposed to be wc3 or a moba. It feels like a big fuck you to loyal players by making the game more appealing to casuals and removing the things that we worked hard on. BW didnt have all this and it was more fun and better overall. This might be your opinion.... tho i suspect you're more angry that you had to sink in alot of time to get "perfect" injects or close to perfect. But SC2 is not minecraft... and their not doing this change for the sake of change, if the community in korea who is hardcore tells you the game is to hard you kind have to balance somehow the game for all players. Right now LotV is so focused on harass, micro and you can die to so many things if you dont pay 1 sec attention.... everyone loves how the game is faster but some things need to either be toned down a bit ( and they dont want that ) or they need to give players alot more freedom to focus on those things instead of macroing. Show nested quote +On August 17 2015 20:41 tokinho wrote:On August 17 2015 20:36 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 17 2015 20:24 KelsierSC wrote:
It's weird because I never saw anyone complaining in huge numbers about inject or chrono boost before. Yet for some resson blizzard has decided to totally change them because. .. Yeh you have given some points but it isn't like blizzard voices these opinions or promised any other changes . have they given zerg a one supply unit or buffed other units? Or give an alternate mechanic.? No
If this change was so thought out with good ideas why wait this long and implement it so haphazardly. It just feels like a change they made because they can, not because it has any real benefits. This massive overhaul will need huge amounts of testing and there should be a clear design purpose in mind which I fail to see.
This comes down to "some pepole said inject is boring so let's change that , oh and that means chrono I'd boring so let's change that. Then see what happens "
People that where at Califoria summit have confirmed that Korean community had a very hot topic of LotV being way to hard. So they want to make easier on macro side to balance it out with the excesive changes to micro side. So they balance that ratio... by giving the player more focus on micro. And like David kim said if this changes stick alot of balange things will happen... it wont be small changes. And one thing was already said in the post... reducing the time on some portoss upgrades. So they know what mainly they have to balance when they cut macro mechanics. You literally were just in snute's chat,asked him his thoughts, and he literally said the opposite about macro mechanics. :/ Why do you even ask for progamers opinions if you just ignore them? I mean seriously what is wrong with you? He said he has mix feelings, that his not sure. The fact that he likes chrono invalidates what i said ? how ? I know he said he dosent like auto-inject cuz he likes the feeling of injects, but he also said that it would benefit him in pro screne. Overall he doenst know yet.
He did not say he had mixed feelings. There were several hundred people there. He said that really its not going to change the player base so he's not sure if that purpose is helpful.
He likes the macro mechanics overall and wouldn't want to see them go. He also said that mules/scans, chronoboost, and the idea of having creep tumours vs injects all give more choices to the game. Zerg benefits less from the choices, so having autoinject means his multitasking would be more like a korean, which would benefit him since in general their multitasking is better. By removing these macro mechanics there are less choices and overall less variety in the game. You literally just ignored that he was against having these changes, while you kept typing in chat a bunch of crap about chrono and scv's being op.
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On August 17 2015 21:01 KelsierSC wrote:
I don't know why you keep making some shit analogy about minecraft.
In my opinion this change has not been thought through and the approach is wrong. They should not make a huge macro change and then balance around it with no goal in mind.
For me starcraft is a mechanical test with a focus on macro and players who can do that whilst controlling units, scouting etc are the best. Shifting the focus from macro to controlling my units meticulously moves away from the reasons I love starcraft and makes it similar to other games rather than something unique.
I'm sure some people love this change but to me it moves the game in the wrong direction for a bad reason and with little thought behind it whilst kicking the crotch of loyal players. If the change goes through I probably won't get lotv
Yeah the anology could be shitty.
I already told you their goal... to balance out the new improved "harder" micro with an easier macro.
I know alot of people like macro to so i can respect that, its what you like, i just dont feel like SC was ever that when i played.
But maybe that is the difference between a micro focused played and a micro focused player.
On August 17 2015 20:44 Bazik wrote:
While for a lot of people this might seem sudden it's actually not. This forced macro mechanics weren't part of broodwar and were created to fill a role that no longer existed due to a better engine (not having to select all your building productions to make stuff).
Having said that u need not look any further than the HotS campaign which already has the Inject removed. They probably already felt it was not a mechanic worth keeping at the time and just left it in the game cause of the status quo.
The mule only makes part of the campaign as an after thought which u might not get if your distracted since it comes fairly late.
This macro mechanics were created to fill the role of going constantly bk to base present in Broodwar, instead they created many problems not only in terms of balance but also in terms of design which even tho they probably will never admit it are very real.
Just 2 examples of design problems.
With chrono in the game all protoss timings have to be made around the fact u rush to them with chrono so basically all the upgrades and unit creation has to be inherently slower. Essentially u're either using chrono boost or your slower than u should be. It's not a advantage as much as it is a system to not fall behind.
The inject is exactly the same, all the supply costs of the zerg have to be made around the fact that inject exists, unfortunately unlike the chrono if left unchecked the inject would make the race unbeatable in the early game since Zerg would essentially start with a massive advantage in production from the get go so guess what the roach got pushed to 2 supply so that ur forced to spend a lot of your minerals in the early game in overlords and be unable to overrun the opponent which then created a problem on the max army size making the roach a bad unit at max supply.
Essentially all this mechanics created a lot more problems then the advantages they brought imo and I'm glad their trying to remove them. Even if it doesn't stay I'm very happy with them for trying.
I totally agree with this. I think everyone can relate to this also... this macro mechanics did more bad then good overall.
Ald let be hones it turned alot of people down and annoyed BW people even more.
On August 17 2015 20:57 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
I've been saying this since the WOL beta.
The three mechanics (Larva inject, Mules, Chrono Boost) damaged the game. Everything was too fast, too extreme, too many units, just TOO MUCH EVERYTHING.
This and nothing else caused the MAX FIGHT -> REMAX FIGHT -> REMAX FIGHT cycle.
In LOTV they tried to fix it with way less ressources on the map. It's working fine, but as the OP stated, nerfing or removing these thre mechanics would have solved the issues in their core.
Yeah overall we might not see so many deathballs, so many battles ending in 2-3 sec.
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