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can't seem to have zerglingshepard thread without balance whines- it started out so well too.
Anyway, from here, its cleaer that protoss and terran has most to lose from this while zerg has least- since the major skill gaps with zerg race is dealt with the macro aspects even more so than other races- The weekly all in article did mention this very well.
Protoss loses the chronoboost balanced timings/upgrades from the removal- The compromise may be hard to balance out-protoss followup to all ins will be weaker with lack of chrono boost as well.
Terran loses the early mineral deficit from upgrading to Orbital command/building with scvs. early-midgame terran will suffer- Morrow made point about this
Zerg loses 3 larvae per hatch cycle in exchange for autoinject-early game zerg will suffer- maybe time for some zerg buffs as zerglingshepard did bring out. Maybe restrict bank per hatch do prevent the same problem with lategame remax and get zerg to build more macro hatch?
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Mules influenced the meta alot. It was one of the worst things that could happen to sc2.
Terran on early 3OC basically meant that any early own economical commitment on harrassing the terran (eco) leads into auto lose if you didn't kill the terran with it with p or z. Therefore in ZvT/PvT matchups almost only all-in or defensive macro play was viable but nothing inbetween (yeah, oracles where introduced then to give protoss at least something).
This was one of the main reasons that SC2 became boring to me. I am glad it changes now.
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On August 18 2015 06:04 LSN wrote:
Mules influenced the meta alot. It was one of the worst things that could happen to sc2.
Terran on early 3OC basically meant that any early own economical commitment on harrassing the terran (eco) leads into auto lose if you didn't kill the terran with it with p or z. Therefore in ZvT/PvT matchups almost only all-in or defensive macro play was viable but nothing inbetween (yeah, oracles where introduced then to give protoss at least something).
This was one of the main reasons that SC2 became boring to me. I am glad it changes now.
An orbital command is 4 unkillable SCVs, that's it. Without MULEs terran would have some way to boost mining to be on par with the other two races if the other macro mechanics stayed.
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When is the new patch going online anyway?
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It's not bad to remove these things, but I think they should have done this sooner in the beta... It's going to take so much balance tweaking to get everything back in sync (especially with Protoss). Do they have time to do this before release?
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On August 17 2015 18:45 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
Protoss
Every upgarade, every timing has been nerfed for the sole reason of chrono boost, they had to balance everything in case protoss used chrono boost to prepare some powerful timings.
This didnt help the game at all, tho you could choose what upgrade you want to chrono boost and think you had some "chooice" , you where then very limited if you wanted to transition into another composition with some decent upgrades.
Not to mention most Chrono Boosts would go to workers.
Removing Chrono Boost would give more way for Protoss to transition, get more specific upgrades.
Basically more freedom of chooice.
Removing chronoboost does not give more choice. People will still do the same builds, just without chrono. This doesn't change the game, just its timings. You don't get more freedom of transition by removing chrono because you're not going to start researching +2 air weapons simply because chronoboost is removed. If anything, chronoboost has been protoss's tool for transitioning. The protoss player, on big maps like Alterzhim Stronghold, would attack into a zerg or terran to free up supply and allow for air transitions that were only possible because of chrono(see sOs vs jjajki). Chrono allowed you to sneak in these upgrades very quickly so that we could transition if we wanted to, not the other way around. Removing chronoboost just means they'll have to basically revert all of their nerfs to protoss timings to allow for protoss to hit at the same time as before. That doesn't give us more choice. It leaves us with the exact same choices as before with just less ability to mess up because I no longer have to worry about perfect chronoboosting to hit my +2 blink timing exactly at 11:30.
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On August 18 2015 06:04 LSN wrote:
Mules influenced the meta alot. It was one of the worst things that could happen to sc2.
Terran on early 3OC basically meant that any early own economical commitment on harrassing the terran (eco) leads into auto lose if you didn't kill the terran with it with p or z. Therefore in ZvT/PvT matchups almost only all-in or defensive macro play was viable but nothing inbetween (yeah, oracles where introduced then to give protoss at least something).
This was one of the main reasons that SC2 became boring to me. I am glad it changes now.
This was always a problem for Protoss and so we got the Oracle that everyone complains about.
I do agree wtih macro mechanics being removed, things might return to normal.
On August 18 2015 06:51 NKexquisite wrote:
It's not bad to remove these things, but I think they should have done this sooner in the beta... It's going to take so much balance tweaking to get everything back in sync (especially with Protoss). Do they have time to do this before release?
They might wait alot if this changes happen. I dont see a 2015 release if this changes stay.
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On August 18 2015 00:41 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 00:18 TimeSpiral wrote:I went back to read this post because several people were saying what a good and objective OP it was. I was really hoping it would be! On August 17 2015 18:45 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I would like to remind people that there are some huge benefits design wise and balance wise for all races. This might change the minds of many people who still dont know if macro mechanics removal is good.
Protoss
Every upgarade, every timing has been nerfed for the sole reason of chrono boost, they had to balance everything in case protoss used chrono boost to prepare some powerful timings.
This didnt help the game at all, tho you could choose what upgrade you want to chrono boost and think you had some "chooice" , you where then very limited if you wanted to transition into another composition with some decent upgrades.
Not to mention most Chrono Boosts would go to workers.
Removing Chrono Boost would give more way for Protoss to transition, get more specific upgrades.
Basically more freedom of chooice.
Zerg
Inject Larva with 4 larvas is the worst thing that ever happened to the true nature of Zerg, the true swarm. Basically every unit was heavily nerfed in WoL Beta just because zerg had potential of huge remax that where totally IMBA
This lead to Zerg doing timings in most games, also having to remax over and over again to win a battle, but the big problem is that there is no REWARD for expanding alot in WoL and HotS, people would just stay on 3-4 bases and so the Zerg remax was not that beneficial in the most cases, not to mention alot of supply was in drones and queens, making the Zerg army look small.... with some units having alot of supply just to tone down the possiblity of insane remax.
This also lead to another terrible design to help Zerg... the "free units" concept that alot of people hate.
With larva inject being nerfed to 2, Zerg could get a 1 supply unit finally, we might get to be swarmy and maybe supply for other units could go down as well, Zerg units might get some buffs, to do remax being heavily nerfed in ealry and mid game.
Auto-Inject leads to less punishing macro, injects being to punishable, tho i would prefer a change to hatchery that could spawn larva at a higher rate, and a change for Queens to nurture like they do in Stabow and Spread Creep.
Terran
MULE was mostly put in the game to play catch up with the Zerg production, but over time it has turned into a very gimmick and sometime OP mechanic, mostly in late game when you dont even need SCV's and you kill them for a bigger army then your enemy. We also saw some very strong comebacks that could never be possible for a Protoss or a Zerg
Killing SCV's also sometime feels that is not rewarding for both Protoss and Zerg and even other Terrans.
The benefits to removing the MULE is that some Terran units might get cheaper, you will have more SCANS, and that means more map awarness, you could still get supply drops that are basically 120 free minerals.
I guess you might say Terran gets a little less rewards then Z and P but in truth Terran was way to forgiving from the start in my opinion. PROTOSS It's a hard argument to make that not being able to intermittently dedicate double-speed production on anything you want is going to enhance freedom of choice. I think Protoss is getting hit really hard with this. Their play will become significantly more predictable. However, their timings will probably end up getting buffed, and will probably split the different between chrono and now. Overall, I think this will probably be a loss for Protoss. ZERG Why do you keep saying that Zerg doesn't have a 1-supply unit? Seriously: what are you talking about? The Zergling, bro. The Baneling, bro. Those are two staple, and incredibly good units. You have two 1-supply units--technically, they are half supply, which is even better. It's literally a BOGO unit. I'd be completely fine with a small buff to the ling/bane if you want them to become 1 supply each : ) And you get free units, dude. Zero supply, lol! Locusts, broodlings, but more notably, the Overseer. A tanky, supply-free flying spellcaster / detector with energy-scouting spells. The only 1-supply units in the game--other than workers--are Marines and Zealots. Your half-supply units can completely wreck these units, unless they have substantial upgrade leads and high-tech support units in play. Inject larva doesn't change the way larva works. You could always just build more hatches. It is the nature of larva itself that required the balance tweakings of the Zerg units. Even if inject was completely removed (like it probably should be), you'd still have access to insane tech switches and remaxes. The Zerg nerf is going to end up being a buff. Just wait and see. TERRAN They are going to remove the MULE. Nothing will get cheaper, lol. Maybe we get some new unit abilities, or maybe call-down supply will enhance the HP of the depot, or something. It will feel like a gigantic nerf at first, until everyone has to find a way to deal with PF's at every natural, and cloaked openers become much weaker. Terran will end up having the same amount, or less scans in the long run, because there will be less OC's built. Hopefully they give detection to another unit, like the Reaper (hint, hint), to compensate for the diminished number of scans Terrans will have in the early and mid-game. PROTOSS Not by a long shot, having more freedom to get certain upgrades and actually transtion better into some composition will be great for protoss. Basically protoss is the most predictable race since they cant really change up their game. They always can do some tweaks to some builds... but once they follow a build they cant really try anything else. Im talking about macro game not cheese. Overall your post is a total fail.
Nope. You don't free up choice by removing what makes getting that choice 50% faster. You're making a statement that makes absolutely no sense. Please, understand how the race operates at the top level first before you tell people who play the race they don't understand what they're doing or how the race plays.
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I don't really know for terran or Zerg, but i completely disagree with the removal of chronoboost. Your argument about it limiting design from blizzard is correct.. how you come to the conclusion that the existence of chronoboost REDUCES strategic diversity for players is beyond me. It's an important thing to scout for if you're against protoss; one of the tells, in fact, of a gateway attack - seeing what things protoss chronoboosts tells you a lot about his intentions.
I actually don't feel as inclined to write a long post as I thought, but I guess the tl;dr is that the removal of chronoboost reduces strategic diversity IMO.
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I always disliked larva inject for zerg, especially later in the game with the allowance for a large amount of idle larva per hatchery. While Terran and Protoss had to invest a significant amount of minerals/gas in building additional buildings for production as their economy ramped up, larva inject allowed Zerg to use all of the resources they didn't have to spend to sit on a healthy bank or build mass spines / spores. I'd much have preferred the game be like broodwar in this aspect, with zerg having to invest resources in many additional macro hatcheries to ramp up production, and have the game be balanced around this.
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one thought for zerg now. - seem like it will go from the most punishing race (miss injects = lose game) to the easiest race to macro, Since if toss or terran stop building probes/scv's then they are behind. If zerg takes an extra 10 seconds to cycle and build drones, no big deal, you can still build them all.
On August 18 2015 08:13 monomo wrote:
I don't really know for terran or Zerg, but i completely disagree with the removal of chronoboost. Your argument about it limiting design from blizzard is correct.. how you come to the conclusion that the existence of chronoboost REDUCES strategic diversity for players is beyond me. It's an important thing to scout for if you're against protoss; one of the tells, in fact, of a gateway attack - seeing what things protoss chronoboosts tells you a lot about his intentions.
I actually don't feel as inclined to write a long post as I thought, but I guess the tl;dr is that the removal of chronoboost reduces strategic diversity IMO.
At low levels of play, it might reduce strategic diversity, but at high levels, it will make toss less dependent on hitting all in timing windows and play an overall larger more complete game.
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On August 18 2015 07:48 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2015 00:41 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 18 2015 00:18 TimeSpiral wrote:I went back to read this post because several people were saying what a good and objective OP it was. I was really hoping it would be! On August 17 2015 18:45 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I would like to remind people that there are some huge benefits design wise and balance wise for all races. This might change the minds of many people who still dont know if macro mechanics removal is good.
Protoss
Every upgarade, every timing has been nerfed for the sole reason of chrono boost, they had to balance everything in case protoss used chrono boost to prepare some powerful timings.
This didnt help the game at all, tho you could choose what upgrade you want to chrono boost and think you had some "chooice" , you where then very limited if you wanted to transition into another composition with some decent upgrades.
Not to mention most Chrono Boosts would go to workers.
Removing Chrono Boost would give more way for Protoss to transition, get more specific upgrades.
Basically more freedom of chooice.
Zerg
Inject Larva with 4 larvas is the worst thing that ever happened to the true nature of Zerg, the true swarm. Basically every unit was heavily nerfed in WoL Beta just because zerg had potential of huge remax that where totally IMBA
This lead to Zerg doing timings in most games, also having to remax over and over again to win a battle, but the big problem is that there is no REWARD for expanding alot in WoL and HotS, people would just stay on 3-4 bases and so the Zerg remax was not that beneficial in the most cases, not to mention alot of supply was in drones and queens, making the Zerg army look small.... with some units having alot of supply just to tone down the possiblity of insane remax.
This also lead to another terrible design to help Zerg... the "free units" concept that alot of people hate.
With larva inject being nerfed to 2, Zerg could get a 1 supply unit finally, we might get to be swarmy and maybe supply for other units could go down as well, Zerg units might get some buffs, to do remax being heavily nerfed in ealry and mid game.
Auto-Inject leads to less punishing macro, injects being to punishable, tho i would prefer a change to hatchery that could spawn larva at a higher rate, and a change for Queens to nurture like they do in Stabow and Spread Creep.
Terran
MULE was mostly put in the game to play catch up with the Zerg production, but over time it has turned into a very gimmick and sometime OP mechanic, mostly in late game when you dont even need SCV's and you kill them for a bigger army then your enemy. We also saw some very strong comebacks that could never be possible for a Protoss or a Zerg
Killing SCV's also sometime feels that is not rewarding for both Protoss and Zerg and even other Terrans.
The benefits to removing the MULE is that some Terran units might get cheaper, you will have more SCANS, and that means more map awarness, you could still get supply drops that are basically 120 free minerals.
I guess you might say Terran gets a little less rewards then Z and P but in truth Terran was way to forgiving from the start in my opinion. PROTOSS It's a hard argument to make that not being able to intermittently dedicate double-speed production on anything you want is going to enhance freedom of choice. I think Protoss is getting hit really hard with this. Their play will become significantly more predictable. However, their timings will probably end up getting buffed, and will probably split the different between chrono and now. Overall, I think this will probably be a loss for Protoss. ZERG Why do you keep saying that Zerg doesn't have a 1-supply unit? Seriously: what are you talking about? The Zergling, bro. The Baneling, bro. Those are two staple, and incredibly good units. You have two 1-supply units--technically, they are half supply, which is even better. It's literally a BOGO unit. I'd be completely fine with a small buff to the ling/bane if you want them to become 1 supply each : ) And you get free units, dude. Zero supply, lol! Locusts, broodlings, but more notably, the Overseer. A tanky, supply-free flying spellcaster / detector with energy-scouting spells. The only 1-supply units in the game--other than workers--are Marines and Zealots. Your half-supply units can completely wreck these units, unless they have substantial upgrade leads and high-tech support units in play. Inject larva doesn't change the way larva works. You could always just build more hatches. It is the nature of larva itself that required the balance tweakings of the Zerg units. Even if inject was completely removed (like it probably should be), you'd still have access to insane tech switches and remaxes. The Zerg nerf is going to end up being a buff. Just wait and see. TERRAN They are going to remove the MULE. Nothing will get cheaper, lol. Maybe we get some new unit abilities, or maybe call-down supply will enhance the HP of the depot, or something. It will feel like a gigantic nerf at first, until everyone has to find a way to deal with PF's at every natural, and cloaked openers become much weaker. Terran will end up having the same amount, or less scans in the long run, because there will be less OC's built. Hopefully they give detection to another unit, like the Reaper (hint, hint), to compensate for the diminished number of scans Terrans will have in the early and mid-game. PROTOSS Not by a long shot, having more freedom to get certain upgrades and actually transtion better into some composition will be great for protoss. Basically protoss is the most predictable race since they cant really change up their game. They always can do some tweaks to some builds... but once they follow a build they cant really try anything else. Im talking about macro game not cheese. Overall your post is a total fail. Nope. You don't free up choice by removing what makes getting that choice 50% faster. You're making a statement that makes absolutely no sense. Please, understand how the race operates at the top level first before you tell people who play the race they don't understand what they're doing or how the race plays.
Not trying to support his argument or anything, but you agree that not adding additional choices is not the same as removing choices, right? I think that one change not giving much distinct benefit to the gameplay of one race is not necessarily a bad idea, provided that it improves the overall game in some way to compensate for the lost mechanic. I do feel a bit iffy that it's going, but on the other hand, I'm willing to be impressed by the resulting games if they can pull it off.
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I don't know how much of a true choice chrono was. You generally knew what you were going to chrono before the game starts and then if priorities change during gameplay there is usually a pretty 'right' answer.
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On August 18 2015 13:37 TheWinks wrote:
I don't know how much of a true choice chrono was. You generally knew what you were going to chrono before the game starts and then if priorities change during gameplay there is usually a pretty 'right' answer.
Basically 0 since most of the time you chrono workers.
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OP zerg suggestion is pretty horrible. Terran and Protoss units are so cost efficient that the only thing that keeps zerg in the fight is their ability to re max quickly.
In my opinion, make macro somewhat like Brood War. Throw away the babying shit like, automine workers, selecting more than 1 building at a time, set limits to how many units you can have selected at a time, do away with the f2 function, easy fog of war *forces people to actually learn maps*.
Give power back to the player who has better mechanics, that was one of the things that made brood war great.
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On August 18 2015 13:37 TheWinks wrote:
I don't know how much of a true choice chrono was. You generally knew what you were going to chrono before the game starts and then if priorities change during gameplay there is usually a pretty 'right' answer.
With chrono you could open up with builds that looked pretty much the same and chrono different things to drastically change them. And there isn't necessarily always a correct choice. Think of a standard gateway opening in TvP which can have all the same buildings at all the same time except more chrono on the gateway, and then a twilight, and chrono on the twilight, compared to a gateway expand with chrono on probes continuously and a twilight followup. These are 2 builds that are drastically different in HotS but with no chrono become exactly the same, and blink pressure can't pack anywhere near the same punch it did before (they can't speed it up to the research time it would be with constant chrono but it can't be the speed with no chrono at all either; it needs to be somewhere in between, which means that you can't do sharp blink timings anymore.)
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Terran benefits too much from this change, far more than the other races. Protoss got the worst end of this, Zerg is just okay. Calldown supply needs to be redone.
I really dislike the way this change effects 1 base plays, many of which were becoming very interesting in LOTV for Zerg and for Protoss. Zergs 1 base plays especially have been eliminated. Zerg is now forced to go hatch 1st... early pools are almost impossible to justify. Even an earlier Queen for defensive purposes, such as with a 16 pool > 18 hatch opener (essential in some cases), I have a hard time justifying doing this build now. Zerg, to me, has instantly become incredibly boring in the opening. Protoss has much less threat in the early game. Protoss will also be forced into fast expanding more, which is not favorable for them either; they want to maintain the early game threat. Terran is basically unchanged in the early game: Again, Terran benefited so much from this change. The threats and the choices Terran has the opening, unlike the other two races, are unchanged.
As a Zerg player, I hate how Zerg openers are being eliminated. Their opening is being channeled into something too standard and the game is becoming very bland. ... I am very disappointed.
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On August 18 2015 15:33 crazedrat wrote:
Terran benefits too much from this change, far more than the other races. Protoss got the worst end of this, Zerg is just okay. Calldown supply needs to be redone.
I really dislike the way this change effects 1 base plays, many of which were becoming very interesting in LOTV for Zerg and for Protoss. Zergs 1 base plays especially have been eliminated. Zerg is now forced to go hatch 1st... early pools are almost impossible to justify. Even an earlier Queen for defensive purposes, such as with a 16 pool > 18 hatch opener (essential in some cases), I have a hard time justifying doing this build now. Zerg, to me, has instantly become incredibly boring in the opening. Protoss has much less threat in the early game. Protoss will also be forced into fast expanding more, which is not favorable for them either; they want to maintain the early game threat. Terran is basically unchanged in the early game: Again, Terran benefited so much from this change. The threats and the choices Terran has the opening, unlike the other two races, is unchanged. Nerf calldown supply immediately, there is no need to wait.
As a Zerg player, I hate how Zerg openers are being eliminated. Their opening is being channeled into something too standard and the game is becoming very bland. ... I am very disappointed.
Overall this is a nerf to all ins and some cheese for all races.
You will never see ling/bling in ZvZ ever again... less zerlings in early game and more roaches.
Dont know if a Terran could still do a hellbat push and if it would make any sense
Early pool wont make any sense but you will see 2 hatch before pool and a quick macro hatch.
Or you could be very greedy and abuse the fact that hatches gives you 6 supply... so you drone scout and avoid making overlords for a long time... you can drone like a mad man.
Some people will love it and other will hate it, i love that we might not die to stupid shit and macro games would be more standard.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
Not much more to see here other than ZergLingShepherd1 making new accounts to get around his ban.
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EPT
