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This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns.
I'm high masters and used to use a 2gate opening quite a bit, until the reinforcement cutoff strat really boned me over. Because slowlings are so much faster than zealots, they can chase away reinforcing zelaots until they group up. This buys the Zerg ample time to defend the initial zealots at it's hatch with 3 queens and a single spine. Then you're notably far behind due to very delayed expansion, while Zerg's is already up.
There's also little reason to build your second gateway so late - you can afford 13 gate and second gate at 15. Admittedly I don't probe scout, but I can't imagine it would make that much of a difference. I also built the gates at the nat in order to shorten the rush distance and start the wall early - if Zerg has early speed, he can delay any expo with mass ling if you build in the main.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D13xMYx.png)
7-2 so far on #dreampool
i lost on metal.. that should be obvious.. and akilon.. but it was late game when i lost.
the 7 wins weren't close.. just sayin'.. pretty viable at my level..
ranked top 5 dia currently.
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On December 01 2014 15:25 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns.
I'm high masters and used to use a 2gate opening quite a bit, until the reinforcement cutoff strat really boned me over. Because slowlings are so much faster than zealots, they can chase away reinforcing zelaots until they group up. This buys the Zerg ample time to defend the initial zealots at it's hatch with 3 queens and a single spine. Then you're notably far behind due to very delayed expansion, while Zerg's is already up.
There's also little reason to build your second gateway so late - you can afford 13 gate and second gate at 15. Admittedly I don't probe scout, but I can't imagine it would make that much of a difference. I also built the gates at the nat in order to shorten the rush distance and start the wall early - if Zerg has early speed, he can delay any expo with mass ling if you build in the main.
what reinforcing spawns? did you even read the build?
there is no 'reinforcing'.. it's basically pool 5 zealots then go.. i don't send them as they spawn.
also building the gate at the natural is a bad idea IMO.. if they early pool (with or w/o speed) you could get fucked by losing the pylon etc.. the distance to pull probe to protect it is very far and not worth it. This isn't a 'proxy' 2 gate in your natural.. your build sounds more like a zealot rush of some kind
walling your main ramp is essential and saved me a few times from early pools.
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ibuild
no sound but it's the first game of the stream
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I do a somewhat similar build and it works decent at the NA GM level. It's not sustainable, but it's not cheesy either. With practice and scouting a zerg will always come out a little ahead vs this build, but won't have a game winning advantage. If a zerg doesn't scout or overreacts and under reacts the protoss can have a BIG advantage =]
I don't really do this build much aymore, but it's nice for BoX games. Strong vs hatch first or no scout, and auto wins vs 3h before pool and 6-10 pools =]
9 pylon @ natural
13 gate
(chrono)
15 gate
(chrono)
16 pylon + (scout)
~~ chrono out 5 zealots, but attack with the first 3 if vs hatch first.
18 pylon
21 (after your 3rd zealot starts) gas.
31 nexus
32 forge
33 core
33 pylon
@100% core cannon at natural followed by WG and sentry =]
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Hey OP, I've been doing this build more or less since WoL. My take on it though is to start off with Gateway and forge and chrono +1 attack since it makes zealots kill lings in two hits in stead of three. The zealots end up doing more than twice as much damage but game gets stressful if they fast roaches or surprise mutas. I often am forced to build 3 to 5 cannons at the natural if they properly respond with roaches. Mutas pretty much end it for me if I had to pay out for 5 cannons. Have you ever tried the +1 attack or is the voidray timing too important?
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Reminds me of an old build called the Love build back from WoL but more economic with less early damage potential.
I've experimented with things like this having a later 2nd Gateway, etc, but I just haven't had as much success personally. Maybe it's because I don't get my Natural up early enough, I don't know, but the Love build does seem to work better for me than builds with earlier or later Gateways.
The Love build, in case you want to try it:
9 Pylon @Natural, Chrono Probes x1 @Pylon completion
Scout, try to keep Probe alive.
13 Gateway
13 2nd Gateway (yes, 2 Gateways @13), Chrono Probes x1
16 Pylon (try to block Zerg Natural with this, but don't delay the Pylon if it's not possible to do so)
16 Zealot (Chrono)
Probes and Zealots (Chrono as much as possible on Zealots), push @ 3 Zealots
My version:
Send Zealots ASAP right when they come out unless holding off cheese with them because the Zerg usually won't have enough at the time to kill the Zealot if it's micro'd well before others arrive (temporary retreat for grouping with reinforcements if necessary). Also bring a single Probe (or keep scouting Probe alive and use it) because 2 Zealot hits + 1 Probe hit kills a Ling.
Follow up with expo and tech, or more Zealots if I need them or think I can win.
Small note on Zealot micro: In small numbers of Zealots vs Lings, "kiting" with Zealots to avoid surrounds can be very effective.
Pros:
-- Holds cheesy Pools.
-- Forces lots of Zerglings early.
-- Often kills Natural vs Hatch-first if Zerg slips up on micro and/or making enough Zerglings.
-- Able to choose between going for Natural or going for Drones in main, either forces units.
-- Often trades quite well with good micro.
Cons:
-- NOT a large map build.
-- Requires good Zealot micro and multitasking to work well.
-- Not as techy as a 1-Gate Cyber expo.
-- Not as economic as an FFE.
-- Not the best vs 14- and 15-Pools, though not as bad as normal cheese builds against them economically.
Where 1-Gate Cyber FEs rely on earlier tech as a tradeoff for delayed economy, and FFEs rely on delayed tech for safety and a better economy, builds like the Ignorant build and the Love build rely on forcing the Zerg to delay their economy to even out the delayed economy of the build. They are designed to force the Zerg to react earlier on instead of the Protoss staying mostly defensive. It's basically a tradeoff of economy with a chance to deal major damage. Either the opponent makes a lot of units and/or Spines to defend (possibly evening up the economy or putting it in your favor if the Zerg overcommits) or doesn't make enough defense and takes major, often game-ending, damage.
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How do you 2gate at your choke , build 5 zealots, then attack , and Zergs not hold it?
lol...
I don't see this working ever...I really hope Protoss players do this to me on ladder so I can have free wins....
All you have to do is drone scout or good ovie scout, see he is 2gating, by the time you scout he would at most have 2-3 zealots, once you scout his minerals (if you do) , you will know he is just building more zealots, especially since i'm sure you are chrono boosting them....
All zerg has to do is Hatch first, 4 queens, multiple spines, some lings, gg you lose by default.
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On December 06 2014 08:46 Ignorant prodigy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 15:25 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns.
I'm high masters and used to use a 2gate opening quite a bit, until the reinforcement cutoff strat really boned me over. Because slowlings are so much faster than zealots, they can chase away reinforcing zelaots until they group up. This buys the Zerg ample time to defend the initial zealots at it's hatch with 3 queens and a single spine. Then you're notably far behind due to very delayed expansion, while Zerg's is already up.
There's also little reason to build your second gateway so late - you can afford 13 gate and second gate at 15. Admittedly I don't probe scout, but I can't imagine it would make that much of a difference. I also built the gates at the nat in order to shorten the rush distance and start the wall early - if Zerg has early speed, he can delay any expo with mass ling if you build in the main. what reinforcing spawns? did you even read the build? there is no 'reinforcing'.. it's basically pool 5 zealots then go.. i don't send them as they spawn. also building the gate at the natural is a bad idea IMO.. if they early pool (with or w/o speed) you could get fucked by losing the pylon etc.. the distance to pull probe to protect it is very far and not worth it. This isn't a 'proxy' 2 gate in your natural.. your build sounds more like a zealot rush of some kind walling your main ramp is essential and saved me a few times from early pools.
There's absolutely no benefit of "pooling" them originally, beyond hoping your opponent doesn't know what they're reading. It's substantially worse to pool them.
If they get an early pool without speed, you're at an advantage because you can simply chrono out Zealots and then counter. An early pool with speed is map dependent - if you're on a map like shakuras, you simply finish the wall with a forge, or you build a second pylon on teh ramp and stick a zealot in, and still get a cannon ASAP prior to nexus.
Once again, you're relying on a complete element of misreading despite fully allowing your opponent to scout your build, which is fairly ridiculous. Some builds that are unorthodox are OK in the sense your opponent has no idea it's coming. With your build, it's absolutely clear far in advance it's coming. Which is probably why it would work in Diamond.
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On December 06 2014 15:46 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 08:46 Ignorant prodigy wrote:On December 01 2014 15:25 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns.
I'm high masters and used to use a 2gate opening quite a bit, until the reinforcement cutoff strat really boned me over. Because slowlings are so much faster than zealots, they can chase away reinforcing zelaots until they group up. This buys the Zerg ample time to defend the initial zealots at it's hatch with 3 queens and a single spine. Then you're notably far behind due to very delayed expansion, while Zerg's is already up.
There's also little reason to build your second gateway so late - you can afford 13 gate and second gate at 15. Admittedly I don't probe scout, but I can't imagine it would make that much of a difference. I also built the gates at the nat in order to shorten the rush distance and start the wall early - if Zerg has early speed, he can delay any expo with mass ling if you build in the main. what reinforcing spawns? did you even read the build? there is no 'reinforcing'.. it's basically pool 5 zealots then go.. i don't send them as they spawn. also building the gate at the natural is a bad idea IMO.. if they early pool (with or w/o speed) you could get fucked by losing the pylon etc.. the distance to pull probe to protect it is very far and not worth it. This isn't a 'proxy' 2 gate in your natural.. your build sounds more like a zealot rush of some kind walling your main ramp is essential and saved me a few times from early pools. There's absolutely no benefit of "pooling" them originally, beyond hoping your opponent doesn't know what they're reading. It's substantially worse to pool them. If they get an early pool without speed, you're at an advantage because you can simply chrono out Zealots and then counter. An early pool with speed is map dependent - if you're on a map like shakuras, you simply finish the wall with a forge, or you build a second pylon on teh ramp and stick a zealot in, and still get a cannon ASAP prior to nexus. Once again, you're relying on a complete element of misreading despite fully allowing your opponent to scout your build, which is fairly ridiculous. Some builds that are unorthodox are OK in the sense your opponent has no idea it's coming. With your build, it's absolutely clear far in advance it's coming. Which is probably why it would work in Diamond.
I said at the very start this works at my level... i never claimed it would be a new standard build for masters to use....
Sending in 1 zealot at a time across the map is suicidal.. and ez to 'ignore' like you mentioned.. when 5 come at once you can't engage with slow lings in the middle of the map.. they also provide defense vs. early pools and keeps the zergs from doing just what you said they'd do.. it lets you get your natural wall up before they can do anything about ..
plus if you can't do enough damage you just bring them back home and use them to try and snipe the 3rd... so many people arguing that it shouldn't work.. yet i've given proof of it working over and over again at the high diamond level...
On December 06 2014 14:33 GGzerG wrote:
How do you 2gate at your choke , build 5 zealots, then attack , and Zergs not hold it?
lol...
I don't see this working ever...I really hope Protoss players do this to me on ladder so I can have free wins....
All you have to do is drone scout or good ovie scout, see he is 2gating, by the time you scout he would at most have 2-3 zealots, once you scout his minerals (if you do) , you will know he is just building more zealots, especially since i'm sure you are chrono boosting them....
All zerg has to do is Hatch first, 4 queens, multiple spines, some lings, gg you lose by default.
I just watched a GM zerg fail to react "properly" to this build even when ovie scouting...
and with a 9 scout probe few zergs go hatch first in fear of getting it delayed with a pylon or even a cannon rush threat
you dont see it working ever.. but i've shown proof of it working..
Here's the GM vs GM proof::
http://drop.sc/389968
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On December 06 2014 14:18 NinjaDuckBob wrote:
Reminds me of an old build called the Love build back from WoL but more economic with less early damage potential.
I've experimented with things like this having a later 2nd Gateway, etc, but I just haven't had as much success personally. Maybe it's because I don't get my Natural up early enough, I don't know, but the Love build does seem to work better for me than builds with earlier or later Gateways.
The Love build, in case you want to try it:
9 Pylon @Natural, Chrono Probes x1 @Pylon completion
Scout, try to keep Probe alive.
13 Gateway
13 2nd Gateway (yes, 2 Gateways @13), Chrono Probes x1
16 Pylon (try to block Zerg Natural with this, but don't delay the Pylon if it's not possible to do so)
16 Zealot (Chrono)
Probes and Zealots (Chrono as much as possible on Zealots), push @ 3 Zealots
My version:
Send Zealots ASAP right when they come out unless holding off cheese with them because the Zerg usually won't have enough at the time to kill the Zealot if it's micro'd well before others arrive (temporary retreat for grouping with reinforcements if necessary). Also bring a single Probe (or keep scouting Probe alive and use it) because 2 Zealot hits + 1 Probe hit kills a Ling.
Follow up with expo and tech, or more Zealots if I need them or think I can win.
Small note on Zealot micro: In small numbers of Zealots vs Lings, "kiting" with Zealots to avoid surrounds can be very effective.
Pros:
-- Holds cheesy Pools.
-- Forces lots of Zerglings early.
-- Often kills Natural vs Hatch-first if Zerg slips up on micro and/or making enough Zerglings.
-- Able to choose between going for Natural or going for Drones in main, either forces units.
-- Often trades quite well with good micro.
Cons:
-- NOT a large map build.
-- Requires good Zealot micro and multitasking to work well.
-- Not as techy as a 1-Gate Cyber expo.
-- Not as economic as an FFE.
-- Not the best vs 14- and 15-Pools, though not as bad as normal cheese builds against them economically.
Where 1-Gate Cyber FEs rely on earlier tech as a tradeoff for delayed economy, and FFEs rely on delayed tech for safety and a better economy, builds like the Ignorant build and the Love build rely on forcing the Zerg to delay their economy to even out the delayed economy of the build. They are designed to force the Zerg to react earlier on instead of the Protoss staying mostly defensive. It's basically a tradeoff of economy with a chance to deal major damage. Either the opponent makes a lot of units and/or Spines to defend (possibly evening up the economy or putting it in your favor if the Zerg overcommits) or doesn't make enough defense and takes major, often game-ending, damage.
sounds cool. not sure i have the4 micro for that though lol 
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On December 07 2014 01:47 Ignorant prodigy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 15:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 06 2014 08:46 Ignorant prodigy wrote:On December 01 2014 15:25 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns.
I'm high masters and used to use a 2gate opening quite a bit, until the reinforcement cutoff strat really boned me over. Because slowlings are so much faster than zealots, they can chase away reinforcing zelaots until they group up. This buys the Zerg ample time to defend the initial zealots at it's hatch with 3 queens and a single spine. Then you're notably far behind due to very delayed expansion, while Zerg's is already up.
There's also little reason to build your second gateway so late - you can afford 13 gate and second gate at 15. Admittedly I don't probe scout, but I can't imagine it would make that much of a difference. I also built the gates at the nat in order to shorten the rush distance and start the wall early - if Zerg has early speed, he can delay any expo with mass ling if you build in the main. what reinforcing spawns? did you even read the build? there is no 'reinforcing'.. it's basically pool 5 zealots then go.. i don't send them as they spawn. also building the gate at the natural is a bad idea IMO.. if they early pool (with or w/o speed) you could get fucked by losing the pylon etc.. the distance to pull probe to protect it is very far and not worth it. This isn't a 'proxy' 2 gate in your natural.. your build sounds more like a zealot rush of some kind walling your main ramp is essential and saved me a few times from early pools. There's absolutely no benefit of "pooling" them originally, beyond hoping your opponent doesn't know what they're reading. It's substantially worse to pool them. If they get an early pool without speed, you're at an advantage because you can simply chrono out Zealots and then counter. An early pool with speed is map dependent - if you're on a map like shakuras, you simply finish the wall with a forge, or you build a second pylon on teh ramp and stick a zealot in, and still get a cannon ASAP prior to nexus. Once again, you're relying on a complete element of misreading despite fully allowing your opponent to scout your build, which is fairly ridiculous. Some builds that are unorthodox are OK in the sense your opponent has no idea it's coming. With your build, it's absolutely clear far in advance it's coming. Which is probably why it would work in Diamond. I said at the very start this works at my level... i never claimed it would be a new standard build for masters to use.... Sending in 1 zealot at a time across the map is suicidal.. and ez to 'ignore' like you mentioned.. when 5 come at once you can't engage with slow lings in the middle of the map.. they also provide defense vs. early pools and keeps the zergs from doing just what you said they'd do.. it lets you get your natural wall up before they can do anything about .. plus if you can't do enough damage you just bring them back home and use them to try and snipe the 3rd... so many people arguing that it shouldn't work.. yet i've given proof of it working over and over again at the high diamond level... Show nested quote +On December 06 2014 14:33 GGzerG wrote:
How do you 2gate at your choke , build 5 zealots, then attack , and Zergs not hold it?
lol...
I don't see this working ever...I really hope Protoss players do this to me on ladder so I can have free wins....
All you have to do is drone scout or good ovie scout, see he is 2gating, by the time you scout he would at most have 2-3 zealots, once you scout his minerals (if you do) , you will know he is just building more zealots, especially since i'm sure you are chrono boosting them....
All zerg has to do is Hatch first, 4 queens, multiple spines, some lings, gg you lose by default. I just watched a GM zerg fail to react "properly" to this build even when ovie scouting... and with a 9 scout probe few zergs go hatch first in fear of getting it delayed with a pylon or even a cannon rush threat you dont see it working ever.. but i've shown proof of it working.. Here's the GM vs GM proof:: http://drop.sc/389968
I don't think you have a grasp on the difference between sending them 1 by 1 and pooling them. Saying it's suicidal is nonsensical. You don't lose any of the zealots that you send 1 by 1. So you still have 5 by the end. You just apply pressure in the meantime, cause drones to be pulled, etc.
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On December 07 2014 01:50 Ignorant prodigy wrote:sounds cool. not sure i have the4 micro for that though lol
The micro is just a matter of practice. Just microing your Zealots to avoid being surrounded, choosing whether to attack Queens, Lings, or Drones, doing your best to distribute the damage evenly between your Zealots, etc. I actually find it easier than trying to use Zealots at a later time since the Zerg will usually have less units (if you wanted, you could also make 5 Zealots which hit at an earlier time than your build but your expo will be delayed more). It also seems forcing units/Spines a little earlier makes it harder on the Zerg's part as far as commitment level is concerned.
The hardest part is the multitasking in the early stage, but I'm sure high Diamonds + can deal with that with a little practice.
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i used to see nony open 2 gate against zerg on metalopolis a lot back in wol, was always entertaining to watch how the games played out
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i loved this build conceptually in early WoL but i never got it to work vs anyone decent. (because i loved 2 gate openers in bw :D)
i've had (in the past) more success with kiwikaki's nexus gate gate forge but those wins were so unsatisfying, 100% them fucking up / being confused.
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On December 07 2014 02:15 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2014 01:47 Ignorant prodigy wrote:On December 06 2014 15:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 06 2014 08:46 Ignorant prodigy wrote:On December 01 2014 15:25 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns.
I'm high masters and used to use a 2gate opening quite a bit, until the reinforcement cutoff strat really boned me over. Because slowlings are so much faster than zealots, they can chase away reinforcing zelaots until they group up. This buys the Zerg ample time to defend the initial zealots at it's hatch with 3 queens and a single spine. Then you're notably far behind due to very delayed expansion, while Zerg's is already up.
There's also little reason to build your second gateway so late - you can afford 13 gate and second gate at 15. Admittedly I don't probe scout, but I can't imagine it would make that much of a difference. I also built the gates at the nat in order to shorten the rush distance and start the wall early - if Zerg has early speed, he can delay any expo with mass ling if you build in the main. what reinforcing spawns? did you even read the build? there is no 'reinforcing'.. it's basically pool 5 zealots then go.. i don't send them as they spawn. also building the gate at the natural is a bad idea IMO.. if they early pool (with or w/o speed) you could get fucked by losing the pylon etc.. the distance to pull probe to protect it is very far and not worth it. This isn't a 'proxy' 2 gate in your natural.. your build sounds more like a zealot rush of some kind walling your main ramp is essential and saved me a few times from early pools. There's absolutely no benefit of "pooling" them originally, beyond hoping your opponent doesn't know what they're reading. It's substantially worse to pool them. If they get an early pool without speed, you're at an advantage because you can simply chrono out Zealots and then counter. An early pool with speed is map dependent - if you're on a map like shakuras, you simply finish the wall with a forge, or you build a second pylon on teh ramp and stick a zealot in, and still get a cannon ASAP prior to nexus. Once again, you're relying on a complete element of misreading despite fully allowing your opponent to scout your build, which is fairly ridiculous. Some builds that are unorthodox are OK in the sense your opponent has no idea it's coming. With your build, it's absolutely clear far in advance it's coming. Which is probably why it would work in Diamond. I said at the very start this works at my level... i never claimed it would be a new standard build for masters to use.... Sending in 1 zealot at a time across the map is suicidal.. and ez to 'ignore' like you mentioned.. when 5 come at once you can't engage with slow lings in the middle of the map.. they also provide defense vs. early pools and keeps the zergs from doing just what you said they'd do.. it lets you get your natural wall up before they can do anything about .. plus if you can't do enough damage you just bring them back home and use them to try and snipe the 3rd... so many people arguing that it shouldn't work.. yet i've given proof of it working over and over again at the high diamond level... On December 06 2014 14:33 GGzerG wrote:
How do you 2gate at your choke , build 5 zealots, then attack , and Zergs not hold it?
lol...
I don't see this working ever...I really hope Protoss players do this to me on ladder so I can have free wins....
All you have to do is drone scout or good ovie scout, see he is 2gating, by the time you scout he would at most have 2-3 zealots, once you scout his minerals (if you do) , you will know he is just building more zealots, especially since i'm sure you are chrono boosting them....
All zerg has to do is Hatch first, 4 queens, multiple spines, some lings, gg you lose by default. I just watched a GM zerg fail to react "properly" to this build even when ovie scouting... and with a 9 scout probe few zergs go hatch first in fear of getting it delayed with a pylon or even a cannon rush threat you dont see it working ever.. but i've shown proof of it working.. Here's the GM vs GM proof:: http://drop.sc/389968 I don't think you have a grasp on the difference between sending them 1 by 1 and pooling them. Saying it's suicidal is nonsensical. You don't lose any of the zealots that you send 1 by 1. So you still have 5 by the end. You just apply pressure in the meantime, cause drones to be pulled, etc.
honestly, you may have the grasp but you definitely fail to make your point.
Reading your first comment (accentuations by me):
On December 01 2014 15:25 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns. (...)
and then your more recent one:
On December 07 2014 02:15 FabledIntegral wrote:
(...) You don't lose any of the zealots that you send 1 by 1. (...)
makes one believe you might want to tone down your condescending way
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so the problem is, in gm after building 5 zealots like that and heading home cuz of lings and spine, there will be 12 hydras and 3 full base eco bases greeting my air units :D
aaaaand ur fucked^^
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On December 07 2014 20:06 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2014 02:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2014 01:47 Ignorant prodigy wrote:On December 06 2014 15:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 06 2014 08:46 Ignorant prodigy wrote:On December 01 2014 15:25 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns.
I'm high masters and used to use a 2gate opening quite a bit, until the reinforcement cutoff strat really boned me over. Because slowlings are so much faster than zealots, they can chase away reinforcing zelaots until they group up. This buys the Zerg ample time to defend the initial zealots at it's hatch with 3 queens and a single spine. Then you're notably far behind due to very delayed expansion, while Zerg's is already up.
There's also little reason to build your second gateway so late - you can afford 13 gate and second gate at 15. Admittedly I don't probe scout, but I can't imagine it would make that much of a difference. I also built the gates at the nat in order to shorten the rush distance and start the wall early - if Zerg has early speed, he can delay any expo with mass ling if you build in the main. what reinforcing spawns? did you even read the build? there is no 'reinforcing'.. it's basically pool 5 zealots then go.. i don't send them as they spawn. also building the gate at the natural is a bad idea IMO.. if they early pool (with or w/o speed) you could get fucked by losing the pylon etc.. the distance to pull probe to protect it is very far and not worth it. This isn't a 'proxy' 2 gate in your natural.. your build sounds more like a zealot rush of some kind walling your main ramp is essential and saved me a few times from early pools. There's absolutely no benefit of "pooling" them originally, beyond hoping your opponent doesn't know what they're reading. It's substantially worse to pool them. If they get an early pool without speed, you're at an advantage because you can simply chrono out Zealots and then counter. An early pool with speed is map dependent - if you're on a map like shakuras, you simply finish the wall with a forge, or you build a second pylon on teh ramp and stick a zealot in, and still get a cannon ASAP prior to nexus. Once again, you're relying on a complete element of misreading despite fully allowing your opponent to scout your build, which is fairly ridiculous. Some builds that are unorthodox are OK in the sense your opponent has no idea it's coming. With your build, it's absolutely clear far in advance it's coming. Which is probably why it would work in Diamond. I said at the very start this works at my level... i never claimed it would be a new standard build for masters to use.... Sending in 1 zealot at a time across the map is suicidal.. and ez to 'ignore' like you mentioned.. when 5 come at once you can't engage with slow lings in the middle of the map.. they also provide defense vs. early pools and keeps the zergs from doing just what you said they'd do.. it lets you get your natural wall up before they can do anything about .. plus if you can't do enough damage you just bring them back home and use them to try and snipe the 3rd... so many people arguing that it shouldn't work.. yet i've given proof of it working over and over again at the high diamond level... On December 06 2014 14:33 GGzerG wrote:
How do you 2gate at your choke , build 5 zealots, then attack , and Zergs not hold it?
lol...
I don't see this working ever...I really hope Protoss players do this to me on ladder so I can have free wins....
All you have to do is drone scout or good ovie scout, see he is 2gating, by the time you scout he would at most have 2-3 zealots, once you scout his minerals (if you do) , you will know he is just building more zealots, especially since i'm sure you are chrono boosting them....
All zerg has to do is Hatch first, 4 queens, multiple spines, some lings, gg you lose by default. I just watched a GM zerg fail to react "properly" to this build even when ovie scouting... and with a 9 scout probe few zergs go hatch first in fear of getting it delayed with a pylon or even a cannon rush threat you dont see it working ever.. but i've shown proof of it working.. Here's the GM vs GM proof:: http://drop.sc/389968 I don't think you have a grasp on the difference between sending them 1 by 1 and pooling them. Saying it's suicidal is nonsensical. You don't lose any of the zealots that you send 1 by 1. So you still have 5 by the end. You just apply pressure in the meantime, cause drones to be pulled, etc. honestly, you may have the grasp but you definitely fail to make your point. Reading your first comment (accentuations by me): Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 15:25 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns. (...) and then your more recent one: Show nested quote +On December 07 2014 02:15 FabledIntegral wrote:
(...) You don't lose any of the zealots that you send 1 by 1. (...) makes one believe you might want to tone down your condescending way
You're right - I jumped the gun and even contradicted myself as I assumed it was a variant of a normal 2gate, in which sending them 1 by 1 is what forces the pressure and how every 2gate has been performed. The entire reason 2gate failed as a build in the longrun is that zergs could simply send 8 lings to cut off reinforcements and use queens to protect against the initial 2-3 zealots.
The protoss's typical goal then became to send zealots 1 by 1 and not let any reinforcements die, but still pressure. However, the resulting pressure ended up being so light that Zergs ended up miles ahead of the Protoss. You still wouldn't lose any zealots, however, when doing this.
His build is only substantially worse than the "pressure" build that doesn't even work anymore. Instead of having 5 zealots in the middle of the map constantly pressuring and forcing Zerglings and reduced mining time (which doesn't even work itself), he just pools 5 zealots, has an insanely delayed natural, and then to top it off, absolutely no way to defend that natural.
I mixed up his build at first, only because his actual build ended up being even worse. I don't really understand the point in even pressing on builds that work in "high diamond." I have 20 builds I do that work in low GM that still suck (I play random), a 2gate variant one of them included.
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On December 07 2014 20:06 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2014 02:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 07 2014 01:47 Ignorant prodigy wrote:On December 06 2014 15:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 06 2014 08:46 Ignorant prodigy wrote:On December 01 2014 15:25 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns.
I'm high masters and used to use a 2gate opening quite a bit, until the reinforcement cutoff strat really boned me over. Because slowlings are so much faster than zealots, they can chase away reinforcing zelaots until they group up. This buys the Zerg ample time to defend the initial zealots at it's hatch with 3 queens and a single spine. Then you're notably far behind due to very delayed expansion, while Zerg's is already up.
There's also little reason to build your second gateway so late - you can afford 13 gate and second gate at 15. Admittedly I don't probe scout, but I can't imagine it would make that much of a difference. I also built the gates at the nat in order to shorten the rush distance and start the wall early - if Zerg has early speed, he can delay any expo with mass ling if you build in the main. what reinforcing spawns? did you even read the build? there is no 'reinforcing'.. it's basically pool 5 zealots then go.. i don't send them as they spawn. also building the gate at the natural is a bad idea IMO.. if they early pool (with or w/o speed) you could get fucked by losing the pylon etc.. the distance to pull probe to protect it is very far and not worth it. This isn't a 'proxy' 2 gate in your natural.. your build sounds more like a zealot rush of some kind walling your main ramp is essential and saved me a few times from early pools. There's absolutely no benefit of "pooling" them originally, beyond hoping your opponent doesn't know what they're reading. It's substantially worse to pool them. If they get an early pool without speed, you're at an advantage because you can simply chrono out Zealots and then counter. An early pool with speed is map dependent - if you're on a map like shakuras, you simply finish the wall with a forge, or you build a second pylon on teh ramp and stick a zealot in, and still get a cannon ASAP prior to nexus. Once again, you're relying on a complete element of misreading despite fully allowing your opponent to scout your build, which is fairly ridiculous. Some builds that are unorthodox are OK in the sense your opponent has no idea it's coming. With your build, it's absolutely clear far in advance it's coming. Which is probably why it would work in Diamond. I said at the very start this works at my level... i never claimed it would be a new standard build for masters to use.... Sending in 1 zealot at a time across the map is suicidal.. and ez to 'ignore' like you mentioned.. when 5 come at once you can't engage with slow lings in the middle of the map.. they also provide defense vs. early pools and keeps the zergs from doing just what you said they'd do.. it lets you get your natural wall up before they can do anything about .. plus if you can't do enough damage you just bring them back home and use them to try and snipe the 3rd... so many people arguing that it shouldn't work.. yet i've given proof of it working over and over again at the high diamond level... On December 06 2014 14:33 GGzerG wrote:
How do you 2gate at your choke , build 5 zealots, then attack , and Zergs not hold it?
lol...
I don't see this working ever...I really hope Protoss players do this to me on ladder so I can have free wins....
All you have to do is drone scout or good ovie scout, see he is 2gating, by the time you scout he would at most have 2-3 zealots, once you scout his minerals (if you do) , you will know he is just building more zealots, especially since i'm sure you are chrono boosting them....
All zerg has to do is Hatch first, 4 queens, multiple spines, some lings, gg you lose by default. I just watched a GM zerg fail to react "properly" to this build even when ovie scouting... and with a 9 scout probe few zergs go hatch first in fear of getting it delayed with a pylon or even a cannon rush threat you dont see it working ever.. but i've shown proof of it working.. Here's the GM vs GM proof:: http://drop.sc/389968 I don't think you have a grasp on the difference between sending them 1 by 1 and pooling them. Saying it's suicidal is nonsensical. You don't lose any of the zealots that you send 1 by 1. So you still have 5 by the end. You just apply pressure in the meantime, cause drones to be pulled, etc. honestly, you may have the grasp but you definitely fail to make your point. Reading your first comment (accentuations by me): Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 15:25 FabledIntegral wrote:
This is countered if the Zerg player builders 8 lings and ignores the zealots and just kills the reinforcing spawns. (...) and then your more recent one: Show nested quote +On December 07 2014 02:15 FabledIntegral wrote:
(...) You don't lose any of the zealots that you send 1 by 1. (...) makes one believe you might want to tone down your condescending way
thank you
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EPT
