On December 09 2014 17:55 Teoita wrote: Calm down everyone. If you don't keep the conversation in this thread civil i'll have to close it.
don't close it
agree to disagree on the zealots is all I can say. I didn't honestly think that tiny detail would generate so much negativity. the concept of the build is what matters, if the player decides sending the zealots and building his structures at his natural-then it's still essentially the same build, just executed slightly different for different reasons.
any more on the subject is just beating a dead horse
As a protoss in plat who was consistantly losing every single PvZ I switched to this build and now I'm doing a LOT better.
Note, I didn't read about this and then switch, I just wanted to be more aggressive because watching my replays, zergs were being SUPER greedy which ended in me dieing horribly.
The difference in my build is that I get my gates a bit sooner (2 gates on 12, cutting probes) and then chrono the first 3 zealots. IF an overlord scouts this I send them immediately and rally 2 more to their nat, resuming probe production and FFE to my nat. If the zerg hasn't sent their OL to my main ramp and scouted my gates then I'll wait for 5 zealots. In my opinion if you're going for a zealot rush intoi expand, commit to rushing those zealots out asap. Don't half arse a cheesy opening.
I'm well aware that I'm relying on the zerg being bad. Once or twice I've hit a zerg who built just enough defense and then immediately drones onto 3 bases, but it's pretty rare at my level.
my follow up is not a stargate voidrays however. I did this for a while and it felt really super coin flippy. If zerg gets extra queens you're dead. If they responsd with hydra you'll never hold the 3rd. Instead as soon as possible I get +1 attack, a m-core and 6 gates and go again with zealots. Behind that I'm putting down a robo and a stargate while taking a 3rd. When my zealots hit their 3rd I can see what units they are making. this allows me to commit hard to colossus, immortals or phoenix. By forcing an engagement on their side of the map I buy the time I need to make the units I need vs their chosen composition.
Something that the better players here might not realise is that at lower levels zerg players are TERRIBLE. So many times I see no creep spread and assume mutas and start getting phoenix only to get rolled by a late, off creep roach hydra push. Zergs regularly get all tech and then seem to roll the dice on what they build. Scouting a hydra den or a spire doesn't mean anything. They could literally be making anything. I've opened phoenix, killed 15 mutas only to have a zerg double down and just make more mutas. I've seen zergs open with a small roach hydra count and then go muta. Or swarm host. Or super fast hive, rushing for BL.
The point is that the only way to know what a zerg is doing down in shitty plat level is to attack them and see what they make. Either that or go for a middle of the road blink stalker colossus build that can sort of deal with everything, but I HATE stalkers. I hate them so much. Stupid pew pew unit.
On December 10 2014 02:55 DinoMight wrote: Guys...
Diamond is the top 20% of StarCraft 2 players. This means that at least 80% of StarCraft 2 players can benefit from this guide.
Not everyone is interested in being a pro and/or playing like one. Obviously some people do. In that case - it's fine, they don't have to do this build. I think Ignorant has been very clear that this works for him and at his level.
There's an argument to be made that posting certain pro builds is pointless because they're actually bad for most players. PartinG's blink builds are USELESS TO ME because they require ungodly micro that even in Diamond (top 20% of StarCraft players) I don't come remotely close to. Pooling the Zealots may be bad at the pro level. But it makes the build easier to execute, and it potentially surprises them more if they scouted poorly. It makes sense at a Diamond level.
Sure I understand that there is a "correct" way to play the game at the pro level and a "standard" that is widely accepted... but I don't think that everyone cares about that to be honest.
The guys in Gold struggling with PvZ will look at this build and say "you know what, that sounds doable, let me try it."
To say that 80% of people would benefit is fallacious. It's a guide that describes a clearly suboptimal way to play. I posted a build that is similar to his build, but nearly improved in every way. He then posts a replay that is exactly in line with what I posted. That's the frustration.
As seen in the other post, this thread resembles nothing on what a Teamliquid guide should be. Guides are meant to be critiqued and improved upon. He has no intention of doing so - and that's the problem.
I don't even know why the thread hasn't been closed - the actual discussion has gone nowhere given the OP's reluctance to actually state why his way is superior to the already established build that I posted (and once again, that he posted a replay of).
On December 10 2014 09:28 Kharnage wrote: As a protoss in plat who was consistantly losing every single PvZ I switched to this build and now I'm doing a LOT better.
Note, I didn't read about this and then switch, I just wanted to be more aggressive because watching my replays, zergs were being SUPER greedy which ended in me dieing horribly.
The difference in my build is that I get my gates a bit sooner (2 gates on 12, cutting probes) and then chrono the first 3 zealots. IF an overlord scouts this I send them immediately and rally 2 more to their nat, resuming probe production and FFE to my nat. If the zerg hasn't sent their OL to my main ramp and scouted my gates then I'll wait for 5 zealots. In my opinion if you're going for a zealot rush intoi expand, commit to rushing those zealots out asap. Don't half arse a cheesy opening.
I'm well aware that I'm relying on the zerg being bad. Once or twice I've hit a zerg who built just enough defense and then immediately drones onto 3 bases, but it's pretty rare at my level.
my follow up is not a stargate voidrays however. I did this for a while and it felt really super coin flippy. If zerg gets extra queens you're dead. If they responsd with hydra you'll never hold the 3rd. Instead as soon as possible I get +1 attack, a m-core and 6 gates and go again with zealots. Behind that I'm putting down a robo and a stargate while taking a 3rd. When my zealots hit their 3rd I can see what units they are making. this allows me to commit hard to colossus, immortals or phoenix. By forcing an engagement on their side of the map I buy the time I need to make the units I need vs their chosen composition.
Something that the better players here might not realise is that at lower levels zerg players are TERRIBLE. So many times I see no creep spread and assume mutas and start getting phoenix only to get rolled by a late, off creep roach hydra push. Zergs regularly get all tech and then seem to roll the dice on what they build. Scouting a hydra den or a spire doesn't mean anything. They could literally be making anything. I've opened phoenix, killed 15 mutas only to have a zerg double down and just make more mutas. I've seen zergs open with a small roach hydra count and then go muta. Or swarm host. Or super fast hive, rushing for BL.
The point is that the only way to know what a zerg is doing down in shitty plat level is to attack them and see what they make. Either that or go for a middle of the road blink stalker colossus build that can sort of deal with everything, but I HATE stalkers. I hate them so much. Stupid pew pew unit.
12/12 gate is actually another relatively common variant of the now retired 2gate build. The big exception is that upon confirming that the Zerg did not open a quick speed build, you would pull 2-3 probes as well (slightly later than when the zealots move out given they are faster) to aid in a fight against the enemy. The timing works out that they can't engage you early on. This variant died out more so when the queen buff hit, but could still be useful. Something to consider if you like the more aggressive option, although clearly it's notably more "all-in" given you're pulling workers.
Biggest fear is that you had cut workers for 12/12, use all that chrono, but then fail to accomplish anything with it.
On December 10 2014 09:28 Kharnage wrote: As a protoss in plat who was consistantly losing every single PvZ I switched to this build and now I'm doing a LOT better.
Note, I didn't read about this and then switch, I just wanted to be more aggressive because watching my replays, zergs were being SUPER greedy which ended in me dieing horribly.
The difference in my build is that I get my gates a bit sooner (2 gates on 12, cutting probes) and then chrono the first 3 zealots. IF an overlord scouts this I send them immediately and rally 2 more to their nat, resuming probe production and FFE to my nat. If the zerg hasn't sent their OL to my main ramp and scouted my gates then I'll wait for 5 zealots. In my opinion if you're going for a zealot rush intoi expand, commit to rushing those zealots out asap. Don't half arse a cheesy opening.
I'm well aware that I'm relying on the zerg being bad. Once or twice I've hit a zerg who built just enough defense and then immediately drones onto 3 bases, but it's pretty rare at my level.
my follow up is not a stargate voidrays however. I did this for a while and it felt really super coin flippy. If zerg gets extra queens you're dead. If they responsd with hydra you'll never hold the 3rd. Instead as soon as possible I get +1 attack, a m-core and 6 gates and go again with zealots. Behind that I'm putting down a robo and a stargate while taking a 3rd. When my zealots hit their 3rd I can see what units they are making. this allows me to commit hard to colossus, immortals or phoenix. By forcing an engagement on their side of the map I buy the time I need to make the units I need vs their chosen composition.
Something that the better players here might not realise is that at lower levels zerg players are TERRIBLE. So many times I see no creep spread and assume mutas and start getting phoenix only to get rolled by a late, off creep roach hydra push. Zergs regularly get all tech and then seem to roll the dice on what they build. Scouting a hydra den or a spire doesn't mean anything. They could literally be making anything. I've opened phoenix, killed 15 mutas only to have a zerg double down and just make more mutas. I've seen zergs open with a small roach hydra count and then go muta. Or swarm host. Or super fast hive, rushing for BL.
The point is that the only way to know what a zerg is doing down in shitty plat level is to attack them and see what they make. Either that or go for a middle of the road blink stalker colossus build that can sort of deal with everything, but I HATE stalkers. I hate them so much. Stupid pew pew unit.
12/12 gate is actually another relatively common variant of the now retired 2gate build. The big exception is that upon confirming that the Zerg did not open a quick speed build, you would pull 2-3 probes as well (slightly later than when the zealots move out given they are faster) to aid in a fight against the enemy. The timing works out that they can't engage you early on. This variant died out more so when the queen buff hit, but could still be useful. Something to consider if you like the more aggressive option, although clearly it's notably more "all-in" given you're pulling workers.
Biggest fear is that you had cut workers for 12/12, use all that chrono, but then fail to accomplish anything with it.
Yeah, it definitly HAS to do damage. just forcing units is good, but unless i get a queen or kill a bunch of drones i consider myself behind. If the zerg over reacts with too many lings then it's fine too since they can't break my wall with just lings.
On December 10 2014 13:49 Ignorant prodigy wrote: give it a rest
Give what a rest? this build, or pretty much this build with a slightly different tweak turned PvZ from by far my worst MU to one of my strongest. Glad to see I'm not the only one.
On December 10 2014 13:49 Ignorant prodigy wrote: give it a rest
Give what a rest? this build, or pretty much this build with a slightly different tweak turned PvZ from by far my worst MU to one of my strongest. Glad to see I'm not the only one.
On December 10 2014 09:28 Kharnage wrote: As a protoss in plat who was consistantly losing every single PvZ I switched to this build and now I'm doing a LOT better.
Note, I didn't read about this and then switch, I just wanted to be more aggressive because watching my replays, zergs were being SUPER greedy which ended in me dieing horribly.
The difference in my build is that I get my gates a bit sooner (2 gates on 12, cutting probes) and then chrono the first 3 zealots. IF an overlord scouts this I send them immediately and rally 2 more to their nat, resuming probe production and FFE to my nat. If the zerg hasn't sent their OL to my main ramp and scouted my gates then I'll wait for 5 zealots. In my opinion if you're going for a zealot rush intoi expand, commit to rushing those zealots out asap. Don't half arse a cheesy opening.
I'm well aware that I'm relying on the zerg being bad. Once or twice I've hit a zerg who built just enough defense and then immediately drones onto 3 bases, but it's pretty rare at my level.
my follow up is not a stargate voidrays however. I did this for a while and it felt really super coin flippy. If zerg gets extra queens you're dead. If they responsd with hydra you'll never hold the 3rd. Instead as soon as possible I get +1 attack, a m-core and 6 gates and go again with zealots. Behind that I'm putting down a robo and a stargate while taking a 3rd. When my zealots hit their 3rd I can see what units they are making. this allows me to commit hard to colossus, immortals or phoenix. By forcing an engagement on their side of the map I buy the time I need to make the units I need vs their chosen composition.
Something that the better players here might not realise is that at lower levels zerg players are TERRIBLE. So many times I see no creep spread and assume mutas and start getting phoenix only to get rolled by a late, off creep roach hydra push. Zergs regularly get all tech and then seem to roll the dice on what they build. Scouting a hydra den or a spire doesn't mean anything. They could literally be making anything. I've opened phoenix, killed 15 mutas only to have a zerg double down and just make more mutas. I've seen zergs open with a small roach hydra count and then go muta. Or swarm host. Or super fast hive, rushing for BL.
The point is that the only way to know what a zerg is doing down in shitty plat level is to attack them and see what they make. Either that or go for a middle of the road blink stalker colossus build that can sort of deal with everything, but I HATE stalkers. I hate them so much. Stupid pew pew unit.
12/12 gate is actually another relatively common variant of the now retired 2gate build. The big exception is that upon confirming that the Zerg did not open a quick speed build, you would pull 2-3 probes as well (slightly later than when the zealots move out given they are faster) to aid in a fight against the enemy. The timing works out that they can't engage you early on. This variant died out more so when the queen buff hit, but could still be useful. Something to consider if you like the more aggressive option, although clearly it's notably more "all-in" given you're pulling workers.
Biggest fear is that you had cut workers for 12/12, use all that chrono, but then fail to accomplish anything with it.
Yeah, it definitly HAS to do damage. just forcing units is good, but unless i get a queen or kill a bunch of drones i consider myself behind. If the zerg over reacts with too many lings then it's fine too since they can't break my wall with just lings.
I'd recommend on maps with smaller nat chokes (doesnt work on xel naga or metal, but will on maps like cloud kingdom and daybreak) to building your 12/12 gate at your nat. I'd recommend building the first gate and second gate at roughly the same time too since your probe is already down there, but it's not to critical. This way if they counter you, they cant pin you in your main, you're still free to expand.
On December 10 2014 09:28 Kharnage wrote: As a protoss in plat who was consistantly losing every single PvZ I switched to this build and now I'm doing a LOT better.
Note, I didn't read about this and then switch, I just wanted to be more aggressive because watching my replays, zergs were being SUPER greedy which ended in me dieing horribly.
The difference in my build is that I get my gates a bit sooner (2 gates on 12, cutting probes) and then chrono the first 3 zealots. IF an overlord scouts this I send them immediately and rally 2 more to their nat, resuming probe production and FFE to my nat. If the zerg hasn't sent their OL to my main ramp and scouted my gates then I'll wait for 5 zealots. In my opinion if you're going for a zealot rush intoi expand, commit to rushing those zealots out asap. Don't half arse a cheesy opening.
I'm well aware that I'm relying on the zerg being bad. Once or twice I've hit a zerg who built just enough defense and then immediately drones onto 3 bases, but it's pretty rare at my level.
my follow up is not a stargate voidrays however. I did this for a while and it felt really super coin flippy. If zerg gets extra queens you're dead. If they responsd with hydra you'll never hold the 3rd. Instead as soon as possible I get +1 attack, a m-core and 6 gates and go again with zealots. Behind that I'm putting down a robo and a stargate while taking a 3rd. When my zealots hit their 3rd I can see what units they are making. this allows me to commit hard to colossus, immortals or phoenix. By forcing an engagement on their side of the map I buy the time I need to make the units I need vs their chosen composition.
Something that the better players here might not realise is that at lower levels zerg players are TERRIBLE. So many times I see no creep spread and assume mutas and start getting phoenix only to get rolled by a late, off creep roach hydra push. Zergs regularly get all tech and then seem to roll the dice on what they build. Scouting a hydra den or a spire doesn't mean anything. They could literally be making anything. I've opened phoenix, killed 15 mutas only to have a zerg double down and just make more mutas. I've seen zergs open with a small roach hydra count and then go muta. Or swarm host. Or super fast hive, rushing for BL.
The point is that the only way to know what a zerg is doing down in shitty plat level is to attack them and see what they make. Either that or go for a middle of the road blink stalker colossus build that can sort of deal with everything, but I HATE stalkers. I hate them so much. Stupid pew pew unit.
12/12 gate is actually another relatively common variant of the now retired 2gate build. The big exception is that upon confirming that the Zerg did not open a quick speed build, you would pull 2-3 probes as well (slightly later than when the zealots move out given they are faster) to aid in a fight against the enemy. The timing works out that they can't engage you early on. This variant died out more so when the queen buff hit, but could still be useful. Something to consider if you like the more aggressive option, although clearly it's notably more "all-in" given you're pulling workers.
Biggest fear is that you had cut workers for 12/12, use all that chrono, but then fail to accomplish anything with it.
Yeah, it definitly HAS to do damage. just forcing units is good, but unless i get a queen or kill a bunch of drones i consider myself behind. If the zerg over reacts with too many lings then it's fine too since they can't break my wall with just lings.
I'd recommend on maps with smaller nat chokes (doesnt work on xel naga or metal, but will on maps like cloud kingdom and daybreak) to building your 12/12 gate at your nat. I'd recommend building the first gate and second gate at roughly the same time too since your probe is already down there, but it's not to critical. This way if they counter you, they cant pin you in your main, you're still free to expand.
Yeah, I did that for a while but occasionally it would lose me a game to something like a 7 pool. Ignorant is right in that if they are doing a super early pool you can just lose with that. being able to drop a pylon to complete my main ramp wall in has saved me when they have run past with 6 lings. Usually my zealots do so much damage in their base that i can win from there.
I find there isn't a 'lot' of difference so long as my 3rd pylon is on my nat ramp. I really want that cyber and forge up asap so I can use them to make the wall. The 'risk' there is that more important structures are vulnerable I guess. ideally I go pylon, forge, nexus, cannon, cyber, pylon with a zealot to block the gap. Even if my gateways are on the nat I still need to build all those buildings in pretty much that order.
On December 10 2014 13:49 Ignorant prodigy wrote: give it a rest
The exact type of attitude I'm talking about that makes this a terrible thread.
On December 10 2014 13:53 Kharnage wrote:
On December 10 2014 13:39 FabledIntegral wrote:
On December 10 2014 09:28 Kharnage wrote: As a protoss in plat who was consistantly losing every single PvZ I switched to this build and now I'm doing a LOT better.
Note, I didn't read about this and then switch, I just wanted to be more aggressive because watching my replays, zergs were being SUPER greedy which ended in me dieing horribly.
The difference in my build is that I get my gates a bit sooner (2 gates on 12, cutting probes) and then chrono the first 3 zealots. IF an overlord scouts this I send them immediately and rally 2 more to their nat, resuming probe production and FFE to my nat. If the zerg hasn't sent their OL to my main ramp and scouted my gates then I'll wait for 5 zealots. In my opinion if you're going for a zealot rush intoi expand, commit to rushing those zealots out asap. Don't half arse a cheesy opening.
I'm well aware that I'm relying on the zerg being bad. Once or twice I've hit a zerg who built just enough defense and then immediately drones onto 3 bases, but it's pretty rare at my level.
my follow up is not a stargate voidrays however. I did this for a while and it felt really super coin flippy. If zerg gets extra queens you're dead. If they responsd with hydra you'll never hold the 3rd. Instead as soon as possible I get +1 attack, a m-core and 6 gates and go again with zealots. Behind that I'm putting down a robo and a stargate while taking a 3rd. When my zealots hit their 3rd I can see what units they are making. this allows me to commit hard to colossus, immortals or phoenix. By forcing an engagement on their side of the map I buy the time I need to make the units I need vs their chosen composition.
Something that the better players here might not realise is that at lower levels zerg players are TERRIBLE. So many times I see no creep spread and assume mutas and start getting phoenix only to get rolled by a late, off creep roach hydra push. Zergs regularly get all tech and then seem to roll the dice on what they build. Scouting a hydra den or a spire doesn't mean anything. They could literally be making anything. I've opened phoenix, killed 15 mutas only to have a zerg double down and just make more mutas. I've seen zergs open with a small roach hydra count and then go muta. Or swarm host. Or super fast hive, rushing for BL.
The point is that the only way to know what a zerg is doing down in shitty plat level is to attack them and see what they make. Either that or go for a middle of the road blink stalker colossus build that can sort of deal with everything, but I HATE stalkers. I hate them so much. Stupid pew pew unit.
12/12 gate is actually another relatively common variant of the now retired 2gate build. The big exception is that upon confirming that the Zerg did not open a quick speed build, you would pull 2-3 probes as well (slightly later than when the zealots move out given they are faster) to aid in a fight against the enemy. The timing works out that they can't engage you early on. This variant died out more so when the queen buff hit, but could still be useful. Something to consider if you like the more aggressive option, although clearly it's notably more "all-in" given you're pulling workers.
Biggest fear is that you had cut workers for 12/12, use all that chrono, but then fail to accomplish anything with it.
Yeah, it definitly HAS to do damage. just forcing units is good, but unless i get a queen or kill a bunch of drones i consider myself behind. If the zerg over reacts with too many lings then it's fine too since they can't break my wall with just lings.
I'd recommend on maps with smaller nat chokes (doesnt work on xel naga or metal, but will on maps like cloud kingdom and daybreak) to building your 12/12 gate at your nat. I'd recommend building the first gate and second gate at roughly the same time too since your probe is already down there, but it's not to critical. This way if they counter you, they cant pin you in your main, you're still free to expand.
Yeah, I did that for a while but occasionally it would lose me a game to something like a 7 pool. Ignorant is right in that if they are doing a super early pool you can just lose with that. being able to drop a pylon to complete my main ramp wall in has saved me when they have run past with 6 lings. Usually my zealots do so much damage in their base that i can win from there.
I find there isn't a 'lot' of difference so long as my 3rd pylon is on my nat ramp. I really want that cyber and forge up asap so I can use them to make the wall. The 'risk' there is that more important structures are vulnerable I guess. ideally I go pylon, forge, nexus, cannon, cyber, pylon with a zealot to block the gap. Even if my gateways are on the nat I still need to build all those buildings in pretty much that order.
You should be able to hold off a 7pool fairly easily with this build assuming you scout it coming, although it is indeed better to have the gates in your main if facing this build specifically (or a 6pool). It may be easier to counter a 7pool at your main ramp, but it makes it notably harder to expand if the Zerg counters your zealots with speed. Typically if a Zerg scouts a 2gate, they will immediately take a gas to get speed ASAP, at least in higher levels.
You just continue to build your second pylon at the ramp as well, creating a single hex opening (or even better you can just wall off completely with a third gateway), depending how early you scout it. Also, depending on how it's going, you have the option to expand prior to getting gas/core, if you'd rather go that option.
I guess it really depends the frequency with which you experience early pools in plat and how early you scout with this build. Based on the build you just posted, it would be more optimal to simply build both the nexus and cyber prior to forge and cannon. Of course, this is entirely dependent on what the Zerg is doing and allows you to do, but being able to hold the Nexus and cyber without a forge is much easier with the existing gateway wall (can counter large amounts of lings with limited zealot numbers using the existing wall to limit surface area).
On December 10 2014 13:49 Ignorant prodigy wrote: give it a rest
The exact type of attitude I'm talking about that makes this a terrible thread.
On December 10 2014 13:53 Kharnage wrote:
On December 10 2014 13:39 FabledIntegral wrote:
On December 10 2014 09:28 Kharnage wrote: As a protoss in plat who was consistantly losing every single PvZ I switched to this build and now I'm doing a LOT better.
Note, I didn't read about this and then switch, I just wanted to be more aggressive because watching my replays, zergs were being SUPER greedy which ended in me dieing horribly.
The difference in my build is that I get my gates a bit sooner (2 gates on 12, cutting probes) and then chrono the first 3 zealots. IF an overlord scouts this I send them immediately and rally 2 more to their nat, resuming probe production and FFE to my nat. If the zerg hasn't sent their OL to my main ramp and scouted my gates then I'll wait for 5 zealots. In my opinion if you're going for a zealot rush intoi expand, commit to rushing those zealots out asap. Don't half arse a cheesy opening.
I'm well aware that I'm relying on the zerg being bad. Once or twice I've hit a zerg who built just enough defense and then immediately drones onto 3 bases, but it's pretty rare at my level.
my follow up is not a stargate voidrays however. I did this for a while and it felt really super coin flippy. If zerg gets extra queens you're dead. If they responsd with hydra you'll never hold the 3rd. Instead as soon as possible I get +1 attack, a m-core and 6 gates and go again with zealots. Behind that I'm putting down a robo and a stargate while taking a 3rd. When my zealots hit their 3rd I can see what units they are making. this allows me to commit hard to colossus, immortals or phoenix. By forcing an engagement on their side of the map I buy the time I need to make the units I need vs their chosen composition.
Something that the better players here might not realise is that at lower levels zerg players are TERRIBLE. So many times I see no creep spread and assume mutas and start getting phoenix only to get rolled by a late, off creep roach hydra push. Zergs regularly get all tech and then seem to roll the dice on what they build. Scouting a hydra den or a spire doesn't mean anything. They could literally be making anything. I've opened phoenix, killed 15 mutas only to have a zerg double down and just make more mutas. I've seen zergs open with a small roach hydra count and then go muta. Or swarm host. Or super fast hive, rushing for BL.
The point is that the only way to know what a zerg is doing down in shitty plat level is to attack them and see what they make. Either that or go for a middle of the road blink stalker colossus build that can sort of deal with everything, but I HATE stalkers. I hate them so much. Stupid pew pew unit.
12/12 gate is actually another relatively common variant of the now retired 2gate build. The big exception is that upon confirming that the Zerg did not open a quick speed build, you would pull 2-3 probes as well (slightly later than when the zealots move out given they are faster) to aid in a fight against the enemy. The timing works out that they can't engage you early on. This variant died out more so when the queen buff hit, but could still be useful. Something to consider if you like the more aggressive option, although clearly it's notably more "all-in" given you're pulling workers.
Biggest fear is that you had cut workers for 12/12, use all that chrono, but then fail to accomplish anything with it.
Yeah, it definitly HAS to do damage. just forcing units is good, but unless i get a queen or kill a bunch of drones i consider myself behind. If the zerg over reacts with too many lings then it's fine too since they can't break my wall with just lings.
I'd recommend on maps with smaller nat chokes (doesnt work on xel naga or metal, but will on maps like cloud kingdom and daybreak) to building your 12/12 gate at your nat. I'd recommend building the first gate and second gate at roughly the same time too since your probe is already down there, but it's not to critical. This way if they counter you, they cant pin you in your main, you're still free to expand.
Yeah, I did that for a while but occasionally it would lose me a game to something like a 7 pool. Ignorant is right in that if they are doing a super early pool you can just lose with that. being able to drop a pylon to complete my main ramp wall in has saved me when they have run past with 6 lings. Usually my zealots do so much damage in their base that i can win from there.
I find there isn't a 'lot' of difference so long as my 3rd pylon is on my nat ramp. I really want that cyber and forge up asap so I can use them to make the wall. The 'risk' there is that more important structures are vulnerable I guess. ideally I go pylon, forge, nexus, cannon, cyber, pylon with a zealot to block the gap. Even if my gateways are on the nat I still need to build all those buildings in pretty much that order.
You should be able to hold off a 7pool fairly easily with this build assuming you scout it coming, although it is indeed better to have the gates in your main if facing this build specifically (or a 6pool). It may be easier to counter a 7pool at your main ramp, but it makes it notably harder to expand if the Zerg counters your zealots with speed. Typically if a Zerg scouts a 2gate, they will immediately take a gas to get speed ASAP, at least in higher levels.
You just continue to build your second pylon at the ramp as well, creating a single hex opening (or even better you can just wall off completely with a third gateway), depending how early you scout it.
Also, depending on how it's going, you have the option to expand prior to getting gas/core, if you'd rather go that option.
I guess it really depends the frequency with which you experience early pools in plat and how early you scout with this build.
That's a good point. I'm actually skipping the scout until both gates are going up because of the economy hit i'm already taking by stopping probe production at 12 until that point.
The other consideration I've had is that zerg first OL usually goes tot he Nat, not the main ramp, so the opening is hidden for just a little bit longer if they are not drone scouting. I don't know if this really matters or not. I'll try out gateways on the nat and see if it feels better. if nothing else it has slightly less walk time for the zealots i guess...
Putting the gateways at your main ramp is much safer IMO. The build doesn't get sentries so you need some sort of wall.
Pooling the Zealots also confuses the Zerg a bit. If they see Zealots trickling in they know what's up (and in low numbers Zealots are much less effective against a group of lings that can get a better surround). If they don't scout / react wrong to the pooling (assume you're bad or playing very defensive or something) then they just get wrecked.
On December 10 2014 14:52 FabledIntegral wrote:although it is indeed better to have the gates in your main if facing this build specifically (or a 6pool). It may be easier to counter a 7pool at your main ramp
which is exactly why I pool the zealots.. it's considerably easier to get the natural up if they get speed if you hold the zealots back
I also mentioned early pool as part of my reason for making the gates in my main back on page 3
also building the gate at the natural is a bad idea IMO.. if they early pool (with or w/o speed) you could get fucked by losing the pylon etc.. the distance to pull probe to protect it is very far and not worth it.
walling your main ramp is essential and saved me a few times from early pools.
On December 10 2014 14:52 FabledIntegral wrote:although it is indeed better to have the gates in your main if facing this build specifically (or a 6pool). It may be easier to counter a 7pool at your main ramp
which is exactly why I pool the zealots.. it's considerably easier to get the natural up if they get speed if you hold the zealots back
That makes no sense. It takes exactly 1 zealot to hold a 7 pool, you don't need to "pool" more than 1 zealot, which is hardly any pooling at all. Also, if you're probe scouting like you are then you will be able to tell if it's a 7 pool or not a lot earlier than when you have 5 zealots, so there's basically never any reason to pool to 5.
I also mentioned early pool as part of my reason for making the gates in my main back on page 3
7 pool will still probably lose even to gates in the natural, so gates in the natural are probably better on average.
also building the gate at the natural is a bad idea IMO.. if they early pool (with or w/o speed) you could get fucked by losing the pylon etc.. the distance to pull probe to protect it is very far and not worth it.
No you don't, your probe will see their lings, then you pull probes to defend pylon and block the ramp as your first zealot comes out, then you win unless you lost a lot of probes which you probably won't unless you fuck up royally, or the map makes it really difficult to defend the pylon and the ramp simultaneously.
Dude, seriously stop defending the dogmatic errors that you've made in developing this build. You made a topic regarding a build, people are chipping in advice of a better way to do exactly the same thing. It's time to edit the thread, or get someone to lock it so that we can have a real discussion on 2 gate before gas pvz opening.
Pooling the Zealots also confuses the Zerg a bit. If they see Zealots trickling in they know what's up (and in low numbers Zealots are much less effective against a group of lings that can get a better surround). If they don't scout / react wrong to the pooling (assume you're bad or playing very defensive or something) then they just get wrecked.
No it doesn't. The scouting drone or overlord see the 2 gateways and know there's no stalker any time soon, so the overlord gets parked right on top of it and the zerg literally sees everything, including when the gateways are and aren't producing units, so the zerg always knows exactly how many zealots there are total.
I guess I don't see it as an error.. rather a preference
I also don't think you read my response correctly. I pool the zealots not to hold a 6 or 7 pool but to be able to take my natural as I move out. I build my gates at the top of my main ramp to hold the potential 6 or 7 pool easier.
One is a consequence of the other.. if I built my gates at my natural then sure I could get my natural up w/o needing to pool the zealots.. but since I prefer to build my gates at my main ramp vs. my natural to make defending a 6 or 7 pool easier, then it would get considerably harder to take my natural if I sent the zealots 1 by 1. Especially if the zerg gets speed.
I'll exit this thread if the OP can admit the GM replay he posted is nearly identical of what I recommended he could do to significantly improve his build. At the very least we can stop saying "it's been proven in GM."
Beyond that, it's become quite apparent there is no rebuttal beyond "I prefer it my way."
All I have to say is that you are denying advice from players that are better than you. By saying your methods are better you are indirectly stating that you know better. Knowing how hard this game is to get good at, lower level players even saying they have a reason to do something that their superior said isn't good is insulting.
EPT
