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Please don't go calling people racist, misogynists, or any combination therein. Don't start throwing around words like "white Knight" or SJW, these words are at this point used in a derogatory manner regarding this debate. You can discuss that these terms exist, but do not attribute them to any individual user or group of users on this website.
Try to have a serious discussion about the topic at hand without resorting to personal attacks and we will all be the better for it. Breaking this rule will result in an automatic temp ban the length of which will depend on the comment you make.
This thread started not so bad. It is getting worse. If you want to have this discussion on TL be respectful of your fellow users, we all live in the same house.
Effective now: Page 21 October 18th 08:31 KST |
So I truly hope this thread doesn't get closed. I read Breaker's post about Gamergate that just recently was closed, and wrote a long response. By the time I could publish my reply, TL mods closed it.
Prior to seeing this thread, I had no idea what gamergate was, so I followed the link provided and read the article. It mentioned "Zoe Quinn". I heard about the name "Zoe Quinn" but I never bothered to search out who is she, until now. I was curious, so I continued to do some research.
It seems this gamergate started when accusations that developers were buying articles from journalists to promote games in advertorials, but disguised as editorials. A lot of people got upset, and most of them were men. This lead to death threats to females in the gaming industry like Zoe Quinn.
Now Zoe Quinn is being targeted specifically because rumors grew that she had slept with a video game journalist, in return the game she was involved in developing would receive praise.
So it seems gamergate started when rumors sprouted of corrupt journalists receiving paychecks or handjobs for positive reviews. Because there was a female involved in these rumors, some sexist men took this as an opportunity to lash out at these women.
So it seems that the original intent of gamergate was to stamp out the corruption in video game journalism, but was contorted by sexist and misogynist men into a tool for threats and harassment, by a fucking rumor.
Breaker, I know you mean well when you posted the closed thread, and I appreciate you sharing this. However, I was hoping you would have provided more content for me to digest. It took me a very long time to search and understand gamergate, and I am sure I still know a lot less.
It isn't just about harassment and sexist threats, but also about advocating for honest journalism. Its unfortunate that the noble goal of honesty is maligned into death threats and sexist remarks.
I don't want to start a full discussion, because a lot has already been said, but if someone wants to add more to my comments, I would gladly hope I could learn more.
So, do you truly know what gamergate is? I don't, and I have many questions.
If TL mods also want to close this thread, I can accept that.
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after reading your post all i can think of is that female journalists/devs have an unfair advantage here. i mean, what are men supposed to do?; because i fail to see how offering handjobs would get them somewhere.
User was warned for this post
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On October 15 2014 16:33 xM(Z wrote:
after reading your post all i can think of is that female journalists/devs have an unfair advantage here. i mean, what are men supposed to do?; because i fail to see how offering handjobs would get them somewhere.
Well the rumor was that sexual favor from a female developer was offered to a male journalist in return for favourable reviews.
Remember this is all rumors. The heart of the problem lies not within the sexes, but in honesty in journalism, which is taught in every journalist class.
I don't know what you mean by "unfair advantage." I see no advantage on either sides of the sex. I mean a male developer could be offering an undisclosed sum of money to a male journalist for favourable reviews, and it would still amount to the same corruption.
The outrage grew when this form of corruption incorporated a male and female counterpart. Now we have male gamers lashing out at females in the gaming industry, meanwhile female feminists are accusing all male gamers as being misogynistic assholes that want gaming to stay in the "old boys club".
Things have gotten out of hand, and its hard to discern a possible solution.
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This thread is going to suck
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On October 15 2014 16:43 Jaaaaasper wrote:
This thread is going to suck
I truly hope not. What do you know about this gamergate fiasco?
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On October 15 2014 16:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
A similar thread got closed literally like 30 minutes ago.
If you read my thread, I addressed closed thread. I wanted to just start a more meaningful discussion. That thread offered little information, and was thusly closed. I want to create a discussion.
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On October 15 2014 16:48 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 16:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
A similar thread got closed literally like 30 minutes ago. If you read my thread, I addressed closed thread. I wanted to just start a more meaningful discussion. That thread offered little information, and was thusly closed. I want to create a discussion.
I saw it mate and I understand you. I'm just apprehensive of what the Red Hammer Gods will do with this thread :o.
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On October 15 2014 16:49 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 16:48 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On October 15 2014 16:47 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
A similar thread got closed literally like 30 minutes ago. If you read my thread, I addressed closed thread. I wanted to just start a more meaningful discussion. That thread offered little information, and was thusly closed. I want to create a discussion. I saw it mate. I'm just apprehensive of what the Red Hammer Gods will do with this thread :o.
It hasn't been closed yet. What do you know/understand of this gamergate? Can you add more or your opinion?
And sorry about the "if you read my thread". That can sound kind rude.
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On October 15 2014 16:40 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 16:33 xM(Z wrote:
after reading your post all i can think of is that female journalists/devs have an unfair advantage here. i mean, what are men supposed to do?; because i fail to see how offering handjobs would get them somewhere. Well the rumor was that sexual favor from a female developer was offered to a male journalist in return for favourable reviews. Remember this is all rumors. The heart of the problem lies not within the sexes, but in honesty in journalism, which is taught in every journalist class. I don't know what you mean by "unfair advantage." I see no advantage on either sides of the sex.
if a male dev would offer sexual favors to a male journalist, would he(allegedly) get an article about his work published?.
the gaming industry is vastly male dominated (at least in numbers) so a woman would be spoiled for choices.
i don't think i can ever see this about right and wrong, moral or immoral. i see it as not fair/not equal at most and the side with less bargaining chips but more numbers lashes out because the competition is rigged.
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I haven't followed things. I know of it. My basic understanding is girl makes unremarkable game, girl fucks journalists, girls game is suddenly the talk of the town on gaming sites. I think anyone will admit that's pretty messed up to get publicity through sexual favors, but it's nothing new. She doesn't deserve death threats, but if she did actually do that I see nothing wrong with it being exposed along with the journalists who received sexual favors for positive publicity of her game.
The bigger issue is gaming journalism as a whole. When you can blow a person/company literally or figuratively for a positive review journalistic integrity has gone out the window. It doesn't matter if its a hand job or the laughable reviews IGN is known for, none of it is objective honest reporting, which I'm fairly sure is the entire point of journalism.
The moral of the story is people need to quit with the bullshit. No advanced copies unless you give us a 9/10, I'll suck your dick for a good review, Anita Sarkeesian making outlandish claims about games/gamers. The BS has to stop, people need to be called out on their shit and own up to it instead of being professional victims. Get the people who are poison out. I don't really expect that to happen though so...
But threats don't help anything. I don't want people assuming just because I want whistles blown and people to be dragged through the mud and chastised for BS to imply that I'm cool with rape or death threats.
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On October 15 2014 16:40 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
The heart of the problem lies not within the sexes, but in honesty in journalism, which is taught in every journalist class.
it seems rather hard to identify a singular base problem given how this developed (hell, half the stuff I've seen on the topic is titled some variant of "this is what gamergate is really about", and yes, I clicked almost every time tt)
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On October 15 2014 16:53 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 16:40 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On October 15 2014 16:33 xM(Z wrote:
after reading your post all i can think of is that female journalists/devs have an unfair advantage here. i mean, what are men supposed to do?; because i fail to see how offering handjobs would get them somewhere. Well the rumor was that sexual favor from a female developer was offered to a male journalist in return for favourable reviews. Remember this is all rumors. The heart of the problem lies not within the sexes, but in honesty in journalism, which is taught in every journalist class. I don't know what you mean by "unfair advantage." I see no advantage on either sides of the sex. if a male dev would offer sexual favors to a male journalist, would he(allegedly) get an article about his work published?. the gaming industry is vastly male dominated (at least in numbers) so a woman would be spoiled for choices. i don't think i can ever see this about right and wrong, moral or immoral. i see it as not fair/not equal at most and the side with less bargaining chips but more numbers lashes out because the competition is rigged.
So you feel there is an advantage females have in this industry? They are a minority, and do possess certain advantages because of their lack of presence, but its not to the point where every female game developer is whoring themselves out to gaming outlets across the internet.
And the rumors were proven false. Zoe Quinn did not trade sexual favors for praised reviews. At least that is what I found doing a google search.
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On October 15 2014 16:58 dangthatsright wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 16:40 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
The heart of the problem lies not within the sexes, but in honesty in journalism, which is taught in every journalist class. it seems rather hard to identify a singular base problem given how this developed (hell, half the stuff I've seen on the topic is titled some variant of "this is what gamergate is really about", and yes, I clicked almost every time tt)
I only heard of this nonsense today, after the closed post, but have recently read a lot. I was hoping others could add their opinions so I can gain another perspective.
I too have read those topic titles, but they are usually written from one side of the coin.
Its difficult to gain an unbiased discussion on it because essentially it boils down to a battle of the sexes, and between males and females discussions can easily turn into heated debates.
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On October 15 2014 16:56 OuchyDathurts wrote:
I haven't followed things. I know of it. My basic understanding is girl makes unremarkable game, girl fucks journalists, girls game is suddenly the talk of the town on gaming sites. I think anyone will admit that's pretty messed up to get publicity through sexual favors, but it's nothing new. She doesn't deserve death threats, but if she did actually do that I see nothing wrong with it being exposed along with the journalists who received sexual favors for positive publicity of her game.
The bigger issue is gaming journalism as a whole. When you can blow a person/company literally or figuratively for a positive review journalistic integrity has gone out the window. It doesn't matter if its a hand job or the laughable reviews IGN is known for, none of it is objective honest reporting, which I'm fairly sure is the entire point of journalism.
The moral of the story is people need to quit with the bullshit. No advanced copies unless you give us a 9/10, I'll suck your dick for a good review, Anita Sarkeesian making outlandish claims about games/gamers. The BS has to stop, people need to be called out on their shit and own up to it instead of being professional victims. Get the people who are poison out. I don't really expect that to happen though so...
But threats don't help anything. I don't want people assuming just because I want whistles blown and people to be dragged through the mud and chastised for BS to imply that I'm cool with rape or death threats.
So you know about as much as I do, and have a similar perspective as mine.
I agree, we need the gaming outlets to be more honest, but this industry is still young. I am sure during cinema movies first inception, the critics were being paid to write "rave reviews" on nearly every movie. Paying news media for favourable articles is not new, and many industries do it. Hollywood probably still does it, but I have no proof just my hunch.
It just feels like it runs rampant in the gaming industry because its relatively young. The attention gaming has garnered in the last five years has grown exponentially. This leads to opportunistic people seeking an easy method to manipulate the media to attain a favourable brand.
User was warned for this post
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On October 15 2014 17:00 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 16:53 xM(Z wrote:On October 15 2014 16:40 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On October 15 2014 16:33 xM(Z wrote:
after reading your post all i can think of is that female journalists/devs have an unfair advantage here. i mean, what are men supposed to do?; because i fail to see how offering handjobs would get them somewhere. Well the rumor was that sexual favor from a female developer was offered to a male journalist in return for favourable reviews. Remember this is all rumors. The heart of the problem lies not within the sexes, but in honesty in journalism, which is taught in every journalist class. I don't know what you mean by "unfair advantage." I see no advantage on either sides of the sex. if a male dev would offer sexual favors to a male journalist, would he(allegedly) get an article about his work published?. the gaming industry is vastly male dominated (at least in numbers) so a woman would be spoiled for choices. i don't think i can ever see this about right and wrong, moral or immoral. i see it as not fair/not equal at most and the side with less bargaining chips but more numbers lashes out because the competition is rigged. So you feel there is an advantage females have in this industry? They are a minority, and do possess certain advantages because of their lack of presence, but its not to the point where every female game developer is whoring themselves out to gaming outlets across the internet. And the rumors were proven false. Zoe Quinn did not trade sexual favors for praised reviews. At least that is what I found doing a google search.
the hypothetical of something will always outweigh the factual.
get used to seeing this kind of smear more often as men+women=equal equation, gets more mainstreamed.
or, do you think male devs, prior to this, have never bribed male journalists to get articles published?; give me a break.
they just can't compete with what a female has to offer.
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On October 15 2014 17:12 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 17:00 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On October 15 2014 16:53 xM(Z wrote:On October 15 2014 16:40 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On October 15 2014 16:33 xM(Z wrote:
after reading your post all i can think of is that female journalists/devs have an unfair advantage here. i mean, what are men supposed to do?; because i fail to see how offering handjobs would get them somewhere. Well the rumor was that sexual favor from a female developer was offered to a male journalist in return for favourable reviews. Remember this is all rumors. The heart of the problem lies not within the sexes, but in honesty in journalism, which is taught in every journalist class. I don't know what you mean by "unfair advantage." I see no advantage on either sides of the sex. if a male dev would offer sexual favors to a male journalist, would he(allegedly) get an article about his work published?. the gaming industry is vastly male dominated (at least in numbers) so a woman would be spoiled for choices. i don't think i can ever see this about right and wrong, moral or immoral. i see it as not fair/not equal at most and the side with less bargaining chips but more numbers lashes out because the competition is rigged. So you feel there is an advantage females have in this industry? They are a minority, and do possess certain advantages because of their lack of presence, but its not to the point where every female game developer is whoring themselves out to gaming outlets across the internet. And the rumors were proven false. Zoe Quinn did not trade sexual favors for praised reviews. At least that is what I found doing a google search. the hypothetical of something will always outweigh the factual. get used to seeing this kind of smear more often as men+women=equal equation, gets more mainstreamed. or, do you think male devs, prior to this, have never bribed male journalists to get articles published?; give me a break. they just can't compete with what a female has to offer.
Of course male devs bribed male journalists. Bribery seeps into any industry, especially when billions can be made on a videogame. Do you feel there is a difference when sexual favor is offered on the table? I don't.
Either way its deplorable. If it is true that Zoe Quinn used sex as a bargaining chip, I would view her reputation through tarnished goggles, but no less if it was a monetary value instead of a one night stand.
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You've outlined the genesis of the controversy; however, I'd say it has since metastasized into a monster of its own. I would suggest reading through the following articles to get a better grip on the scandal, the people involved, and what has been happening more recently.
Gamergate Explained
That being said, if gamergate was really about ethics, the main female targets wouldn't be going through what they are going through. Plenty of communities experience ethical debates or even scandals without those at the center of the debates being forced from their homes
Misogyny and Gamergate
Which isn't to say that there are legitimate ethical concerns in the gaming journalism industry. It's just that most of them don't involve gender or sexual favors. If you're interested in learning about some of those concerns, check out this:
List of Ethical Concerns in Videogaming
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On October 15 2014 17:10 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 16:56 OuchyDathurts wrote:
I haven't followed things. I know of it. My basic understanding is girl makes unremarkable game, girl fucks journalists, girls game is suddenly the talk of the town on gaming sites. I think anyone will admit that's pretty messed up to get publicity through sexual favors, but it's nothing new. She doesn't deserve death threats, but if she did actually do that I see nothing wrong with it being exposed along with the journalists who received sexual favors for positive publicity of her game.
The bigger issue is gaming journalism as a whole. When you can blow a person/company literally or figuratively for a positive review journalistic integrity has gone out the window. It doesn't matter if its a hand job or the laughable reviews IGN is known for, none of it is objective honest reporting, which I'm fairly sure is the entire point of journalism.
The moral of the story is people need to quit with the bullshit. No advanced copies unless you give us a 9/10, I'll suck your dick for a good review, Anita Sarkeesian making outlandish claims about games/gamers. The BS has to stop, people need to be called out on their shit and own up to it instead of being professional victims. Get the people who are poison out. I don't really expect that to happen though so...
But threats don't help anything. I don't want people assuming just because I want whistles blown and people to be dragged through the mud and chastised for BS to imply that I'm cool with rape or death threats. So you know about as much as I do, and have a similar perspective as mine. I agree, we need the gaming outlets to be more honest, but this industry is still young. I am sure during cinema movies first inception, the critics were being paid to write "rave reviews" on nearly every movie. Paying news media for favourable articles is not new, and many industries do it. Hollywood probably still does it, but I have no proof just my hunch. It just feels like it runs rampant in the gaming industry because its relatively young. The attention gaming has garnered in the last five years has grown exponentially. This leads to opportunistic people seeking an easy method to manipulate the media to attain a favourable brand.
Really all journalism disciplines have a problem right now. Everyone can have a blog and pretend to be a journalist without any of the morals or integrity necessary. You have "legitimate" news sources that are heavily slanted offering literally no objectivity at all. You have news sources just flat out making shit up. News sources putting out opinions disguised as facts. News sources that are purely click bait. So it's not exclusively a problem of gaming journalism.
Gaming journalism is relatively new. The people who read it tend to be on the younger savvier side of things. They tend to be younger, and current younger generations have this sort of "don't bullshit me" mentality. So maybe we call stuff out more, maybe we want some notion of "justice" more, I don't know. I don't think we're quite as inclined as older generations to just take shit sitting down from our news...hopefully. But this shit is rampant in all aspects of journalism, maybe it's just wishful thinking that we might push back in this one little regard. But it's a giant beast with many heads in all of journalism so I don't know that I can realistically see it going anywhere.
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On October 15 2014 17:18 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 17:12 xM(Z wrote:On October 15 2014 17:00 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On October 15 2014 16:53 xM(Z wrote:On October 15 2014 16:40 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On October 15 2014 16:33 xM(Z wrote:
after reading your post all i can think of is that female journalists/devs have an unfair advantage here. i mean, what are men supposed to do?; because i fail to see how offering handjobs would get them somewhere. Well the rumor was that sexual favor from a female developer was offered to a male journalist in return for favourable reviews. Remember this is all rumors. The heart of the problem lies not within the sexes, but in honesty in journalism, which is taught in every journalist class. I don't know what you mean by "unfair advantage." I see no advantage on either sides of the sex. if a male dev would offer sexual favors to a male journalist, would he(allegedly) get an article about his work published?. the gaming industry is vastly male dominated (at least in numbers) so a woman would be spoiled for choices. i don't think i can ever see this about right and wrong, moral or immoral. i see it as not fair/not equal at most and the side with less bargaining chips but more numbers lashes out because the competition is rigged. So you feel there is an advantage females have in this industry? They are a minority, and do possess certain advantages because of their lack of presence, but its not to the point where every female game developer is whoring themselves out to gaming outlets across the internet. And the rumors were proven false. Zoe Quinn did not trade sexual favors for praised reviews. At least that is what I found doing a google search. the hypothetical of something will always outweigh the factual. get used to seeing this kind of smear more often as men+women=equal equation, gets more mainstreamed. or, do you think male devs, prior to this, have never bribed male journalists to get articles published?; give me a break. they just can't compete with what a female has to offer. Of course male devs bribed male journalists. Bribery seeps into any industry, especially when billions can be made on a videogame. Do you feel there is a difference when sexual favor is offered on the table? I don't.
are you a male? or, have you seen a male journalist?; or worse, a developer?. an offer like that would probably be the best thing he's had in his entire life.
irl > morality
Edit: to your edit: i agree with the first sentence but after that you're just being dishonest because you don't factor in the competitive nature of this, where the one with more to offer will always get the deal.
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EPT
