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This is just a reminder that the Crimea referendum falls on that argument too.
Just gets conveniently ignored. And if you call people out on it, they just ignore the subject and ask "do you really think they don't want to join russia?".
Still waiting on a source for "suppressing the Russian language for the ethnic Russian population" of LegalLord.
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On March 17 2014 05:40 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Seems like, Crimea is now Russian subject.
Tons of problems, hello.
More taxes, hello.
Crimean kids in universities for free - hello.
Oh fuck.
At least i can go to Crimea now and not be fucked by borders securities because i'm not looking like as in passport.
The part where parts of crimea only get electricity and other utilities from mainland ukraine, and only land route out of crimea is thought mainland ukraine.
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The people have decided. Honestly you can repeat the vote numerous times and the result will always be pretty much the same because Russians are ethnic majority in Crimea. We should respect their decision even if we don't agree with it and countries from other continents should stop interfering when this is none of their business.
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On March 17 2014 05:48 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:44 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 05:41 zeo wrote:On March 17 2014 05:35 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 05:33 zeo wrote:On March 17 2014 05:28 m4ini wrote:On March 17 2014 05:25 zeo wrote:
Congratulations to the people of Crimea, over 93% of the 80% that went to vote are against the self proclaimed government in Kiev. Flamebating should be a bannable offense. Just putting that out there. In other news Serbia is fucked for the next 4-5 years. Why? Didnt the party that you are member of implode? Or do you think the new government will re-take national press as they did under Milosevic? All the idiots and leeches in the party broke off and took half our votes, and are now courting Vucic who has around 50% of the vote in the parliamentary elections. It is a realistic possibility that the only opposition in the country will have 6% of the vote in parliament. Vucic already has most of the press under his boot. will he suspend EU integration? You keep calling them euro-taleban and whatnot but I am pretty sure the Germans have had enough populists no? And then wont he just lose support because of it? He can do whatever the fuck he wants now, more than 80% of parliament will be under his control.
But do you think he will just say "Okay, this democracy stuff was fun, but now its back to me saying anything I want."
I am trying to understand since the party you are with, they held majorities too no and they didnt just make themselves a one party state, was that just because of the more pro-democratic norms or because its harder to go back to Milosevic style now after ~ 14 years of more or less multi party politics?
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On March 17 2014 05:49 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:40 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Seems like, Crimea is now Russian subject.
Tons of problems, hello.
More taxes, hello.
Crimean kids in universities for free - hello.
Oh fuck.
At least i can go to Crimea now and not be fucked by borders securities because i'm not looking like as in passport.
The part where parts of crimea only get electricity and other utilities from mainland ukraine, and only land route out of crimea is thought mainland ukraine.
Its cool, Russia is already planning a bridge to connect it to the Russian mainland.
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On March 17 2014 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:49 semantics wrote:On March 17 2014 05:40 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Seems like, Crimea is now Russian subject.
Tons of problems, hello.
More taxes, hello.
Crimean kids in universities for free - hello.
Oh fuck.
At least i can go to Crimea now and not be fucked by borders securities because i'm not looking like as in passport.
The part where parts of crimea only get electricity and other utilities from mainland ukraine, and only land route out of crimea is thought mainland ukraine. Its cool, Russia is already planning a bridge to connect it to the Russian mainland.
As if they knew the outcome beforehand. Whuey democracy.
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On March 17 2014 05:50 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
The people have decided. Honestly you can repeat the vote numerous times and the result will always be pretty much the same because Russians are ethnic majority in Crimea. We should respect their decision even if we don't agree with it and countries from other continents should stop interfering when this is none of their business.
Never knew that the Russians were over 90% of the Crimea population.
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On March 17 2014 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:49 semantics wrote:On March 17 2014 05:40 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Seems like, Crimea is now Russian subject.
Tons of problems, hello.
More taxes, hello.
Crimean kids in universities for free - hello.
Oh fuck.
At least i can go to Crimea now and not be fucked by borders securities because i'm not looking like as in passport.
The part where parts of crimea only get electricity and other utilities from mainland ukraine, and only land route out of crimea is thought mainland ukraine. Its cool, Russia is already planning a bridge to connect it to the Russian mainland.
Russian tax payers are the most generous tax payers in the world. 51 billion for two one time events. 15 billion a year to Ramzan Kadyrov so he can build Europe's biggest mosque, now 3-5 billion a year to Crimea.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 17 2014 05:49 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:40 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Seems like, Crimea is now Russian subject.
Tons of problems, hello.
More taxes, hello.
Crimean kids in universities for free - hello.
Oh fuck.
At least i can go to Crimea now and not be fucked by borders securities because i'm not looking like as in passport.
The part where parts of crimea only get electricity and other utilities from mainland ukraine, and only land route out of crimea is thought mainland ukraine.
Honestly, i don't think that's really a problem.
At least, if Putin is completely lazy, Gazprom always can make some discounts for Ukraine and they will provide everything still. But i don't think, Crimeans are ok with amount of help from Ukranian government, so our elite will find out how to help.
On March 17 2014 05:52 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:50 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
The people have decided. Honestly you can repeat the vote numerous times and the result will always be pretty much the same because Russians are ethnic majority in Crimea. We should respect their decision even if we don't agree with it and countries from other continents should stop interfering when this is none of their business. Never knew that the Russians were over 90% of the Crimea population.
Referendum never works in way "99% can vote yes but if 1% votes no, we will fail".
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On March 17 2014 05:43 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:40 Ghanburighan wrote:Turnout was 82.17% Now that 50% is counted, 95% in favour of option 1. SourceHaha, they are catching up to North Korea :D I'm curious: do you seriously believe that Crimea isn't in favor of returning to Russia?
This is entirely irrelevant, but to satiate your curiosity, I do not think so. Less than 60% are ethnically Russian there, if you discount Russian soldiers, etc., you get an even smaller number. And just being of Russian ethnicity does not guarantee that they want to join Russia; if you look at Donetsk, or Kharkiv, recent polls show that they are not in favour of Putin's incursion into Crimea. This is corroborated by my own friends in the Eastern Ukraine. They like being Russian, but they don't want to live in Russia.
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On March 17 2014 05:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:05 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 04:46 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 03:57 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 02:53 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 00:41 nunez wrote:On March 16 2014 16:22 Sub40APM wrote:
....what? Since its independence in 1991, the American people have supported Ukraine’s transition to democracy and a free market economy with over $5 billion in assistance. srcOn March 16 2014 16:56 semantics wrote:
Conspiracy crap taking really out of context words into suggesting money the US foreign aid and investments over the year somehow equates to money used for a coup. By that shitty out of context not factually backed up logic Putin was offering the yanukovych Ukraine "assistance" money only to take Ukraine into Russia as a puppet state of moscow. Because apparently all you have to do is take words out of context and spew random crap for it to be true. As if a person would flaunt CIA involvement for a speech at a nonprofit event. thinking this skrill isn't spent empowering whatever political party that is willing to bend over for it (in this case the opposition) and labelling it as 'conspiracy crap' is dellusional. why do you think f.ex NED-money is flowing into ukraine? charity work? boy scouts? NED was founded in 1983 at the initiative of Cold War hardliners in the Reagan administration, including then-CIA Director William J. Casey. Essentially, NED took over what had been the domain of the CIA, i.e. funneling money to support foreign political movements that would take the U.S. side against the Soviet Union. src Which one of your sources proves that the US has built up the Right Sector using 5 billion dollars, I might need a bit more hand holding than a link showing that the US spends money on foreign aid -- Canada does too, where are their fascists coups ? -- and the right sector. I'd also like some evidence showing that the national endowment for democracy's programs to strengthen things like rule of law or freedom of expression translated into fascist coups, perhaps one that doesnt make unsubstantiated claim that the NED caused the coup or that relies on who the founders of the NED were to prove NED is forever tainted by evil. NED's raison d'être seems to be empowering foreign groups that will allow american vampires, not commie vampires, to extract precious bodily fluids from their countries. far-right and fascists definately fits the bill in ukraine (or usually in general). you don't think NED money is included in the 5 billion figure? Are you being serious here or edgy? both. This indicates that NED may be using its grant making program to help open foreign markets to U.S. companies that were previously closed and to help promote the U.S.’s geopolitical and economic interests by financially supporting its military and economic partners.
...
This research does not find evidence that NED was successful at promoting democracy and economic freedom during the 1990s src Calling people vampires has a long and distinguished history with a certain set of people, nunez is just unconsciously carrying on a fine blood-soaked tradition dating back over a thousand years. The particular one he's consciously carrying on is over a hundred years old and was and is one of the favorite insults of a certain globally failed and murderous ideology. How calling people vampires accomplishes anything but self-satisfaction at being "edgy" is a mystery, but that is the point isn't it.
what do your posts accomplish do you think? self-satisfaction probably right? whatever floats your boat imo, it's good imagery.
On March 17 2014 05:20 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:05 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 04:46 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 03:57 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 02:53 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 00:41 nunez wrote:On March 16 2014 16:22 Sub40APM wrote:
....what? Since its independence in 1991, the American people have supported Ukraine’s transition to democracy and a free market economy with over $5 billion in assistance. srcOn March 16 2014 16:56 semantics wrote:
Conspiracy crap taking really out of context words into suggesting money the US foreign aid and investments over the year somehow equates to money used for a coup. By that shitty out of context not factually backed up logic Putin was offering the yanukovych Ukraine "assistance" money only to take Ukraine into Russia as a puppet state of moscow. Because apparently all you have to do is take words out of context and spew random crap for it to be true. As if a person would flaunt CIA involvement for a speech at a nonprofit event. thinking this skrill isn't spent empowering whatever political party that is willing to bend over for it (in this case the opposition) and labelling it as 'conspiracy crap' is dellusional. why do you think f.ex NED-money is flowing into ukraine? charity work? boy scouts? NED was founded in 1983 at the initiative of Cold War hardliners in the Reagan administration, including then-CIA Director William J. Casey. Essentially, NED took over what had been the domain of the CIA, i.e. funneling money to support foreign political movements that would take the U.S. side against the Soviet Union. src Which one of your sources proves that the US has built up the Right Sector using 5 billion dollars, I might need a bit more hand holding than a link showing that the US spends money on foreign aid -- Canada does too, where are their fascists coups ? -- and the right sector. I'd also like some evidence showing that the national endowment for democracy's programs to strengthen things like rule of law or freedom of expression translated into fascist coups, perhaps one that doesnt make unsubstantiated claim that the NED caused the coup or that relies on who the founders of the NED were to prove NED is forever tainted by evil. NED's raison d'être seems to be empowering foreign groups that will allow american vampires, not commie vampires, to extract precious bodily fluids from their countries. far-right and fascists definately fits the bill in ukraine (or usually in general). you don't think NED money is included in the 5 billion figure? Are you being serious here or edgy? both. This indicates that NED may be using its grant making program to help open foreign markets to U.S. companies that were previously closed and to help promote the U.S.’s geopolitical and economic interests by financially supporting its military and economic partners.
...
This research does not find evidence that NED was successful at promoting democracy and economic freedom during the 1990s src Did you even read your source or did it come up through a quick google search? Ill put it below the fold if you care, but the actual thing you cite paints a pretty contradictory picture, one that stands in contrast to the assured and unsubstantiated tone of the original article you posted as evidence that NED was a vehicle through which 5 billion dollars was funneled to the right sector by America + Show Spoiler +Even though NED grant money appears to have been appropriately awarded to countries based on their
need, the grant money did not have a significant impact on political and economic freedom. This calls into question the wisdom of using the U.S. government’s scarce resources to promote democracy and economic freedom – not only through NED, but in any similar manner. The thesis is against all American foreign aid. Officially, the U.S. government was neutral about the Chilean plebiscite, but it
recognized that the plebiscite was an opportunity for Chile to take a large step toward
democracy. Seizing the moment, the U.S. became involved in Chile through NED. From
its own funds, NED sent $600,000 to opposition groups in Chile. Many of these groups
were reluctant to accept the money because they were uncomfortable using foreign
money to influence Chile’s domestic politics. However, most groups did eventually
accept the money because they recognized that their chances of winning without it were
unlikely (Christian 15 June 1988, A1). Congress later gave NED another $1 million to
distribute in Chile. Pinochet’s government made U.S. support for its opposition a central
campaign issue, but was unable to win the plebiscite (Christian 15 June 1988, A14).
NED supports pro-Democracy, anti-Military government forces in Chile -- you know, the military dictatorship they helped to create in the first place --- In reaction to the Clinton administration’s request, the House voted to eliminate
all funding for NED by a vote of 243-181 (Corn 1993b, 57; Doherty 1993, 1672).
NED’s defeat in the House was bipartisan – two-thirds of Republicans and a slight
36
majority of Democrats voted for its elimination NED appears not to be a tool the government actual wants... Critics have described NED as a “political sacred cow” (Corn 1997, 27), valued
as a source of pork-barrel projects and lavish political junkets abroad for Washington’s
elites (Carothers 1994, 123; Corn 1992, 648). These elites include high-level
“Republican and Democratic party activists, conservative trade unionists, and free
marketeers” who use the organization to further their own agendas (Corn 1993b, 57).
Critics further allege that NED provides its spoils systematically in an attempt to gain
friends that can help it politically (Samuels 1995, 53). In essence, the elites use NED for
generous perks, and the organization uses the elites for political gain and protection. This
type of “inside-the-beltway political logrolling,” according to critics, makes it the type of
program that needs to be abolished (Conry 1994, 16). or it turns out NED is some sort of corruption mechanism inside DC without any actual foreign interests at all Look at his top recipients, Ukraine received less money than Poland, Russia and China and slightly more than Cuba and Romania
i think you are confused. nobody is saying 5 billion dollars was funelled through NED, but feel free to make the case that the NED's spending in ukraine is not included in that figure, in which case i'll hapilly add the two together for you and we can use this instead for how much money us is spending on shaping ukraine.
the paper corroborates both the robert parry article(~ cold war relic fund that generally supports a neocon agenda often at cross-purposes with the Obama administration’s foreign policy) and xM(Z's claim that ukraine's right are able to throw their weight around because of it (the right of ukraine aligns with this agenda). even the very parts you cherrypicked yourself corroborate this.
or it turns out NED is some sort of corruption mechanism inside DC without any actual foreign interests at all
yep, you're really confused.
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On March 17 2014 05:50 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:48 zeo wrote:On March 17 2014 05:44 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 05:41 zeo wrote:On March 17 2014 05:35 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 05:33 zeo wrote:On March 17 2014 05:28 m4ini wrote:On March 17 2014 05:25 zeo wrote:
Congratulations to the people of Crimea, over 93% of the 80% that went to vote are against the self proclaimed government in Kiev. Flamebating should be a bannable offense. Just putting that out there. In other news Serbia is fucked for the next 4-5 years. Why? Didnt the party that you are member of implode? Or do you think the new government will re-take national press as they did under Milosevic? All the idiots and leeches in the party broke off and took half our votes, and are now courting Vucic who has around 50% of the vote in the parliamentary elections. It is a realistic possibility that the only opposition in the country will have 6% of the vote in parliament. Vucic already has most of the press under his boot. will he suspend EU integration? You keep calling them euro-taleban and whatnot but I am pretty sure the Germans have had enough populists no? And then wont he just lose support because of it? He can do whatever the fuck he wants now, more than 80% of parliament will be under his control. But do you think he will just say "Okay, this democracy stuff was fun, but now its back to me saying anything I want." I am trying to understand since the party you are with, they held majorities too no and they didnt just make themselves a one party state, was that just because of the more pro-democratic norms or because its harder to go back to Milosevic style now after ~ 14 years of more or less multi party politics?
Whatever majority we had was useless because we had to form a coalition with the devil, interestingly enough the ones that formed the coalition are the same guys that broke away and formed their own party.
Erdogan got 49.8% of the vote in Turkey and look at how their euro-integration is going. Don't get me wrong, we will be kissing Euro's ass for the whole mandate and we will make great strides towards the EU... but under the surface this will be a dictatorship.
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On March 17 2014 05:57 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:52 Gorsameth wrote:On March 17 2014 05:50 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
The people have decided. Honestly you can repeat the vote numerous times and the result will always be pretty much the same because Russians are ethnic majority in Crimea. We should respect their decision even if we don't agree with it and countries from other continents should stop interfering when this is none of their business. Never knew that the Russians were over 90% of the Crimea population. Referendum never works in way "99% can vote yes but if 1% votes no, we will fail".
Check the turn out %. check how many of em vote Yes.
Now check how much % of the Crimea population that would be if they were all Russians?
Ty for understanding my point now.
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Russian Federation117 Posts
On March 17 2014 05:57 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:43 LegalLord wrote:On March 17 2014 05:40 Ghanburighan wrote:Turnout was 82.17% Now that 50% is counted, 95% in favour of option 1. SourceHaha, they are catching up to North Korea :D I'm curious: do you seriously believe that Crimea isn't in favor of returning to Russia? This is entirely irrelevant, but to satiate your curiosity, I do not think so. Less than 60% are ethnically Russian there, if you discount Russian soldiers, etc., you get an even smaller number. And just being of Russian ethnicity does not guarantee that they want to join Russia; if you look at Donetsk, or Kharkiv, recent polls show that they are not in favour of Putin's incursion into Crimea. This is corroborated by my own friends in the Eastern Ukraine. They like being Russian, but they don't want to live in Russia.
Sure thing, they ALL are in favor of Russia. Russia is giving them 1 billion $$$. Ukraine gives them utter shit.
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Constitutions? Independence? Elections? Democracies? Invasion? Terrorizing the citizens?
Really, west, it's pretty old to base your argument on such "formalities" when you act no different on your backyard.
Anyway i hope the best for the people at Crimea, despite the barks after some time the outcome will silently get recognized and people will move on.
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On March 17 2014 05:40 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Seems like, Crimea is now Russian subject.
Tons of problems, hello.
More taxes, hello.
Crimean kids in universities for free - hello.
Oh fuck.
At least i can go to Crimea now and not be fucked by borders securities because i'm not looking like as in passport.
Don't worry, I don't think that Kremlin will annex the Crimea, at least not in the near future. It has now become a huge bargain/blackmail card in any talks with Kiev.
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On March 17 2014 06:00 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 17 2014 05:05 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 04:46 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 03:57 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 02:53 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 00:41 nunez wrote:On March 16 2014 16:22 Sub40APM wrote:
....what? Since its independence in 1991, the American people have supported Ukraine’s transition to democracy and a free market economy with over $5 billion in assistance. srcOn March 16 2014 16:56 semantics wrote:
Conspiracy crap taking really out of context words into suggesting money the US foreign aid and investments over the year somehow equates to money used for a coup. By that shitty out of context not factually backed up logic Putin was offering the yanukovych Ukraine "assistance" money only to take Ukraine into Russia as a puppet state of moscow. Because apparently all you have to do is take words out of context and spew random crap for it to be true. As if a person would flaunt CIA involvement for a speech at a nonprofit event. thinking this skrill isn't spent empowering whatever political party that is willing to bend over for it (in this case the opposition) and labelling it as 'conspiracy crap' is dellusional. why do you think f.ex NED-money is flowing into ukraine? charity work? boy scouts? NED was founded in 1983 at the initiative of Cold War hardliners in the Reagan administration, including then-CIA Director William J. Casey. Essentially, NED took over what had been the domain of the CIA, i.e. funneling money to support foreign political movements that would take the U.S. side against the Soviet Union. src Which one of your sources proves that the US has built up the Right Sector using 5 billion dollars, I might need a bit more hand holding than a link showing that the US spends money on foreign aid -- Canada does too, where are their fascists coups ? -- and the right sector. I'd also like some evidence showing that the national endowment for democracy's programs to strengthen things like rule of law or freedom of expression translated into fascist coups, perhaps one that doesnt make unsubstantiated claim that the NED caused the coup or that relies on who the founders of the NED were to prove NED is forever tainted by evil. NED's raison d'être seems to be empowering foreign groups that will allow american vampires, not commie vampires, to extract precious bodily fluids from their countries. far-right and fascists definately fits the bill in ukraine (or usually in general). you don't think NED money is included in the 5 billion figure? Are you being serious here or edgy? both. This indicates that NED may be using its grant making program to help open foreign markets to U.S. companies that were previously closed and to help promote the U.S.’s geopolitical and economic interests by financially supporting its military and economic partners.
...
This research does not find evidence that NED was successful at promoting democracy and economic freedom during the 1990s src Calling people vampires has a long and distinguished history with a certain set of people, nunez is just unconsciously carrying on a fine blood-soaked tradition dating back over a thousand years. The particular one he's consciously carrying on is over a hundred years old and was and is one of the favorite insults of a certain globally failed and murderous ideology. How calling people vampires accomplishes anything but self-satisfaction at being "edgy" is a mystery, but that is the point isn't it. what do your posts accomplish do you think? self-satisfaction maybe? Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:20 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 05:05 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 04:46 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 03:57 nunez wrote:On March 17 2014 02:53 Sub40APM wrote:On March 17 2014 00:41 nunez wrote:On March 16 2014 16:22 Sub40APM wrote:
....what? Since its independence in 1991, the American people have supported Ukraine’s transition to democracy and a free market economy with over $5 billion in assistance. srcOn March 16 2014 16:56 semantics wrote:
Conspiracy crap taking really out of context words into suggesting money the US foreign aid and investments over the year somehow equates to money used for a coup. By that shitty out of context not factually backed up logic Putin was offering the yanukovych Ukraine "assistance" money only to take Ukraine into Russia as a puppet state of moscow. Because apparently all you have to do is take words out of context and spew random crap for it to be true. As if a person would flaunt CIA involvement for a speech at a nonprofit event. thinking this skrill isn't spent empowering whatever political party that is willing to bend over for it (in this case the opposition) and labelling it as 'conspiracy crap' is dellusional. why do you think f.ex NED-money is flowing into ukraine? charity work? boy scouts? NED was founded in 1983 at the initiative of Cold War hardliners in the Reagan administration, including then-CIA Director William J. Casey. Essentially, NED took over what had been the domain of the CIA, i.e. funneling money to support foreign political movements that would take the U.S. side against the Soviet Union. src Which one of your sources proves that the US has built up the Right Sector using 5 billion dollars, I might need a bit more hand holding than a link showing that the US spends money on foreign aid -- Canada does too, where are their fascists coups ? -- and the right sector. I'd also like some evidence showing that the national endowment for democracy's programs to strengthen things like rule of law or freedom of expression translated into fascist coups, perhaps one that doesnt make unsubstantiated claim that the NED caused the coup or that relies on who the founders of the NED were to prove NED is forever tainted by evil. NED's raison d'être seems to be empowering foreign groups that will allow american vampires, not commie vampires, to extract precious bodily fluids from their countries. far-right and fascists definately fits the bill in ukraine (or usually in general). you don't think NED money is included in the 5 billion figure? Are you being serious here or edgy? both. This indicates that NED may be using its grant making program to help open foreign markets to U.S. companies that were previously closed and to help promote the U.S.’s geopolitical and economic interests by financially supporting its military and economic partners.
...
This research does not find evidence that NED was successful at promoting democracy and economic freedom during the 1990s src Did you even read your source or did it come up through a quick google search? Ill put it below the fold if you care, but the actual thing you cite paints a pretty contradictory picture, one that stands in contrast to the assured and unsubstantiated tone of the original article you posted as evidence that NED was a vehicle through which 5 billion dollars was funneled to the right sector by America + Show Spoiler +Even though NED grant money appears to have been appropriately awarded to countries based on their
need, the grant money did not have a significant impact on political and economic freedom. This calls into question the wisdom of using the U.S. government’s scarce resources to promote democracy and economic freedom – not only through NED, but in any similar manner. The thesis is against all American foreign aid. Officially, the U.S. government was neutral about the Chilean plebiscite, but it
recognized that the plebiscite was an opportunity for Chile to take a large step toward
democracy. Seizing the moment, the U.S. became involved in Chile through NED. From
its own funds, NED sent $600,000 to opposition groups in Chile. Many of these groups
were reluctant to accept the money because they were uncomfortable using foreign
money to influence Chile’s domestic politics. However, most groups did eventually
accept the money because they recognized that their chances of winning without it were
unlikely (Christian 15 June 1988, A1). Congress later gave NED another $1 million to
distribute in Chile. Pinochet’s government made U.S. support for its opposition a central
campaign issue, but was unable to win the plebiscite (Christian 15 June 1988, A14).
NED supports pro-Democracy, anti-Military government forces in Chile -- you know, the military dictatorship they helped to create in the first place --- In reaction to the Clinton administration’s request, the House voted to eliminate
all funding for NED by a vote of 243-181 (Corn 1993b, 57; Doherty 1993, 1672).
NED’s defeat in the House was bipartisan – two-thirds of Republicans and a slight
36
majority of Democrats voted for its elimination NED appears not to be a tool the government actual wants... Critics have described NED as a “political sacred cow” (Corn 1997, 27), valued
as a source of pork-barrel projects and lavish political junkets abroad for Washington’s
elites (Carothers 1994, 123; Corn 1992, 648). These elites include high-level
“Republican and Democratic party activists, conservative trade unionists, and free
marketeers” who use the organization to further their own agendas (Corn 1993b, 57).
Critics further allege that NED provides its spoils systematically in an attempt to gain
friends that can help it politically (Samuels 1995, 53). In essence, the elites use NED for
generous perks, and the organization uses the elites for political gain and protection. This
type of “inside-the-beltway political logrolling,” according to critics, makes it the type of
program that needs to be abolished (Conry 1994, 16). or it turns out NED is some sort of corruption mechanism inside DC without any actual foreign interests at all Look at his top recipients, Ukraine received less money than Poland, Russia and China and slightly more than Cuba and Romania i think you are confused. nobody is saying 5 billion dollars was funelled through NED, but feel free to make the case that the NED's spending in ukraine is not included in that figure,
Well his original claim was that 5 billion was spent by the US to create neo-nazis, so I am still waiting for support for that argument.
the paper corroborates both the robert parry article(~ cold war relic fund that generally supports a neocon agenda often at cross-purposes with the Obama administration’s foreign policy)
All it corroborates from the Parry article was that its inception the NED was filled with Reagen types.
and xM(Z's claim that ukraine's right are able to throw their weight around because of it (the right of ukraine aligns with this agenda).
There is 0 support in the paper you quoted for this claim. All it shows is that Ukraine receives money from NED. Neither the right sector nor Svoboda are mentioned in the paper, and neither were relevant until the late 2000s, Your paper covers a period between 1990 and 1999 when Ukraine was dominated by Kuchma, an authoritarian pragmatist who at best was neutral if not outright Russian leaning.
Finally, the paper you cited comes to the conclusion that this help is mostly useless and a waste of American tax payers money and all foreign aid that look to build democratic institutions should be cut.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 17 2014 06:01 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:57 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On March 17 2014 05:52 Gorsameth wrote:On March 17 2014 05:50 rudimentalfeelthelov wrote:
The people have decided. Honestly you can repeat the vote numerous times and the result will always be pretty much the same because Russians are ethnic majority in Crimea. We should respect their decision even if we don't agree with it and countries from other continents should stop interfering when this is none of their business. Never knew that the Russians were over 90% of the Crimea population. Referendum never works in way "99% can vote yes but if 1% votes no, we will fail". Check the turn out %. check how many of em vote Yes. Now check how much % of the Crimea population that would be if they were all Russians? Ty for understanding my point now.
You can't falsify 93%.
Classic amount of falsificated votes almost never goes up more than 10% and it's absolute rare occassion as i was told by political strategists before last elections where i worked in Navalny's headquarter.
So, even if we go for EIGHTY PERCENT, it's already ridiculous number which can only say that majority of Crimea's population who came to elections and not muttoned somewhere wanted to be part of Russia.
Btw, what was the appearance?
I can hardly surf something now because my mind is still blown by 30STM concert, sorry.
On March 17 2014 06:08 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 05:40 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Seems like, Crimea is now Russian subject.
Tons of problems, hello.
More taxes, hello.
Crimean kids in universities for free - hello.
Oh fuck.
At least i can go to Crimea now and not be fucked by borders securities because i'm not looking like as in passport.
Don't worry, I don't think that Kremlin will annex the Crimea, at least not in the near future. It has now became a huge bargain/blackmail card in any talks with Kiev.
At least i'm changing my passport this year LOL.
To be completely honest i agree, nothing is crystal right now.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
It's fucking North Korea, i was speaking about countries with intelligent leaders.
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