On November 07 2013 08:55 neptunusfisk wrote: But most of rape cases happen in situations where you wouldn't prepare for it, e.g. in relationships
Didn't the World Health Organization figure out that its about 70%-80% a spouse or significant other that does the rape and not a stranger?
So? That can mean all sort of things...
Maybe women spend significantly more time with their spouse or significant other than with strangers. Maybe women are more cautious around strangers and have gotten rather good at circumventing dangerous situations. Maybe women are more likely to be raped when they let their guard down. Maybe rapists are more eager to target victims they know. Maybe rapists are more eager to target victims with whom they have an intimate relationship. Maybe rapists are acting upon opportunities. ...
It's one thing to collect some numbers, but unless you control for a whole lot of different factors that might or might not play into this, I find it awfully hard to take anything away from this that could be considered even remotely insightful.
I'm sure the World Health Organization are a bunch of lazy fucks who don't care about their findings.
Glad we agree on that.
Hahaha wasn't expecting that comeback line hahahaha. You really have a point.
to keep the price of this very sophisticated garment as low as possible it'll be manufactured in rural chinese factories where 8 year old slaves assemble them for $0.14/hour.
Because clothing can't make people do things... committing rape is an action taken by a person. There is no justifiable provocation for murder or rape among other things.
Justifiable or not, don't you think that someone is capable of provoking another into murder? Though it is probably a culmination of many things, just as rape probably has a number of causes leading up to it.
Some other key points would be that (on a society wide level) many countries where women are socially forced to completely cover themselves experience a lot of sex crime. mind you they still manage to blame it on them for showing off their ankles etc. that lying slut. Additionally the kind of rapist that rapes a stranger is not a significant percentage, and if that person is looking/hunting for some cue then someone better warn women not to smile at strangers.
Thanks that's the kind of explanation I was looking for, although I'll take it on faith that you are getting this information from credible sources.
I picked up the vibe your putting down of the guy who totally hates rape but isn't it possible we can blame the victim just a little? but I have to ask; why?? You say we can't just blame the victim or the rapist (lol like that was a hard choice) and wash our hands clean but I don't think we are washing our hands after we blame the rapist. we would just work harder to make less rapists in the future. Most men manage to control themselves all the time. Many men enjoy looking at sexily dressed sexy ladies. You ask for sources but you provide no evidence that scantily clad women contribute to an increase in rape. You are making the positive assertion. And you are mistaken.
I don't understand getting so hung up on blame. Rape is a violent crime, and it should be punished as such. Does blaming harder help to stop rape? I was not making an empirical assertion but a logical argument. I'm having a hard time following yours. Many men control themselves, many men enjoy looking at scantily clad women... therefore?
There're many different situations that can lead to raping. This product will not magically cover all of them. What it can cover is, the situations as described. People who think the product is useless because it doesn't cover cases they say are just.....
Because clothing can't make people do things... committing rape is an action taken by a person. There is no justifiable provocation for murder or rape among other things.
Justifiable or not, don't you think that someone is capable of provoking another into murder? Though it is probably a culmination of many things, just as rape probably has a number of causes leading up to it.
Some other key points would be that (on a society wide level) many countries where women are socially forced to completely cover themselves experience a lot of sex crime. mind you they still manage to blame it on them for showing off their ankles etc. that lying slut. Additionally the kind of rapist that rapes a stranger is not a significant percentage, and if that person is looking/hunting for some cue then someone better warn women not to smile at strangers.
Thanks that's the kind of explanation I was looking for, although I'll take it on faith that you are getting this information from credible sources.
I picked up the vibe your putting down of the guy who totally hates rape but isn't it possible we can blame the victim just a little? but I have to ask; why?? You say we can't just blame the victim or the rapist (lol like that was a hard choice) and wash our hands clean but I don't think we are washing our hands after we blame the rapist. we would just work harder to make less rapists in the future. Most men manage to control themselves all the time. Many men enjoy looking at sexily dressed sexy ladies. You ask for sources but you provide no evidence that scantily clad women contribute to an increase in rape. You are making the positive assertion. And you are mistaken.
I don't understand getting so hung up on blame. Rape is a violent crime, and it should be punished as such. Does blaming harder help to stop rape? I was not making an empirical assertion but a logical argument. I'm having a hard time following yours. Many men control themselves, many men enjoy looking at scantily clad women... therefore?
Please stop classifying Rape as a violent crime. Rape is a sexual crime.
Because clothing can't make people do things... committing rape is an action taken by a person. There is no justifiable provocation for murder or rape among other things.
Justifiable or not, don't you think that someone is capable of provoking another into murder? Though it is probably a culmination of many things, just as rape probably has a number of causes leading up to it.
Some other key points would be that (on a society wide level) many countries where women are socially forced to completely cover themselves experience a lot of sex crime. mind you they still manage to blame it on them for showing off their ankles etc. that lying slut. Additionally the kind of rapist that rapes a stranger is not a significant percentage, and if that person is looking/hunting for some cue then someone better warn women not to smile at strangers.
Thanks that's the kind of explanation I was looking for, although I'll take it on faith that you are getting this information from credible sources.
I picked up the vibe your putting down of the guy who totally hates rape but isn't it possible we can blame the victim just a little? but I have to ask; why?? You say we can't just blame the victim or the rapist (lol like that was a hard choice) and wash our hands clean but I don't think we are washing our hands after we blame the rapist. we would just work harder to make less rapists in the future. Most men manage to control themselves all the time. Many men enjoy looking at sexily dressed sexy ladies. You ask for sources but you provide no evidence that scantily clad women contribute to an increase in rape. You are making the positive assertion. And you are mistaken.
I don't understand getting so hung up on blame. Rape is a violent crime, and it should be punished as such. Does blaming harder help to stop rape? I was not making an empirical assertion but a logical argument. I'm having a hard time following yours. Many men control themselves, many men enjoy looking at scantily clad women... therefore?
Please stop classifying Rape as a violent crime. Rape is a sexual crime.
Because clothing can't make people do things... committing rape is an action taken by a person. There is no justifiable provocation for murder or rape among other things.
Justifiable or not, don't you think that someone is capable of provoking another into murder? Though it is probably a culmination of many things, just as rape probably has a number of causes leading up to it.
Some other key points would be that (on a society wide level) many countries where women are socially forced to completely cover themselves experience a lot of sex crime. mind you they still manage to blame it on them for showing off their ankles etc. that lying slut. Additionally the kind of rapist that rapes a stranger is not a significant percentage, and if that person is looking/hunting for some cue then someone better warn women not to smile at strangers.
Thanks that's the kind of explanation I was looking for, although I'll take it on faith that you are getting this information from credible sources.
I picked up the vibe your putting down of the guy who totally hates rape but isn't it possible we can blame the victim just a little? but I have to ask; why?? You say we can't just blame the victim or the rapist (lol like that was a hard choice) and wash our hands clean but I don't think we are washing our hands after we blame the rapist. we would just work harder to make less rapists in the future. Most men manage to control themselves all the time. Many men enjoy looking at sexily dressed sexy ladies. You ask for sources but you provide no evidence that scantily clad women contribute to an increase in rape. You are making the positive assertion. And you are mistaken.
I don't understand getting so hung up on blame. Rape is a violent crime, and it should be punished as such. Does blaming harder help to stop rape? I was not making an empirical assertion but a logical argument. I'm having a hard time following yours. Many men control themselves, many men enjoy looking at scantily clad women... therefore?
Please stop classifying Rape as a violent crime. Rape is a sexual crime.
Why can't it be both?
It is a inaccurate representation of the crime. In several different instances violence never occurs during a rape. Rape is most commonly induced by drugging, cohesion, or an trusted authority figure abusing his power. Saying a crime that centers around sex is a violent crime is unconscionable.
People who say rape is a violent crime remind me of this:
On November 07 2013 08:23 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:48 ComaDose wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:46 Mothra wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:41 ComaDose wrote: "Wearing provocative clothing ... just as valid to label contributing causes of rape"
seeee there is rape culture everywhere you just need to know how to spot it.
Are you going to share the reason it is not valid, or is your reason just rape culture full stop? If you can explain in plain English I'll be happy to listen.
Because wearing provocative clothing is not at all a contributing factor to rape and to suggest so shifts the blame from the rapist to the victim. almost as obvious of a case i can think of. i.e. telling women they can't dress a certain way or they risk getting raped is not okay.
Wearing provocative clothing makes you look prettier. Looking prettier makes you more likely to get raped. Basic logic. The point of contention isn't whether or not provocative clothing makes you more likely to be raped, that isn't even slightly contestable, the point of contention here is whether or not one should blame women for getting raped for doing things that increase their likelihood of getting raped, which as a corollary effect makes people sympathize less with the woman who just got raped.
And people shouldn't blame women. But they do. hence, problem.
As much as people blame women, they do it happens it sucks, people blame the rapist a lot more. I don't see the woman standing trial and being thrown in jail for 20+ years. Now sometimes there isn't enough evidence to actually reach a guilty verdict which is sometimes because the man didn't rape the woman. This is the correct verdict if he is actually innocent. A lot of issue arises because you don't need a witness or strong forensic evidence to go to trial in a rape case so it catches a lot of media attention regardless of whether the man is guilty or not. If the man is guilty he should go to jail, if he is innocent he should stay free and not have his name dragged through the mud.
Because clothing can't make people do things... committing rape is an action taken by a person. There is no justifiable provocation for murder or rape among other things.
Justifiable or not, don't you think that someone is capable of provoking another into murder? Though it is probably a culmination of many things, just as rape probably has a number of causes leading up to it.
Some other key points would be that (on a society wide level) many countries where women are socially forced to completely cover themselves experience a lot of sex crime. mind you they still manage to blame it on them for showing off their ankles etc. that lying slut. Additionally the kind of rapist that rapes a stranger is not a significant percentage, and if that person is looking/hunting for some cue then someone better warn women not to smile at strangers.
Thanks that's the kind of explanation I was looking for, although I'll take it on faith that you are getting this information from credible sources.
I picked up the vibe your putting down of the guy who totally hates rape but isn't it possible we can blame the victim just a little? but I have to ask; why?? You say we can't just blame the victim or the rapist (lol like that was a hard choice) and wash our hands clean but I don't think we are washing our hands after we blame the rapist. we would just work harder to make less rapists in the future. Most men manage to control themselves all the time. Many men enjoy looking at sexily dressed sexy ladies. You ask for sources but you provide no evidence that scantily clad women contribute to an increase in rape. You are making the positive assertion. And you are mistaken.
I don't understand getting so hung up on blame. Rape is a violent crime, and it should be punished as such. Does blaming harder help to stop rape? I was not making an empirical assertion but a logical argument. I'm having a hard time following yours. Many men control themselves, many men enjoy looking at scantily clad women... therefore?
Please stop classifying Rape as a violent crime. Rape is a sexual crime.
Look at Mr. Lawyerman here with his semantics.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation disagrees with you though. Check it.
Because clothing can't make people do things... committing rape is an action taken by a person. There is no justifiable provocation for murder or rape among other things.
Justifiable or not, don't you think that someone is capable of provoking another into murder? Though it is probably a culmination of many things, just as rape probably has a number of causes leading up to it.
Some other key points would be that (on a society wide level) many countries where women are socially forced to completely cover themselves experience a lot of sex crime. mind you they still manage to blame it on them for showing off their ankles etc. that lying slut. Additionally the kind of rapist that rapes a stranger is not a significant percentage, and if that person is looking/hunting for some cue then someone better warn women not to smile at strangers.
Thanks that's the kind of explanation I was looking for, although I'll take it on faith that you are getting this information from credible sources.
I picked up the vibe your putting down of the guy who totally hates rape but isn't it possible we can blame the victim just a little? but I have to ask; why?? You say we can't just blame the victim or the rapist (lol like that was a hard choice) and wash our hands clean but I don't think we are washing our hands after we blame the rapist. we would just work harder to make less rapists in the future. Most men manage to control themselves all the time. Many men enjoy looking at sexily dressed sexy ladies. You ask for sources but you provide no evidence that scantily clad women contribute to an increase in rape. You are making the positive assertion. And you are mistaken.
I don't understand getting so hung up on blame. Rape is a violent crime, and it should be punished as such. Does blaming harder help to stop rape? I was not making an empirical assertion but a logical argument. I'm having a hard time following yours. Many men control themselves, many men enjoy looking at scantily clad women... therefore?
Please stop classifying Rape as a violent crime. Rape is a sexual crime.
Look at Mr. Lawyerman here with his semantics.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation disagrees with you though. Check it.
Thousands of years of biological anthropology disagree with this abstract human construct. Since the Paleolithic Era, women would form emotional bonds with their abuser (i.e. Stockholm Syndrome) all the time. Sexual attraction, sex and rape are so closely related. Oxytoxin is a helluva drug.
Because clothing can't make people do things... committing rape is an action taken by a person. There is no justifiable provocation for murder or rape among other things.
Justifiable or not, don't you think that someone is capable of provoking another into murder? Though it is probably a culmination of many things, just as rape probably has a number of causes leading up to it.
Some other key points would be that (on a society wide level) many countries where women are socially forced to completely cover themselves experience a lot of sex crime. mind you they still manage to blame it on them for showing off their ankles etc. that lying slut. Additionally the kind of rapist that rapes a stranger is not a significant percentage, and if that person is looking/hunting for some cue then someone better warn women not to smile at strangers.
Thanks that's the kind of explanation I was looking for, although I'll take it on faith that you are getting this information from credible sources.
I picked up the vibe your putting down of the guy who totally hates rape but isn't it possible we can blame the victim just a little? but I have to ask; why?? You say we can't just blame the victim or the rapist (lol like that was a hard choice) and wash our hands clean but I don't think we are washing our hands after we blame the rapist. we would just work harder to make less rapists in the future. Most men manage to control themselves all the time. Many men enjoy looking at sexily dressed sexy ladies. You ask for sources but you provide no evidence that scantily clad women contribute to an increase in rape. You are making the positive assertion. And you are mistaken.
I don't understand getting so hung up on blame. Rape is a violent crime, and it should be punished as such. Does blaming harder help to stop rape? I was not making an empirical assertion but a logical argument. I'm having a hard time following yours. Many men control themselves, many men enjoy looking at scantily clad women... therefore?
Please stop classifying Rape as a violent crime. Rape is a sexual crime.
Look at Mr. Lawyerman here with his semantics.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation disagrees with you though. Check it.
Thousands of years of biological anthropology disagree. Since the Paleolithic Era, women would form emotional bonds with their abuser (i.e. Stockholm Syndrome) all the time. Sexual attraction, sex and rape are so closely related. Oxytoxin is a helluva drug.
Try using that argument in any courtroom or any kind of moderated debate. Biological anthropology didn't even exist until the 18th century, and just because some victims bond with the perpetrators doesn't mean that most of them do.
But yeah, I'm not sure what he meant by "Oxytoxin is a helluva drug". In fact, I'm not sure what anyone here is arguing about. Rape is really wrong and people should not rape each other. I don't think this product will really do anything, it seems to be more of a fear-management item as opposed to a danger-management product, but to each his (or her) own.
Because clothing can't make people do things... committing rape is an action taken by a person. There is no justifiable provocation for murder or rape among other things.
Justifiable or not, don't you think that someone is capable of provoking another into murder? Though it is probably a culmination of many things, just as rape probably has a number of causes leading up to it.
Some other key points would be that (on a society wide level) many countries where women are socially forced to completely cover themselves experience a lot of sex crime. mind you they still manage to blame it on them for showing off their ankles etc. that lying slut. Additionally the kind of rapist that rapes a stranger is not a significant percentage, and if that person is looking/hunting for some cue then someone better warn women not to smile at strangers.
Thanks that's the kind of explanation I was looking for, although I'll take it on faith that you are getting this information from credible sources.
I picked up the vibe your putting down of the guy who totally hates rape but isn't it possible we can blame the victim just a little? but I have to ask; why?? You say we can't just blame the victim or the rapist (lol like that was a hard choice) and wash our hands clean but I don't think we are washing our hands after we blame the rapist. we would just work harder to make less rapists in the future. Most men manage to control themselves all the time. Many men enjoy looking at sexily dressed sexy ladies. You ask for sources but you provide no evidence that scantily clad women contribute to an increase in rape. You are making the positive assertion. And you are mistaken.
I don't understand getting so hung up on blame. Rape is a violent crime, and it should be punished as such. Does blaming harder help to stop rape? I was not making an empirical assertion but a logical argument. I'm having a hard time following yours. Many men control themselves, many men enjoy looking at scantily clad women... therefore?
Please stop classifying Rape as a violent crime. Rape is a sexual crime.
On November 07 2013 08:23 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:48 ComaDose wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:46 Mothra wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:41 ComaDose wrote: "Wearing provocative clothing ... just as valid to label contributing causes of rape"
seeee there is rape culture everywhere you just need to know how to spot it.
Are you going to share the reason it is not valid, or is your reason just rape culture full stop? If you can explain in plain English I'll be happy to listen.
Because wearing provocative clothing is not at all a contributing factor to rape and to suggest so shifts the blame from the rapist to the victim. almost as obvious of a case i can think of. i.e. telling women they can't dress a certain way or they risk getting raped is not okay.
Wearing provocative clothing makes you look prettier. Looking prettier makes you more likely to get raped. Basic logic. The point of contention isn't whether or not provocative clothing makes you more likely to be raped, that isn't even slightly contestable, the point of contention here is whether or not one should blame women for getting raped for doing things that increase their likelihood of getting raped, which as a corollary effect makes people sympathize less with the woman who just got raped.
And people shouldn't blame women. But they do. hence, problem.
As much as people blame women, they do it happens it sucks, people blame the rapist a lot more. I don't see the woman standing trial and being thrown in jail for 20+ years. Now sometimes there isn't enough evidence to actually reach a guilty verdict which is sometimes because the man didn't rape the woman. This is the correct verdict if he is actually innocent. A lot of issue arises because you don't need a witness or strong forensic evidence to go to trial in a rape case so it catches a lot of media attention regardless of whether the man is guilty or not. If the man is guilty he should go to jail, if he is innocent he should stay free and not have his name dragged through the mud.
Urm. Right. No one was saying women were being punished. Blame in the sense that there is a lot of shame for people that have been raped. On top of this, the number of convicted rapists to the number of rapes is pretty tragically low: http://www.uky.edu/CRVAW/files/TopTen/07_Rape_Prosecution.pdf
On November 07 2013 08:23 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:48 ComaDose wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:46 Mothra wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:41 ComaDose wrote: "Wearing provocative clothing ... just as valid to label contributing causes of rape"
seeee there is rape culture everywhere you just need to know how to spot it.
Are you going to share the reason it is not valid, or is your reason just rape culture full stop? If you can explain in plain English I'll be happy to listen.
Because wearing provocative clothing is not at all a contributing factor to rape and to suggest so shifts the blame from the rapist to the victim. almost as obvious of a case i can think of. i.e. telling women they can't dress a certain way or they risk getting raped is not okay.
Wearing provocative clothing makes you look prettier. Looking prettier makes you more likely to get raped. Basic logic. The point of contention isn't whether or not provocative clothing makes you more likely to be raped, that isn't even slightly contestable, the point of contention here is how much should we blame women for getting raped for doing things that increase their likelihood of getting raped and how much should we let that affect our sympathy for the victim. Just to let my opinion be known on this one, I don't believe clothes choice should affect how we allocate blame. It doesn't make any particular sense to do that, it's mainly just vindictiveness, envy and this other emotion that is equally inane but I don't know the word for.
What I had in mind was more that the prevalence of people objectifying themselves as sexual objects leads to increased animosity, frustration and lust, and decreased respect for others and self. Those lead to more rapes. Not so much that looking pretty on a particular night increases chances of being raped.
I think we have to all have to take responsibility for it as a society instead of just blaming either victim or rapist and then washing our hands of it. Rape culture is a vague and meaningless phrase to me, whereas the violence and hypersexualization of society I can understand and believe perpetuates rape. I do believe that dressing in a sexually provocative manner is a part of the problem, but it doesn't mean I blame people for being raped or feel anyone deserves to be.
LOL So, women can't wear "Provocative clothing"
I suppose men get to define what that means right? We don't want them to be causing problems for potential rapists. Why can't women wear what they want? It's not like they're walking round naked. What counts as provocative clothing for men? Not to mention, if women went to nightclothes making sure not to be "Provocative" then they would probably be called cold and boring.
EDIT: Sorry for multiposting btw. I'll try to keep it in one post in future.
On November 07 2013 08:23 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:48 ComaDose wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:46 Mothra wrote:
On November 07 2013 06:41 ComaDose wrote: "Wearing provocative clothing ... just as valid to label contributing causes of rape"
seeee there is rape culture everywhere you just need to know how to spot it.
Are you going to share the reason it is not valid, or is your reason just rape culture full stop? If you can explain in plain English I'll be happy to listen.
Because wearing provocative clothing is not at all a contributing factor to rape and to suggest so shifts the blame from the rapist to the victim. almost as obvious of a case i can think of. i.e. telling women they can't dress a certain way or they risk getting raped is not okay.
Wearing provocative clothing makes you look prettier. Looking prettier makes you more likely to get raped. Basic logic. The point of contention isn't whether or not provocative clothing makes you more likely to be raped, that isn't even slightly contestable, the point of contention here is how much should we blame women for getting raped for doing things that increase their likelihood of getting raped and how much should we let that affect our sympathy for the victim. Just to let my opinion be known on this one, I don't believe clothes choice should affect how we allocate blame. It doesn't make any particular sense to do that, it's mainly just vindictiveness, envy and this other emotion that is equally inane but I don't know the word for.
What I had in mind was more that the prevalence of people objectifying themselves as sexual objects leads to increased animosity, frustration and lust, and decreased respect for others and self. Those lead to more rapes. Not so much that looking pretty on a particular night increases chances of being raped.
I think we have to all have to take responsibility for it as a society instead of just blaming either victim or rapist and then washing our hands of it. Rape culture is a vague and meaningless phrase to me, whereas the violence and hypersexualization of society I can understand and believe perpetuates rape. I do believe that dressing in a sexually provocative manner is a part of the problem, but it doesn't mean I blame people for being raped or feel anyone deserves to be.
LOL So, women can't wear "Provocative clothing"
I suppose men get to define what that means right? We don't want them to be causing problems for potential rapists. Why can't women wear what they want? It's not like they're walking round naked. What counts as provocative clothing for men? Not to mention, if women went to nightclothes making sure not to be "Provocative" then they would probably be called cold and boring.
EDIT: Sorry for multiposting btw. I'll try to keep it in one post in future.
I don't really think the clothing matters too much. As long as a girl shows interest in a guy he'll probably go after her (not meaning rape her) unless there is a hotter girl there. Men aren't that picky. The idea that provocative clothing causes rape is silly. (I'm agreeing with you) Yes it increases desire for sex but lots of guys control themselves enough to not rape women. A woman should be allowed to wear nothing and not have fear of rape. Sadly in the real world baby's die, people get shot without anyone being found guilty, wars happen, and women get raped.
I think there needs to be more effort put towards helping the victim get back to what life was before. It was a tragic event but they should be taught not to let it define them as it happens to be. I can't understand this idea that rape culture means rape is accepted. I can however see the culture where a woman/man who is raped is thought to be ruined by the event.
Boyfriends break up with the woman who was raped, friends leave them behind because they don't want to think of the bad event. They might not be blaming the victim but to the victim it seems like everyone is blaming her/him for the event when all people really want is to just not think about bad things. People are selfish like this, they don't want a constant reminder there is evil/misfortune in the world (you see this in cases where marriages end in divorce when a baby is still-born or toddler dies by an accident.)
It's like any traumatic event, if you can't move forward you break and stop functioning. Nothing works and everything seems hopeless. It might be best to put in money into traumatic stress treatments and counseling in order to help victims.
EPT
