On October 09 2013 13:51 herozour wrote: So you are saying that spamming goliath and playing cat and mouse game with carriers is the only option?
it's a matter of style.
the goal of wraiths is to limit the carrier movement when harassing bases. so a small group of wraiths can be effective when protoss is getting too aggressive when harassing a base.
the trick here is to periodically scan the carriers, snipe the observers with the goliaths and charging in with the wraiths when there is an opening.
Yeah and flash didn't do it in a LONG game which is why he is noob. Anyway nobody told me what is mech yet. Ok never mind I found it. Mech means factory based army.
On October 09 2013 13:17 ArvickHero wrote: Goliaths are better because of upgrades (you'd already be researching ground attack/def), they are cheaper (per unit and infrastructure), they fare better vs Dragoons, they deal more damage and wraiths are squishier in general especially vs storm.
The biggest reason however, is that once Protoss knows wraiths are being built, he only needs to build a few corsairs and an obs fleet, which will result in obliterated wraiths before they can gun down all the obs. So for this reason alone, wraiths are only viable as a one-shot surprise counter.
You can build many science vessels and do defensive matrix on your wraiths and PWN those corsairs or whatnot. Epic pwnage guaranteed. Might even bring some SCVs for repairs.
Besides you can COMBINE(hehe very clever) the boxer medic strategy with stealth wraith, EMP and defense matrixes and SCVs. That's epic MULTIPWNAGE right there! Guaranteed!
Ok I will distill it down for you.
Wraiths are good against carriers, but they are terrible against protoss (at least MUCH MUCH worse than goliathes).
Usually Protoss won't go pure carrier, they will have a small ground army and templars with storm. Wraiths happen to be bad vs pretty much everything protoss has OTHER than carriers.
So yes, your wraiths, will counter the carriers, but now you have a massive wraith fleet, they can either a) Build some corsairs, 12 corsairs will pretty much kill infinite numbers of wraiths, then their carriers will kill you. b) Use hts with storm with their carriers, which they should be doing anyway, wraiths are kinda fragile, and storm doesn't need detection to kill stuff. c) Take some expos and canon them a little, wraiths are terrible vs canons, with the giant gas expenditure on wraiths, you can't stop them from taking expos. d) Let their carriers die, build dragoons or just a standard ground army. If they are at carriers, they already have the tech for a ground army. Your wraiths have terrible ground dps, and generally can't win a fight with the protoss ground army, you will lose all your bases and consequently the game, but congratulations you countered their carriers.
Basically, the point of the game is not to kill their army, it's to win the game. Wraiths will counter carriers, just being protoss pretty much counters wraiths. Wraiths are ok if you really really want to kill those carriers, goliathes are much more versatile in the matchup overall, and are what you build if you want to win the game.
In short:
On October 09 2013 13:51 herozour wrote: So you are saying that spamming goliath and playing cat and mouse game with carriers is the only option?
No, but it's, by a massive margin, the best and most consistent option if your goal isn't necessarily to kill carriers, but to win the game.
So many epic pwnage. If only carriers were bionic, there would be even more Plus the medic trick sure seems easy to pull off. Only noobs like flash can't think about that and do it.
Wraiths are so unreliable though if the protoss manages to misplace his obs GG. Otherwise you probably just waste a lot of money and lose as a result anyway.
On October 09 2013 18:22 herozour wrote: Did you see the rep from the first post? You think goliath spam was best in that particular situation?
Undoubtably, Jangbi still had a massive gas stack for templars, through most of the game he still had a sizeable ground army. I can't emphasize enough just how much even a small protoss ground army completely invalidates a wraith fleet.
And by the time Jangbi didn't have much ground army left, due to lacking mining. Flash himself was starving, especially for gas, and couldn't afford to lay down the extra starports, or the wraiths (which cost twice as much gas as goliathes).
Basically at no point in that game would it have been wise to switch to wraiths, especially since python isn't even a good map for carriers, golies do perfectly fine on open maps like that.
On October 09 2013 17:54 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Ok I will distill it down for you.
Wraiths are good against carriers, but they are terrible against protoss (at least MUCH MUCH worse than goliathes).
Have you watched hiya play?
In TvP?? I recall him using lots of wraiths in TvT, as did ALOT of terrans near the end of Kespa BW. I don't seem to recall him using wraiths much in TvP.
On October 09 2013 18:22 herozour wrote: Did you see the rep from the first post? You think goliath spam was best in that particular situation?
Undoubtably, Jangbi still had a massive gas stack for templars, through most of the game he still had a sizeable ground army. I can't emphasize enough just how much even a small protoss ground army completely invalidates a wraith fleet.
And by the time Jangbi didn't have much ground army left, due to lacking mining. Flash himself was starving, especially for gas, and couldn't afford to lay down the extra starports, or the wraiths (which cost twice as much gas as goliathes).
Basically at no point in that game would it have been wise to switch to wraiths, especially since python isn't even a good map for carriers, golies do perfectly fine on open maps like that.
On October 09 2013 17:54 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Ok I will distill it down for you.
Wraiths are good against carriers, but they are terrible against protoss (at least MUCH MUCH worse than goliathes).
Have you watched hiya play?
In TvP?? I recall him using lots of wraiths in TvT, as did ALOT of terrans near the end of Kespa BW. I don't seem to recall him using wraiths much in TvP.
Leta vs pusan@katrina: 3ports wraiths into bio
Hiya vs free@ triathlon : 3 ports wraiths into nukes
Hiya vs tyson @ fighting spirit : 5 rax +1 into 3 ports wraiths to kill reavers and shuttles
On October 09 2013 18:44 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On October 09 2013 18:22 herozour wrote: Did you see the rep from the first post? You think goliath spam was best in that particular situation?
Undoubtably, Jangbi still had a massive gas stack for templars, through most of the game he still had a sizeable ground army. I can't emphasize enough just how much even a small protoss ground army completely invalidates a wraith fleet.
And by the time Jangbi didn't have much ground army left, due to lacking mining. Flash himself was starving, especially for gas, and couldn't afford to lay down the extra starports, or the wraiths (which cost twice as much gas as goliathes).
Basically at no point in that game would it have been wise to switch to wraiths, especially since python isn't even a good map for carriers, golies do perfectly fine on open maps like that.
On October 09 2013 18:42 Operations wrote:
On October 09 2013 17:54 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Ok I will distill it down for you.
Wraiths are good against carriers, but they are terrible against protoss (at least MUCH MUCH worse than goliathes).
Have you watched hiya play?
In TvP?? I recall him using lots of wraiths in TvT, as did ALOT of terrans near the end of Kespa BW. I don't seem to recall him using wraiths much in TvP.
Leta vs pusan@katrina: 3ports wraiths into bio
Hiya vs free@ triathlon : 3 ports wraiths into nukes
Hiya vs tyson @ fighting spirit : 5 rax +1 into 3 ports wraiths to kill reavers and shuttles
Lol so 2 losses, and what was effectively just a bio timing attack winning the game, that kinda proves my point :D
On October 09 2013 18:44 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On October 09 2013 18:22 herozour wrote: Did you see the rep from the first post? You think goliath spam was best in that particular situation?
Undoubtably, Jangbi still had a massive gas stack for templars, through most of the game he still had a sizeable ground army. I can't emphasize enough just how much even a small protoss ground army completely invalidates a wraith fleet.
And by the time Jangbi didn't have much ground army left, due to lacking mining. Flash himself was starving, especially for gas, and couldn't afford to lay down the extra starports, or the wraiths (which cost twice as much gas as goliathes).
Basically at no point in that game would it have been wise to switch to wraiths, especially since python isn't even a good map for carriers, golies do perfectly fine on open maps like that.
On October 09 2013 18:42 Operations wrote:
On October 09 2013 17:54 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Ok I will distill it down for you.
Wraiths are good against carriers, but they are terrible against protoss (at least MUCH MUCH worse than goliathes).
Have you watched hiya play?
In TvP?? I recall him using lots of wraiths in TvT, as did ALOT of terrans near the end of Kespa BW. I don't seem to recall him using wraiths much in TvP.
Leta vs pusan@katrina: 3ports wraiths into bio
Hiya vs free@ triathlon : 3 ports wraiths into nukes
Hiya vs tyson @ fighting spirit : 5 rax +1 into 3 ports wraiths to kill reavers and shuttles
Neither HiyA nor leta have ever had a very good win rate vs protoss.
Who is this idiot that is so pro in theory craft but doesn't know what is considered as mech? Let's make a paper plane army and die to everything else the protoss has to offer and go even with carriers. And he thinks that if it works one game, it works every game. P/s: I still don't comprehend how the fuck the OP doesn't know what mech is.
Dmatrix every single wraith while using medics to blind everything EMP the carriers and bring SCVs around to repair wraiths against carriers which obviously don't have a shitton of burst damage. Seems viable.
On October 09 2013 23:01 traceurling wrote: Dmatrix every single wraith while using medics to blind everything EMP the carriers and bring SCVs around to repair wraiths against carriers which obviously don't have a shitton of burst damage. Seems viable.
Dmatrix the carriers, EMP the wraiths and blind the science vessels while using the SCVs to attack the carriers, cause they have a shitton of burst damage. Obviously. Seems viable.
On October 09 2013 13:17 ArvickHero wrote: Goliaths are better because of upgrades (you'd already be researching ground attack/def), they are cheaper (per unit and infrastructure), they fare better vs Dragoons, they deal more damage and wraiths are squishier in general especially vs storm.
The biggest reason however, is that once Protoss knows wraiths are being built, he only needs to build a few corsairs and an obs fleet, which will result in obliterated wraiths before they can gun down all the obs. So for this reason alone, wraiths are only viable as a one-shot surprise counter.
Protoss doesn't even need more than, like, 5 corsairs to nullify all your wraiths. And like you said, storm.
And wraiths suck against anything but carriers. Goliaths are ok vs zealots and dragoons, too.
I would post a flash unimpressed meme but ... The would get me trouble.
If i'm not mistaken, Storm two shot wraiths no ? No upgrades, price of cloack. Goliath shoot farther than wraith too with the upgrade no ? Need to build starport... The time you build your army you are like.. Dead.
On October 09 2013 12:21 BisuDagger wrote: Here you go, prepare to shit your pants watching this:
Well he failed to take out all observers which come near by. You must take out observers then bam bam bam. Then take out observers then bam bam bam. But flash is still a noob after watching that rep^^
On October 09 2013 13:51 herozour wrote: So you are saying that spamming goliath and playing cat and mouse game with carriers is the only option?
it's a matter of style.
the goal of wraiths is to limit the carrier movement when harassing bases. so a small group of wraiths can be effective when protoss is getting too aggressive when harassing a base.
the trick here is to periodically scan the carriers, snipe the observers with the goliaths and charging in with the wraiths when there is an opening.
Yeah and flash didn't do it in a LONG game which is why he is noob. Anyway nobody told me what is mech yet. Ok never mind I found it. Mech means factory based army.
On October 09 2013 13:17 ArvickHero wrote: Goliaths are better because of upgrades (you'd already be researching ground attack/def), they are cheaper (per unit and infrastructure), they fare better vs Dragoons, they deal more damage and wraiths are squishier in general especially vs storm.
The biggest reason however, is that once Protoss knows wraiths are being built, he only needs to build a few corsairs and an obs fleet, which will result in obliterated wraiths before they can gun down all the obs. So for this reason alone, wraiths are only viable as a one-shot surprise counter.
You can build many science vessels and do defensive matrix on your wraiths and PWN those corsairs or whatnot. Epic pwnage guaranteed. Might even bring some SCVs for repairs.
Besides you can COMBINE(hehe very clever) the boxer medic strategy with stealth wraith, EMP and defense matrixes and SCVs. That's epic MULTIPWNAGE right there! Guaranteed!
FlaSh is a noob,but you don't know what mech is...?
EPT
