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herozour
142 Posts
Why didn't flash have enough skillz to build wraiths + EMP science vessels versus carriers? Stealth wraiths pwn also carriers can't run away from them so you can kill em quickly and all intercepters with em die. Here is the rep. http://speedy.sh/nU8KB/Flash-vs-Jangbi-1.rep Conclusion. Flash = big noob. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19223 Posts
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herozour
142 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:21 BisuDagger wrote: Here you go, prepare to shit your pants watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiIRazYouGw Well he failed to take out all observers which come near by. You must take out observers then bam bam bam. Then take out observers then bam bam bam. But flash is still a noob after watching that rep^^ | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
It isn't always easy to take out obs | ||
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herozour
142 Posts
Also look at how much money he wasted on em. Instead of just building 12 wraiths and 1 science vessel(for EMP). Lets look at the costs also. 1 science vessel = 100 minerals 225 gas. 12 wraith cost = 150 * 12 + 100 * 12 = 1800 minerals and 1200 gas. Total together 1900 minerals and 1425 gas. 19 goliaths cost 1900 minerals and 950 gas. So instead of building 19 goliaths which run around not doing much damage you can build superforce and pwn those noobs. Besides the protoss guy didn't even bring arbiter with his carriers. What kind of pro is that? So much fail. To speed things up build 4-5 starports. Ah btw the the defensive matrix on the wraith makes em killing machines. I forgot if you could irradiate carriers but if you can then do that as well. Epic pwnage guaranteed. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
The biggest reason however, is that once Protoss knows wraiths are being built, he only needs to build a few corsairs and an obs fleet, which will result in obliterated wraiths before they can gun down all the obs. So for this reason alone, wraiths are only viable as a one-shot surprise counter. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
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herozour
142 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On October 09 2013 13:51 herozour wrote: So you are saying that spamming goliath and playing cat and mouse game with carriers is the only option? No, wraith are good unit against carriers. It just that you generally wont see or have a reason to build that many starport AND THEN create wraith with 0-0-0 upgrade against carriers because you have probably 12 factory with probably 2-2 or 3-3 mech army to produce 12 golliath at the same time. Golliath also does decent on the ground too, while wraith are kinda bad on the ground and even worst when the protoss ground army is probably have 2-2-2 or 3-3-3. Also he is killing interceptor which are pretty pricey and can add up. Here old video of Boxer glory day where he used medic to flare blind the observer and then snipe carriers incase you havent seen. Here is at 5min EDIT: Cant find the game, it too old so this clip will have to suffice. EDIT 2: There is also lock down to counter carriers but it kinda unorthodox. | ||
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herozour
142 Posts
On October 09 2013 13:57 SheaR619 wrote: No, wraith are good unit against carriers. It just that you generally wont see or have a reason to build that many starport AND THEN create wraith with 0-0-0 upgrade against carriers because you have probably 12 factory with probably 2-2 or 3-3 mech army to produce 12 golliath at the same time. Golliath also does decent on the ground too, while wraith are kinda bad on the ground and even worst when the protoss ground army is probably have 2-2-2 or 3-3-3. Also he is killing interceptor which are pretty pricey and can add up. Here old video of Boxer glory day where he used medic to flare blind the observer and then snipe carriers incase you havent seen. Here is at 5min http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDMSD_XnZFA EDIT: Cant find the game, it too old so this clip will have to suffice. EDIT 2: There is also lock down to counter carriers but it kinda unorthodox. Haha that clip is so epic lol. All of it. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19223 Posts
On October 09 2013 13:51 herozour wrote: So you are saying that spamming goliath and playing cat and mouse game with carriers is the only option? The point is even though a unit maybe a good counter, it is not economically the best choice nor is it the safest if everytime I saw carriers I could hit the easy button and produce any unit I wanted then cloaked ghosts are the ultimate counter as they snipe interceptors and burn through the protoss economy better the wraiths. But in the end, Terran goes.mech and has tons of factories plus ground upgrades on mech so the best choice is go mech. | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
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herozour
142 Posts
On October 09 2013 15:09 traceurling wrote: I honesty can't evaluate the troll level of this post You think I'm troll just cause flash failed? Everybody can be noob. Btw how can ghosts snipe intercepters if they do 10 damage per shot? You build many of em and shoot 1 interceptor at a time? Also what does mech means? | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
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itsjustatank
Hong Kong9152 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:54 herozour wrote: Hahaha. Flash is noob cause he just spammed goliaths when wraith are much better weapon against carriers. Also look at how much money he wasted on em. Instead of just building 12 wraiths and 1 science vessel(for EMP). is this real life | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
maybe it's (just a) fantasy | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
But Fantasy built wraith vs Jangbi's carriers in Jin Air OSL finals game 5. Fantasy is reality ? edit :Also OP calls the best player of all time a noob but isn't sure whether carriers can be irradiated ? | ||
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Operations
115 Posts
On October 09 2013 13:51 herozour wrote: So you are saying that spamming goliath and playing cat and mouse game with carriers is the only option? it's a matter of style. the goal of wraiths is to limit the carrier movement when harassing bases. so a small group of wraiths can be effective when protoss is getting too aggressive when harassing a base. the trick here is to periodically scan the carriers, snipe the observers with the goliaths and charging in with the wraiths when there is an opening. | ||
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herozour
142 Posts
On October 09 2013 16:29 Operations wrote: it's a matter of style. the goal of wraiths is to limit the carrier movement when harassing bases. so a small group of wraiths can be effective when protoss is getting too aggressive when harassing a base. the trick here is to periodically scan the carriers, snipe the observers with the goliaths and charging in with the wraiths when there is an opening. Yeah and flash didn't do it in a LONG game which is why he is noob. Anyway nobody told me what is mech yet. Ok never mind I found it. Mech means factory based army. On October 09 2013 13:17 ArvickHero wrote: Goliaths are better because of upgrades (you'd already be researching ground attack/def), they are cheaper (per unit and infrastructure), they fare better vs Dragoons, they deal more damage and wraiths are squishier in general especially vs storm. The biggest reason however, is that once Protoss knows wraiths are being built, he only needs to build a few corsairs and an obs fleet, which will result in obliterated wraiths before they can gun down all the obs. So for this reason alone, wraiths are only viable as a one-shot surprise counter. You can build many science vessels and do defensive matrix on your wraiths and PWN those corsairs or whatnot. Epic pwnage guaranteed. Might even bring some SCVs for repairs. Besides you can COMBINE(hehe very clever) the boxer medic strategy with stealth wraith, EMP and defense matrixes and SCVs. That's epic MULTIPWNAGE right there! Guaranteed! | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On October 09 2013 16:43 herozour wrote: Yeah and flash didn't do it in a LONG game which is why he is noob. Anyway nobody told me what is mech yet. Ok never mind I found it. Mech means factory based army. You can build many science vessels and do defensive matrix on your wraiths and PWN those corsairs or whatnot. Epic pwnage guaranteed. Might even bring some SCVs for repairs. Besides you can COMBINE(hehe very clever) the boxer medic strategy with stealth wraith, EMP and defense matrixes and SCVs. That's epic MULTIPWNAGE right there! Guaranteed! Ok I will distill it down for you. Wraiths are good against carriers, but they are terrible against protoss (at least MUCH MUCH worse than goliathes). Usually Protoss won't go pure carrier, they will have a small ground army and templars with storm. Wraiths happen to be bad vs pretty much everything protoss has OTHER than carriers. So yes, your wraiths, will counter the carriers, but now you have a massive wraith fleet, they can either a) Build some corsairs, 12 corsairs will pretty much kill infinite numbers of wraiths, then their carriers will kill you. b) Use hts with storm with their carriers, which they should be doing anyway, wraiths are kinda fragile, and storm doesn't need detection to kill stuff. c) Take some expos and canon them a little, wraiths are terrible vs canons, with the giant gas expenditure on wraiths, you can't stop them from taking expos. d) Let their carriers die, build dragoons or just a standard ground army. If they are at carriers, they already have the tech for a ground army. Your wraiths have terrible ground dps, and generally can't win a fight with the protoss ground army, you will lose all your bases and consequently the game, but congratulations you countered their carriers. Basically, the point of the game is not to kill their army, it's to win the game. Wraiths will counter carriers, just being protoss pretty much counters wraiths. Wraiths are ok if you really really want to kill those carriers, goliathes are much more versatile in the matchup overall, and are what you build if you want to win the game. In short: On October 09 2013 13:51 herozour wrote: So you are saying that spamming goliath and playing cat and mouse game with carriers is the only option? No, but it's, by a massive margin, the best and most consistent option if your goal isn't necessarily to kill carriers, but to win the game. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
 Plus the medic trick sure seems easy to pull off. Only noobs like flash can't think about that and do it. | ||
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herozour
142 Posts
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skzlime
Hungary462 Posts
i think the most skilled reaction is ghosts and goliaths in dmatrix dropships flash is noob | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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Operations
115 Posts
On October 09 2013 17:54 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Ok I will distill it down for you. Wraiths are good against carriers, but they are terrible against protoss (at least MUCH MUCH worse than goliathes). Have you watched hiya play? | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On October 09 2013 18:22 herozour wrote: Did you see the rep from the first post? You think goliath spam was best in that particular situation? Undoubtably, Jangbi still had a massive gas stack for templars, through most of the game he still had a sizeable ground army. I can't emphasize enough just how much even a small protoss ground army completely invalidates a wraith fleet. And by the time Jangbi didn't have much ground army left, due to lacking mining. Flash himself was starving, especially for gas, and couldn't afford to lay down the extra starports, or the wraiths (which cost twice as much gas as goliathes). Basically at no point in that game would it have been wise to switch to wraiths, especially since python isn't even a good map for carriers, golies do perfectly fine on open maps like that. In TvP?? I recall him using lots of wraiths in TvT, as did ALOT of terrans near the end of Kespa BW. I don't seem to recall him using wraiths much in TvP. | ||
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Operations
115 Posts
On October 09 2013 18:44 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Undoubtably, Jangbi still had a massive gas stack for templars, through most of the game he still had a sizeable ground army. I can't emphasize enough just how much even a small protoss ground army completely invalidates a wraith fleet. And by the time Jangbi didn't have much ground army left, due to lacking mining. Flash himself was starving, especially for gas, and couldn't afford to lay down the extra starports, or the wraiths (which cost twice as much gas as goliathes). Basically at no point in that game would it have been wise to switch to wraiths, especially since python isn't even a good map for carriers, golies do perfectly fine on open maps like that. In TvP?? I recall him using lots of wraiths in TvT, as did ALOT of terrans near the end of Kespa BW. I don't seem to recall him using wraiths much in TvP. Leta vs pusan@katrina: 3ports wraiths into bio Hiya vs free@ triathlon : 3 ports wraiths into nukes Hiya vs tyson @ fighting spirit : 5 rax +1 into 3 ports wraiths to kill reavers and shuttles | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On October 09 2013 18:56 Operations wrote: Leta vs pusan@katrina: 3ports wraiths into bio Hiya vs free@ triathlon : 3 ports wraiths into nukes Hiya vs tyson @ fighting spirit : 5 rax +1 into 3 ports wraiths to kill reavers and shuttles Lol so 2 losses, and what was effectively just a bio timing attack winning the game, that kinda proves my point :D | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
On October 09 2013 18:56 Operations wrote: Leta vs pusan@katrina: 3ports wraiths into bio Hiya vs free@ triathlon : 3 ports wraiths into nukes Hiya vs tyson @ fighting spirit : 5 rax +1 into 3 ports wraiths to kill reavers and shuttles Neither HiyA nor leta have ever had a very good win rate vs protoss. | ||
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vndestiny
Singapore3440 Posts
Let's make a paper plane army and die to everything else the protoss has to offer and go even with carriers. And he thinks that if it works one game, it works every game. P/s: I still don't comprehend how the fuck the OP doesn't know what mech is. | ||
ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1680 Posts
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
On October 09 2013 23:01 traceurling wrote: Dmatrix every single wraith while using medics to blind everything EMP the carriers and bring SCVs around to repair wraiths against carriers which obviously don't have a shitton of burst damage. Seems viable. Dmatrix the carriers, EMP the wraiths and blind the science vessels while using the SCVs to attack the carriers, cause they have a shitton of burst damage. Obviously. Seems viable. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On October 09 2013 13:17 ArvickHero wrote: Goliaths are better because of upgrades (you'd already be researching ground attack/def), they are cheaper (per unit and infrastructure), they fare better vs Dragoons, they deal more damage and wraiths are squishier in general especially vs storm. The biggest reason however, is that once Protoss knows wraiths are being built, he only needs to build a few corsairs and an obs fleet, which will result in obliterated wraiths before they can gun down all the obs. So for this reason alone, wraiths are only viable as a one-shot surprise counter. Protoss doesn't even need more than, like, 5 corsairs to nullify all your wraiths. And like you said, storm. And wraiths suck against anything but carriers. Goliaths are ok vs zealots and dragoons, too. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
If i'm not mistaken, Storm two shot wraiths no ? No upgrades, price of cloack. Goliath shoot farther than wraith too with the upgrade no ? Need to build starport... The time you build your army you are like.. Dead. And also... Wraith are like Scouts. with cloack Flash is noob but you don't know what mech is ? On October 09 2013 12:30 herozour wrote: Well he failed to take out all observers which come near by. You must take out observers then bam bam bam. Then take out observers then bam bam bam. But flash is still a noob after watching that rep^^ Also... It's not FlaSh in the video but Fantasy Plot twist ! + Show Spoiler + It's actually Flash trolling us | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
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t0ssboy
Bulgaria681 Posts
On October 09 2013 16:43 herozour wrote: Yeah and flash didn't do it in a LONG game which is why he is noob. Anyway nobody told me what is mech yet. Ok never mind I found it. Mech means factory based army. You can build many science vessels and do defensive matrix on your wraiths and PWN those corsairs or whatnot. Epic pwnage guaranteed. Might even bring some SCVs for repairs. Besides you can COMBINE(hehe very clever) the boxer medic strategy with stealth wraith, EMP and defense matrixes and SCVs. That's epic MULTIPWNAGE right there! Guaranteed! FlaSh is a noob,but you don't know what mech is...? | ||
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Operations
115 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On October 10 2013 00:49 Operations wrote: If wraiths are so bad then why every protoss pro gamer has 5 observers following their carriers fleet? Because as someone said, wraiths can work at a one time surprise and obliterate the thing. Also... Lockdown can occur... | ||
KadaverBB
Germany25657 Posts
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