On September 18 2013 15:54 ArvickHero wrote: No, builds and compositions are in no way more precise in SC2. A huge part of BW (I'm assuming we're talking about the pro level) were pros continually innovating and refining builds to the extreme limits, Flash being the best at this (and called God). Bisu dominated PvZ in 2011 for his incredibly refined timings, being just seconds faster than other pros. The most extreme variant of 2 hatch muta is called the 5:30 build (or something like that, maybe it was 6:30). Proleague was full of snipers that practiced specific timing builds (Dear vs Flash on Ground Zero is a good example). There might not be a wealth of community resources detailing builds down to the exact second like SC2 has, but that doesn't mean BW was in any way less exact.
Also in BW if you had the wrong comp, you lost, just like in SC2. I don't think I need to really extrapolate on this point. Leta vs Jaedong on Jade if you want to watch a game.
So really, your equation is Greater impact + fewer ways to gain advantages. And I disagree that "fewer ways to gain advantages" actually counts, since we're arguing how difficult the strategy/decision-making is, not how you can win ezpz. So all you have is just greater impact, when the strategy is, again, essentially the same.
By precise I mean you must react a specific way consistently depending on what your opponent is doing, not in terms of timings. Sorry if that shouldn't have been the word I used.
That is the nature of a counter/hard counter system. For example, it is a necessity to build hydras against mass voidrays (until super late game when you can afford enough infestors to fungal-lock). Can't go mass queens, because they lose to ground army + too slow. Can't go mass mutas because VRs are decent in small numbers, enough so that phoenixes off 2+ stargates counters it hard. Can't go corruptors because they melt. There are many other examples of builds being very strict in SC2, and while I do think it's inelegant, it makes the game difficult because if you respond wrong to what you see (it is a game of limited information), or interpret what you see wrong, you will probably lose.
You and YyapSsap curiously disagree about the importance of BW compositions, so maybe it is better for you to have that discussion between yourselves, since you know more about that than I do (I only played BW casually with friends, ie BGH). I was going to compare 2base carrier vs goliaths (JangBi vs Fantasy in OSL, forget which map) to VR vs hydras but I'm not good enough to talk about it.
However, I will argue that losing big battles in BW (due to compositions) isn't as punishing because of factors such as battles going on longer (longer time to prepare to defend with better composition), battles occurring at lower supply (available supply to build better composition assuming there is bank), battles occurring with less portion of your army (units spread out everywhere means you don't lose your whole army), stronger defenders advantage (high ground mechanics, stronger tanks, etc), and difficulty of macro and rallying (I sucked terribly at rallying). Not to mention snowballing deathballs. The impact of losing big battles due to composition isn't the same; you didn't instantly lose in BW, unlike in SC2.
Anyway, I feel like if we have yet to reach an impasse we will reach one eventually, so I suppose we just see a game's strategic difficulty differently. It's too complex a picture (you andYyapSsap disagree on some points despite agreeing overall) and of course some aspects are more difficult for one while not as difficulty for the other.
The whole perspective of SC2 vs BW changes when you for example observe muta harass vs terran that small window which microing a single muta pack becomes a whole new game within the game. This is not solely doing work, as in SC2 work, when you get banshee you kill X amount of workers or deal X amount or resource dmg and you are ahead.
Well that may happen too, but more importantly the strategical weight that lies on this muta pack, or wraith pack, or reaver harass, or carrier pack etc. Can be sometimes comparable to 100 food of SC2. The outcome of how you perform with that small tool can dictate the future outcome of the game. You know, and your opponent knows it too, suddenly this makes harass a centric point of the game, this is not a mere resource lost tab scenario, after making the decision there is a point of execution and after that there is a stage of counter execution from your opponent. Within that small window, decision making, strategy and micro prowess happens. 10 minute of muta micro, more importantly 2 control group micro, completly mind blowing. The decision making, micro prowess, and strategical weight that lied on a 20 units is beyond the rulebook of SC2.
This is beyond rulebook of SC2 hence i believe BW and SC2 are vastly different games.
You could also lose all your mutalisks in BW to one single irradiate or archon. And BW too had coinflips in the build orders. I think that the games are more similar than some people like to admit and that they share some negatives and positives, but in these sort of discussions we divide into BW & SC2 camps and only see the negatives and such on one side.
And Brood War might have an equal amount (or more) of strategic difficulty, but it doesn't have the same relative importance compared to SC2. This enables players whom are strategically challenged to perform well purely based on mechanical proficiency, but for two players that have equal mechanics you could still get a lot of mileage out of improving your strategies. (that's why Flash was so good)
On September 18 2013 17:08 Grumbels wrote: You could also lose all your mutalisks in BW to one single irradiate or archon. And BW too had coinflips in the build orders. I think that the games are more similar than some people like to admit and that they share some negatives and positives, but in these sort of discussions we divide into BW & SC2 camps and only see the negatives and such on one side.
And Brood War might have an equal amount (or more) of strategic difficulty, but it doesn't have the same relative importance compared to SC2. This enables players whom are strategically challenged to perform well purely based on mechanical proficiency, but for two players that have equal mechanics you could still get a lot of mileage out of improving your strategies. (that's why Flash was so good)
Im not sure if first paragraph holds truth at professional level, when you lose whole muta pack to archon or irradiate its your own fault for not microing. You can outmicro both archons and vessel's irradiate, at any given time, there is no point in time where its impossible. And it was done many times.
You can say that SC2 and BW are similar on general in broad view but i can you give glimpses of BW and SC2 that does not exist in their counter parts, those may be glimpses to some and mountains of difference to others. If there was otherwise we would be all happy one big family.
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it.
Not that I think sc2 scene will get destroyed even if Kespa quits it completely but if it did, I think you'd just get two dead games. Believing in a BW revival in any big way seems like wishful thinking.
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it.
You must be naive that players retiring from sc2 will bring back bw. LoL already killed both.
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it.
You must be naive that players retiring from sc2 will bring back bw. LoL already killed both.
SC2 is in a weird spot because it's the only RTS with a tournament circuit. So a lot of people who play/watch SC2 actually like the game, but a vocal minority hates it and only sticks around because there's nowhere else to go RTS-wise.
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it.
You must be naive that players retiring from sc2 will bring back bw. LoL already killed both.
SC2 is in a weird spot because it's the only RTS with a tournament circuit. So a lot of people who play/watch SC2 actually like the game, but a vocal minority hates it and only sticks around because there's nowhere else to go RTS-wise.
Yeah, though i understand bitterness of some BW elitists...
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it.
You must be naive that players retiring from sc2 will bring back bw. LoL already killed both.
SC2 is in a weird spot because it's the only RTS with a tournament circuit. So a lot of people who play/watch SC2 actually like the game, but a vocal minority hates it and only sticks around because there's nowhere else to go RTS-wise.
Yeah, though i understand bitterness of some BW elitists...
As if SC2 people aren´t elitists :D "Our game is hardcore" "That game is for casuals" "Our game have older people. That game is for children". And so on
Korean mandatory military service strikes again. C'mon Korea, we all know if you actually go to war with North Korea, US/UN forces will come save you anyway. Hell even China would put the smackdown on NK for being retarded.
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it.
You must be naive that players retiring from sc2 will bring back bw. LoL already killed both.
SC2 is in a weird spot because it's the only RTS with a tournament circuit. So a lot of people who play/watch SC2 actually like the game, but a vocal minority hates it and only sticks around because there's nowhere else to go RTS-wise.
Yeah, though i understand bitterness of some BW elitists...
As if SC2 people aren´t elitists :D "Our game is hardcore" "That game is for casuals" "Our game have older people. That game is for children". And so on
SC2 is hardcore compared to MOBAs. MOBAs do not bring you wrist problems nearly as fast :D. Also, SC2 is best game for kids ever: you do not need to think alot in it :3 But yes, compared to competitive BW SC2 is more casual than console shooters are compared to anything.
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it.
You must be naive that players retiring from sc2 will bring back bw. LoL already killed both.
SC2 is in a weird spot because it's the only RTS with a tournament circuit. So a lot of people who play/watch SC2 actually like the game, but a vocal minority hates it and only sticks around because there's nowhere else to go RTS-wise.
Yeah, though i understand bitterness of some BW elitists...
As if SC2 people aren´t elitists :D "Our game is hardcore" "That game is for casuals" "Our game have older people. That game is for children". And so on
I do find the discussions about SC2 vs LoL/Dota 2 to be shockingly similar to the ones about BW vs SC2. Its almost as all the same points are made and both arguments are about as pointless.
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it.
You must be naive that players retiring from sc2 will bring back bw. LoL already killed both.
SC2 is in a weird spot because it's the only RTS with a tournament circuit. So a lot of people who play/watch SC2 actually like the game, but a vocal minority hates it and only sticks around because there's nowhere else to go RTS-wise.
Yeah, though i understand bitterness of some BW elitists...
As if SC2 people aren´t elitists :D "Our game is hardcore" "That game is for casuals" "Our game have older people. That game is for children". And so on
SC2 is hardcore compared to MOBAs. MOBAs do not bring you wrist problems nearly as fast :D. Also, SC2 is best game for kids ever: you do not need to think alot in it :3 But yes, compared to competitive BW SC2 is more casual than console shooters are compared to anything.
SC2 is not as relevant as league of legends is these days. It doesn't have the same intensity as 10 players duking it out in a gut wrenching, action-packed duel on the summoners rift. If blizzard took something from riot and implemented their features such as banning certain units before the game; each player would be able to ban some units they dont like to face like mutalisks,zerglings etc.. this would be very nice and will diversify the game. Another thing they can do is make it more team based rather than solo to increase the skill ceiling. The solo model has obviously failed LOL has over 10 times the players, it's time SC2 became a team sport if they want to compete in this market.
On September 19 2013 00:48 iFU.pauline wrote: I think this is a good news, if they could be more retirement in order to destroy sc2 scene and bring back brood war im all for it.
You must be naive that players retiring from sc2 will bring back bw. LoL already killed both.
SC2 is in a weird spot because it's the only RTS with a tournament circuit. So a lot of people who play/watch SC2 actually like the game, but a vocal minority hates it and only sticks around because there's nowhere else to go RTS-wise.
One of the funniest statement. You should apply to blizzard.
EPT
