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On February 19 2013 22:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 21:27 Gamer_Girl wrote:
I look at the statistics, history, documents, etc... and find out that the biggest liars are governments, most corrupt are governments, biggest unnatural killers of humans are governments, so I don't trust anything that known and certified liars tell me. The biggest liar is Lance Armstrong.
You say he didn't travel to the moon by bike then?
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On February 19 2013 22:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D Random people all over the world bounce signals off of mirrors planted on the surface of the moon all the time. My housemate who is an astrophysics student has needed to do it a few times. Denying the moon landing is willful ignorance, it's intellectually comparable to denying the moon itself. If you're going to go conspiracy, go big. NASA faked the moon.
kwark i would love to see a mod read my post carefully i was (past) thinking they might have faked it and i had my reasons behind it i wanna give you a insight about it and therefore i stated my old believes.
Those are stupid but not as stupid as you might think and therefore i wanted to give you a insight, i thought the threat is there for that.
Damn sometimes you make me mad kwark ;D have a nice day
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On February 19 2013 21:57 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D That just makes it even more improbable. Many of the people working at NASA had extremely complicated jobs and are expert scientists in their field. You're basically saying that for the conspiracy theory to make any sense, about 50 people together were able to fool all of those experts and simulate the real situation for them, while at the same time making fake footage from the moon and streaming live. It's so improbable that all the arguments against it happening suddenly become miniscule. You get to the point where actually going to the moon is easier than faking it.
You don't even need to go down that line of thinking. The astronauts left stuff behind on the moon, they left reflectors that people on earth use to measure the distance to the moon, and we aren't talking about a select few who "say" they have done the experiment. Literally anyone with a good telescope and a powerful enough laser can do the experiment, including myself. A friend of mine works for a university, he once borrowed some equipment and took about 20 of us out in to the sticks and we spent the night bouncing lasers off the reflectors on the moon.
Now I'm sure conspiracy theorists will say that the reflectors weren't put there by actual humans but were sent by rocket to help keep the conspiracy covered up, but why would you do that? Thousands of people were involved in going to the moon, the TV signal was relayed from the UK (Jodrell Bank observatory) back to the US when Armstrong landed, so basically you are saying that those people were either involved or tricked. The only problem with that being that Jodrell Bank confirmed the source of the transmission as being from the moon. Even Russia, engaged in the space race against the US and in the midst of the cold war, acknowledged the achievement. If it was good enough for the Russians, its good enough for everyone else.
It would be so much easier to actually send people to the Moon, that faking it wouldn't be worth doing. There is no way you could keep it all under wraps, not to mention actually getting to the moon is pretty simple in space travel terms, all you need is a vessel and Newtons equations for gravity and motion. Having spent billions of dollars on a launch vehicle, how can anyone think they sent it up to the moon without any people on board? Why would you do that?
I know the OP didn't mention this stuff, but its a pillar of the conspiracy theorist and is the shining light as to why these people are bonkers. I know there are real conspiracies but one so massive as the moon landings or 9/11 being planned by the US government are so bonkers that even bonkers people don't subscribe to them.
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This is a blog.
But I like it!
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On February 19 2013 22:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D Random people all over the world bounce signals off of mirrors planted on the surface of the moon all the time. My housemate who is an astrophysics student has needed to do it a few times. Denying the moon landing is willful ignorance, it's intellectually comparable to denying the moon itself. If you're going to go conspiracy, go big. NASA faked the moon. Yep, a few of my fellow students at leiden did it as well.
Arguing against these theories often is like arguing against kent hovind: you don't even know where to start.
This one also is fun:
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
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On February 19 2013 23:02 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 21:57 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D That just makes it even more improbable. Many of the people working at NASA had extremely complicated jobs and are expert scientists in their field. You're basically saying that for the conspiracy theory to make any sense, about 50 people together were able to fool all of those experts and simulate the real situation for them, while at the same time making fake footage from the moon and streaming live. It's so improbable that all the arguments against it happening suddenly become miniscule. You get to the point where actually going to the moon is easier than faking it. You don't even need to go down that line of thinking. The astronauts left stuff behind on the moon, they left reflectors that people on earth use to measure the distance to the moon, and we aren't talking about a select few who "say" they have done the experiment. Literally anyone with a good telescope and a powerful enough laser can do the experiment, including myself. A friend of mine works for a university, he once borrowed some equipment and took about 20 of us out in to the sticks and we spent the night bouncing lasers off the reflectors on the moon. Now I'm sure conspiracy theorists will say that the reflectors weren't put there by actual humans but were sent by rocket to help keep the conspiracy covered up, but why would you do that? Thousands of people were involved in going to the moon, the TV signal was relayed from the UK (Jodrell Bank observatory) back to the US when Armstrong landed, so basically you are saying that those people were either involved or tricked. The only problem with that being that Jodrell Bank confirmed the source of the transmission as being from the moon. Even Russia, engaged in the space race against the US and in the midst of the cold war, acknowledged the achievement. If it was good enough for the Russians, its good enough for everyone else. It would be so much easier to actually send people to the Moon, that faking it wouldn't be worth doing. There is no way you could keep it all under wraps, not to mention actually getting to the moon is pretty simple in space travel terms, all you need is a vessel and Newtons equations for gravity and motion. Having spent billions of dollars on a launch vehicle, how can anyone think they sent it up to the moon without any people on board? Why would you do that? I know the OP didn't mention this stuff, but its a pillar of the conspiracy theorist and is the shining light as to why these people are bonkers. I know there are real conspiracies but one so massive as the moon landings or 9/11 being planned by the US government are so bonkers that even bonkers people don't subscribe to them.
Sorry for asking but it was always only about the first landing on the moon didnt they left the mirror in a later mission?
Its only about Apollo 11 in my opinion becouse USA lost every other race they really wanted to win that one against the russians therefore a motivation was there to fake it.
Even when they could have done it but just needed 3 more month they might just fake it in fear the russians would might have a compareable plan on their hands. (wich as far as i know russian goverment wanted the USA make believe)
You making it quite too easy for yourself to throw that opinion out of the window from the very beginning.
I still believe tehy managed and congratulate the USA to have been the first to put a foot on the moon.
Why do we even discuss this here?
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On February 19 2013 23:08 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 22:57 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D Random people all over the world bounce signals off of mirrors planted on the surface of the moon all the time. My housemate who is an astrophysics student has needed to do it a few times. Denying the moon landing is willful ignorance, it's intellectually comparable to denying the moon itself. If you're going to go conspiracy, go big. NASA faked the moon. Yep, a few of my fellow students at leiden did it as well. Arguing against these theories often is like arguing against kent hovind: you don't even know where to start. This one also is fun: http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
Theres also a big part who belive there are "übermenschen" (superhumans) living inside the earth only possible to enter from the poles and the himalaya and they speak german are 2,5 meters in height (on average) and have super technology.
They believe the germans were allys and that at the end of the war most german escaped to this insight world.
They also believe the inside of earth is empty and has a big power generator in the middle wich makes it rotate as well at providing additional gravity for people living inside.
They shoud be around 100 million of them living there...
Yeah there are litterally millions of those stupid ideas out there wich make rational thinking and questioning so super hard in today times.
This all makes me sad.
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I really enjoyed your OP, and have wandered down similar though paths before.
Thanks for sharing.
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On February 19 2013 22:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D Random people all over the world bounce signals off of mirrors planted on the surface of the moon all the time. My housemate who is an astrophysics student has needed to do it a few times. Denying the moon landing is willful ignorance, it's intellectually comparable to denying the moon itself. If you're going to go conspiracy, go big. NASA faked the moon.
Every post you make, KwarK, brings a smile to my face. Or more like a smirk 
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On February 19 2013 23:17 TOCHMY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 22:57 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D Random people all over the world bounce signals off of mirrors planted on the surface of the moon all the time. My housemate who is an astrophysics student has needed to do it a few times. Denying the moon landing is willful ignorance, it's intellectually comparable to denying the moon itself. If you're going to go conspiracy, go big. NASA faked the moon. Every post you make, KwarK, brings a smile to my face. Or more like a smirk
Same goes for me hope thats his plan and intention but when you are the one talked to its quite easy to get mad ^^
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On February 19 2013 23:09 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Why do we even discuss this here?
Because this is exactly what this topic is about. Picking a mainstream common conspiracy theory and showing how dumb it is might just be the best way to indicate what conspiracy theories are all about.
If the OP want to make the case that being a conspiracy theorist makes you smart, he can't just ignore some popular conspiracy theories, he has to deal with them too. I'm not saying that OP believes the moon landing was faked, but if he wants to defend conspiracy theories as a concept, he has to defend that one as well.
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On February 19 2013 23:31 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 23:09 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Why do we even discuss this here? Because this is exactly what this topic is about. Picking a mainstream common conspiracy theory and showing how dumb it is might just be the best way to indicate what conspiracy theories are all about. If the OP want to make the case that being a conspiracy theorist makes you smart, he can't just ignore some popular conspiracy theories, he has to deal with them too. I'm not saying that OP believes the moon landing was faked, but if he wants to defend conspiracy theories as a concept, he has to defend that one as well.
Nope thats the thing this opinion is plain stupid.
If there are stupid christian belives do all christians defend all those theories?
If there are stupid americans do all americans have to defend those opinions?
Same goes for conspiracy theorys!
We arent a club of people who have to agree on all other opinions of members of this club.
We arent the vatican.
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On February 19 2013 23:09 Chilling5pr33 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 23:02 emythrel wrote:On February 19 2013 21:57 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D That just makes it even more improbable. Many of the people working at NASA had extremely complicated jobs and are expert scientists in their field. You're basically saying that for the conspiracy theory to make any sense, about 50 people together were able to fool all of those experts and simulate the real situation for them, while at the same time making fake footage from the moon and streaming live. It's so improbable that all the arguments against it happening suddenly become miniscule. You get to the point where actually going to the moon is easier than faking it. You don't even need to go down that line of thinking. The astronauts left stuff behind on the moon, they left reflectors that people on earth use to measure the distance to the moon, and we aren't talking about a select few who "say" they have done the experiment. Literally anyone with a good telescope and a powerful enough laser can do the experiment, including myself. A friend of mine works for a university, he once borrowed some equipment and took about 20 of us out in to the sticks and we spent the night bouncing lasers off the reflectors on the moon. Now I'm sure conspiracy theorists will say that the reflectors weren't put there by actual humans but were sent by rocket to help keep the conspiracy covered up, but why would you do that? Thousands of people were involved in going to the moon, the TV signal was relayed from the UK (Jodrell Bank observatory) back to the US when Armstrong landed, so basically you are saying that those people were either involved or tricked. The only problem with that being that Jodrell Bank confirmed the source of the transmission as being from the moon. Even Russia, engaged in the space race against the US and in the midst of the cold war, acknowledged the achievement. If it was good enough for the Russians, its good enough for everyone else. It would be so much easier to actually send people to the Moon, that faking it wouldn't be worth doing. There is no way you could keep it all under wraps, not to mention actually getting to the moon is pretty simple in space travel terms, all you need is a vessel and Newtons equations for gravity and motion. Having spent billions of dollars on a launch vehicle, how can anyone think they sent it up to the moon without any people on board? Why would you do that? I know the OP didn't mention this stuff, but its a pillar of the conspiracy theorist and is the shining light as to why these people are bonkers. I know there are real conspiracies but one so massive as the moon landings or 9/11 being planned by the US government are so bonkers that even bonkers people don't subscribe to them. Sorry for asking but it was always only about the first landing on the moon didnt they left the mirror in a later mission? Its only about Apollo 11 in my opinion becouse USA lost every other race they really wanted to win that one against the russians therefore a motivation was there to fake it. Even when they could have done it but just needed 3 more month they might just fake it in fear the russians would might have a compareable plan on their hands. (wich as far as i know russian goverment wanted the USA make believe) You making it quite too easy for yourself to throw that opinion out of the window from the very beginning. I still believe tehy managed and congratulate the USA to have been the first to put a foot on the moon. Why do we even discuss this here?
I'm summing up the entire series of landing in to one thing, having actually studied physics and being a massive NASA fan. Yes it was in later missions they put the reflectors but to say they faked the initial landing and then actually went there later is just as absurd, so simply by acknowledging the fact of the reflectors being there, you have to acknowledge the first landing. The US won the space race, its that simple. The Russians got to many things first but the race was to the moon and the US got there first, one of the things about a race is that it doesn't matter who gets to the half way point first, its about to makes it to the finish first.
Basically anyone can create a conspiracy theory, it is as easy as saying "hey did you hear? Obama is a muslim" and look how fast that one caught on. To say we didn't go to the moon is to basically negate the works of thousands of people across the world, not just those who worked for NASA but also the countless others who have worked in multitudes of scientific and engineering field over the last two centuries.
Conspiracy theorists are the same as people who believe in ghosts or god, despite all the evidence to the contrary, they still believe. No matter how many ways I debunk my best friends dad's theories about why we didn't go the moon, he will never change his mind. I have proven that we went, by any reasonable standard, a hundred times and he still won't hear any of it. So anyone who says "I was one of these people, now I am not" was never really one of them.
As a child i believed the moon was made of cheese, until I read a book and found out otherwise. That is the difference, believing something because you are uneducated about it doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, still believing the conspiracy after you have educated yourself about it, makes you one.
I could even class myself amongst conspiracy theorists, I believe there is something about the JFK assassination that someone, I do not know whom, is keeping from the public. I do not think the government killed him or anything like that, but having seen multiple documentaries about the "magic bullet" and other such stuff and being largely reliant on such sources of information for my reasoning, believe that something is either being kept from the public or that the initial investigation was flawed. Perhaps I am just uneducated about the incident, if evidence could be shown to me that proves there was only 1 shooter and that the bullets were fired from the book depository, I would instantly drop by belief.... so again, I suppose I am not a true conspiracy theorist ;p
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Why don't you take your superior way of logical thinking into a scientific field and see how smart you really are. I can't believe you think your smarter than others because you believe in conspiracy theories. If your post has any merit, I challenge you to make a contribution in any field of scientific research.
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On February 19 2013 23:20 Chilling5pr33 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 23:17 TOCHMY wrote:On February 19 2013 22:57 KwarK wrote:On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D Random people all over the world bounce signals off of mirrors planted on the surface of the moon all the time. My housemate who is an astrophysics student has needed to do it a few times. Denying the moon landing is willful ignorance, it's intellectually comparable to denying the moon itself. If you're going to go conspiracy, go big. NASA faked the moon. Every post you make, KwarK, brings a smile to my face. Or more like a smirk Same goes for me hope thats his plan and intention but when you are the one talked to its quite easy to get mad ^^
I find that whenever people get mad in an online debate, or well any debate really, it marks the point when they have exhausted all their carefully pre-arranged arguments that were supposed to make the ignorant plebs see the truth. And when this doesn't happen, and no more such arguments remain, anger or sulkiness is a common reaction.
I realise this thread has been fairly harsh at points, but it truly does strain ones patience when otherwise completely rational inquiry is pushed well past a reasonable limit. To claim those who accept commonly held and scientifically supported opinions are sheep/ignorant is an exceedingly good way to make yourself look rather dumb, not to mention highly aggravating to interact with.
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On February 19 2013 23:34 Chilling5pr33 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 23:31 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 23:09 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Why do we even discuss this here? Because this is exactly what this topic is about. Picking a mainstream common conspiracy theory and showing how dumb it is might just be the best way to indicate what conspiracy theories are all about. If the OP want to make the case that being a conspiracy theorist makes you smart, he can't just ignore some popular conspiracy theories, he has to deal with them too. I'm not saying that OP believes the moon landing was faked, but if he wants to defend conspiracy theories as a concept, he has to defend that one as well. Nope thats the thing this opinion is plain stupid. If there are stupid christian belives do have all christians defend all those theories? If there are stupid americans are all americans have to defend those opinions? same goes for conspiracy theorys! We arent a club of people who have to agree on all other opinions of members of this club. We arent the vatican.
He is speaking about conspiracy theories in general. I'm not saying someone who believes the 9/11 conspiracy must defend the moon landing conspiracy. Just like a christan doesn't have to defend everything in the bible, but someone arguing that taking the bible literally makes sense, must.
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On February 19 2013 23:34 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 23:09 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 23:02 emythrel wrote:On February 19 2013 21:57 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D That just makes it even more improbable. Many of the people working at NASA had extremely complicated jobs and are expert scientists in their field. You're basically saying that for the conspiracy theory to make any sense, about 50 people together were able to fool all of those experts and simulate the real situation for them, while at the same time making fake footage from the moon and streaming live. It's so improbable that all the arguments against it happening suddenly become miniscule. You get to the point where actually going to the moon is easier than faking it. You don't even need to go down that line of thinking. The astronauts left stuff behind on the moon, they left reflectors that people on earth use to measure the distance to the moon, and we aren't talking about a select few who "say" they have done the experiment. Literally anyone with a good telescope and a powerful enough laser can do the experiment, including myself. A friend of mine works for a university, he once borrowed some equipment and took about 20 of us out in to the sticks and we spent the night bouncing lasers off the reflectors on the moon. Now I'm sure conspiracy theorists will say that the reflectors weren't put there by actual humans but were sent by rocket to help keep the conspiracy covered up, but why would you do that? Thousands of people were involved in going to the moon, the TV signal was relayed from the UK (Jodrell Bank observatory) back to the US when Armstrong landed, so basically you are saying that those people were either involved or tricked. The only problem with that being that Jodrell Bank confirmed the source of the transmission as being from the moon. Even Russia, engaged in the space race against the US and in the midst of the cold war, acknowledged the achievement. If it was good enough for the Russians, its good enough for everyone else. It would be so much easier to actually send people to the Moon, that faking it wouldn't be worth doing. There is no way you could keep it all under wraps, not to mention actually getting to the moon is pretty simple in space travel terms, all you need is a vessel and Newtons equations for gravity and motion. Having spent billions of dollars on a launch vehicle, how can anyone think they sent it up to the moon without any people on board? Why would you do that? I know the OP didn't mention this stuff, but its a pillar of the conspiracy theorist and is the shining light as to why these people are bonkers. I know there are real conspiracies but one so massive as the moon landings or 9/11 being planned by the US government are so bonkers that even bonkers people don't subscribe to them. Sorry for asking but it was always only about the first landing on the moon didnt they left the mirror in a later mission? Its only about Apollo 11 in my opinion becouse USA lost every other race they really wanted to win that one against the russians therefore a motivation was there to fake it. Even when they could have done it but just needed 3 more month they might just fake it in fear the russians would might have a compareable plan on their hands. (wich as far as i know russian goverment wanted the USA make believe) You making it quite too easy for yourself to throw that opinion out of the window from the very beginning. I still believe tehy managed and congratulate the USA to have been the first to put a foot on the moon. Why do we even discuss this here? I'm summing up the entire series of landing in to one thing, having actually studied physics and being a massive NASA fan. Yes it was in later missions they put the reflectors but to say they faked the initial landing and then actually went there later is just as absurd, so simply by acknowledging the fact of the reflectors being there, you have to acknowledge the first landing. The US won the space race, its that simple. The Russians got to many things first but the race was to the moon and the US got there first, one of the things about a race is that it doesn't matter who gets to the half way point first, its about to makes it to the finish first. Basically anyone can create a conspiracy theory, it is as easy as saying "hey did you hear? Obama is a muslim" and look how fast that one caught on. To say we didn't go to the moon is to basically negate the works of thousands of people across the world, not just those who worked for NASA but also the countless others who have worked in multitudes of scientific and engineering field over the last two centuries.
Exacly my point.
On February 19 2013 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 23:34 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 23:31 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 23:09 Chilling5pr33 wrote:
Why do we even discuss this here? Because this is exactly what this topic is about. Picking a mainstream common conspiracy theory and showing how dumb it is might just be the best way to indicate what conspiracy theories are all about. If the OP want to make the case that being a conspiracy theorist makes you smart, he can't just ignore some popular conspiracy theories, he has to deal with them too. I'm not saying that OP believes the moon landing was faked, but if he wants to defend conspiracy theories as a concept, he has to defend that one as well. Nope thats the thing this opinion is plain stupid. If there are stupid christian belives do have all christians defend all those theories? If there are stupid americans are all americans have to defend those opinions? same goes for conspiracy theorys! We arent a club of people who have to agree on all other opinions of members of this club. We arent the vatican. He is speaking about conspiracy theories in general. I'm not saying someone who believes the 9/11 conspiracy must defend the moon landing conspiracy. Just like a christan doesn't have to defend everything in the bible, but someone arguing that taking the bible literally makes sense, must.
Yep i agree.
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On February 19 2013 23:34 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 23:09 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 23:02 emythrel wrote:On February 19 2013 21:57 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D That just makes it even more improbable. Many of the people working at NASA had extremely complicated jobs and are expert scientists in their field. You're basically saying that for the conspiracy theory to make any sense, about 50 people together were able to fool all of those experts and simulate the real situation for them, while at the same time making fake footage from the moon and streaming live. It's so improbable that all the arguments against it happening suddenly become miniscule. You get to the point where actually going to the moon is easier than faking it. You don't even need to go down that line of thinking. The astronauts left stuff behind on the moon, they left reflectors that people on earth use to measure the distance to the moon, and we aren't talking about a select few who "say" they have done the experiment. Literally anyone with a good telescope and a powerful enough laser can do the experiment, including myself. A friend of mine works for a university, he once borrowed some equipment and took about 20 of us out in to the sticks and we spent the night bouncing lasers off the reflectors on the moon. Now I'm sure conspiracy theorists will say that the reflectors weren't put there by actual humans but were sent by rocket to help keep the conspiracy covered up, but why would you do that? Thousands of people were involved in going to the moon, the TV signal was relayed from the UK (Jodrell Bank observatory) back to the US when Armstrong landed, so basically you are saying that those people were either involved or tricked. The only problem with that being that Jodrell Bank confirmed the source of the transmission as being from the moon. Even Russia, engaged in the space race against the US and in the midst of the cold war, acknowledged the achievement. If it was good enough for the Russians, its good enough for everyone else. It would be so much easier to actually send people to the Moon, that faking it wouldn't be worth doing. There is no way you could keep it all under wraps, not to mention actually getting to the moon is pretty simple in space travel terms, all you need is a vessel and Newtons equations for gravity and motion. Having spent billions of dollars on a launch vehicle, how can anyone think they sent it up to the moon without any people on board? Why would you do that? I know the OP didn't mention this stuff, but its a pillar of the conspiracy theorist and is the shining light as to why these people are bonkers. I know there are real conspiracies but one so massive as the moon landings or 9/11 being planned by the US government are so bonkers that even bonkers people don't subscribe to them. Sorry for asking but it was always only about the first landing on the moon didnt they left the mirror in a later mission? Its only about Apollo 11 in my opinion becouse USA lost every other race they really wanted to win that one against the russians therefore a motivation was there to fake it. Even when they could have done it but just needed 3 more month they might just fake it in fear the russians would might have a compareable plan on their hands. (wich as far as i know russian goverment wanted the USA make believe) You making it quite too easy for yourself to throw that opinion out of the window from the very beginning. I still believe tehy managed and congratulate the USA to have been the first to put a foot on the moon. Why do we even discuss this here? I'm summing up the entire series of landing in to one thing, having actually studied physics and being a massive NASA fan. Yes it was in later missions they put the reflectors but to say they faked the initial landing and then actually went there later is just as absurd, so simply by acknowledging the fact of the reflectors being there, you have to acknowledge the first landing. The US won the space race, its that simple. The Russians got to many things first but the race was to the moon and the US got there first, one of the things about a race is that it doesn't matter who gets to the half way point first, its about to makes it to the finish first. Basically anyone can create a conspiracy theory, it is as easy as saying "hey did you hear? Obama is a muslim" and look how fast that one caught on. To say we didn't go to the moon is to basically negate the works of thousands of people across the world, not just those who worked for NASA but also the countless others who have worked in multitudes of scientific and engineering field over the last two centuries.
No, you didn't study physics. You don't even know what physics is. You cant even possibly get into real physics material until you get past graduate school. Sitting in a high school class room or watching a youtube video doesn't constitute studying physics. Studying physics implies you have dedicated your entire life into the field and you have become a renowned expert and are making discoveries in disciplines that only a handful of other people in the world can even comprehend. You have no idea what the life of a physicist is like, and you certainly are not a physicist and you don't know anything about physics.
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On February 19 2013 23:38 tryummm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 23:34 emythrel wrote:On February 19 2013 23:09 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 23:02 emythrel wrote:On February 19 2013 21:57 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:41 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:37 Tobberoth wrote:On February 19 2013 21:12 Chilling5pr33 wrote:On February 19 2013 21:09 Tobberoth wrote:
A conspiracy theorist basically say "I could believe X, or I could believe Y. X if FAR more probable, so I'll believe Y". Which sounds quite irrational IMO. I think it isnt that easy they actually dont think one is more plausible than the other, they think the information leading to that conclusion is false and given knowingly. Of course they don't believe it's more plausible, just like a lot of insane people believe they are perfectly sane. The thing with conspiracy theories is that it doesn't matter if the information is given knowlingly. The fact that the conspiracy would have to be so massive is what makes it so improbable. Check the numbers on the people who have worked for NASA in relation to the moon landings. Now assume that every single one of them is lying about the moon landing, and has kept the secret that it's fake until now. That's all you need to realize how extremely improbable it is that the moon landings were faked, yet conspiracy theorists still believe that, for no apparent reason. Ha yes i believe they could have also tricked them and only the astronauts as well as the studio team know they werent on the moon, ofcourse its impossible all those people would shut down but what if the rocket just orbit earth few weeks and the part of question (the actual landing on the moon) is the part wich is lied about. The people working on it would actually believe everything went like shown in tv but 50 people know otherwise they are choosen becouse they are able to shut up and be quiet and let the rest of nasa/"The World" believe what they want to believe? I know the moon landing is real becouse i checked every data avaible and came to the conclusion they would have made some error on the way. And i dont start searching for them becouse we have those crazy conspiracy heads who would have found something to today as well as russia who has checked the data a 100 times probably ;D That just makes it even more improbable. Many of the people working at NASA had extremely complicated jobs and are expert scientists in their field. You're basically saying that for the conspiracy theory to make any sense, about 50 people together were able to fool all of those experts and simulate the real situation for them, while at the same time making fake footage from the moon and streaming live. It's so improbable that all the arguments against it happening suddenly become miniscule. You get to the point where actually going to the moon is easier than faking it. You don't even need to go down that line of thinking. The astronauts left stuff behind on the moon, they left reflectors that people on earth use to measure the distance to the moon, and we aren't talking about a select few who "say" they have done the experiment. Literally anyone with a good telescope and a powerful enough laser can do the experiment, including myself. A friend of mine works for a university, he once borrowed some equipment and took about 20 of us out in to the sticks and we spent the night bouncing lasers off the reflectors on the moon. Now I'm sure conspiracy theorists will say that the reflectors weren't put there by actual humans but were sent by rocket to help keep the conspiracy covered up, but why would you do that? Thousands of people were involved in going to the moon, the TV signal was relayed from the UK (Jodrell Bank observatory) back to the US when Armstrong landed, so basically you are saying that those people were either involved or tricked. The only problem with that being that Jodrell Bank confirmed the source of the transmission as being from the moon. Even Russia, engaged in the space race against the US and in the midst of the cold war, acknowledged the achievement. If it was good enough for the Russians, its good enough for everyone else. It would be so much easier to actually send people to the Moon, that faking it wouldn't be worth doing. There is no way you could keep it all under wraps, not to mention actually getting to the moon is pretty simple in space travel terms, all you need is a vessel and Newtons equations for gravity and motion. Having spent billions of dollars on a launch vehicle, how can anyone think they sent it up to the moon without any people on board? Why would you do that? I know the OP didn't mention this stuff, but its a pillar of the conspiracy theorist and is the shining light as to why these people are bonkers. I know there are real conspiracies but one so massive as the moon landings or 9/11 being planned by the US government are so bonkers that even bonkers people don't subscribe to them. Sorry for asking but it was always only about the first landing on the moon didnt they left the mirror in a later mission? Its only about Apollo 11 in my opinion becouse USA lost every other race they really wanted to win that one against the russians therefore a motivation was there to fake it. Even when they could have done it but just needed 3 more month they might just fake it in fear the russians would might have a compareable plan on their hands. (wich as far as i know russian goverment wanted the USA make believe) You making it quite too easy for yourself to throw that opinion out of the window from the very beginning. I still believe tehy managed and congratulate the USA to have been the first to put a foot on the moon. Why do we even discuss this here? I'm summing up the entire series of landing in to one thing, having actually studied physics and being a massive NASA fan. Yes it was in later missions they put the reflectors but to say they faked the initial landing and then actually went there later is just as absurd, so simply by acknowledging the fact of the reflectors being there, you have to acknowledge the first landing. The US won the space race, its that simple. The Russians got to many things first but the race was to the moon and the US got there first, one of the things about a race is that it doesn't matter who gets to the half way point first, its about to makes it to the finish first. Basically anyone can create a conspiracy theory, it is as easy as saying "hey did you hear? Obama is a muslim" and look how fast that one caught on. To say we didn't go to the moon is to basically negate the works of thousands of people across the world, not just those who worked for NASA but also the countless others who have worked in multitudes of scientific and engineering field over the last two centuries. No, you didn't study physics. You don't even know what physics is. You cant even possibly get into real physics material until you get past graduate school. Sitting in a high school class room or watching a youtube video doesn't constitute studying physics. Studying physics implies you have dedicated your entire life into the field and you have become a renowned expert and are making discoveries in disciplines that only a handful of other people in the world can even comprehend. You have no idea what the life of a physicist is like, and you certainly are not a physicist and you don't know anything about physics.
I'm pretty sure that if you look up "physics" and "study" in a dictionary, you will see that his post makes perfect sense. You might have your own definitions on what "studying physics" mean, but that doesn't mean you should write condecending posts, it just makes you look like a dumbass.
Hell, I studied physics in elementary school, I still have the grades to prove it, so telling someone, especially someone you don't know, "No, you didn't study physics" is pretty ridiculous.
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I think the average conspiracy theorist gives far too much credit to the creativity and competency of people/nations than they deserve.
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EPT
