Hot_Bid wrote: I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Do you disagree with how we presented the post or our philosophy in general? You seem to take issue with the way we present it, but everything I said in my post about volunteerism and TL is true. You seem to think it is some sort of subtle manipulation or "playing the emotional card" to hypocritically gain more profits, well if you are set on that there is nothing I can really say to dissuade you from that.
The bottom line is there is no deceit here, we don't promise payment or even the a substantial opportunity of future payment. Our writers know that very few make it to fulltime employment within ESPORTS. They simply enjoy doing what they do, and find reasons that are rewarding outside of money.
What I disagree with is the demagogy used as justification of the situation. When people started mentioning the unpaid part, you could have simply responded with "Sorry, but we cannot pay a salary to these new writers" and that's it. It may be a bit cold, but it is a clean way to do it because it is a fact. However you decided to add those things about how other writers write for free as well and how they do it out of love and passion and whatnot. You may or may not have done that purposefully, but either way I now have to take into consideration that there is a chance it was done with said manipulation in mind. The effect you've achieved is now worse than if you simply chose to avoid answering why the writers will not get paid. I am fully aware that these actions will not bite you in the behind because people love thinking with their hearts and they love TL and want to help, I'm just giving you an objective view of the situation.
Hot_Bid wrote: You're comparing us to some sort of organized religion that exploits its members, laughing at people and saying "how can you work for free!??!"
I'm not sure I understood this correctly. I didn't say you laugh at people, I mentioned the organized religions because of how they count on the emotional in people for their money/time. What you said about how people who volunteer for TL do that out of love and passion for TL, it just reminded me of it. Imagine a "help repaint your church" kind of situation.
Hot_Bid wrote: Why do artists paint and writers without the end goal of selling their product? Why do people make fan videos? Not everything is driven by money.
Research has shown that some of the greatest inventions in history were driven purely by passion and not the desire to make money off of them. I completely agree with you on that one. However, what you want here is free quality content for your for-profit website. When they publish an article on TL, from then on it belongs to TL, not to them. If you are not willing or able to pay them salaries but still appropriate their work, then some drastic changes are required to point 6, paragraph 1 of your Terms Of Use in order for it to be at least somewhat fair for the said writers.
Hot_Bid wrote: What you are suggesting is that there exists a model where people can be paid wages to write about ESPORTS but TL chooses not to because we're attempting to cut costs and make more profits. Unfortunately there is nothing more I can say about this accusation other than it's not true.
I wasn't talking about that when I mentioned "business model", but when you now mention that, a model which you just described certainly could exist. Without making the company's business model and finances public, we, the public, can not know either way. Oh and, please, don't say that you don't want to cut costs as much as you can and make profits as much as you can because that would be an outright lie.
Hot_Bid wrote: You also seem to think this will somehow be the downfall of our website and you won't "cry when we're gone" well we'll simply just disagree on that.
No, I actually don't think at all that this is the downfall, I'm just saying that if you can't make a business model that works to a 100%, then you should switch to a Wikipedia style non-profit model because this "half this half that" is in a gray area and there will always be doubts while it is so.
On January 10 2013 01:46 Luftmensch wrote: I do appreciate that TL exists, don't get me wrong. However, given the fact that you yourselves have chosen the for-profit route (and questionable demagogy to boot), in my mind you are a business like any other. If your business model isn't able to create a sustainable financial environment, that is entirely your problem and I won't cry when you are gone.
And no one will cry when you're gone.
Well I do have family and friends, this offensive post is quite silly.
On January 10 2013 01:46 Luftmensch wrote: I do appreciate that TL exists, don't get me wrong. However, given the fact that you yourselves have chosen the for-profit route (and questionable demagogy to boot), in my mind you are a business like any other. If your business model isn't able to create a sustainable financial environment, that is entirely your problem and I won't cry when you are gone.
And no one will cry when you're gone.
Well I do have family and friends, this offensive post is quite silly.
He meant gone from TL, not from life or something harsh like that. Just clarifying.
On January 10 2013 03:19 The_Darkness wrote: What are you angry about?
I'm honestly more sad than angry. I am an opponent of volunteerism in a capitalistic society but what struck a nerve so that I had to say something, I already wrote in my first post. There are ideological reasons to why I oppose volunteerism in capitalism but this isn't the place to discuss them.
On January 10 2013 03:47 Falling wrote: Meh. I had a big argument, but it's not worth it.
TL is a community not an outsider venture capitalist company that has a 'genius' business plan to harness free labour. Things get done because people in the community are interested and passionate about furthering the community and if 'volunteerism' seems odious, then this is not for you.
In my opinion, we cannot yet pay enough of the actual people competing, so then why would there magically be all this cash lying around for people to write about said competitors? We are fortunate that a couple people get paid, but it seems people are taking that for granted. No doubt 95% of what happens on TL, happens because of volunteers.
Then just ditch the for-profit model, embrace the Wikipedia-like style non-profit model and I'll be a happy camper.
Except they are both owned by the same company and expecting people who complain about paying $20 for a weekend of high level Starcraft 2 to donate is not going to happen.
Not sure whether I'd be efficient/prolific enough, or even good enough for the position in the first place. Might apply though, will have to see after exams or so. Wish there were more editorial positions available since I'm actually a decent editor (or so I like to think). Editorship implies holistic knowledge, however, which I may not have with regard to the entire scene. Still definitely intrigued, though.
On January 10 2013 03:59 kollin wrote: Sorry, just thought of another question, sorry for not having them in a single post. Is it OK if I do a preview of the group E of the up and downs and send it in after the up and downs have been played. I only ask because I'm not sure if I can do that and a recap by tomorrow essentially, and while I'll do my best I'd rather not take any chances.
This recruitment is open until January 31st, so you don't have to finish it by tomorrow.
Taking into consideration that all foreseeable positions are occupied by January 31st, is there still a chance to apply afterwards outside of this recruitment drive?
On January 10 2013 04:16 Roffles wrote: I think it's sad that people are even complaining about shit like this being unpaid. I never imagined a day that people would demand to be paid for a writer spot or a spot on Liquipedia.
Maybe I never imagined it as such when I actually cared. I always wanted to help out simply because I enjoyed it. Twas a hobby and a passion to do what I can to share eSports with others. Now I understand that this has gotten bigger, but it still puts a on my face.
So was I, and not only a writer, but also the head of WGTour's ladder, an editor, a translator. I helped out in many tournaments, organized a few myself and co-ran a freakishly successful team. 16-hour work days were not a rare occurance. All that for years, all that for free, fueled only by my immense passion for the game and my love for the people who gathered around it; our starcraft community, *my* community. That said, however, time's are changing. TL.net (both the site and the team) is a for-profit venture, it's as simple as that. If it relies so heavily on volunteer work than its business model needs to be changed. TL.net does look for new ways of monetizing the community, albeit not as aggressively as it could have, and rightly so (the so-called liquid "documentary" was followed by a plead for donations, the english proleague 720p cast is subscription based, the TSL+ was a monetizing effort, as well). A model completely relying on volunteer work was a must in the past, because nobody was getting anything. A for-profit organization relying on the same model just looks wrong, at least in my book.
With the immense growth of esports came change, yes, but it's not limited to the community, to the mentality of people - it struck everyone the same, our beloved tl.net included.
On January 10 2013 03:47 Falling wrote: Meh. I had a big argument, but it's not worth it.
TL is a community not an outsider venture capitalist company that has a 'genius' business plan to harness free labour. Things get done because people in the community are interested and passionate about furthering the community and if 'volunteerism' seems odious, then this is not for you.
It's still a community site, but the method and goal of running the site has changed since this site started. I didn't follow bw or this site before SC 2, so I don't feel the same nostalgic feel everyone else has about volunteer work back in the day. What I do know is one of the first articles I read on this site (I can't find it right now) shortly after SC 2 launched was that their philosophy behind running this site was changing from a non-profit site to a for profit site. Was a big article by Nazgul I believe. I can't remember it all since it was over 2 years ago.
I'm not saying it's wrong for TL to use all the volunteers wanting to work for free in esports as I've said it's smart of them to do so and regular for profit businesses would jump at the chance to have a volunteer work force as well. TL is using the conditions of their industry to their advantage and I can't fault them for that.
You also have to understand that TL is a business just like any other company now. They currently have a monopoly on this type of site and it's basically impossible for any other site to compete with TL now as it's too entrenched into the Startcraft scene. Wellplayed tried and failed and I remember reading one of their frustrations was that TL would never feature any of their events on their calendar because obviously, they were a competing site. TL is just as cut throat as any other business trying to protect their domain and I just feel some people forget that fact and still feel TL is run the same as it was when it was non profit site.
Do I believe the site makes as much as others claim? Probably not, but I also don't believe it makes as little as people like hot bid claim.
On January 10 2013 03:47 Falling wrote: Meh. I had a big argument, but it's not worth it.
TL is a community not an outsider venture capitalist company that has a 'genius' business plan to harness free labour. Things get done because people in the community are interested and passionate about furthering the community and if 'volunteerism' seems odious, then this is not for you.
In my opinion, we cannot yet pay enough of the actual people competing, so then why would there magically be all this cash lying around for people to write about said competitors? We are fortunate that a couple people get paid, but it seems people are taking that for granted. No doubt 95% of what happens on TL, happens because of volunteers.
Then just ditch the for-profit model, embrace the Wikipedia-like style non-profit model and I'll be a happy camper.
so ask everyone for donations non stop rather than running a for profit? fuck that. its annoying a s fuck seeing those donation banners on wikipedia. i'd much rather see ads.
I will try to apply, paid or not, I just will write for my passions and love for the game, not things like money. Think of this as volunteering almost, a beneficial act for the community that is done more for one's passion for the act, rather than financial motivations.
Hot_Bid wrote: I really don't understand what you are trying to say. Do you disagree with how we presented the post or our philosophy in general? You seem to take issue with the way we present it, but everything I said in my post about volunteerism and TL is true. You seem to think it is some sort of subtle manipulation or "playing the emotional card" to hypocritically gain more profits, well if you are set on that there is nothing I can really say to dissuade you from that.
The bottom line is there is no deceit here, we don't promise payment or even the a substantial opportunity of future payment. Our writers know that very few make it to fulltime employment within ESPORTS. They simply enjoy doing what they do, and find reasons that are rewarding outside of money.
What I disagree with is the demagogy used as justification of the situation. When people started mentioning the unpaid part, you could have simply responded with "Sorry, but we cannot pay a salary to these new writers" and that's it. It may be a bit cold, but it is a clean way to do it because it is a fact. However you decided to add those things about how other writers write for free as well and how they do it out of love and passion and whatnot. You may or may not have done that purposefully, but either way I now have to take into consideration that there is a chance it was done with said manipulation in mind. The effect you've achieved is now worse than if you simply chose to avoid answering why the writers will not get paid. I am fully aware that these actions will not bite you in the behind because people love thinking with their hearts and they love TL and want to help, I'm just giving you an objective view of the situation.
We have always been honest and upfront about these kinds of things with community members, and this is no different. We simply don't care that some people may feel there is a chance that it's emotional manipulation. All the stuff we wrote about motivations and all that is true, and partially in response to users asking "why would people do this for no pay?" Frankly, just because you feel it its the "cleaner" way to remove all doubt about possible manipulation doesn't mean we're going to sacrifice openness and communication with our potential contributors. You can either believe us or not.
Hot_Bid wrote: You're comparing us to some sort of organized religion that exploits its members, laughing at people and saying "how can you work for free!??!"
I'm not sure I understood this correctly. I didn't say you laugh at people, I mentioned the organized religions because of how they count on the emotional in people for their money/time. What you said about how people who volunteer for TL do that out of love and passion for TL, it just reminded me of it. Imagine a "help repaint your church" kind of situation.
I only brought this up because organized religion has all sorts of issues that we don't typically deal with, especially in the United States. We don't ask for donations, we're not tax exempt, we don't expect our contributors to pray for TL. The fact that I have to list differences here for you is really silly, since the analogy you made in the first place comparing us to a religion is just unreasonable and frankly kind of insulting.
Hot_Bid wrote: Why do artists paint and writers without the end goal of selling their product? Why do people make fan videos? Not everything is driven by money.
Research has shown that some of the greatest inventions in history were driven purely by passion and not the desire to make money off of them. I completely agree with you on that one. However, what you want here is free quality content for your for-profit website. When they publish an article on TL, from then on it belongs to TL, not to them. If you are not willing or able to pay them salaries but still appropriate their work, then some drastic changes are required to point 6, paragraph 1 of your Terms Of Use in order for it to be at least somewhat fair for the said writers.
What makes something fair and not fair? I'm not going to get into a debate on why TL needs to own the content that we put out on our front page, because the implications are obvious there. It seems again you are very hung up on the fact that there is no monetary compensation, when in fact there is plenty of intangible non-monetary gains and rewards that our writers feel make it worth it for themselves. I posted some of these earlier, but you again said that it was manipulative to state what these possibly could be. You seem to believe that money is the only form of compensation, it is not.
Hot_Bid wrote: What you are suggesting is that there exists a model where people can be paid wages to write about ESPORTS but TL chooses not to because we're attempting to cut costs and make more profits. Unfortunately there is nothing more I can say about this accusation other than it's not true.
I wasn't talking about that when I mentioned "business model", but when you now mention that, a model which you just described certainly could exist. Without making the company's business model and finances public, we, the public, can not know either way. Oh and, please, don't say that you don't want to cut costs as much as you can and make profits as much as you can because that would be an outright lie.
The model I described obviously could exist but doesn't. Will it exist in the future? Maybe. I was responding to your accusation that the model exists and is viable right now but TL doesn't do it because we want to hoard money. That is what I said was not true, not that in general we want to keep costs down.
Hot_Bid wrote: You also seem to think this will somehow be the downfall of our website and you won't "cry when we're gone" well we'll simply just disagree on that.
No, I actually don't think at all that this is the downfall, I'm just saying that if you can't make a business model that works to a 100%, then you should switch to a Wikipedia style non-profit model because this "half this half that" is in a gray area and there will always be doubts while it is so.
First, you seem to believe that just because our volunteers aren't paid means our business model "doesn't work." Do you feel other for-profit enterprises that have volunteers don't have business models that work? Volunteer work is pretty common in even mainstream sports, for example NFL cheerleaders receive virtually nominal pay ($100 a game or something) for essentially another fulltime job. Why do they do it? There are intangible nonmonetary benefits, personal and otherwise. Just like here. Many sports writers employed fulltime by sports teams are unpaid internships. Is it because the Yankees are manipulating their ballboys to accept lower than minimum wage? I don't believe so.
Second, you make it sound so easy to just "be" Wikipedia, a site with over 35 million users and 2.7 billion monthly pageviews. Let's not enter into a debate about whether a yearly donation drive asking for handouts from an audience that is notoriously made up of young frugal college students who already pay for content across a lot of other ESPORTS channels is wise or not. I would say "we need your donations to survive!!!" from our audience demographic is far more ethically dubious than asking for volunteer writers who know exactly what they're getting into.
Lastly, I would argue that allowing non-monetary contributions like writing and liquipedia editing is far more rewarding and mutually beneficial for people that want to contribute to TL than strictly donating money to us. If you notice, we don't ask for $ donations anywhere on this site, unlike the churches you seem to compare us to.
People will contribute to TL for free because they believe in what TL does. TL contributors know that there are some people that have paid positions at TL and some others that have ownership interests, and yet they still will contribute for free to TL because they believe in what TL does--no one is being exploited here.
Another model is EG's--they pay lots of people to do lots of things. Yet their web community presence is nothing compared to TL's. They work a different model and it works for them.
I am a highly educated and busy professional with tons of responsibilities and yet I am tempted to apply for these positions for the opportunity to give back to the scene and to do interesting work. I understand that I would be giving away content that could potentially used to profit myself--the trade off is that if I write for TL, thousands more people will immediately read it than if I try to make my own website.
Finally--TL writers make great content, but there are tons of grammatical and typographical errors that come with most of their posts. These would not be tolerated if TL had a highly paid writing and editing staff. TL gets what it pays for--if TL paid some writers, it could demand more professionalism. It relies on volunteers so, while it gets an admirable amount of well-produced and passionately driven content, it do not get the benefit of the accountability that a paid position would entail. I imagine that one reason TL is looking for an undetermined amount of volunteers rather than one or two full-time writers is that it has to deal with people suddenly flaking on projects, having scheduling conflicts, and all the other things that come with trying to get unpaid work from people. Hell, my business makes use of unpaid interns frequently--we don't expect much out of them, and only rarely do they produce usable work.
TL is a great example of synergy between a business and its customer-base/community. Nobody is being enslaved or fooled or exploited. Anyone smart enough to be picked as a TL writer is smart enough to understand the implications of being an unpaid worker.
...I should have spent this time doing my RL job, but instead I wrote, for free, about something I believed in. TL sure has me brainwashed ^____^
Finally--TL writers make great content, but there are tons of grammatical and typographical errors that come with most of their posts. These would not be tolerated if TL had a highly paid writing and editing staff. TL gets what it pays for--if TL paid some writers, it could demand more professionalism. It relies on volunteers so, while it gets an admirable amount of well-produced and passionately driven content, it do not get the benefit of the accountability that a paid position would entail. I imagine that one reason TL is looking for an undetermined amount of volunteers rather than one or two full-time writers is that it has to deal with people suddenly flaking on projects, having scheduling conflicts, and all the other things that come with trying to get unpaid work from people. Hell, my business makes use of unpaid interns frequently--we don't expect much out of them, and only rarely do they produce usable work.
I disagree with this sentiment rather strongly, as the grammar nazi within me searches through TL published material for errors like a Zerg player hunts down proxy pylons, and I rarely run into glaring errors. Small tense issues and the occasional implementation of unclear language pop up from time to time, but to suggest that TL published material is definitively "lower quality" is utter nonsense.
I completely agree with what Hot_Bid is saying here. The thing about writers getting compensation through means other than money is completely true. Here is a list of some of the rewards that I enjoy the most:
-Lifetime friends made on TL staff, and even just in the community with normal users. -Work experience doing something I really enjoy, and want to get better at. -Great thing to tell people if you are looking for other jobs in esports. -thousands of views on each article with many posts in response. Most of these posts are praising our work, which feels good. -Giving back to a community that helped shape my life(no joke, BW/SC2/dota has taken up most of my life). -Huge increase in E-Peen measurement(Just kidding)
These are just a few of the rewards btw. Some staff get great opportunities from time-to-time as well. An example would be monk going to China to cover wcs. He got a 5 star hotel, free tickets, backstage passes, was allowed to interview high profile pros and scene figureheads,etcetc. Most of the time TL staff get VIP passes when going to tournaments, and that is definitely a reward.
Finally--TL writers make great content, but there are tons of grammatical and typographical errors that come with most of their posts. These would not be tolerated if TL had a highly paid writing and editing staff. TL gets what it pays for--if TL paid some writers, it could demand more professionalism. It relies on volunteers so, while it gets an admirable amount of well-produced and passionately driven content, it do not get the benefit of the accountability that a paid position would entail. I imagine that one reason TL is looking for an undetermined amount of volunteers rather than one or two full-time writers is that it has to deal with people suddenly flaking on projects, having scheduling conflicts, and all the other things that come with trying to get unpaid work from people. Hell, my business makes use of unpaid interns frequently--we don't expect much out of them, and only rarely do they produce usable work.
I disagree with this sentiment rather strongly, as the grammar nazi within me searches through TL published material for errors like a Zerg player hunts down proxy pylons, and I rarely run into glaring errors. Small tense issues and the occasional implementation of unclear language pop up from time to time, but to suggest that TL published material is definitively "lower quality" is utter nonsense.
Yeah, especially the sc2 articles. These are near pristine from what I can tell. I will admit we have had a few problems with some Dota 2 articles, but this is due to only having one full time editor. With the recent move of me to doing more editing than writing, and a few others who are now editing, the articles should be near perfect as well.
EPT
on my face.
